Discuss Egwene

[Darth Krewl]

I would like to see how they would react to the weaves not working

 

Simple.

 

The Seanchan would suspect that the captured marath'damane are trying to deceive them, to protect their colleagues at Tar Valon. Chances are they would torture them brutally through the A'dam, thinking that would be the way to extract the true weaves from them and, should that fail, they'd probably march into Tar Valon at any rate, using their flying beasts. It makes all the sense in the world.

 

So, putting a dreamspike in place over Ebou Dar is not that good of an idea. Not to mention that, in order for Egwene to do that, she'd have to have intel in advance of the Seanchan attack. In which case, many preventive measures could be taken. Unfortunately for the Aes Sedai, they don't know the first thing about For-Tuon-a's intentions, so the attack is coming. Just as it happened in Caemlyn.

[SvetSedi]

My view on this is that Egwene (if she learns about & finds a Dreamspike) would activate it at TV to trap all the Seanchan at TV.

 

Egwene is a good one for planning. We have seen it time and time again. She knows that the Seanchan probably have Traveling. We may not have seen all of Eggy actions in toM but I bet she has the WT AS training like crazy to make up for their really, really poor performance earlier. That and she better have a lookout system for Flyers and Travelers.

 

She has got to have something cooking for them or I will be really pissed.

 

 

Edit to add.

 

Maybe she just plans to ofer them an exchyange program like she did the WOs and the Sea Folk! HA! HA!

[Androl]

Maybe she just plans to ofer them an exchyange program like she did the WOs and the Sea Folk! HA! HA!

ROFLMAO

 

What Egwene needs is to get Aviendha to the White Tower and have her go through all the things of power there to tell Egwene what they do.

 

Was there nothing left in Ruehen (sp) except for the Rings and Glass Collums? I was hoping she would find something interesting there.

[Darth Krewl]

My view on this is that Egwene (if she learns about & finds a Dreamspike) would activate it at TV to trap all the Seanchan at TV.

 

Egwene is a good one for planning. We have seen it time and time again. She knows that the Seanchan probably have Traveling. We may not have seen all of Eggy actions in toM but I bet she has the WT AS training like crazy to make up for their really, really poor performance earlier. That and she better have a lookout system for Flyers and Travelers.

 

And that, is a big "if", based on speculation (and some cheering and good will from your part, I believe).

 

Not to mention that I didn't get any clue or foreshadowing from the book, to indicate that Egwene has her charges training like Bruce Wayne in the Tibet when he was learning to become the Batman. So, unless the White Tower has some Matrix-like programs in combat technique that they can learn in a flash, there's no time for them to gain the expertise needed to repel a full-fledged attack by the Seanchan. These aren't a few Damane, To'raken and Bloodknives we're talking about. It's their full strength. That's what For-Tuon-a wants. And with the Seanchan, what the Empress wants, she gets.

 

In all fairness, the dreamspike thing would work, I admit. Alas, Egwene has already her hands full with her stubborn idea of stopping Rand and is way too busy trying to rally world leaders to her cause to do much to prevent the Seanchan attack. Everyone is good at planning...if/when they have enough time for it and information, like Perrin clearly demonstrated in ToM. But Egwene has neither. The attack is coming. It's inevitable.

[Hadilmir]

And that, is a big "if", based on speculation (and some cheering and good will from your part, I believe).

 

Not to mention that I didn't get any clue or foreshadowing from the book, to indicate that Egwene has her charges training like Bruce Wayne in the Tibet when he was learning to become the Batman. So, unless the White Tower has some Matrix-like programs in combat technique that they can learn in a flash, there's no time for them to gain the expertise needed to repel a full-fledged attack by the Seanchan. These aren't a few Damane, To'raken and Bloodknives we're talking about. It's their full strength. That's what For-Tuon-a wants. And with the Seanchan, what the Empress wants, she gets.

