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The Aiel Thing in the Epilogue

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The male channelers are a possibility but how many have gone to the Blight in recent years? Can't be a huge number.

Unless the Shadow has put them in stasis boxes or they have a connection to the Dark One allowing them to channel pure saidin and live elongated lives, the number of male Aiel channelers has to be low.

 

 

 

Well they'd live 600 or so years if we assume they're protected by the Taint. Plus there'd be breeding which will produce even more channelers.

Last I checked, males needed females to breed, so unless you are suggesting trollocs as the partners for the male Aiel channelers...

 

As has been mentioned before, the red veiled people in the epilogue have exactly 1 thing in common with Aiel, the veils. Not the usage, just the actual piece of cloth.

 

Epilogue People (EP) have dak eyes, Aiel have green, blue grey eyes (recessive traits)

EP unveil to kill, Aiel viel to kill

EP have filed teeth, Aiel have normal teeth

 

Indeed the only thing that makes people call them Aiel is the pov character calling them Aiel to begin with, while his vision is cloudy and he sees them from a bit of distance. Even he says they are not Aiel. For intelligent people, used to looking beyond the obvious, I am stumped as to why there is so much insistence that these red veiled people are Aiel.

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The male channelers are a possibility but how many have gone to the Blight in recent years? Can't be a huge number.

Unless the Shadow has put them in stasis boxes or they have a connection to the Dark One allowing them to channel pure saidin and live elongated lives, the number of male Aiel channelers has to be low.

 

 

 

Well they'd live 600 or so years if we assume they're protected by the Taint. Plus there'd be breeding which will produce even more channelers.

Last I checked, males needed females to breed, so unless you are suggesting trollocs as the partners for the male Aiel channelers...

 

As has been mentioned before, the red veiled people in the epilogue have exactly 1 thing in common with Aiel, the veils. Not the usage, just the actual piece of cloth.

 

Epilogue People (EP) have dak eyes, Aiel have green, blue grey eyes (recessive traits)

EP unveil to kill, Aiel viel to kill

EP have filed teeth, Aiel have normal teeth

 

Indeed the only thing that makes people call them Aiel is the pov character calling them Aiel to begin with, while his vision is cloudy and he sees them from a bit of distance. Even he says they are not Aiel. For intelligent people, used to looking beyond the obvious, I am stumped as to why there is so much insistence that these red veiled people are Aiel.

 

Nah I fully believe there's at least one city / society in the Blight. We've already seen people in the Blight working for Moridin, it's silly to think there would be no females especially since they use humans to make the Fade blades.

 

And the unveiling is even more evidence, it's the yin to the Aiel's veiling yang if you will. Which is quite a big part of the story.

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The male channelers are a possibility but how many have gone to the Blight in recent years? Can't be a huge number.

Unless the Shadow has put them in stasis boxes or they have a connection to the Dark One allowing them to channel pure saidin and live elongated lives, the number of male Aiel channelers has to be low.

 

 

 

Well they'd live 600 or so years if we assume they're protected by the Taint. Plus there'd be breeding which will produce even more channelers.

Last I checked, males needed females to breed, so unless you are suggesting trollocs as the partners for the male Aiel channelers...

 

As has been mentioned before, the red veiled people in the epilogue have exactly 1 thing in common with Aiel, the veils. Not the usage, just the actual piece of cloth.

 

Epilogue People (EP) have dak eyes, Aiel have green, blue grey eyes (recessive traits)

EP unveil to kill, Aiel viel to kill

EP have filed teeth, Aiel have normal teeth

 

Indeed the only thing that makes people call them Aiel is the pov character calling them Aiel to begin with, while his vision is cloudy and he sees them from a bit of distance. Even he says they are not Aiel. For intelligent people, used to looking beyond the obvious, I am stumped as to why there is so much insistence that these red veiled people are Aiel.

 

Nah I fully believe there's at least one city / society in the Blight. We've already seen people in the Blight working for Moridin, it's silly to think there would be no females especially since they use humans to make the Fade blades.

 

And the unveiling is even more evidence, it's the yin to the Aiel's veiling yang if you will. Which is quite a big part of the story.

I'm going to call you out on those.

1) Your statent is predicated on another (unproven, speculated) theory to be true to make sense.

