Discuss Egwene

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

he oaths of fealty sworn by Egwene's cabal were coerced, which may still be distasteful, but they were oaths of support, not obedience

 

Not really.

 

This is the oath Theodrin swore to Egwene:

"Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I, Theodrin Dabei, swear fealty to you, Egwene al'Vere, to faithfully serve and obey on pain of my life and honor."

 

We don't know the exact wording of Nisao's oath, which Egwene blackmailed her into, but we know that it was even stronger:

"Beneath the Light and by my hope of rebirth and salvation. ..." Not the same wording as Faolain and Theodrin, but every scrap as strong. More. By the Three Oaths, no Aes Sedai could speak a vow she did not mean.

 

Even without the First Oath, those are the type of oaths people in Randland keep at all costs except if they are Darkfriends.

 

So it's the height of hypocrisy from Egwene to be indignant at Elaida and the BA hunters when she had done what amount for the same thing earlier. But this is typical Egwene - hypocrite to the core.

 

Not true.

 

Theodrin and Faolain - They swore this oath willingly.

 

Myrelle and Nisao - They were given a CHOICE to swear the oath. The other option was to reveal that Myrelle had bonded Lan illegally and Nisao knew about it and kept it secret. Myrelle and Nisao could have chosen the other option.

 

The Sitters however, FORCED the oath into the ferrets. Not only that, they FORCED them to swear those oaths on the OATH ROD.

[Graveyardhag]

Can I just say how much I dislike when a discussion about one character start shifting towards the lines of "Yes, this was bad from him/her, but character X did worse". This is neither relevant, nor a valid excuse. Seems like most of the arguemts the Egwene come up in this thread are "Yesm but Rand did the same" instead of arguing the real point.

 

Egwene has done her bit. In the very same hall meeting where the hall votes to remove the Amyrlins power over the WT army, and leave her to the political side of things, she informs the hall that the borderlands are being overun. The hall is now in power of the army, Egwene has informed them that the borderlands are in trouble. Job Done.

Are you kidding me? The Tower Guard is just a minor fraction of the Aes Sedai's military strength. Their main force are the sisters themselves, and she hasn't given over control of them. True, she would've need to work out some agreement with the Hall, but she didn't even try. The Borderlanders were the last thing on her mind, she was too busy with her other plans. Why should she care people are getting eaten by Trollocs while the Aes Sedai are sittin in their tower playing petty politics...

 

 

Nope, not kidding. I just re-read this bit, the exact wording is "Take over prosecution of the war" They then go on to say that this includes the Tower Guard and Gareth Byrne's army. "Prosecution of the war" means that any and all things having to do with the war is now in the hands of the Sitters. Egwene has nothing to do with it. She learns of the borderlands immediately before this meeting, and after the agreement for the hall to take over, she informs them of the borderlands being overrun. What happens now is now in the Halls power.

As to the rest of your post, I addressed that in my original one. If she try's now, to address the hall about the war or anything to do with it, they will most likely oppose her for stupid reasons, and then it's practically guaranteed that no help will be had from them.

[David Selig]

he oaths of fealty sworn by Egwene's cabal were coerced, which may still be distasteful, but they were oaths of support, not obedience

 

Not really.

 

This is the oath Theodrin swore to Egwene:

"Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I, Theodrin Dabei, swear fealty to you, Egwene al'Vere, to faithfully serve and obey on pain of my life and honor."

 

We don't know the exact wording of Nisao's oath, which Egwene blackmailed her into, but we know that it was even stronger:

"Beneath the Light and by my hope of rebirth and salvation. ..." Not the same wording as Faolain and Theodrin, but every scrap as strong. More. By the Three Oaths, no Aes Sedai could speak a vow she did not mean.

 

Even without the First Oath, those are the type of oaths people in Randland keep at all costs except if they are Darkfriends.

 

So it's the height of hypocrisy from Egwene to be indignant at Elaida and the BA hunters when she had done what amount for the same thing earlier. But this is typical Egwene - hypocrite to the core.

 

Not true.

 

Theodrin and Faolain - They swore this oath willingly.

 

Myrelle and Nisao - They were given a CHOICE to swear the oath. The other option was to reveal that Myrelle had bonded Lan illegally and Nisao knew about it and kept it secret. Myrelle and Nisao could have chosen the other option.

 

The Sitters however, FORCED the oath into the ferrets. Not only that, they FORCED them to swear those oaths on the OATH ROD.

Not that much of a difference in my mind. Myrelle and Nisao didn't have much of a choice - it was either giving the oath of fealty or ruining their lives since the punishment for what they did to Lan would've been very serious. It was clear blackmail. Not to mention how wrong is for a leader of an organisation to let serious crimes go unpunished simply to increase her personal power.