 

In all fairness, the dreamspike thing would work, I admit. Alas, Egwene has already her hands full with her stubborn idea of stopping Rand and is way too busy trying to rally world leaders to her cause to do much to prevent the Seanchan attack. Everyone is good at planning...if/when they have enough time for it and information, like Perrin clearly demonstrated in ToM. But Egwene has neither. The attack is coming. It's inevitable.

 

I don't know about you, but from the public traveling system appearing from nowhere, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out Egwene had imposed a channeling crash course in survival on the sisters. Certainly no actual training in a military sense, that goes against the nature of Aes Sedai, but at the least something to keep them from panicking like last time. I'm a of the opinion that individuality is more effective in channeling battles than regulated military conduct such as the three main weaves used by damane (and Egwene unfortunately, I thought she was smarter than that) last time. Another thing I'm expecting is the formation of links to definitely have been put into practice because that is the one strategy that was already set up among the victorious (sort of) faction. Just because it hasn't been directly mentioned yet doesn't mean it can be counted out.

[anotherfingolfin]

It has been said already that Egwene has not gone through nearly the same amount of character development as the others. In fact, the reverse is true; she has actually forgotten most of what she learned from Moiraine and the Wise Ones. My greatest worry regarding Egwene is that she won't have her epihany, that she won't be taken down a peg, that she won't learn that the White Tower is not the centre of the world. Now, from what I've read, it looks like most of those who have pointed out Egwene's flaws believe that she's being written this way intentionally, and that we are supposed to feel angry at her arrogance and bullheadedness.

 

But I'm not so sure. Given Robert Jordan's rather idiosyncratic views and his difficulty with writing strong female characters, I have a sneaking fear that we're meant to sympathise and agree with Egwene.

 

This reflects my view as well. There hasn't been enough direct indication in the text for so, so long that we are supposed to be critical of the character, that I don't think it will happen. What you succinctly said about RJ seems to indicate so. I, for one, will be very dissatisfied if there is no epiphany/forced change. Especially if she will continue to have a major role in AMoL (which is almost certain).

[Barid Bel Medar]

So, this debate is going round in circles.

 

Some people hate her with a passion. Some love her. and some think she is an interesting character.

 

Noone is going to change anyone's opinions.

 

But can we all not agree that for all her virtues, vices and other, Egwene NEEDS to change her attitude and have an Epiphany like all of the other 4 EM characters have had. You may hate her and want extreme death, or you may like her, but surely everyone agrees that she and all the Aes Sedai, whether you like them or not, need to grow and change jsut like Nynaeve said after her testing. they all need to forget their arrogance (and yes, no matter how much you like her, Egwene's arrogance is a vice) (another note, so was Rand's before anyone plays that card, but he has changed) and learn humility and how to COMMUNICATE, TRUST and WORK TOGETHER.

 

Egwene has learned much and done alot of good, yet she still needs to learn these things.

 

Surely everyone can agree on that one point.

 

Edit: Unless of course, you are a female chauvinist, which is bad and you should change your life views, just the same as male chauvinist.

[SuperFade]

This reflects my view as well. There hasn't been enough direct indication in the text for so, so long that we are supposed to be critical of the character, that I don't think it will happen. What you succinctly said about RJ seems to indicate so. I, for one, will be very dissatisfied if there is no epiphany/forced change. Especially if she will continue to have a major role in AMoL (which is almost certain).

 

It's a major problem with RJ's writing. I think most here would agree that for the majority of the series the main female characters have been positively bitchy and horrible towards the rest of the cast. Now, one can say that the marked improvement over the last two books is a sign of good character development and growing maturity. Except that according to some of the interviews I've read, RJ did not consider the women to be obnoxious, but 'strong'. It makes me worry that the change is due to Sanderson's intervention - I'm not complaining, since it's about time some of these girls grew up a little - and that Egwene herself is not destined to have her epiphany, because RJ would have seen her as a strong, progressive female due to his views on gender. I hope I'm not going off on a tangent, so just bear with me for a second.

