Cyndane

[doomsgate]

a couple thoughts here.

 

1. when exactly did LTT leave Meirin pre/post bore?

 

2. if Meirin led the actual drilling then she might have touched the DO by accident.

 

3. i didnt read it so much as Meiren broke into Rands dream as he went to another dream. his link to morridon might account for this.

[billegoat]

hasn't anyone thought this could be a setup by moridin, who obviously knows of LTT and lanfear's history?

[nolirion]

hasn't anyone thought this could be a setup by moridin, who obviously knows of LTT and lanfear's history?

Yeah it is shared by those who think lanfear wan't redemption and those who affirm she is evil to her core

[Lironah]

hasn't anyone thought this could be a setup by moridin, who obviously knows of LTT and lanfear's history?

Yeah it is shared by those who think lanfear wan't redemption and those who affirm she is evil to her core

 

Given Lanfear's actions, I'd be with the 'wants redemption' camp. But yeah, it's quite feasible for it to be a trap either way.

[Kestrel]

Given Lanfear's actions, I'd be with the 'wants redemption' camp. But yeah, it's quite feasible for it to be a trap either way.

I'd say its more like "wants rescue" than "wants redemption". Let's hope Rand doesn't fall for it that easily.

 

I've met her sort before in real life. It's all about HER. When she's in deep doo-doo she wants everyone to come to her aid. But when she gets pulled out of the doo-doo she uncaringly flings it off her dress onto everyone else, then claims they deserve it for not being "considerate" of her needs. And if you balk at her attitude shift, she'll wad up a gooey ball of the doo-doo and throw it in your face.

 

Pathetic creature undeserving of pity. I wonder what she did to become Shaidar Haran's plaything?

[Sharaman]

Given Lanfear's actions, I'd be with the 'wants redemption' camp. But yeah, it's quite feasible for it to be a trap either way.

I'd say its more like "wants rescue" than "wants redemption". Let's hope Rand doesn't fall for it that easily.

 

I've met her sort before in real life. It's all about HER. When she's in deep doo-doo she wants everyone to come to her aid. But when she gets pulled out of the doo-doo she uncaringly flings it off her dress onto everyone else, then claims they deserve it for not being "considerate" of her needs. And if you balk at her attitude shift, she'll wad up a gooey ball of the doo-doo and throw it in your face.

 

Pathetic creature undeserving of pity. I wonder what she did to become Shaidar Haran's plaything?

Went Apeshit at the Carhein docks

[r2debo]

2 things I think Lanfear got from the Snakes and Foxes:

 

1. The ability to access Rand's dreams. I think that's an obvious one seeing as how it doesn't seem possible for her to have that access otherwise.

2. Rand now desires her. I'm not sure how the Snakes and Foxes could do that but the clue to me was the description of his desire: it was like a "viper". I may be looking to much into a descriptive term but I don't think that is an accidental word. I think it points to the Finns and means big trouble for Rand.

[Tiinker]

Hmm.. When i read it I understood it as the desire he always had rather than it being something new.

[nolirion]

2 things I think Lanfear got from the Snakes and Foxes:

 

1. The ability to access Rand's dreams. I think that's an obvious one seeing as how it doesn't seem possible for her to have that access otherwise.

2. Rand now desires her. I'm not sure how the Snakes and Foxes could do that but the clue to me was the description of his desire: it was like a "viper". I may be looking to much into a descriptive term but I don't think that is an accidental word. I think it points to the Finns and means big trouble for Rand.

1She always had this ability

2 Rand had always some desires for her , he don't love her

I don't know what she had from the snakes and foxes but why asking what she had already?

[dwn]

2 things I think Lanfear got from the Snakes and Foxes:

 

1. The ability to access Rand's dreams. I think that's an obvious one seeing as how it doesn't seem possible for her to have that access otherwise.

 

Lanfear always claimed to be able to do that, but suggested that Rand wouldn't like it if she did. I expect it's just a matter of breaking through the wards he sets. In the epilogue scene, since Rand is in a lucid dream of his own, it's also possible that she was drawn into his dream "accidentally on purpose". Similar to how Egwene is drawn into Gawyn's dream in LoC.

 

2. Rand now desires her. I'm not sure how the Snakes and Foxes could do that but the clue to me was the description of his desire: it was like a "viper". I may be looking to much into a descriptive term but I don't think that is an accidental word. I think it points to the Finns and means big trouble for Rand.

 

It makes more sense that Rand always had a lingering desire for Mierin, even if he didn't want to acknowledge it. It also seems likely that the Eelfinn could only grant a wish that affects the wisher directly. I agree that Lanfear would make a wish to regain LTT's love, but the result of such a wish would be a change in her, not a change in him. (Unless the Eelfinn just gave her a bottle of tequila and some baby oil.)