 

On one hand, it's less questionable morally than what the BA hunters did, because at least Egwene gave Myrelle some choice,but the difference is not that big to allow Egwene to be indignant over their act and don't feel even the least bit ashamed of her own. Not to mention that Egwene's reasons for forcing the the oath out of Myrelle and the rest were mostly selfish - to increase her personal power. The BA hunters did it because this was the only way as a way to help in the hunt for the Black Ajah, which is a far more worthy goal and not selfish at all.

[dwn]

he oaths of fealty sworn by Egwene's cabal were coerced, which may still be distasteful, but they were oaths of support, not obedience

 

Not really.

 

This is the oath Theodrin swore to Egwene:

"Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I, Theodrin Dabei, swear fealty to you, Egwene al'Vere, to faithfully serve and obey on pain of my life and honor."

 

We don't know the exact wording of Nisao's oath, which Egwene blackmailed her into, but we know that it was even stronger:

"Beneath the Light and by my hope of rebirth and salvation. ..." Not the same wording as Faolain and Theodrin, but every scrap as strong. More. By the Three Oaths, no Aes Sedai could speak a vow she did not mean.

 

Even without the First Oath, those are the type of oaths people in Randland keep at all costs except if they are Darkfriends.

 

So it's the height of hypocrisy from Egwene to be indignant at Elaida and the BA hunters when she had done what amount for the same thing earlier. But this is typical Egwene - hypocrite to the core.

 

Not true.

 

Theodrin and Faolain - They swore this oath willingly.

 

Myrelle and Nisao - They were given a CHOICE to swear the oath. The other option was to reveal that Myrelle had bonded Lan illegally and Nisao knew about it and kept it secret. Myrelle and Nisao could have chosen the other option.

 

The Sitters however, FORCED the oath into the ferrets. Not only that, they FORCED them to swear those oaths on the OATH ROD.

Not that much of a difference in my mind. Myrelle and Nisao didn't have much of a choice - it was either giving the oath of fealty or ruining their lives since the punishment for what they did to Lan would've been very serious. It was clear blackmail. Not to mention how wrong is for a leader of an organisation to let serious crimes go unpunished simply to increase her personal power.

 

On one hand, it's less questionable morally than what the BA hunters did, because at least Egwene gave Myrelle some choice,but the difference is not that big to allow Egwene to be indignant over their act and don't feel even the least bit ashamed of her own. Not to mention that Egwene's reasons for forcing the the oath out of Myrelle and the rest were mostly selfish - to increase her personal power. The BA hunters did it because this was the only way as a way to help in the hunt for the Black Ajah, which is a far more worthy goal and not selfish at all.

 

I agree that it was some rather nasty coercion, but they did ultimately have that choice. The oath Egwene demanded was unprecedented for Aes Sedai, but quite normal for vassal to ruler. And while the oath against lying was proof the words were true, they ultimately had the free will to break it at extreme need. It wasn't anywhere near the "I swear to obey the two of you absolutely" oath that the ferrets made.

 

-- dwn

[Hopefire]

Nyn: Mother we should ask Rand..

Egwene: This is WT's problem..

For me, the thing I found funny about that scene was that Nynaeve's statement came immediately after discussion of how the Wise Ones and Windfinders would be helping.

[Caveatar]

Egwene is HighMucketyMuck of the Servants of All, Now She Reigns over them.

 

But a Servant who Reigns has been considered before by old Agur in the

Biblical Old Testament and by Rudyard Kipling.

 

Consider the following and compare to Egwene.

From Robert A. Heinlein writings, one of his characters says in a definition

"Public Servant = Public MASTER"

 

Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem about one of the biblical Proverbs which seems to relate to the "Servants of All" as we know them in Randland.

-------------

 

The Servant When He Reigneth

 

For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear. For a servant when he

reigneth, and a fool when he is filled with meat; for an odious woman when she is married, and an handmaid

that is heir to her mistress. -- Prov. XXX. 21-22-23.

 

 

Three things make earth unquiet And four she cannot brook

The godly Agur counted them And put them in a book --

 

Those Four Tremendous Curses With which mankind is cursed;

But a Servant when He Reigneth

Old Agur entered first.

 

An Handmaid that is Mistress We need not call upon.

A Fool when he is full of Meat Will fall asleep anon.

An Odious Woman Married May bear a babe and mend;

But a Servant when He Reigneth

Is Confusion to the end.

 

His feet are swift to tumult,

His hands are slow to toil,

His ears are deaf to reason,

His lips are loud in broil.