 

Egwene as a character has been roundly praised by every group she has joined - The Wise Ones think she's the best thing since sliced bread, the Aes Sedai are all in awe of her abilities as Amyrlin and everyone around her feels the need to shower her with praise at every opportunity, even if it's an affectionate chuckle of, 'Oh, Egwene, you've outsmarted us again you little scamp.' She is incredibly strong in the Power and has successfully begun reforming one of the most influential bodies in Randland (and it IS influential, much as I hate the fact). Now the point of all this is; what if RJ thought this was good enough? What if he thought Egwene didn't need to change? I am genuinely worried that this was the case and that Egwene won't get the wakeup call she so desperately needs.

[Mystraka]

one thing i just realised

egwene just like tuon thinks "could tutors have trained him so quickly?"

 

that is what i dont like with her, she is a bit too much of a hyprocrite

 

What is strange about this is that she should know Rand is clever and very capable all by himself. I certainly understand her questioning his sanity and many of his decisions, but why question his competence? She knows he has fought and killed forsaken. She knows that he took leadership of Tear and imposed much fairer laws in that country. She knows he took leadership of the Aiel. She knows he took leadership of Cairhien and handled the Great Game there decently. She knows he is king of Illian. By this point in the books she knows that he cleansed Saidin. She knows that he had training from Moiraine and is surrounded by Aes Sedai, nobles, and Wise Ones that can advise him (she doesn't know that he unwisely doesn't take much advantage of these assets). So why is she so surprised that he seems so capable and confident?

 

Egwene was referring to his manner and inflection more than his knowledge and accomplishments. A person with many years of education (i.e. Lews Therin) sounds and acts differently than a country bumpkin with a two year crash course in politics (i.e. Rand).

 

-- dwn

 

And what qualifies a country bumpkin to make that assessment? Her inner thought process betrays just how arrogant she has become. She is just as arrogant as Elaida, the difference being that Elaida served herself while Egwene serves the WT. Sometimes I wish we could get an amyrlin that would serve humanity.

[blazetheearth]

 

And what qualifies a country bumpkin to make that assessment? Her inner thought process betrays just how arrogant she has become. She is just as arrogant as Elaida, the difference being that Elaida served herself while Egwene serves the WT. Sometimes I wish we could get an amyrlin that would serve humanity.

 

I agree entirely. To me it was another example of her hypocrisy. Both were born in the same village, and left that village on the exact same day. She believes that her own changes in manner and behavior are to be expected, after all she's AS, but she seemed surprised that anyone else might have been able to that shed the village upbringing as well as she had.

 

He spoke differently. There was a formality to his words that she didn't recognize. In another man, she would have assumed a cultured, educated background, But Rand didn't have that. Could tutors have trained him so quickly?

 

I do understand what dwn is saying about what the paragraph was intended to convey, but IMO the wording of it falls fairly short of conveying that meaning. To me, it reads like "If she didn't know he was a bumpkin, then she would think he'd been born nobly. Could he have changed that much in the couple of years since we left the TR?"

 

She knows how much her own persona and poise have changed, but immediately has a hard time accepting that Rand could have changed or learned as much as she had changed herself. It also ties in to what Suian and Gareth said about him. I think the "spoke differently" part is Eggy's way of interpreting the same thing Gareth and Suian see as "He looks like Aes Sedai."

[David Selig]

Another thing that bugged me about Egwene in this book was that she didn't try to get Rand's help for getting Mesaana. At the very least she should've went to him to ask for information about her, instead of relying on the vague library records about The Age of Legends. He told her he has LTT's memories now, and she seemed to believe him or at least consider seriously the possibility that he was speaking the truth. certainly LTT's memories could've given her way more info on mesaana than the few fragments about her remaining in the Tower Library.

 

If you are going on a hunt for a Forsaken, why not ask for help the guy who killed most of them already? But, no - "This is a matter of the Tower, Nynaeve". I guess she was too proud to ask for help and admit the Tower had a Forsaken hidden inside.

