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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

The Dark One is being played!!


cap10kirk
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I was perusing the net last night and reading about the Norse god, Odin. It's really interesting the connection between Odin and Mat. I started reading about Ragnarok and how it relates to Tarmon Gai'don. Suddenly, I realized that the Dark One WILL NEVER win. We know very little about the DO's nature, but we know this, he's not omnipotent. The creator is. The creator imprisoned the DO, which means the DO's prison is stronger than the DO. The fact that the creator can create a prison to hold the DO, then go about his business doing his thing, tells me that this fight is fixed.

 

Sure, the DO causes all kinds of grief throughout the ages, but he'll never really win. Breaking the world is one thing. Breaking the wheel? Not going to happen. The DO is apart of the scheme of things, like a hurricane or an earthquake. It's terrible and destructive, but it's apart of life. The creator can handle the DO, but the DO can't handle the creator. I believe the DO thinks he can win. The creator needs the DO to continue to play his game. The Last Battle is going to be destructive and terrible. It'll also usher in a new age. I can't fathom a reason why the creator does it like this. It's just the way it is.

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We have no reason to accept that the Creator is omnipotent but Shai'tan isn't. We have no reason to accept that Shai'tan can't ever win. If I built a wall to imprison you, does that mean I am omnipotent but you aren't, because you can't escape? No. Nor does it mean I am stronger than you. And the fact you haven't escaped yet doesn't mean you never will. Give it time, that wall will fall.

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Given that the Dark One is "the antithesis of the Creator" (from the glossary in LoC, I think) and the Wheel seeking a balance, I have always assumed that the Creator is female. The DO may be stronger, but the Creator is better at manipulating people and events. Since humans are the Creator's "children", she challenges them with the problem of the Dark One and subtly guides them to deal with it, learning and growing as they do. It's a character building exercise. Perhaps she hopes that her people will evolve into a higher plane of consciousness, turning the Wheel into an upward spiral. And, like many Moms, she's continually disappointed in her children.

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I think it is safe to say that the creator is omnipotent. His(her) will created the wheel, the universe, the world, the DO's prison. It's the creator's game and his(her) rules. By the very fact that the DO is imprisoned and can't simply will himself free means that he is not omnipotent. I agree that the Do is the antithesis of the creator, however, that does not mean that the DO is the equal to the creator. The DO is strong enough to break the wheel and recreate reality. I just feel that the creator won't let it happen.

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I don't know about Norse mythology but from the books we don't know anything about the Creator. If we're taking it for fact that he exists then it doesn't necessarily mean he's omnipotent or omniscient unless you want to compare him directly to the God figure. The Creator has many worlds. If he can't even be bothered to intervene in this one I don't really think it matters all that much to him if chaos is wrecked and the DO breaks free. Maybe the DO can break free and destroy the Wheel but the Creator being omnipotent could just seal it off and make a new world. Doesn't mean that TG is already won.. But then again it might be because humans being restricted wouldn't be able to understand the Creators intentions. So who knows? Entering dangerous territory here..

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Hmm, not sure why but the impression I've gotten from the story has always been that the DO is just some sort of overpowered forsaken-he is near identical to Ishy in everything except power. While the creator is more of an ideal that pushes the champions of the light(ie The Dragon) to defeat the DO simply by being. I don't believe the creator truly has a manifestation, it is just the overriding will of the universe.

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I think it is safe to say that the creator is omnipotent. His(her) will created the wheel, the universe, the world, the DO's prison. It's the creator's game and his(her) rules. By the very fact that the DO is imprisoned and can't simply will himself free means that he is not omnipotent. I agree that the Do is the antithesis of the creator, however, that does not mean that the DO is the equal to the creator. The DO is strong enough to break the wheel and recreate reality. I just feel that the creator won't let it happen.

So I'm sitting here thinking about what you suggest, and I'm trying to imagine what a less-than-omnipotent "creator" would look like. The Randland version of the creator is one which a deist would describe - one which put the world into motion but does not intervene, one which makes no revelations giving his/her creation any philosophical or theological basis for a moral code, one which neither works miracles for his/her progeny nor receives their adoration or worship.

 

And I'm looking at your avatar...

 

Hmmmm... No philosophical instruction or moral/ethical code... No miracles... A non-interference directive, perhaps?

 

Puts the world into motion, then takes no other generative action... A Project Genesis, perhaps? A technology which one is capable of building and launching, but not capable of steering or containing?

 

Imprisons an opponent in a nearly impregnible cell, even though s/he is really no stronger than said opponent... A cell surrounded by a force-field which could only be breached by a magnetic field disruptor, and said opponent was stripped of weapons and tools before being cast inside...

 

Looks like the so-called Creator might be Captain Kirk.

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The way I see it (I don't have any hardcore evidence, so you can just ignore this. We don't have much information about the real nature of the creator nor the darkone from the books)

The darkone isn't locked in any "cell" creator made for him. It's more like a creator build the world and left the darkone out. The "prison" is more like a fort that keeps the darkone out and he tries to tear it down to get into the world like an invader sieging a town.

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I think it is safe to say that the creator is omnipotent. His(her) will created the wheel, the universe, the world, the DO's prison. It's the creator's game and his(her) rules. By the very fact that the DO is imprisoned and can't simply will himself free means that he is not omnipotent. I agree that the Do is the antithesis of the creator, however, that does not mean that the DO is the equal to the creator. The DO is strong enough to break the wheel and recreate reality. I just feel that the creator won't let it happen.
Given there is no evidence to suggest it, I don't think it is safe to say that the Creator is omnipotent. In fact, given that the theological underpinnings of the series are more Zoroastrian than they are Christian, I think looking at things in terms of all powerful God and the Devil, who is rather less powerful, is a mistake.
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I think it is safe to say that the creator is omnipotent. His(her) will created the wheel, the universe, the world, the DO's prison. It's the creator's game and his(her) rules. By the very fact that the DO is imprisoned and can't simply will himself free means that he is not omnipotent. I agree that the Do is the antithesis of the creator, however, that does not mean that the DO is the equal to the creator. The DO is strong enough to break the wheel and recreate reality. I just feel that the creator won't let it happen.

