The Aiel Thing in the Epilogue

[Orderofolde]

I don't ever see the DO or the Creator dying, they are equal and opposite opposing forces that drive time and the pattern itself. If one dies they both die from the way I understand it.

[Siswai_Dar]

I agree with Orderofolde- 'there's no light without darkness', besides after all and despite everything rand is only human, and without the CK i see no way for him to be strong enough to kill the DO- especially if he break the seals and thus increases the DO power and influence on the world. besides killing the DO is more likely to destroy the pattern- after all creating the bore and sealing it are the events that bring the end of the second and third ages, while there's no evidence that a seanchan empire is not the planned "theme" of the wheel for the fourth age (though i really hope it doesn't have to happen because it will suck if avi's vision comes true)

 

as for the CRAD, i agree they have to be aiel- whether channelers or DF i'm not sure.... could be both (after all if those are aiel channelers they need a few women to keep the sept or whatever going).actually when i started reading this thread and all the theories about aiel blight sept the first thing that popped in my mind is that it must have started back in the war of power when the forsaken took their aiel servants to the blight (after all it's always mentioned how loyal the dashain aiel were) and over the years they were joined by DF aiel and channelers. The idea that they are sharans or from LOMM just seems far fetched and too complicated.. why go so far?

[WMBunt]

Going through my re-read and caught another reference to a man dressed as an Aiel with black eyes in Lord of Chaos. At the end of Chapter 46 "At The Gate" when Demira Eriff (an Aes Sedai in the Salidar embassy) is attacked, it's by a man dressed as an Aiel in the cadinsor and when he stabs her, she notices that he has black eyes. There is also a message delivered to stay away from Rand al'Thor and it sets that group down the path of feeling like Rand orchestrated the attack and drives a wedge there.

 

Now, was he Aiel? Not sure and don't think so because he isn't physically described to fit the Aiel. He's noted as short by Demira in her PoV. But it does bring the question that he could be manipulated by someone on the side of the Dark who wants to drive the wedge between the Aes Sedai and rand. Or want to drive a wedge between the rebels and Rand. Could it be Galina/Alviarin/Mesanna taking a hand early?

 

It's a quick moment. One sentence really that references the black eyes. But it is the same m.o. the stabbing and leering face over the victim. Very similar without the sharp teeth being noticed. I can't imagine it's not connected in some way, though. Not to have it seven books ahead and play out in a similar way.

 

Not sure of the specific connection, but figured I'd mention it since there are lots of people on here who are better at ferreting out the connection between clues.

[Maleshub]

Going through my re-read and caught another reference to a man dressed as an Aiel with black eyes in Lord of Chaos. At the end of Chapter 46 "At The Gate" when Demira Eriff (an Aes Sedai in the Salidar embassy) is attacked, it's by a man dressed as an Aiel in the cadinsor and when he stabs her, she notices that he has black eyes. There is also a message delivered to stay away from Rand al'Thor and it sets that group down the path of feeling like Rand orchestrated the attack and drives a wedge there.

 

Now, was he Aiel? Not sure and don't think so because he isn't physically described to fit the Aiel. He's noted as short by Demira in her PoV. But it does bring the question that he could be manipulated by someone on the side of the Dark who wants to drive the wedge between the Aes Sedai and rand. Or want to drive a wedge between the rebels and Rand. Could it be Galina/Alviarin/Mesanna taking a hand early?

 

It's a quick moment. One sentence really that references the black eyes. But it is the same m.o. the stabbing and leering face over the victim. Very similar without the sharp teeth being noticed. I can't imagine it's not connected in some way, though. Not to have it seven books ahead and play out in a similar way.

 

Not sure of the specific connection, but figured I'd mention it since there are lots of people on here who are better at ferreting out the connection between clues.

 

Wow, thanks for this post. That scene was always confusing for me. And if the attackers were disguised as Aiel, that would explain much and open new possibilities. Something new to learn just about every time I browse this forum!

[Suttree]

It's a quick moment. One sentence really that references the black eyes. But it is the same m.o. the stabbing and leering face over the victim. Very similar without the sharp teeth being noticed. I can't imagine it's not connected in some way, though. Not to have it seven books ahead and play out in a similar way.