He knows no use for power Except to show his might. !!

He gives no heed to judgment Unless it prove him right. !!

 

Because he served a master Before his Kingship came,

And hid in all disaster Behind his master's name,

So, when his Folly opens The unnecessary hells,

A Servant when He Reigneth

Throws the blame on some one else.

 

His vows are lightly spoken,

His faith is hard to bind,

His trust is easy broken,

He fears his fellow-kind.

The nearest mob will move him

To break the pledge he gave --

Oh, a Servant when he Reigneth

Is more than ever slave!

 

Rudyard Kipling

 

I think RJ may have had some of this in mind in building the Aes Sedai and White Tower in the books.

 

Certainly to my mind the poem is applicable to the White Tower Aes Sedai and at the risk of going astray, most applicable to its Amyrlins, past and present.

And Most Definitely to Egwene the inkeeper's daughter turned Pope or Mope or Mama or whatever. :D

 

Personally I hope that all Aes Sedai except Nynaeve and possibly Moiraine get collared by the

Seanchan right after they collar the Empress may-she-be-broken-like-she-has-broken-others and sold as ca'covale to Mat Cauthon.

 

(Runs for a bunker in an alternate world.) :D

[FarShainMael]

The Halima / Aran'gar Compulsion camp:

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

I agree..

 

 

Well, I've made 43 trips 'round the sun already, and I think Egwene is a bitch.

 

Which doesn't mean I think that Jordan or Sanderson can't write. On the contrary, I believe that she is being written this way on purpose. Other characters, including other female characters, have shown far more growth.

 

People take this too personally. If she's a bitch, it's not her FAULT. She's a character. If she's a bitch, there is likely a reason.

 

I still say that too much effort and too many words went into setting up the Halima/compulsion plotline for it to just die.

 

I don't think it will..

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

Look, I'm not saying Egwene is a saint, she isn't. She's often stubborn, arrogant, and wrong-headed. But so are Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Cadsuane, Lan, and just about everyone else we get a POV from except for Min or Thom.

 

 

All of those characters have experienced growth (except for maybe Mat). Egwene hasn't learned anything except for how to better rule the White Tower.

 

Now, I'm not entirely convinced that this is her own fault. I didn't see this overriding arrogance from her early in the series, more of a ruefullness about the silliness of men. This hardcore attitude is different and I'm also of the camp that it's mostly caused by Halima's "massages", which I suspect were cover for a little bit of old-fashioned Compulsion.

 

You are probably right..

 

 

Aran'gar fell silent. The Great Lord had not been pleased with her for losing control of Egwene al'Vere.

[anotherfingolfin]

The Halima / Aran'gar Compulsion camp:

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

I agree..

 

 

Well, I've made 43 trips 'round the sun already, and I think Egwene is a bitch.

 

Which doesn't mean I think that Jordan or Sanderson can't write. On the contrary, I believe that she is being written this way on purpose. Other characters, including other female characters, have shown far more growth.

 

People take this too personally. If she's a bitch, it's not her FAULT. She's a character. If she's a bitch, there is likely a reason.

 

I still say that too much effort and too many words went into setting up the Halima/compulsion plotline for it to just die.

 

I don't think it will..

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

Look, I'm not saying Egwene is a saint, she isn't. She's often stubborn, arrogant, and wrong-headed. But so are Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Cadsuane, Lan, and just about everyone else we get a POV from except for Min or Thom.

 

 

All of those characters have experienced growth (except for maybe Mat). Egwene hasn't learned anything except for how to better rule the White Tower.

 

Now, I'm not entirely convinced that this is her own fault. I didn't see this overriding arrogance from her early in the series, more of a ruefullness about the silliness of men. This hardcore attitude is different and I'm also of the camp that it's mostly caused by Halima's "massages", which I suspect were cover for a little bit of old-fashioned Compulsion.

 

You are probably right..

 

 

Aran'gar fell silent. The Great Lord had not been pleased with her for losing control of Egwene al'Vere.

 

I want to believe it, but i don't. i think it's too late in the day to expect anything. i think, nay FEAR, that she is expected to be completely sympathetic, and we are supposed to agree with her.

the only spark of hope i have is that now two different people have written her voice, and it is the same. it is unlikely that both would seemingly not realise the too glaring flaws that are unbecoming of someone who is supposed to be in the right.

[Bizzie]

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

That was mind-blowingly fantastic! You summed up exactly what I thought!

[babuada]

Look at this dream from Egwin.

 

ACOS (Ch10)

She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the DO's prison shut...the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the AS she was trying to tear down, the White Tower. Maybe....

 

Now look at this.