[Elan Tedronai]

Another thing that bugged me about Egwene in this book was that she didn't try to get Rand's help for getting Mesaana. At the very least she should've went to him to ask for information about her, instead of relying on the vague library records about The Age of Legends. He told her he has LTT's memories now, and she seemed to believe him or at least consider seriously the possibility that he was speaking the truth. certainly LTT's memories could've given her way more info on mesaana than the few fragments about her remaining in the Tower Library.

 

If you are going on a hunt for a Forsaken, why not ask for help the guy who killed most of them already? But, no - "This is a matter of the Tower, Nynaeve". I guess she was too proud to ask for help and admit the Tower had a Forsaken hidden inside.

 

 

so freakin what? she did get mesanaa in the end which i am sure alot of egwene bashers here enjoyed lol.

 

It seems to me that alot of people here want egwene to go through some epiphany kinda like rand in the last book. Basically someone or something in non political correctness terms should put eggy in her place.

 

 

I can only hope eggy ontinues to do what she does best. Bend knee to no one.

[Hadilmir]

And what qualifies a country bumpkin to make that assessment?

 

...She was far closer to being in control of herself last she saw him? Don't forget that last part. Since then, she's been through enough that she now has a legitimate claim to being an expert of Daes Dae'mar (Nowhere near Thom; I doubt that's even possible ) and not too far from being unparalleled in self-control among the Westlanders. However, Rand shows up and he fars surpasses her abilities in both of these aspects. Am I a hypocrite for wondering how another sprinter got faster than me even though I've been practicing hard and was faster than him last I saw him?

 

Also, Barid, good luck with that. It isn't going to work, this is the infinite argument loop thread.

[Barid Bel Medar]

And what qualifies a country bumpkin to make that assessment?

 

...She was far closer to being in control of herself last she saw him? Don't forget that last part. Since then, she's been through enough that she now has a legitimate claim to being an expert of Daes Dae'mar (Nowhere near Thom; I doubt that's even possible ) and not too far from being unparalleled in self-control among the Westlanders. However, Rand shows up and he fars surpasses her abilities in both of these aspects. Am I a hypocrite for wondering how another sprinter got faster than me even though I've been practicing hard and was faster than him last I saw him?

 

Also, Barid, good luck with that. It isn't going to work, this is the infinite argument loop thread.

 

Hahaha, well i thought it was worth a try. I still think its true.

 

as to your point, bare with me here. the last time Egwene saw him was in FoH (IIRC) Egwene wasnt that great, she hadnt even begun the Great Game, and Rand was actually doing well manipulating the Aiel, and she often wondered about his face being "Too hard". She also knew he was being tutored every day by Moiraine, who she knew was a great player of the game. At this point I think Rand was better than her at the Great Game.

 

HOWEVER, i dont think thats why she was wondering at his progress. It wasnt because of the last time she had seen him, but the reports other sisters and her spies had been bringing her, which all told her of him being half-mad Rand with a temper to match Nynaeve. This is all she had to go by, and she had no idea about his change in tGS (where although nearly evil, he became coldly Aes Sedai) nor his VoG epiphany. So i think your wrong to say that when she last saw him she was going "much faster", but I do agree she had reason to be confused, but because of the recent reports of his instability.

 

At least thats my take on it. If she was referring to when she saw him in FoH, then she is a fool. She wasnt doing THAT great that it is incredible that Rand could be "trained" that quickly. That would certainly make her a little arrogant fool and suggest that no-one could learn faster than her.

[Darth Krewl]

And that, is a big "if", based on speculation (and some cheering and good will from your part, I believe).

 

Not to mention that I didn't get any clue or foreshadowing from the book, to indicate that Egwene has her charges training like Bruce Wayne in the Tibet when he was learning to become the Batman. So, unless the White Tower has some Matrix-like programs in combat technique that they can learn in a flash, there's no time for them to gain the expertise needed to repel a full-fledged attack by the Seanchan. These aren't a few Damane, To'raken and Bloodknives we're talking about. It's their full strength. That's what For-Tuon-a wants. And with the Seanchan, what the Empress wants, she gets.