So I'm sitting here thinking about what you suggest, and I'm trying to imagine what a less-than-omnipotent "creator" would look like. The Randland version of the creator is one which a deist would describe - one which put the world into motion but does not intervene, one which makes no revelations giving his/her creation any philosophical or theological basis for a moral code, one which neither works miracles for his/her progeny nor receives their adoration or worship.

 

And I'm looking at your avatar...

 

Hmmmm... No philosophical instruction or moral/ethical code... No miracles... A non-interference directive, perhaps?

 

Puts the world into motion, then takes no other generative action... A Project Genesis, perhaps? A technology which one is capable of building and launching, but not capable of steering or containing?

 

Imprisons an opponent in a nearly impregnible cell, even though s/he is really no stronger than said opponent... A cell surrounded by a force-field which could only be breached by a magnetic field disruptor, and said opponent was stripped of weapons and tools before being cast inside...

 

Looks like the so-called Creator might be Captain Kirk.

LOL. That's pretty good, but I'm nowhere near smart enough to make those connections.

 

Given there is no evidence to suggest it, I don't think it is safe to say that the Creator is omnipotent. In fact, given that the theological underpinnings of the series are more Zoroastrian than they are Christian, I think looking at things in terms of all powerful God and the Devil, who is rather less powerful, is a mistake.

I guess it really doesn't matter if the creator is omnipotent or not, the creator just has to be stronger than the DO. And I believe the creator is more powerful, because the DO clearly does not want to be locked up. In the beginning, the creator created. He promptly snatched up his evil twin tossed him in jail. I'm sure the DO didn't go to jail willingly.

 

Like I said earlier, I'm FAR from a scholar or a philosopher. I know absolutely nothing about Zoroastrianism or any other isms for that matter. It's just my gut feeling.

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Given there is no evidence to suggest it, I don't think it is safe to say that the Creator is omnipotent. In fact, given that the theological underpinnings of the series are more Zoroastrian than they are Christian, I think looking at things in terms of all powerful God and the Devil, who is rather less powerful, is a mistake.

I guess it really doesn't matter if the creator is omnipotent or not, the creator just has to be stronger than the DO. And I believe the creator is more powerful, because the DO clearly does not want to be locked up. In the beginning, the creator created. He promptly snatched up his evil twin tossed him in jail. I'm sure the DO didn't go to jail willingly.

 

Like I said earlier, I'm FAR from a scholar or a philosopher. I know absolutely nothing about Zoroastrianism or any other isms for that matter. It's just my gut feeling.

But as I explained earlier, Shai'tan being imprisoned doesn't mean the Creator is stronger. It's a possible interpretation, true, but not the only one.
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Like I said earlier, I'm FAR from a scholar or a philosopher. I know absolutely nothing about Zoroastrianism or any other isms for that matter. It's just my gut feeling.

 

Zoroastrians believe in TWO gods, a good one and an evil one. The good one is sufficiently in charge that he can reward good people after death, and will eventually win the cosmic battle against the evil one, but the evil one is still powerful. And, most importantly, they're both uncreated, unlike in Christianity where God creates the devil.

 

The Zoroastrian position (which you can also call dualism) seems a LOT closer to the WOT-world than the Christian one. The fact that the DO has his own Power strongly suggests that he's an uncreated being opposed to the Creator. As for how the Creator ever won against him--well, I would say that's a philosophical weakness inherent in dualism.

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But as I explained earlier, Shai'tan being imprisoned doesn't mean the Creator is stronger. It's a possible interpretation, true, but not the only one.

I feel ya.

 

 

Zoroastrians believe in TWO gods, a good one and an evil one. The good one is sufficiently in charge that he can reward good people after death, and will eventually win the cosmic battle against the evil one, but the evil one is still powerful. And, most importantly, they're both uncreated, unlike in Christianity where God creates the devil.

 

The Zoroastrian position (which you can also call dualism) seems a LOT closer to the WOT-world than the Christian one. The fact that the DO has his own Power strongly suggests that he's an uncreated being opposed to the Creator. As for how the Creator ever won against him--well, I would say that's a philosophical weakness inherent in dualism.

Okay, I see where you guys are coming from. You gotta give it to RJ. He creates a mythology that spawns discussions.

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But as I explained earlier, Shai'tan being imprisoned doesn't mean the Creator is stronger. It's a possible interpretation, true, but not the only one.

I feel ya.

 

 

Zoroastrians believe in TWO gods, a good one and an evil one. The good one is sufficiently in charge that he can reward good people after death, and will eventually win the cosmic battle against the evil one, but the evil one is still powerful. And, most importantly, they're both uncreated, unlike in Christianity where God creates the devil.

 

The Zoroastrian position (which you can also call dualism) seems a LOT closer to the WOT-world than the Christian one. The fact that the DO has his own Power strongly suggests that he's an uncreated being opposed to the Creator. As for how the Creator ever won against him--well, I would say that's a philosophical weakness inherent in dualism.

Okay, I see where you guys are coming from. You gotta give it to RJ. He creates a mythology that spawns discussions.

 

I think that's the best thing about epic fantasy. I love the cool factor as much as the next guy or girl, but what really interests me is how fantasy plays with Big Questions without getting all ironic about it.

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