Discuss Demandred

[Erunion]

It's possible that Demandred is in Shara. Also possible that he is in the Land of Madmen. I don't think he's in Murandy, as he'd be able to raise at most 100k troops there, probably closer to 50k. I expect Demandred to storm in with an army to rival the Aiel (so 400k+ or tons of channelers). If that is correct, his possible locations are (in order of likelihood):

Shara

Parallel world (One advantage of this is that Demandred could be in both a parallel world and any of these other locations, if that world's time flows differently)

Land of Madmen

Seanchan

Black Tower (but moving around a lot)

The Blight

Murandy (not really likely, unless he's doing a ton of multitasking.)

[r2debo]

Remember the Dark Prophecy about the Wolf dying by the Towers of Midnight? Demandred could be in charge of Seanchan like many people believer and somehow capture Perrin and bring he and his army into his stronghold where they will fight.

 

BTW, why was the book named Towers of Midnight except for the significance of Perrin dying there at the end, as predicted by the Dark Prophecies?

[Erunion]

A reference to Eggy's dream perhaps? (This dream showed the Forsaken as towers of midnight, so the title could be talking about the Forsaken.)

[Lisa Campbell]

Could Demandred be one of the Commanders of the Taraboner forces Rodel temporarily allied with? They had quite an army. He could have gone along with Rodel because it was sowing chaos in the area, then pulled the Taraboners out when he realised Rodel's capabilities and hoped the Seanchan would wipe him out?

[lhsmommy]

It has always been my thought that ORIGINALY RJ intended Taim to be Demandred. -ducks all incoming HE ISN'T- However, all us original readers figured it out so darn quickly, he reversed gears and decided to recast him. In foh and loc the evidence is almost irrefutable. But we know he isn't so we have to move on.

 

Now, I truly am not worried about who he is. The suspense has been drawn out so long that unless he is revealed to be Min, Caddy or Obama I will be unimpressed. I think he will have a good role, but whoever he is will be anticlimactic.

 

Jen-

[didymos]

Murandy has always been strong, just disorganized...else why hasn't Caemlyn absorbed it after all those years.

 

Why did the Two Rivers go generations without seeing a tax collector or single Guardsman, despite actually being part of Andor?

[gumburcules]

My two cents: The most likely place for Demandred is, as mentioned previously, Seanchan. He was linked with semirhage, who was not in charge over there, she impersonated a lesser role than a ruler (voice or whatever) and the mess they created in assinating the empress would best be capitilised by having someone like Demandred in charge to take advantage. This makes sense becuase that way you automatically get a huge army that can TRAVEl, which shadowspawn cannot. Demandred mentions his rule being secure now, which common sense dictates that it was not beforehand at all and as it was mentioned in a few of the novels, a new ruler has set themselves up in Seandar. The fact that in ToM that an open murderer was in charge indicates that this murderer was the murderer of the empress, which it looks like Semirhage played a direct role in and who is one of her closest allies? Demandred. Plus it looks like somesort of channeler would have to do the killing due to that enormous ter'angreal that the Seanchan throne is. I think the Murandy theory doesn't hold water due to the smallness of that country,which would not strump Demandred's ego up enough, whereas an entire empire,not just a kingdom, would.

Two other things that probably belong elsewhere:

Regarding the wolf prophecy and being broken on the Towers of midnight...the Broken wolf could refer to the death of Slayer. Slayer refered to himself as wolf hunting a stag in ToM...he has known 'Death' as 'both did die but both did live'. So the Darkside prophecies may have a different meaning then what Grandael thought.....plus it refers to the last days of the Blacksmiths pride.....which did indeed happen when he gave himslef up to the burdens of the leadership after what seems like 50000 pages.

 

I wonder if the callandor prophecy refers to min, elayne and aviendha becoming one, which indeed would be a weird thing if Aviendha gets pregnant with regards to the 4 babies at one thing, but something being off...maybe Ilyena is a soul in three parts or something...

[Moghedian]

In the Black Tower chapter in ToM, Androl mentions two new members of the Tower (Taim's favourites) who have become very powerful very quickly. It's unlikely that Demandred would act as someone who has to take orders from someone else, but still possible...

[WilliamAndrewPotter]

Paitir, King of Arafel; no question about it.

 

that bull-crap about a prophesy his house had? BS. No no... don't you see what happened there? It was PAITIR who stripped the boarderlands of their lords and armys. It was PAITIR who convinced those same rulers to physically assault the dragon. It was likely Paitir who brought them to Far Madding.

 

Remember, the guardian stops neither the "true power" nor something woven from a well, it would be simple to weave an illusion with either, and tie it off once inside the guardian.