 

In all fairness, the dreamspike thing would work, I admit. Alas, Egwene has already her hands full with her stubborn idea of stopping Rand and is way too busy trying to rally world leaders to her cause to do much to prevent the Seanchan attack. Everyone is good at planning...if/when they have enough time for it and information, like Perrin clearly demonstrated in ToM. But Egwene has neither. The attack is coming. It's inevitable.

 

I don't know about you, but from the public traveling system appearing from nowhere, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out Egwene had imposed a channeling crash course in survival on the sisters. Certainly no actual training in a military sense, that goes against the nature of Aes Sedai, but at the least something to keep them from panicking like last time. I'm a of the opinion that individuality is more effective in channeling battles than regulated military conduct such as the three main weaves used by damane (and Egwene unfortunately, I thought she was smarter than that) last time. Another thing I'm expecting is the formation of links to definitely have been put into practice because that is the one strategy that was already set up among the victorious (sort of) faction. Just because it hasn't been directly mentioned yet doesn't mean it can be counted out.

 

Excuse me, but I fail to see how you would understand that I'm counting out the possibility of defense of the White Tower when the Seanchan attack comes, when it's not even implied in my words. I just said the attack is coming, that it's inevitable.

 

In fact, why would the Aes Sedai prepare themselves for the attack if it wasn't inevitable? 'cause if you think that Egwene has set up some kind of preventive/defensive measures in place, that means you also feel like the attack is an inevitability. Otherwise, you'd be the one counting out those defenses not me. I never said they couldn't be in place, I just said that I read nothing to indicate it and that Egwene has no advanced intel reports warning her of Fortuona's decision.

 

EDIT: oh yeah, I do feel like the Aes Sedai are not gonna be ready to deal with what's coming ('cause the Seanchan are single-minded about this) and I do think that the Tower will fall (one just doesn't change habits of thousands of years overnight and the Aes Sedai have never faced a threat like this) but that doesn't mean I don't believe that they'll do everything within their power to counter it.

[dwn]

one thing i just realised

egwene just like tuon thinks "could tutors have trained him so quickly?"

 

that is what i dont like with her, she is a bit too much of a hyprocrite

 

What is strange about this is that she should know Rand is clever and very capable all by himself. I certainly understand her questioning his sanity and many of his decisions, but why question his competence? She knows he has fought and killed forsaken. She knows that he took leadership of Tear and imposed much fairer laws in that country. She knows he took leadership of the Aiel. She knows he took leadership of Cairhien and handled the Great Game there decently. She knows he is king of Illian. By this point in the books she knows that he cleansed Saidin. She knows that he had training from Moiraine and is surrounded by Aes Sedai, nobles, and Wise Ones that can advise him (she doesn't know that he unwisely doesn't take much advantage of these assets). So why is she so surprised that he seems so capable and confident?

 

Egwene was referring to his manner and inflection more than his knowledge and accomplishments. A person with many years of education (i.e. Lews Therin) sounds and acts differently than a country bumpkin with a two year crash course in politics (i.e. Rand).

 

-- dwn

 

And what qualifies a country bumpkin to make that assessment? Her inner thought process betrays just how arrogant she has become. She is just as arrogant as Elaida, the difference being that Elaida served herself while Egwene serves the WT. Sometimes I wish we could get an amyrlin that would serve humanity.

 

Egwene has been around enough educated people to pick up on the substantial change in Rand's demeanour. She herself, after months of intense tutoring, doesn't sound like that. Siuan, after 25 years still has the rough edges of a Tairen commoner. By tutoring, Egwene meant... charm school, for lack of a better word.

 

-- dwn

[Darth Krewl]

Egwene has been around enough educated people to pick up on the substantial change in Rand's demeanour. She herself, after months of intense tutoring, doesn't sound like that. Siuan, after 25 years still has the rough edges of a Tairen commoner. By tutoring, Egwene meant... charm school, for lack of a better word.

 

-- dwn

 

Please excuse me, but I strongly disagree.