The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom. What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path.

 

And the Jendai Profecy.

The White Tower shall be broken by his name, and Aes Sedai shall kneel to wash his feet and dry them with their hair.

 

My speculation is in Fields of Merilor Rand is going to teach them to be truely AS, i.e, servant of all. And he will rub it on Egwin's nose :)

[babuada]

Further speculation.

Fields of Merilor is where Paasan Diren was. Especially the hall of servants. Rand is going to show them what Light is and he is the only wielder of it.

Refer TEoTW. IMO Light is the essence of True Source. And only Rand can handle it without getting burned. AS already take oath to follow Light and therefore already bound to him (as he is the only representative of Light).

[Kidicaris]

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

That was mind-blowingly fantastic! You summed up exactly what I thought!

 

Oh slam.... That part about Egwene's instinctive opposition to Rand being caused by Halima is very interesting. Even more interesting considering the one person we know who can Delve and remove Compulsion is Nyneave (who has very conveniently returned to Tar Valon).

 

I was listening to the 4th Age podcast and someone brought up their disappointment that Egwene did not put together her sudden lack of headaches with Halima. Now, with those headaches gone I don't know what might lead Nyneave to Delve Egwene though.

 

As for the rest of your post RS, I find myself agreeing with everything too. It's really too bad, Eghead's sections has always been some of my favorite in the books. Leading up to ToM all her underdog antics and out-wrangling of her myriad of enemies was masterful. In ToM the situation in the Hall felt contrived and her character became difficult to sympathize with.

[dwn]

Oh slam.... That part about Egwene's instinctive opposition to Rand being caused by Halima is very interesting. Even more interesting considering the one person we know who can Delve and remove Compulsion is Nyneave (who has very conveniently returned to Tar Valon).

 

I was listening to the 4th Age podcast and someone brought up their disappointment that Egwene did not put together her sudden lack of headaches with Halima. Now, with those headaches gone I don't know what might lead Nyneave to Delve Egwene though.

 

As for the rest of your post RS, I find myself agreeing with everything too. It's really too bad, Eghead's sections has always been some of my favorite in the books. Leading up to ToM all her underdog antics and out-wrangling of her myriad of enemies was masterful. In ToM the situation in the Hall felt contrived and her character became difficult to sympathize with.

 

Egwene does figure it out after learning about Delana and Halima. The TGS chapters 'Clean Shirts' and 'Unexpected Encounters' deal with it.

 

She shivered. Halima had touched Egwene, supposedly massaging her headaches away. Those headaches disappeared as soon as Egwene had been captured; why hadn't she considered that Halima might have been causing them? What else had the woman been plotting?

 

-- TGS, Unexpected Encounters, p. 192

 

-- dwn

[David Selig]

That part about Egwene's instinctive opposition to Rand being caused by Halima is very interesting.

She was instinctively opposed to everything Rand did or say for most of the series, long before she met Haliman'gar. Because he's a man and in her mind, men are usually wrong. Even when she knew Rand is obviously right from a logical point of view, she only admitted it with great reluctance.

[Jaglover]

I have a more balanced view on Egwene than many of the haters, but still find many reasons to dislike her throughout the series. Despite her growing maturity she actually has some of her worst behaviour in this book, towards Gawyn.

 

If the sexes were reversed how many would be comfortable with a male 'good' character who demanded unquestioning obediance from his would be wife, before he would reconcile with her?.

 

She behaved like an absolute bitch toward him all book, that note he received in Caemyln was just the icing on the cake to me. The only thing that might have given her some much needed character development is if she had woken to find a dead Gawyn there in her bedroom, but the invulnerability of all the major characters meant that was very unlikely.

 

Her actions toward Perrin were very poor as well.

 

But i don't disagree with her questioning Rand, she is quite entitled to disagree with such a dangerous strategy.

[dwn]

I have a more balanced view on Egwene than many of the haters, but still find many reasons to dislike her throughout the series. Despite her growing maturity she actually has some of her worst behaviour in this book, towards Gawyn.

 

If the sexes were reversed how many would be comfortable with a male 'good' character who demanded unquestioning obediance from his would be wife, before he would reconcile with her?.

 

She behaved like an absolute bitch toward him all book, that note he received in Caemyln was just the icing on the cake to me. The only thing that might have given her some much needed character development is if she had woken to find a dead Gawyn there in her bedroom, but the invulnerability of all the major characters meant that was very unlikely.

 

Her actions toward Perrin were very poor as well.

 

But i don't disagree with her questioning Rand, she is quite entitled to disagree with such a dangerous strategy.