 

The prevailing sentiment is it was attackers disguised as Aiel, one of the attackers is described as squat along with the black eyes after all. Also they refer to AS as "witches" which has lead some to believe it was Fain's renegade whitecloaks. I believe Taim directing the attack was a very popular theory at one point as well.

[Maleshub]

Thanks, Suttree, for the response. That solves another of "ignorance" spot. And reading that scene will now make sense in the future!

[WMBunt]

It's a quick moment. One sentence really that references the black eyes. But it is the same m.o. the stabbing and leering face over the victim. Very similar without the sharp teeth being noticed. I can't imagine it's not connected in some way, though. Not to have it seven books ahead and play out in a similar way.

 

The prevailing sentiment is it was attackers disguised as Aiel, one of the attackers is described as squat along with the black eyes after all. Also they refer to AS as "witches" which has lead some to believe it was Fain's renegade whitecloaks. I believe Taim directing the attack was a very popular theory at one point as well.

 

Thanks Suttree. Like I said, it just struck me quickly. And there are way too many threads to dig back through 13 books of theorycrafting.

[Vardar]

Firstly, a couple of hundred men couldn't break the world again. A couple of thousand couldn't. In the Breaking there were hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

 

Secondly, the Dark One doesn't just want global destruction, as you suggest. He wants the destruction of the Wheel itself, and to achieve that he needs his freedom. To that effect he has, in a great many ways, not used the tools at hand in order to lull the Light into a false sense of security which he's exploiting by turning them against each other. That is what the 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' policy is all about, and its the same reason that the Trollocs have been kept on a Leash, and Darkfriends havn't done any big open nastiness.

 

Re-read the scene where Demandred gives the Let the Lord of Chaos Rule command--Mesaana renumirates on how its a risky plan, but how it could win them everything.

 

Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Where did those numbers come from?\

 

Also, BA and linking. Multiple circles going at once. A lot more power. Destroy the world after they destroy it's citizens. What force would have stopped them? (Before Rand started getitng people together).

[GYLD]

Why would the Black Ajah cooperate in breaking the world? Like most Darkfriends, they want a world to rule over and outright destroying it is a bit counterproductive to that. That's the reason even the Shadow stopped using Balefire in the War of Power.

[Luckers]

Firstly, a couple of hundred men couldn't break the world again. A couple of thousand couldn't. In the Breaking there were hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

 

Secondly, the Dark One doesn't just want global destruction, as you suggest. He wants the destruction of the Wheel itself, and to achieve that he needs his freedom. To that effect he has, in a great many ways, not used the tools at hand in order to lull the Light into a false sense of security which he's exploiting by turning them against each other. That is what the 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' policy is all about, and its the same reason that the Trollocs have been kept on a Leash, and Darkfriends havn't done any big open nastiness.

 

Re-read the scene where Demandred gives the Let the Lord of Chaos Rule command--Mesaana renumirates on how its a risky plan, but how it could win them everything.

 

Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Where did those numbers come from?\

 

As per RJ, 3% of the population in the Age of Legends could channel. Even with conservative estimates for a highly industrialized society like the Age of Legends that means hundreds of thousands--and more likely millions--of channelers.

[Sharaman]

Seanchan itself has tens of thousands of damane and even more suldams. AOL must have had many million channelers,

[Durinax]

Firstly, a couple of hundred men couldn't break the world again. A couple of thousand couldn't. In the Breaking there were hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

 

Secondly, the Dark One doesn't just want global destruction, as you suggest. He wants the destruction of the Wheel itself, and to achieve that he needs his freedom. To that effect he has, in a great many ways, not used the tools at hand in order to lull the Light into a false sense of security which he's exploiting by turning them against each other. That is what the 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' policy is all about, and its the same reason that the Trollocs have been kept on a Leash, and Darkfriends havn't done any big open nastiness.

 

Re-read the scene where Demandred gives the Let the Lord of Chaos Rule command--Mesaana renumirates on how its a risky plan, but how it could win them everything.

 

Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Where did those numbers come from?\

 

As per RJ, 3% of the population in the Age of Legends could channel. Even with conservative estimates for a highly industrialized society like the Age of Legends that means hundreds of thousands--and more likely millions--of channelers.