 

Egwene has been around "educated" people for only a little less than two years and that, for the most part, has been only the Aes Sedai, not Cairhienin, Tairen or Andorian nobility, for instance. Her worldly experience and views are still limited in this sense; especially to understand a complex and intrinsic mind, such as that of a man like Lews Therin Telamon, now that Rand has integrated his memories. Not only does Egwene, at her 18 tender years, pale in comparison to the experiences of more than 400 yrs. that Rand now has, but the girl can't even begin to understand the way her world used to operate during the Age of Legends.

 

As for Siuan, as Amyrlin, she spent most of her time locked away in the Tower, busy with all of the duties and affairs that her station demanded of her. So, while an expert on all things Aes Sedai, when it comes down to worldly experience, she is a far cry from the likes of Moiraine or Cadsuane, for instance, who spent most of their time as field operatives for the Tower. Regardless on the fact that Moiraine was highborn.

[dwn]

Egwene has been around enough educated people to pick up on the substantial change in Rand's demeanour. She herself, after months of intense tutoring, doesn't sound like that. Siuan, after 25 years still has the rough edges of a Tairen commoner. By tutoring, Egwene meant... charm school, for lack of a better word.

 

-- dwn

 

Please excuse me, but I strongly disagree.

 

Egwene has been around "educated" people for only a little less than two years and that, for the most part, has been only the Aes Sedai, not Cairhienin, Tairen or Andorian nobility, for instance. Her worldly experience and views are still limited in this sense; especially to understand a complex and intrinsic mind, such as that of a man like Lews Therin Telamon, now that Rand has integrated his memories. Not only does Egwene, at her 18 tender years, pale in comparison to the experiences of more than 400 yrs. that Rand now has, but the girl can't even begin to understand the way her world used to operate during the Age of Legends.

 

As for Siuan, as Amyrlin, she spent most of her time locked away in the Tower, busy with all of the duties and affairs that her station demanded of her. So, while an expert on all things Aes Sedai, when it comes down to worldly experience, she is a far cry from the likes of Moiraine or Cadsuane, for instance, who spent most of their time as field operatives for the Tower. Regardless on the fact that Moiraine was highborn.

 

Since apparently I'm not being clear...

 

Egwene doesn't need to be extraordinarily educated or cultured in order to recognize someone who is. She has spent enough time around highborn and educated people to have a good frame of reference for it. Rand's LTT-ish demeanour rightly conflicted with her (and everyone else's) expectations, given his background and character.

 

-- dwn

[Darth Krewl]

Since apparently I'm not being clear...

 

Egwene doesn't need to be extraordinarily educated or cultured in order to recognize someone who is. She has spent enough time around highborn and educated people to have a good frame of reference for it. Rand's LTT-ish demeanour rightly conflicted with her (and everyone else's) expectations, given his background and character.

 

-- dwn

 

Oh, okay. Now I understand and I agree, yep.

 

That pretty much means that Rand has the upper hand in the upcoming debate. I don't think Egwene has the slightest idea of what she's getting into. Not saying she's gonna get owned by Rand, 'cause many may oppose him just out of fearing the seals broken, but IMO, the child Amyrlin's gonna have her hands full, now that the Dragon's truly been reborn.

[Hadilmir]

Excuse me, but I fail to see how you would understand that I'm counting out the possibility of defense of the White Tower when the Seanchan attack comes, when it's not even implied in my words. I just said the attack is coming, that it's inevitable.

 

In fact, why would the Aes Sedai prepare themselves for the attack if it wasn't inevitable? 'cause if you think that Egwene has set up some kind of preventive/defensive measures in place, that means you also feel like the attack is an inevitability. Otherwise, you'd be the one counting out those defenses not me. I never said they couldn't be in place, I just said that I read nothing to indicate it and that Egwene has no advanced intel reports warning her of Fortuona's decision.

 

EDIT: oh yeah, I do feel like the Aes Sedai are not gonna be ready to deal with what's coming ('cause the Seanchan are single-minded about this) and I do think that the Tower will fall (one just doesn't change habits of thousands of years overnight and the Aes Sedai have never faced a threat like this) but that doesn't mean I don't believe that they'll do everything within their power to counter it.