 

She was nasty toward Gawyn, but her attitude is understandable. She's still learning to balance Egwene-the-woman and Egwene-the-Amyrlin, and Gawyn is trying to rush her with no regard for her feelings or situation.

 

A husband expecting his wife to defer to him, even in modern times, isn't all that shocking.

 

Egwene didn't write that note to Gawyn; Silviana did. Egwene was a bit appalled when she saw it and told Silviana to write a second, more conciliatory, one.

 

Perrin surprised her, and her first instinct was that he was in over his head--which was exactly his first instinct on seeing her there.

 

I found Egwene's reaction to Rand's plan (if it can be called such) as the perfectly natural response of any sane person. It's funny, but Rand's speech about not wanting to be overshadowed by Aes Sedai also applies to Egwene, I suspect. Rand was going to be her husband and now he's the saviour of the world. She has to feel a bit of irrational jealousy over that.

 

I agree that the vitriol thrown at Egwene is excessive. She has some unattractive qualities, but none of them make her a bad or unsympathetic person. Most people turn an attitude of "I wouldn't really want to be friends with her" into "I hate Egwene and all she stands for!"

 

-- dwn

[randsc]

That Silviana wrote that note is a point against Egwene, not a point in her favor.

 

She had no legal right to control Gawyn's movements. He is not a Warder, or a member of her army. Her only call on Gawyn's loyalty is a personal one. And still she has Siviana, who dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular, write the note. That is not good behavior.

 

And she wasn't appalled when she saw the note, because she didn't see the note. She imagined that she knew what the tone was like, given the people involved. Which means, of course, that she knew when she had Silviana send it that it would be nasty.

 

And after all that, she STILL doesn't send a note of her own! She has Silviana write another.

 

Gawyn was until this point probably the least likable character in the series. He has very little in the way of admirable qualities. And Egwene makes me sympathize with him.

 

As for the deference, I don't think anyone would really object if what she was demanding of Gawyn were public deference to her as Amyrlin. That is clearly necessary if she is going to do the job. But her POV makes it clear that that is not what she is after. She was him completely subordinated to her will. There is no way a "good guy" character who was male would ever be written thinking in a similar way about his presumptive wife. Even if the author wanted to write it that way, it would never be published.

[David Selig]

Agreed about the note. Egwene knew Silviana dislike Gawyn, he was not under the official authority of the Amyrlin, so making her write the note to him was really demeaning IMO.

 

I don't like Gawyn at all, but even he doesn't deserve to be treated this way. Egwene didn't even thak him for saving her life by beating 3 super assassins.

[randsc]

Regarding Perrin:

 

Egwene's first instinct was that Perrin was in over his head.

 

Perrin's first instinct was that Egwene was in over her head.

 

Did they react the same way?

 

Perrin warns her that the place is dangerous. He recognizes, from the fact that she is there, that she probably knows something about the place ("You probably know...") and encourages her to be careful.

 

Egwene tries to tie him up in the middle of a battle.

[Jaglover]

That Silviana wrote that note is a point against Egwene, not a point in her favor.

 

 

Agreed

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

That Silviana wrote that note is a point against Egwene, not a point in her favor.

 

 

Agreed

 

Disagreed. It isn not a point in her favour. But NEITHER is it a point against her.

[Jaglover]

That Silviana wrote that note is a point against Egwene, not a point in her favor.

 

 

Agreed

 

Disagreed. It isn not a point in her favour. But NEITHER is it a point against her.

 

Having Silviana write the letter is one of the most cold and arrogant things she did in this book. Making clear that Gawyn to her was not even worth the time for a scribbled message.

[anotherfingolfin]

That Silviana wrote that note is a point against Egwene, not a point in her favor.

 

 

Agreed

 

Disagreed. It isn not a point in her favour. But NEITHER is it a point against her.

 

Having Silviana write the letter is one of the most cold and arrogant things she did in this book. Making clear that Gawyn to her was not even worth the time for a scribbled message.

 

At the very least, the second time around, after she realised how badly the first one would have been handled...

[RedVanilla]

I can sort of see why she acted that way towards him, she felt that by him only treating her as Egwene, and not as the Amyrlin, he was refusing to see her authority, and that would be bad for the other Aes Sedai to see, because then they would also try to get away with that behaviour. However, I think if she had taken him into her room and explained it to him, he would have understood, not necessarily liked it, but understood and tried to act more accordingly. What she was overlooking was how much he was like Elayne, full of stubborn and "my way my way!"

[randsc]

But she doesn't have any authority over him, any more than the King of Illian does.

 

If she wants him to return, it is because Egwene-the-woman (God, i hate that formulation) wants him to return.