3% of the current population is in the millions, so why not in a utopian society. (Last numbers I heard for population was 2.5 billion so channellers would be 6-8 million, if it translated to our time)

[Morden]

I definably think that they are an Aiel clan from within the Blight, not just because of the whole anti-aiel thesis of unveiling, but because of Isam/luc/slayers abilities within the world of dreams. Think about that for a minute of two. Who have been creating generations of dream walkers, who know more about it than many of the forsaken... yep the wise ones.

 

Think about this however, their teeth are pointed which tends to point towards cannibalism. Even if the DO had created a safe zone within the blight for them to stay dwell, which is a distinct possibility, Food would still be a major problem for them, so would it not make sense for them to be cannibalistic? there are raids into the borderlands and such continuously by trollocs. And there are hundreds and possibly thousands of Aiel venturing into the Blight every month. Surely that would provide a food supplement not to mention the borderlanders complaining about being attacked by Aiel raids quite often.

[thisguy]

Firstly, a couple of hundred men couldn't break the world again. A couple of thousand couldn't. In the Breaking there were hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

 

Secondly, the Dark One doesn't just want global destruction, as you suggest. He wants the destruction of the Wheel itself, and to achieve that he needs his freedom. To that effect he has, in a great many ways, not used the tools at hand in order to lull the Light into a false sense of security which he's exploiting by turning them against each other. That is what the 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' policy is all about, and its the same reason that the Trollocs have been kept on a Leash, and Darkfriends havn't done any big open nastiness.

 

Re-read the scene where Demandred gives the Let the Lord of Chaos Rule command--Mesaana renumirates on how its a risky plan, but how it could win them everything.

 

Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Where did those numbers come from?\

 

As per RJ, 3% of the population in the Age of Legends could channel. Even with conservative estimates for a highly industrialized society like the Age of Legends that means hundreds of thousands--and more likely millions--of channelers.

If WOT world is anything like ours, even before we started using coal, the estimated population of earth was 1 billion. 3% of that would be 30 million people.

[MountaineerWV]

The trends we are noticing in the world today is that in highly industrialized societies the birth rate is falling, excluding 1st generation immigrants. The US has a pop growth rate that falls just under the 'hold steady' rate due to Hispanics.

 

Now, exclude the birth rate of the Hispanic pop in the US and apply that to the entire world. No immigration boosting rates, etc. Maybe there is a figure or person out there that has done a calculation showing the Earth's pop at equilibrium within a highly industrialized society.

 

I think that a population of 1 billion may be excessive for the AoL. Probably in the hundreds of millions.

 

Well, regardless of that, there were still a shit ton of channellers in the AoL and other than the fact that fans WANT these things to be Aiel there is no evidence proving that they are.

[1Brotherbill]

Millions of channelers sounds about right. Since there has been hints that the AOL was the Earth at present day. That number is actually low if you take 3% of todays population you get hundreds of millions. Figure the Male AS going crazy over a two hundred year period. It's amazing that anybody not a channeler made it.

 

You would go to sleep one night in a wagon wake up the next day and everything is made out of cotton candy. Hey if your going nuts might as well go big right.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Birth rate and population would be much better than American or any real world figure. Average age of death would also be higher, due to channelers (obviously) and healing ability, no cancer or other problems. Birth control would not start until the population had already reached a massive figure, so probably in excess of 6 billion would be a reasonable figure. Certainly no reason for it to be less than earth population, and more reason for it to be over.

[Vardar]

Birth rate and population would be much better than American or any real world figure. Average age of death would also be higher, due to channelers (obviously) and healing ability, no cancer or other problems. Birth control would not start until the population had already reached a massive figure, so probably in excess of 6 billion would be a reasonable figure. Certainly no reason for it to be less than earth population, and more reason for it to be over.

 

Do we have a pre-breaking map? How much did the earth change with the breaking? I mean really change? As it stands now, that map if RandLand, exlcuding the Waste and other deserts/mountians/etc, is smaller than the US. How many people can really fit into that area?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Do we have a pre-breaking map? How much did the earth change with the breaking? I mean really change? As it stands now, that map if RandLand, exlcuding the Waste and other deserts/mountians/etc, is smaller than the US. How many people can really fit into that area?

 

We don't have a pre breaking map, but the AoL is in no way comparable to the US, or any other country in the world.