 

Well you see, I implied that you implied that there wouldn't be any training going on, due to your Batman reference. I wasn't able to tell if you meant you didn't think there'd be any training since it hasn't been mentioned or that there'd be training, but not rigorous enough. So I left a vague statement. You see? This is the infinite argument loop thread, we can argue opinions that don't change or we can argue semantics that have no point. Which is why I like this thread, I enjoy arguing no matter how pointless it is. As much as it pains me to say it, I do agree with your last post though. I tried to find an arguement against it, but failed.

 

Also, Barid, I meant the self-control aspect when I mentioned when Egwene last saw Rand. He was very moody and his temper was horrible. I should've made that clearer...

[Darth Krewl]

Well you see, I implied that you implied that there wouldn't be any training going on, due to your Batman reference. I wasn't able to tell if you meant you didn't think there'd be any training since it hasn't been mentioned or that there'd be training, but not rigorous enough. So I left a vague statement. You see? This is the infinite argument loop thread, we can argue opinions that don't change or we can argue semantics that have no point. Which is why I like this thread, I enjoy arguing no matter how pointless it is. As much as it pains me to say it, I do agree with your last post though. I tried to find an arguement against it, but failed.

 

Oh okay, I implied that you implied that I implied that...wait...I don't understand anything now...:-o

 

J/k...hehehe...in all seriousness, this is my fault, actually, because you're right, I wasn't very specific and, now that I read your explanation, I understand what you mean.

 

My point was that I don't think the Aes Sedai are training as hard and thoroughly to counter this imminent, great threat, because, IMO, that would be such a big deal that I can't see Sanderson (or Jordan in his notes) failing to make at least a little mention about it in the book. Could be that they have a big surprise in store for us or that they really wanted to stress the fact the AS aren't ready to counter such menaces as Damane or Dreadlords (which is the theory I support).

 

Truth be told, I won't shed any tears for the Tower if this is its destiny, indeed, 'cause I would put it on their shoulders. I certainly would've preferred to see the AS change their ways and right their ship before it sank, but it's my theory that the Randland is already changing so much (and will continue to do so), so that it can move into a new, much better and promising age, if/when Tarmon Gai'don is won by the Light. Another example from the Batman films tells us that things will get worse before they get better and the darkest hour is just before dawn. This is what I think is going on in the Randland right now, including the Tower. Though, I may be wrong, of course.

[randychoy]

I may have completely missed this, but why does Egwene feel the need for all of the rulers of the world to empty out all of their military forces for this big meeting with Rand? I understand that she wants to bring every relevant ruler to try to dissuade him of his plans to break the remaining seals; like an intervention of sorts. But it's a diplomatic solution. We don't see G20 summits or congressional hearings accompanied by each party's entire military compliment. Does she think that if the monarchs of all of the nations don't come with their armies then Rand won't think they really mean business? Does it have something to do with Plan B ("forcing her hand")? Seems like a hollow threat. It's not like if he refuses to change his plans then she'll order everyone to attack Rand. And why do the monarchs agree and think it's a good idea to bring their armies? The Borderlands are boiling over with darkspawn and now every nation is effectively defenseless in order to create this show of power. It seems to me that Andor is now burning and the dragon cannons are at risk needlessly because Egwene insists that a bunch of saber rattling is a necessary course of action. The DO has spies everywhere, and I'm sure he is well aware of this meeting. Isn't it the best time to rob the bank when everyone is at the parade?

 

I'm curious what Rand's plan is. If his purpose in manipulating Egwene is to get her to gather the world's armies together at one place, couldn't he have does this without all of the subterfuge? It's not like she is rallying nations in opposition to him. Most of them are more or less loyal to Rand. Couldn't he essentially have said, "This is what we've been preparing for. Bring the house; it's go time."

[Jon Paul]

Bela Sedai, Rand Sedai has a lot on his plate. He cannot do everything himself (as he is often reminded by these fool women ) and so has out-sourced work. Why are the nations bringing all their military power to the FoM? Not because Egwene needs them but because Rand Sedai needs them which means the Pattern needs them.