2) The fact that they are different is proof that they are the same? Really?

 

Even the yin/yang aspect fails (imo) since the veiling / unveiling isn't by any means a large enough play on opposites to invoke the cardinal rule of the WoTverse (the opposition driving the universe).

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~I did a post about this shortly after I had finished the book and have been mulling this over for a while now. I've read everybody elses comments, and don't think any of the arguments stand out as being 'the most WoT acceptable'. So I'll add my theory for your perusal. It may contribute to someone else's.

 

Demandred has been missing for a rather long time. A couple of books ago at the Moridin, Semi, Mesaana and Gren meeting he says that he has marshalled his armies and is ready for his assault. Now we could argue for a very long time where this is but I'm inclined to think it's probobly LoMM. We know that Grendal has her finger in the Shara pie and is probobly controlling the Ayyad over there. Semi was in control of the Seanchan, so no Demandred there. But the LoMM has been ignored, much the same as RJ's treatment of Demandred. Sort of makes me think this is where he is most likely to be.

 

My thoughts on them being from an alternate reality, well it doesn't feel right. We can assume that any world where the Forsaken were imprisoned they were released. So they are fighting TG in that reality. More than one of the same forsaken in a reality might be a bit of a problem, it hasn't happened in this one (yet) so I'm inclined to think that it isn't happening anywhere else.

 

So that leaves us with the Land of Mad Men. Good base for Demandred, out of the way, primitive culture that already murders anyone who turns up there. Avoided by all other people and seems to have no ruling government so easy for Demandred to take over and mobilise.

 

Also at the very start of the book, in chapter one we see ships with red sails attacking the Seanchan mainland, could be other Seanchan, but you all know how important colour is in WoT, so it ties in with the 'Red Aiel' clothing. And no red sails were mentioned anywhere in the chapters about the return or Lielwin's PoV's and you would have thought that a special navy force with red sails would be known about by either Tuon or Leilwin and mentioned at some point.

 

So we have great ships with red sails finishing off the Seanchan mainland. Bye Bye threat from there. It would make sence as a battle commander to wipe out what remains on Seanchan, stopping Tuon from retrieving extra forces through gateways. We have pretend mental Aiel, wearing red tearing up the Borderlands. Not sure if the force attacking Seanchan would have had time to sail to the Eastern Blight but a month passes from the first scene of the book to the end so it might be possible. But Demandred could be attacking with two separate forces. Remember Demandred was ready to mobilise months ago and may have been transporting LoMM warrioirs all over the place under the direction of Moridin. They are wearing his colours.

 

Hope that makes sense guys!

 

Correct me if i am wrong, but do not the Sea Folk drop the men who can channel and do not accept execution off on the LOMM? Could this not explain their understanding of ships?

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nope, i think they are either dropped overboard with a rock tied to their feet or they are left on a desert island. why would they just dump they're male channelers on someone else instead of killing them?

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nope, i think they are either dropped overboard with a rock tied to their feet or they are left on a desert island. why would they just dump they're male channelers on someone else instead of killing them?

 

Um because its an island where both men and women who channel are already crazy and their is no 'civilization' there. Also when they attempted to trade with the LOMM, People from LOMM tried to kill them. I dont remember where i found that so it could be completely false.

 

Also a question,

If you where Ishy and upon waking up one time, you realized that the Aiel (in all their genius) where handing you their entire supply of men who had the spark, Add to that the fact that you have a way of turning them to the shadow forcefully, or just compelling the hell out of them, what would you do?? Let them die trying to 'kill' your lord, OR say thank you to the Aiel and turn them to your cause. Im pretty sure it has also been shown that Ishy has been preparing for the last battle throughout history, (i.e. Seanchan Prophecies, the Black Ajah, Hawkwing vs. White Tower) which would leave me to wonder why a male who could channel would set up only a dark female channeling group. Did he know that Rand was going to set up the Black Tower (not in the prophecies ive seen), and that Taim was going to be completely in charge and be a DF??(Seems like leaving to much to chance) So for Ishy not to take advantage of this would be the most epically stupid thing done by the shadow throughout the series.