 

I'm kinda being lazy, but I don't want to spam the thread with an off topic post, so I will say, read the BWB section about the AoL, and have a look at the size of the current world, it is pretty clear that more people could be sufficiently sustained in the AoL than anything in our own world. Even if the world was the size of the US, it could still sustain billions, but the size, I would say, was fairly equal to the 3rd age, and earth (just in different positions).

 

Eg: Most of the major cities had an abundance of skyscrapers that stretched further than the eye could see, and had bridges connecting them in the sky etc.

[MountaineerWV]

Birth rate and population would be much better than American or any real world figure. Average age of death would also be higher, due to channelers (obviously) and healing ability, no cancer or other problems. Birth control would not start until the population had already reached a massive figure, so probably in excess of 6 billion would be a reasonable figure. Certainly no reason for it to be less than earth population, and more reason for it to be over.

 

I agree that life expectancy would be longer. One of Rand's ancestors we saw in the glass columns was in his prime at 60.

 

The trend we are seeing in highly industrialized societies on our word is showing a slowing of population growth and then to a negative population growth. Earth's pop is still growing (due to places like India and Sub Saharan Africa) but if they follow the trends of the rest of the world their pop will balloon and then contract.

 

We have no idea how long the AoL was. Considering that the strongest channellers may live 700 or 800 years, the AoL may have been 10k or 20k years long. Within that duration of time, the population would have contracted and eventually reached steady state.

[Vardar]

Do we have a pre-breaking map? How much did the earth change with the breaking? I mean really change? As it stands now, that map if RandLand, exlcuding the Waste and other deserts/mountians/etc, is smaller than the US. How many people can really fit into that area?

 

We don't have a pre breaking map, but the AoL is in no way comparable to the US, or any other country in the world.

 

I'm kinda being lazy, but I don't want to spam the thread with an off topic post, so I will say, read the BWB section about the AoL, and have a look at the size of the current world, it is pretty clear that more people could be sufficiently sustained in the AoL than anything in our own world. Even if the world was the size of the US, it could still sustain billions, but the size, I would say, was fairly equal to the 3rd age, and earth (just in different positions).

 

Eg: Most of the major cities had an abundance of skyscrapers that stretched further than the eye could see, and had bridges connecting them in the sky etc.

 

What's BWB?

[Suttree]

Do we have a pre-breaking map? How much did the earth change with the breaking? I mean really change? As it stands now, that map if RandLand, exlcuding the Waste and other deserts/mountians/etc, is smaller than the US. How many people can really fit into that area?

 

We don't have a pre breaking map, but the AoL is in no way comparable to the US, or any other country in the world.

 

I'm kinda being lazy, but I don't want to spam the thread with an off topic post, so I will say, read the BWB section about the AoL, and have a look at the size of the current world, it is pretty clear that more people could be sufficiently sustained in the AoL than anything in our own world. Even if the world was the size of the US, it could still sustain billions, but the size, I would say, was fairly equal to the 3rd age, and earth (just in different positions).

 

Eg: Most of the major cities had an abundance of skyscrapers that stretched further than the eye could see, and had bridges connecting them in the sky etc.

 

What's BWB?

 

Big White Book or The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

What's BWB?

 

The nickname of the Guide RJ wrote with information about the Wheel not in the books.

 

http://www.amazon.com/World-Robert-Jordans-Wheel-Time/dp/0312862199

 

@MountaineerWV The Age of Legends is in no way comparable to modern trends, it is in a league of its own. All I can say without writing pages and pages is, again, have a look at the BWB, it makes the AoL much clearer.

[Vardar]

What's BWB?

 

The nickname of the Guide RJ wrote with information about the Wheel not in the books.

 

http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0312862199

 

@MountaineerWV The Age of Legends is in no way comparable to modern trends, it is in a league of its own. All I can say without writing pages and pages is, again, have a look at the BWB, it makes the AoL much clearer.

 

And Low and Behold I have that on E-Books on my Ipad apparently... So what am I looking for?

[Barid Bel Medar]

And Low and Behold I have that on E-Books on my Ipad apparently... So what am I looking for?

 

Well I am not sure where it is on an eBook, but in my copy it is section 2: Age of Legends - under the subheading The Age of Legends, ending when it reaches "Fall into Shadow"

 

page 25-44 in mine.

 

It explains a good deal about the energy sources to maintain vehicles, food output and general sense of the grandeur of the place, which differs in a big way from our own time.