 

-- dwn

[balefireruinssteaks]

Lanfear is the most beautiful woman anywhere.

 

It doesn't seem too far fetched for any man to have some desire for her. Perrin says she's beautiful, even Min says so when Lanfear finds her in ebou dar, so desire and love are definitely different things.

 

not that Min desired her per se, but you know what I mean.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Its a trap 99%. There is no way Lanfear is turning back to the Light.

 

1. We see in the Epilogue just before this Shaidar Haran and Graendal. SH says the task of bringing Rand pain and sorrow has been given to another. THen pages later Lanfear turns up in his dream troubling Rand seriously for the first time since VoG.

 

2. IF anyone had any doubts

Letter to Carolyn Fusinato from RJ - 1 February 1994

 

 

Now about how evil the Forsaken are. I'm not really sure you define evil. Part of what I am writing about is just how ordinary evil is. In many ways, without the One Power, the Forsaken would be no more than Darkfriends, though perhaps a bit more than ordinary. True, their callousness toward the pain, suffering, even death of ordinary people, and the way they submerge everything and everyone in their own quest for power--and true immortality--their willingness to deliver the world to the Dark One in that quest, are shared by many who do not have their powers. The point is that they are human; they haven't gotten rid of human emotions, or human weaknesses except for a few physical ones. They are not gods, nor even demi-gods, though they seek to be and think they already are. But believe me, there is nothing they will not do to achieve their goals, no price too high to pay--especially if it is paid by someone else, or millions of someone else's. And Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.

[nolirion]

Lanfear is the most beautiful woman anywhere.

 

It doesn't seem too far fetched for any man to have some desire for her. Perrin says she's beautiful, even Min says so when Lanfear finds her in ebou dar, so desire and love are definitely different things.

 

not that Min desired her per se, but you know what I mean.

Lanfear is dead Cyndane rise instead, the desire Rand felt was in memory of what she was

[FarShainMael]

When Rand wakes, he's going to be thinking: 'That was Lanfear. But I saw her die. Hang on.. I also saw Moiraine die.. What if..'

[RahulSingh]

She lies a lot. To Rand and the other Forsaken as well.

She get a sadistic charge out of hassling Asmo in his dreams after she's bound him.

She skins a DF who's giving her info in TFOh because she doesn't like the info.

She frames another DF in TSR and exposes her to a death sentence because she doesn't like the woman and is jealous of her.

She slices up a DF n WH simply because she happens to be talking to him when the cleansing starts and she can't be bothered.

Of course those killings have ample cause and are completely justified.

It doesn't matter.

All can be forgiven because she's hot and she was indeed prepared to dump GLoD if she could have gotten away with it.

hasnt she done all this to DF's? granted she did this stuff for her own purposes still she didnt do it to people who didnt deserve it.

[Sharaman]

She lies a lot. To Rand and the other Forsaken as well.

She get a sadistic charge out of hassling Asmo in his dreams after she's bound him.

She skins a DF who's giving her info in TFOh because she doesn't like the info.

She frames another DF in TSR and exposes her to a death sentence because she doesn't like the woman and is jealous of her.

She slices up a DF n WH simply because she happens to be talking to him when the cleansing starts and she can't be bothered.

Of course those killings have ample cause and are completely justified.

It doesn't matter.

All can be forgiven because she's hot and she was indeed prepared to dump GLoD if she could have gotten away with it.

hasnt she done all this to DF's? granted she did this stuff for her own purposes still she didnt do it to people who didnt deserve it.

Yes and she's hot as well - never forget that.

[Yehosh]

Doesn't Lanfear know a thing or 2 about the structure of the bore? I mean she is the one that drilled the hole in the first place. she might help Rand figure out what needs to be done.

 

My gut feeling is telling me it's a trap, but this is WOT and RJ we're talking about and my gut feeling is wrong 90% of the time as RJ/BS manage to surprise us over and over again.

[dwn]

Even if Cyndane has decided to turn from the Shadow, it doesn't mean she's automatically a good person again. At one end of the spectrum she may be seeking redemption; at the other she may simply be upset with her (relatively) low position among the Chosen. There's a lot of middle ground there.

 

A 'reformed' (redeemed is too strong) Mierin would just fit nicely into the story. A wish from the Eelfin, intentionally or not, starts her questioning her allegiance. Her mindtrapping continues it, and reveals her betrayal to Moridin. Moridin and Shadar Haran use her as bait for Rand. A rescued Mierin gives some useful information on sealing the bore.