Now to answer some questions

 

1. Why are the eyes black? Breeding. Black eyes are only found on 'this' side of the Dragonwall. Trolloc raids collect many men and women from here, presumably some have black eyes. Avi says that she never saw anyone with black eyes til she crossed the dragonwall, i wonder if she has ever seen a sharan?? If she has then that would discount that theory as well based on the color of the eyes.

2. Why use a knife and not the power? Because he likes to kill with his hands (a shadow-souled enjoys killing? IMPOSSIBLE...), Also i would assume not all children of a channeler can channel, so maybe this one is used as a scout or something (We only see one do anything, so we can't make a judgement for the entire group based on the actions of 1 person... That would be like watching Narishma practice with the sword, and go well if he can use the power, why practice the sword?) Also Rand carries a sword, so why is it a shocker that other channelers would carry weapons?

3. Shara is in total chaos, orchestrated by Graendal. If Moridin was in charge of their army, i think he would be slightly pissed off at her for that. Also the Sea Folk trade with them, and i find it hard to believe that they would have no problems with a civilization of cannibals. Maybe Moridin used the Chaos created by Graendal to 'recruit' some sharans.. who knows, maybe some are sharan, Doesn't change the fact that passing up a group of male channelers with the spark (usually more powerful, i.e. Taim was eager to tell Rand about Narishma) being delivered into your lap is insanity at best.

4. Land of Mad Men? Why are they in the blight?? I dont doubt that they will make an appearance as well, (RJ said so in an interview i believe), or maybe they already have over on Seanchan mainland. Or maybe they will attack Tear/Illian in the next book. But logistically why would you bring them from South of everything, where the forces of light will be most vulnerable, (i.e. concentrating on defending from the blight) to throw them into the teeth of those defenses??

And somebody please tell me that the desert island that the Sea Folk drop their male channelers off at is the LOMM (I thought that was how it got its name)?? If it is, then i would put forth wholeheartedly that they are the ones who are seen off the coast of Seanchan. Who other than the Sea Folk could build a ship to cross the Aryth Ocean?(Other than the Seanchan) and they wouldn't forget how boats work because they learned they could channel... Why would you put that scene in the book if its just some random Seanchan Lord?

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Um because its an island where both men and women who channel are already crazy and their is no 'civilization' there.
It's also on the far side of the planet. Why travel thousands of miles over uninterrupted seas to dispose of a panicky (remember, this is the dishonorable option, for cowards who want to live a few days longer before starving to death...) channeler when there are perfectly good barren islands pretty much everywhere?
I dont remember where i found that so it could be completely false.
OK.
Why are the eyes black? Breeding.
So they are not actually Aiel anymore after all, but sort of like the Tinkers, or the Amayar, or the Kaensada hill tribes. OK. That's possible, but let's be clear that they aren't "Aiel".
the Sea Folk trade with them, and i find it hard to believe that they would have no problems with a civilization of cannibals.
Why? And how would they even know? They're restricted to trade enclaves just as the Aiel/Cairhienin traders are.
I dont doubt that they will make an appearance as well, (RJ said so in an interview i believe)
He didn't. He left the possibility of introducing the LotM open, as he does for many things (there's a reason RAFO is a catchphrase), but did not say it would happen.
somebody please tell me that the desert island that the Sea Folk drop their male channelers off at is the LOMM
Plenty of people will tell you that, but there's no proof in the text and the logistics make it implausible.
Who other than the Sea Folk could build a ship to cross the Aryth Ocean?(Other than the Seanchan)
...ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms—oh damn! Edited by moratcorlm

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The Sea Folk don't drop off male channellers on the Land of the Madmen. Here's what Harine told Rand when he asked how the Sea Folk deal with male channellers:

 

“They can either step from the bow of their ship holding a stone which is also tied to their legs, or they can be dropped off on a barren isle with no food or water. The second is considered the more shameful option, but some few do take it, to live for a brief time longer.”

Note the parts in bold. The Land of Madmen is not a barren isle, it's more like continent in size (seven hundred and fifty by five hundred leagues) and can sustain human life, according to the Guide.

 

Besides, as moratcorlm said, it's really unlikely that the Sea Folk would go on journey of thousand leagues just to drop off a male channeller. It's big effort and a big risk too, since he can go crazy at any time.