 

Egwene's self-justification will no doubt be something stupid about "forcing her hand". If Rand Sedai could stand in the Hall of the Sitters and not be touched, if even Warders who are considered wolves on very thin leashes look sheepish around him, what the hell can she really do I wonder ?

 

But then again Egwene thinks the very Pattern its self is wrong and must bend to her almighty.. awesomeness.

[ranjitb]

But then again Egwene thinks the very Pattern its self is wrong and must bend to her almighty.. awesomeness.

 

I actually don't have a problem with this....the problem (getting meta for an instant) is that the BOOKs think Egwene is always right and always awesome.

 

The most common defence of her behavior is "Well, she is no less arrogant than Rand !!!". Well true, but every single other character in the entire series is ALWAYS harping about how Rand is going down the wrong path, all the mistakes he is making and how he needs to change etc.

Entire books and storylines have been devoted to Rand descent into darkness and possible last minute redemption.

And Towers of Midnight was nothing except a giant world-wide apology tour. Every single scene started out with "Oh I'm sorry for all the mistakes I made, let me make it up to you..."

 

To me personally (and I draw the line here I won't project onto anyone else) the most hair-pulling frustration inducing part of reading the Egwene storyline is that no matter how badly she behaves, or how awfully she treats people, or any mistakes she makes, Egwene ALWAYS comes out on top, and more importantly is ALWAYS treated as the most-awesome-thing-ever by everyone around her for seemingly no reason at all.

The only person to oppose her, Elaida, was quickly reduced to a semi-psychotic blubbering alcoholic who will be treated as a wild dog for the rest of her life.

 

And the new theory being bandied about, this supposed Halima-compulsion makes we want to stab myself because what it essentially says is "Oh no, Egwene is WAY to awesome to ever behave badly on her own, she must have been secretly brainwashed !" thus even further removing the possibility that a particularly egregious mary-sue character is called to account.

[David Selig]

 

To me personally (and I draw the line here I won't project onto anyone else) the most hair-pulling frustration inducing part of reading the Egwene storyline is that no matter how badly she behaves, or how awfully she treats people, or any mistakes she makes, Egwene ALWAYS comes out on top, and more importantly is ALWAYS treated as the most-awesome-thing-ever by everyone around her for seemingly no reason at all.

I totally agree. Everyone around her quickly starts to respect her, even if they see her make a blunder or if they are treated badly by her. Somehow she manages to win over people without doing much, yet when she makes a mistake, nobody is there to criticize her and nobody loses respect for her. She managed to commit just about the biggest blunder possible during the Tower split by getting herself captured by the other side, yet somehow nearly everyone stayed behind her and didn't lose confidence in her. In ToM, her idiotic insistence that the murders by knife must've been the work of Mesaana, almost had her and Gawyn killed. But of course, nobody criticized her for that, not even Gawyn, poor guy was even afraid she will mad at him for saving her life against her commands from earlier.

 

I still don't get why the Wise Ones respect her so much. She lied to them, broke many times the word she gave to Amys to obey her while she was trained by her. Yes, she admitted it in the end and took the beating as a punishment, but she still lied blatantly. And of course, she admitted only when she was about to leave, so it wouldn't stop her from learning more. She used the Wise Ones in the most selfish way and in the process lied to them often, yet for some reason this only led to them thinking she's an amazing person.

 

Even the people she blackmailed into swearing an oath of fealty to her, didn't hate her for that and respected her.

 

I'm curious what Rand's plan is. If his purpose in manipulating Egwene is to get her to gather the world's armies together at one place, couldn't he have does this without all of the subterfuge? It's not like she is rallying nations in opposition to him. Most of them are more or less loyal to Rand. Couldn't he essentially have said, "This is what we've been preparing for. Bring the house; it's go time

Because Rand knows Egwene. If he had said so, she would have done the opposite, she can't allow to be commanded by a man after all.