 

-- dwn

[Hatrel]

Sure,think about it. She was the one that located the "weakening of the Pattern" that allowed her to drill into the DO's prison. She would have knowledge of the makeup of the prison, what powers or combination of powers and weaves that were able to penetrate the prison and the methods. This knowledge could allow Rand to create a proper patch for the prison.

 

I think that he is planning on a proper patch versus what some think that he is going to rebuild the prison. And actually, his patch will not be perfect. As the wheel turns, someone will detect the "weakening of the Pattern" in another age and drill into it the same as happened in the AoL. I mean, how could the Creator have made the prison with this major flaw in it? I think that, as is often quoted, man cannot match what the Creator made. But it must be done this way so that someone in the next AoL can drill into it and allow the DO to touch the world again.

 

I get the feeling that it is a trap, but that Cynbfear will do what she feels is best for her. I cannot wait to see how this is all going to play out!!

[Sharaman]

Sure,think about it. She was the one that located the "weakening of the Pattern" that allowed her to drill into the DO's prison. She would have knowledge of the makeup of the prison, what powers or combination of powers and weaves that were able to penetrate the prison and the methods. This knowledge could allow Rand to create a proper patch for the prison.

 

I think that he is planning on a proper patch versus what some think that he is going to rebuild the prison. And actually, his patch will not be perfect. As the wheel turns, someone will detect the "weakening of the Pattern" in another age and drill into it the same as happened in the AoL. I mean, how could the Creator have made the prison with this major flaw in it? I think that, as is often quoted, man cannot match what the Creator made. But it must be done this way so that someone in the next AoL can drill into it and allow the DO to touch the world again.

 

I get the feeling that it is a trap, but that Cynbfear will do what she feels is best for her. I cannot wait to see how this is all going to play out!!

I'd love to see her reaction when she learns LTT has slept with three women and gotten bonded to a fourth.

Mindtrap / no mindtrap and reformation/ redemption regardless, that should be entertainment of a high order.

[Hatrel]

Sure,think about it. She was the one that located the "weakening of the Pattern" that allowed her to drill into the DO's prison. She would have knowledge of the makeup of the prison, what powers or combination of powers and weaves that were able to penetrate the prison and the methods. This knowledge could allow Rand to create a proper patch for the prison.

 

I think that he is planning on a proper patch versus what some think that he is going to rebuild the prison. And actually, his patch will not be perfect. As the wheel turns, someone will detect the "weakening of the Pattern" in another age and drill into it the same as happened in the AoL. I mean, how could the Creator have made the prison with this major flaw in it? I think that, as is often quoted, man cannot match what the Creator made. But it must be done this way so that someone in the next AoL can drill into it and allow the DO to touch the world again.

 

I get the feeling that it is a trap, but that Cynbfear will do what she feels is best for her. I cannot wait to see how this is all going to play out!!

I'd love to see her reaction when she learns LTT has slept with three women and gotten bonded to a fourth.

Mindtrap / no mindtrap and reformation/ redemption regardless, that should be entertainment of a high order.

 

LOL! so true. And couple that with Elayne being pregnant, and the fact that from Min we know that Avi is going to be pregnant (might have happened in the 20+ days that we are missing Rand, who knows) Cynfear is going to FLIP!

[Guest the_woad]

I have no opinion on whether Lanfear is seeking redemption or if she is shadow-for-life...

 

But I do not think this is a trap for Rand. Why? The description of the "room" and Rand's weird link to Moridin.

 

Let's start with a little background.

1. We know Moridin's and Rand's dreams converged in The Gathering Storm. Neither of the two sought out the other, as evidenced by Moridin's surprise. Furthermore, it seems unlikely it was the dreamworld and more likely it was actually Moridin's own dream. I think this because of the similarities of Rand's dream in the epilogue and Moridin's in The Gathering Storm. In Rand's dream [ToM], he is sitting in peace on a boulder in nature alone with his thoughts getting some R&R. In Moridin's dream [TGS], he is his black chamber of solitude having a drink and relaxing by the fire. I don't think Moridin goes to Telarianod (sp?) to rest and think. I think he uses his own dreams for R&R like new-Rand.
    
   
2. We know Lanfear/Cyndane is mind-trapped to Moridin ... and other than mindtraps being a thing of the shadow we really know nothing of their purpose or use. We just know that nobody wants to be on the wrong end of one. Sanderson has been quoted using the phrase "gun on the mantle," referring to seeds planted earlier in the plot that have been set up but not yet explored [13x13 being one]. The mind-trap could very well be one of these guns on the mantle that need to be explained or used.
   

 

And now, on to the epilogue

1. Sanderson goes out of his way to describe the room Rand enters as the inside of a skull. The walls feel like bone, the shape is round, etc. What do skulls contain?... Minds
   
2. We know Rand and Moridin have unintentionally merged a dream in the past.
   

 

What am I getting at?