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The Sea Folk don't drop off male channellers on the Land of the Madmen. Here's what Harine told Rand when he asked how the Sea Folk deal with male channellers:

 

“They can either step from the bow of their ship holding a stone which is also tied to their legs, or they can be dropped off on a barren isle with no food or water. The second is considered the more shameful option, but some few do take it, to live for a brief time longer.”

Note the parts in bold. The Land of Madmen is not a barren isle, it's more like continent in size (seven hundred and fifty by five hundred leagues) and can sustain human life, according to the Guide.

 

Besides, as moratcorlm said, it's really unlikely that the Sea Folk would go on journey of thousand leagues just to drop off a male channeller. It's big effort and a big risk too, since he can go crazy at any time.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me, like i said in my post i wasn't sure.

But even if the sea folk dont drop them off there, demandred could probabally taught them how to make some boats so the point still stands that the LOMM are attacking the Seanchan Mainland.

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Um because its an island where both men and women who channel are already crazy and their is no 'civilization' there.
It's also on the far side of the planet. Why travel thousands of miles over uninterrupted seas to dispose of a panicky (remember, this is the dishonorable option, for cowards who want to live a few days longer before starving to death...) channeler when there are perfectly good barren islands pretty much everywhere?
I dont remember where i found that so it could be completely false.
OK.
Why are the eyes black? Breeding.
So they are not actually Aiel anymore after all, but sort of like the Tinkers, or the Amayar, or the Kaensada hill tribes. OK. That's possible, but let's be clear that they aren't "Aiel".
the Sea Folk trade with them, and i find it hard to believe that they would have no problems with a civilization of cannibals.
Why? And how would they even know? They're restricted to trade enclaves just as the Aiel/Cairhienin traders are.
I dont doubt that they will make an appearance as well, (RJ said so in an interview i believe)
He didn't. He left the possibility of introducing the LotM open, as he does for many things (there's a reason RAFO is a catchphrase), but did not say it would happen.
somebody please tell me that the desert island that the Sea Folk drop their male channelers off at is the LOMM
Plenty of people will tell you that, but there's no proof in the text and the logistics make it implausible.
Who other than the Sea Folk could build a ship to cross the Aryth Ocean?(Other than the Seanchan)
...ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms—oh damn!

 

1. Well considering that the tinkers are the descendants of the only true aiel just as the so-called aiel are, they should probabally still be considered aiel. You are arguing semantics here. If they descend from aiel than they are aiel.

2. Good point about the Sharans not letting them see the cannibalism. Maybe thats why they buy slaves, Like importing beef.

3. Good point on the RAFO, they might not make an appearance, but once again seems like a terrible thing for the shadow to pass up on.

4. Im lost on what your talking about at the end.

 

Also my main 'proof' is that Ishy has shown to think very far forward and i dont see him passing up these opportunites. LOMM stinks of shadow involvement. Civilization never recovered in 3,000 years?

Edited by the Mane of Chaos

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I think we have been overlooking a key detail throughout the series that has been hinting at guys like these since EotW

 

Black-eyed Aiel

 

Bran al'Vere says that to Cenn Buie and has been mentioned many times

 

it connotates a tendancy towards violence I think, could someone chase that down and find many references to someone acting like a black eyed Aiel

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4. Im lost on what your talking about at the end.
I'm just saying that "Who other than the Sea Folk could build a ship to cross the Aryth Ocean?" is a more persuasive argument if it weren't immediately followed by an example of just that. Could the red-sailed ships in Seanchan have been made on the southern continent by male Sea Folk channelers? I suppose, but when we already have two non-Sea Folk examples of civilizations with modern levels of technology building trans-Aryth capable ships (i.e., Artur Hawkwing's empire and the Seanchan) it's hardly the inescapable conclusion. Perhaps – though I don't really think it's likely – they're Sharan ships who took the much shorter path east. Maybe they're even using ship designs copied from the Sharan invasion force Hawkwing sent a thousand years ago. Maybe they're Seanchan Navy locals, partisans of some lord or another, though that raises the question of specifically why the red sails were mentioned. There are lots of possibilities that don't lead down the road to the Land of the Madmen.