 

Throw in the fact that the person rand is asked about is a tie between Demandred and LTT? No... that whole scene was designed to kill an unhinged Rand, or at least permanently aligning the borderlands against him. It was also designed to prove to Demandred that Rand was LTT reborn. He heard about it, but no matter how furious he is at LTT, i doubt he would pass up the chance to learn personally how much of LTT existed still before he vented his wrath upon him. No matter how rand reacted to the question Demandred wins.

 

That whole scene set off alarm bells. i don't think there can be any question he's Demandred.

[Thorum]

Darlin, King of Tear, is Demandred.

 

Assuming you're serious, not so much. Min has viewed him. All she saw was that he would be King of Tear, marry Caraline Damodred, and die in bed leaving her as his widow.

 

And even more: He has been seen.

 

From Encyclopaedia-WOT (TDR Chapter 54):

Mat POV - Mat fights a man who identifies himself as High Lord Darlin while Juilin guards his back. He is an excellent fighter, but Mat finally knocks him out. He sees Rand trot across the corridor and doubts his eyes. Mat shoulders his quarterstaff and knocks out another High Lord who was preparing to skewer him from behind. They continue to hunt for the way to the dungeons.

 

 

[dwn]

Paitir, King of Arafel; no question about it.

 

that bull-crap about a prophesy his house had? BS. No no... don't you see what happened there? It was PAITIR who stripped the boarderlands of their lords and armys. It was PAITIR who convinced those same rulers to physically assault the dragon. It was likely Paitir who brought them to Far Madding.

 

Remember, the guardian stops neither the "true power" nor something woven from a well, it would be simple to weave an illusion with either, and tie it off once inside the guardian.

 

Throw in the fact that the person rand is asked about is a tie between Demandred and LTT? No... that whole scene was designed to kill an unhinged Rand, or at least permanently aligning the borderlands against him. It was also designed to prove to Demandred that Rand was LTT reborn. He heard about it, but no matter how furious he is at LTT, i doubt he would pass up the chance to learn personally how much of LTT existed still before he vented his wrath upon him. No matter how rand reacted to the question Demandred wins.

 

That whole scene set off alarm bells. i don't think there can be any question he's Demandred.

 

Like Darlin, Paitir was seen before TGS, which precludes him from being Demandred.

 

-- dwn

[WilliamAndrewPotter]

Paitir, King of Arafel; no question about it.

 

that bull-crap about a prophesy his house had? BS. No no... don't you see what happened there? It was PAITIR who stripped the boarderlands of their lords and armys. It was PAITIR who convinced those same rulers to physically assault the dragon. It was likely Paitir who brought them to Far Madding.

 

Remember, the guardian stops neither the "true power" nor something woven from a well, it would be simple to weave an illusion with either, and tie it off once inside the guardian.

 

Throw in the fact that the person rand is asked about is a tie between Demandred and LTT? No... that whole scene was designed to kill an unhinged Rand, or at least permanently aligning the borderlands against him. It was also designed to prove to Demandred that Rand was LTT reborn. He heard about it, but no matter how furious he is at LTT, i doubt he would pass up the chance to learn personally how much of LTT existed still before he vented his wrath upon him. No matter how rand reacted to the question Demandred wins.

 

That whole scene set off alarm bells. i don't think there can be any question he's Demandred.

 

Like Darlin, Paitir was seen before TGS, which precludes him from being Demandred.

 

-- dwn

 

Take it back a step, lets say its someone in Paitir's shadow at least. again that whole scene was so fishy if paitir wasn't demandred, then he was compelled by him or controlled by him.

[Adamdidit]

Hello everyone.

 

When exactly did we actually see Paitr before TDR? Curios.

 

I kind of favor the Seanchan theory. Before his job was sowing chaos, which fit in with splitting the Seanchan empire into the homeland and the return. If he was working with Semrihage, which is entirely possible, then it would make sense for each to take a part and work their own chaos. Then he kills the royal family and takes over.

[Corvinus]

I see that a lot of people are frustrated with Demandred as a character, and everyone is hoping that he will do something truly awesome, demonic, epic etc. to redeem himself with us.

Well here is my idea of what he could do. Known to be the Shadow's best general, and a gambler, he could/should attack the armies at the Field of Merrilor with a combined force of Trollocs, channelers from the BT and Black Ajah, and maybe armies of men from wherever he is. That way you will have Demandred directly against Rand (LTT memories) and all the Great Captains (Bryne being with Egwene, the rest probably with Rand). The battle would be insane, the Forces of the Light severely weakened before Rand can even go to Shayol Ghul; his attack will be thrown back but only with the combined effort of all the armies. Rand cannot pursue him because he has to go save the world, and Caemlyn, and deal with the BT, and the Seanchen, so he sends either Perrin or Mat. Hopefully Mat, who then faces Demandred on the battlefield, completely outmaneuvers him every time (like Hawkwing did with Guiare Amalasan) and then kills him.