1. Rand and Moridin are in a converged dream.
   
2. Rand has stumbled upon Lanfear's mindtrap in Moridin's mind.
   
3. Does Lanfear want to turn from the Shadow? I don't know. But she sure as shit wants out of the mind-trap.
   

 

Why do I not think she is bait?

1. Rand has at no point in the series shown any previous desire for Lanfear [excluding "Selene"]. He doesn't want anything to do with her. If anything, he has been terrified of her. Surely the shadow could come up with better bait.
   
2. Ishamael has already used this tactic on Rand with Kari al'Thor and others.
   
3. Maybe I'm a sucker, but Lanfear seems genuinely terrified.
   

 

What have I not accounted for?

1. Lanfear's negotiations with the Aelfinn/ Eelfinn.
   
2. Moridin's negotiations with the Aelfinn/ Eelfinn (as he rescued Lanfear).
   
3. Rand's new "viperish" desire.
   
4. The Shadar Haran quote, "That opportunity has been given to another." But honestly guys, this could be anything. I think it's timely placement is misdirection. And what did Graendal say to get that response? "Al'Thor thinks I am dead, so I can..." This implies stealth. Lanfear in Rand's dreams is not stealthy.
   
5. Lanfear falling away into blackness at the end of the narration.
   
6. Why isn't Moghedan present if Rand found Lanfear's mind-trap?
   

 

Also, and this has nothing to do with anything, but I do not think Rand accessed the True Power via Moridin. That seems lame. I think that honor came straight from the Dark One.

[Randommer]

Lanfear has always been one of the big question marks of the story... She's clearly a nasty piece of work (and seemingly always was) but then why was LTT involved with her? I don't think the 'desire' Rand felt for her was the result of a wish from the ter'angreal, but rather a ghost from LTT's past (a past we're still very unfamiliar with, considering he is now the main character). I think that, whether the dream was a trap or not, Rand/LTT won't be able to resist investigating, and trap or not, Lanfear will play a far more major role than anyone thought in AMoL. I very much like the theory that she'll help defeat the DO with her Forsaken and Bore-drilling knowledge, but there's a thousand possibilities... The only thing we know for sure is she'll do something psycho.

[didymos]

Given Lanfear's actions, I'd be with the 'wants redemption' camp. But yeah, it's quite feasible for it to be a trap either way.

I'd say its more like "wants rescue" than "wants redemption". Let's hope Rand doesn't fall for it that easily.

 

I've met her sort before in real life. It's all about HER. When she's in deep doo-doo she wants everyone to come to her aid. But when she gets pulled out of the doo-doo she uncaringly flings it off her dress onto everyone else, then claims they deserve it for not being "considerate" of her needs. And if you balk at her attitude shift, she'll wad up a gooey ball of the doo-doo and throw it in your face.

 

Pathetic creature undeserving of pity. I wonder what she did to become Shaidar Haran's plaything?

Went Apeshit at the Carhein docks

 

Apparently not:

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 24 October 1998, Palo Alto - Drew Gillmore reporting

 

Chris asked if Moghedien had been raped by Shaidar Haran. The answer was "Yes, among other things."...someone asked if Lanfear had been raped as well, and he answered right away with a "No".

 

 

Or at least, a very curiously delayed consequence. This assumes she was even referring to SH at all, instead of just talking about awful things being done to her in order to sell the con.

[Entreri]

Perrin coming to Rand's rescue in TAR?

 

Ishamael has tasked Lanfear with trapping Rand, possibly with the help of Moghidien.

 

What can they do to the new DR? At this point, I figure Rand (having overcome the max male base Power level, i.e the 13 AS were terrified while holding his shield, Egwene said he could have broken through the shield without struggle, his destruction of a Trolloc Army probably numbering up to 1/2 million) is stronger in the Power than Ishamael, more skilled (being LTT), has the ability to use the True Power.

 

Normally (no sa'angreal or near sa'angreal) even a fully powered Lanfear linked with Moghdien would be completely destroyed by the new DR, women being weaker in the Power.

 

 

 

My speculation:

 

So the trap I figure will be TAR based...Their knowledge of TAR is greater than any other Forsaken or even LTT. Manipulation of TAR rules supreme.

 

Who will save Rand once again? Perrin, who obviously has mad TAR skills, which has probably grown since his acceptance of his wolf part.

 

In TAR, Perrin can stop any Power weave from affecting him, his ability there could be greater than Moghdiens. Anyway, Perrin will be needed twice in order to save Rand (once being Dumai's Well). What can Perrin do against Forsaken? Nothing much, unless in TAR.