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4. Im lost on what your talking about at the end.
I'm just saying that "Who other than the Sea Folk could build a ship to cross the Aryth Ocean?" is a more persuasive argument if it weren't immediately followed by an example of just that. Could the red-sailed ships in Seanchan have been made on the southern continent by male Sea Folk channelers? I suppose, but when we already have two non-Sea Folk examples of civilizations with modern levels of technology building trans-Aryth capable ships (i.e., Artur Hawkwing's empire and the Seanchan) it's hardly the inescapable conclusion. Perhaps – though I don't really think it's likely – they're Sharan ships who took the much shorter path east. Maybe they're even using ship designs copied from the Sharan invasion force Hawkwing sent a thousand years ago. Maybe they're Seanchan Navy locals, partisans of some lord or another, though that raises the question of specifically why the red sails were mentioned. There are lots of possibilities that don't lead down the road to the Land of the Madmen.

 

Sorry, i meant to say 'better' instead of 'other'... I was mostly just trying to answer a question earlier on in the thread which was "how would the LOMM suddenly learn how to make ocean-faring ships?" They very well could be Sharan ships, that would make sense. And i don't buy that they are just a Seanchan lord's ships...(No proof, just dont think so)

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I think we have been overlooking a key detail throughout the series that has been hinting at guys like these since EotW

 

Black-eyed Aiel

 

Bran al'Vere says that to Cenn Buie and has been mentioned many times

 

it connotates a tendancy towards violence I think, could someone chase that down and find many references to someone acting like a black eyed Aiel

The phrase you are thinking of is black-veiled Aiel, as the Aiel put on their black veils just before killing. I did, however, check for the phrase black-eyed Aiel just to be sure, and turned up one mention: WH27, Tenobia refers to Aviendha as a black eyed Aiel. Avi's response is that she doesn't have black eyes and she hadn't seen black eyes save on peddlers before crossing the Dragonwall. Make of that what you will.

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I think the black eyes have something to do with being a Darkfriend. Rand starts mentioning the eyes in TSR, can't remember the exact quote. It involes Hadnan Kadere. I also remember someone mentioning Taims eyes are black. Then in ToM rand can tell Darkfriends by looking them in the eyes.

 

So i think they could very well be Aiel turned to the shadow.

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I think the black eyes have something to do with being a Darkfriend. Rand starts mentioning the eyes in TSR, can't remember the exact quote. It involes Hadnan Kadere. I also remember someone mentioning Taims eyes are black. Then in ToM rand can tell Darkfriends by looking them in the eyes.

 

So i think they could very well be Aiel turned to the shadow.

So you think turning darkfriend immediately makes your allegience obvious by turning your eyes black?

How do you think anyone doesn't notice a persons eyes changing to black, or are you postulating that turning to the shadow (eventually) is a genetic thing? you are born as a DF?

 

I can accept theories involving magical components turning the eye color - be that through TP, OP, becoming a wolfbrother or other such magical or quasimagical effects, but changing eye color simply by changing allegience is so implausible and improbable that I feel safe saying it is also impossible.

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As I've pointed out in my post on Demandred's army, another big reason to suspect that the red-veiled Aiel are not DF Aiel living in the Blight is that, if there were Aiel DFs in the Blight, surely we'd have heard of it by now - there'd be attacks on the real Aiel, etc. The fact that these Aiel don't turn up until the end of Book 13 strongly suggests that they're new, which in turn suggests that they're part of Demandred's army.

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As I've pointed out in my post on Demandred's army, another big reason to suspect that the red-veiled Aiel are not DF Aiel living in the Blight is that, if there were Aiel DFs in the Blight, surely we'd have heard of it by now - there'd be attacks on the real Aiel, etc. The fact that these Aiel don't turn up until the end of Book 13 strongly suggests that they're new, which in turn suggests that they're part of Demandred's army.

 

why would DF Aiel attack the regular Aiel?? Just because we haven't heard of them yet is not a valid argument. My argument that they are is that it is too good of an opportunity for Ishy to pass up, and he has shown himself skilled at laying the groundwork for groups of the shadow. Why would he pass up the gift of every aiel born with the spark??