If Perrin goes after Demandred, Perrin might die. I only say this because Shaidar Haran denied Graendal another opportunity to kill Perrin saying that task had been given to another, and I've been wondering who it would be.

[Sabio]

Hello everyone.

 

When exactly did we actually see Paitr before TDR? Curios.

 

I kind of favor the Seanchan theory. Before his job was sowing chaos, which fit in with splitting the Seanchan empire into the homeland and the return. If he was working with Semrihage, which is entirely possible, then it would make sense for each to take a part and work their own chaos. Then he kills the royal family and takes over.

 

Pretty Sure Semrihage killed the royal family. Being the chaos Seanchan is in right now, Demandred wouldn't have time to unite it again into a effective fighting force since its in a massive civil war. The point was to take the homeland out of the war. Just becuase someone rules the capital doesn't mean they have the whole country in their pocket yet.

 

Since I think Demandred is the King of Murandy it is possible he might show up with an army and try something at the meeting.

 

And keeping an eye on Rand doesn't have to mean he is with Rand or doing it directly. Remember Rand had at least 2 BA with him and Weirmon was a DF who was always showing up where Rand didn't want him. Those were certainly reporting to someone.

[bysomy]

Demandred would just have to compell the leaders of the other factions to submit to him. Since the Seanchan basicly do whatever their supperior tells them, he has a united Seanchan pretty quick. He could either have a black ajah or a damane from the mainland teach the Seanchan damane to travel, and then he just pops up some where with a huge army.

[didymos]

Demandred would just have to compell the leaders of the other factions to submit to him. Since the Seanchan basicly do whatever their supperior tells them, he has a united Seanchan pretty quick.

 

Uh-huh. So then why haven't all those Seanchan submitted to the highest ranking person taking part in the civil war? Why do they have a whole system of law and punishments if everyone just does what they're told? Why would Tuon ever worry about lower-ranked folk trying to take her out? Etc., etc., ad nauseum.

[bysomy]

All the people in the civil war are the same rank because the royal family got wiped out. I meant in terms of warfare, not everyday life.

[haloun]

i dont quite understand why everyone is convinced he is in murandy. the country is too small for demandred to worry about, and has no real ties to anything, the paitir comment was interesting and makes a little sense, but the most likely and logical to me is shara, no one knows anything about shara, it would be all too easy for demandred to take over the place, and it has been foreshadowed since almost the first of the series. we keep hearing about shara, but not seeing anyting, we keep hearing about demandred but not seeing him. it all fits, and then you have the invaders of seanchan destroying everything as they go, the blood red sails match the blood red veils of the "aiel" but people in randland know so little about shara, and jain farstrider is now dead and so cannot identify anyone it makes a lot of sense to me that demandred would have shara.

[Sharaman]

Murandy makes sense because of several things.

One is, the king has apparently become a much more capable player.

Two, he has mysteriously not appeared onstage despite being mentioned many times - and that fits various statements about Demandred.

The third point is that Murandy is ideally placed to hit any kingdom in the Westlands.

It's more or less bang in the centre, and well connected to the other Kingdoms.

How many men are in the Murandy army is irrelevant if there are Way gates / portal stones where trollocs can be brought in, in vast numbers.

[didymos]

How many men are in the Murandy army is irrelevant if there are Way gates / portal stones where trollocs can be brought in, in vast numbers.

 

Actually, that's a good point. Everyone just assumes that "My rule is secure" and "I gather for war" refer to the same thing: control of a nation. It may be the nation was brought under control for reasons other than troop strength. Maybe Murandy is now just considered a giant supply dump for the Shadow.

[Erunion]

He could be in Murandy, but if he is, he's playing a much wider game, probably involving portal stones.

[matttoller]

Taim seems to be SO much like Demandred that I've often wondered if RJ was playing a semantic game with us. Could it be that Demandred is posing as Mazrim Taim and the real Taim that was captured by the Aes Sedai is either dead or being held captive somewhere. Taim's first actual appearance in the books was after he escaped from Aes Sedai control and the only person we've met in the books who should know what Taim really looks like is Bashere. If Bashere is a Darkfriend working for Demandred, he certainly would not give him away. In this case, Taim is not ACTUALLY Demandred becuase Taim is still Taim, he is just not who we've understood to be Mazrim Taim for the majority of the series. It seems like a very RJ-like twist to me.

[didymos]

Taim seems to be SO much like Demandred that I've often wondered if RJ was playing a semantic game with us. Could it be that Demandred is posing as Mazrim Taim and the real Taim that was captured by the Aes Sedai is either dead or being held captive somewhere.

 

NO DAMMIT!

 

 

Sorry. No, he is not:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003-April 2004

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you.

 

 

We've also been told that if he does have an alter ego, it had never appeared as of KoD. Taim is ruled out on that basis too.

[Adamdidit]

Why are we so certain that Semi killed the Seanchan royals? There's no explicit point of it that I recall.