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I think the black eyes have something to do with being a Darkfriend. Rand starts mentioning the eyes in TSR, can't remember the exact quote. It involes Hadnan Kadere. I also remember someone mentioning Taims eyes are black. Then in ToM rand can tell Darkfriends by looking them in the eyes.

 

So i think they could very well be Aiel turned to the shadow.

So you think turning darkfriend immediately makes your allegience obvious by turning your eyes black?

How do you think anyone doesn't notice a persons eyes changing to black, or are you postulating that turning to the shadow (eventually) is a genetic thing? you are born as a DF?

 

I can accept theories involving magical components turning the eye color - be that through TP, OP, becoming a wolfbrother or other such magical or quasimagical effects, but changing eye color simply by changing allegience is so implausible and improbable that I feel safe saying it is also impossible.

 

What i ment was that when someone turns to the shadow their eyes slowly change colour. Probably the more they have given themselves over to the shadow the darker their eyes become. It has nothing to do with genetics. Would be similar to the sa of the true power. Rand in TSR seems to beable to tell that Kadere is a darkfriend by looking at his eyes. I think this is also the 1st book where he has LTT voice in his head.

 

I think it was in EotW that Morraine says that Lan and her can only sense people far turned to the shadow or shadow spawn.

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Ok well no one seems to have mentoned this theory so im gonna throw it out there as it was my initial notion when i first finished TOM. I believe that the three suppossed red-veiled "Aiel" are actually three more of the five total gholam created and that is perhaps shown by one: the graceful way he talked of them moving, two their sharp teeth, and the fact that one ripped out his neck with his mouth. so what does anyone think

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Ok well no one seems to have mentoned this theory so im gonna throw it out there as it was my initial notion when i first finished TOM. I believe that the three suppossed red-veiled "Aiel" are actually three more of the five total gholam created and that is perhaps shown by one: the graceful way he talked of them moving, two their sharp teeth, and the fact that one ripped out his neck with his mouth. so what does anyone think

the aiel stabbed him, its just that the peddler focussed on the mouth since it was so 'horrific'

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I think the black eyes have something to do with being a Darkfriend. Rand starts mentioning the eyes in TSR, can't remember the exact quote. It involes Hadnan Kadere. I also remember someone mentioning Taims eyes are black. Then in ToM rand can tell Darkfriends by looking them in the eyes.

 

So i think they could very well be Aiel turned to the shadow.

 

You might have been thinking of the Seia Doon of the Shaido Aiel..

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/organizations/aiel/black_eyes.html

 

Now why, if black eyes are unknown among the Aiel, is there an Aiel clan with that name?

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You might have been thinking of the Seia Doon of the Shaido Aiel..

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/organizations/aiel/black_eyes.html

 

Now why, if black eyes are unknown among the Aiel, is there an Aiel clan with that name?

 

It's possible, and IMO probable, that they aren't named for the colour of their eyes. Just as Knife Hands don't literally have knves for hands or Stone Dogs aren't dogs made of stone.

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Most/ much of Wotland has very mixed genes with some predominant features in certain areas.

IIRC blue/ gray/ green eyes and red/blonde hair are recessive? So they tend to disappear in mixed populations.

The Aiel for whatever reasons, were racially North European and since they didn't interbreed, --.

If you did have Aiel genes mixed with Wetlander genes, you'd get dark-eyes/ hair, etc.

If the GLoD has been breeding Aiel for generations, we're talking about male channelers who would have been impregnating captured Borderlander women.

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You might have been thinking of the Seia Doon of the Shaido Aiel..

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/organizations/aiel/black_eyes.html

 

Now why, if black eyes are unknown among the Aiel, is there an Aiel clan with that name?

 

It's possible, and IMO probable, that they aren't named for the colour of their eyes. Just as Knife Hands don't literally have knves for hands or Stone Dogs aren't dogs made of stone.

 

The mind boggles.. I take your point; but, 'black eyes' are possible, unlike an Aiel version of Edward Scissorhands. I was just wondering if there had indeed once been a black-eyed strain of Aiel. If so, as Sharaman reminds me, they would be dominant and should have spread throughout the population, unless they were removed by some means - migration, perhaps. Although it's unlikely that turning DF would change one's eye colour, they might have been thought to be DFs - so they were chased off, and maybe ended up in the Blight!

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