Asmodean

[bushleague16]

He had to have been killed in TAR if only for one reason... we know Graendal's MO and thats to stay as far away from Rand as possible unless ordered to. Aginor, Balth, Ishy, Be'lal, Rahvin AND Lanfear had all been killed at this point with none of them resurrected. She definitely wasn't going to be walking through the palace when he's already demolished one of the most powerful male channelers. Although it wasn't Rand who killed all of these people, she doesn't necessarily know that. So I think she dream-killed his ass... as to the why the DO couldn't bring him back, your guess is as good as mine. By the way, the whole reason I thought it WASN'T her was because of everything I stated above. Going into the lion's den and getting her hands dirty is the exact opposite of everything we've heard or seen from and about her. I was totally shocked to find out she killed him... I thought it was definitely one of Lanfear's wishes... Rahvin was dead and Sammael was ignorant of the death... and the Eelfin and Aelfin killed him in finnland would have made much more sense as to why the DO couldn't bring him back.

 

But RJ's going to do what he wants to do... and by the way, terrible reveal... they did it on purpose to be ironic about the whole thing. I missed it the first time and had to go back.

[Sharaman]

Actually, we know for a fact that T'A'R does not matter: Ishamael was killed in T'A'R (though rand did not know that was where it was at the time) and he was brought back. So the where continues to be a mystery, perhaps one that will never be solved.

Apart from TAR, the other possibles are Gateways and skimmers.

We do know GLoD has a very narrow window of time-space to grab the soul - BF scrambles time, a Gate/ skimmer scrambles space perhaps.

Since where matters, I'm assuming GLoD's space coordinates are scrambled.

The Rahvin case isn't conclusive - BF in itself is enough in the quantities Rand used so the where doesn't matter.

The Ishamael case may not be conclusive either - GLoD has his strings into Ishy in two key ways - one, Ishamael is saidin-filtered, two, he is allowed to use GLoD's essence=TP. That might mean that the GLoD can resurrect him from anything short of BF.

Asmo had his taint-filter cut and he wasn't allowed to use TP - so TAR may be enough if it sufficiently scrambles GLoD's spatial sense.

I am interested in the method because even if Rand manages to BF the entire gang of current Forsaken, there will many DF channelers who died but are not BF-ed - already 150 BA for instance. If there's a showdown at the BT for instance, I doubt BF will be used.

@Bushleague I was 100% confirmed it was Graendal precisely because she did go into the Ilian Palace to hunt for angreal after Rand attacked Sammael. She doesn't have a problem taking calculated risks when she considers it worthwhile.

[Orderofolde]

Can't say I liked the reveal in the prologue.

What now? What did I miss?

Everyone is still getting ahead of themselves. All we know is that it was said that she was RESPONSIBLE for the deaths of the Chosen, not that she had killed them! Rand killed Aran'gar, and Eggy got Mesaana. We don't know HOW or WHERE which is most pertinant, or the true Whodunnit yet! Sheesh, People, you got another piece to the puzzle, a little more to go off of but not the outright statement of who did it, just who is responsible for it. For all we know, he stepped into that room and a gateway neatly bisected him. We're being toyed with here, all in the Graendal camp are fired up rubbing it in people's noses, and next book we'll have a turn about with the full reveal. Someone needs to ask Brandon straight up if she killed him or is just responsible for his death. The truth is, it can't be so simple an ending as that, we must be toyed with, we must go through the next stage of agony and suffering and RAFO's.

[Mr Ares]

Some people have brought up the question of where Asmo died, on the grounds that both how and where are important. All the evidence we have indicates that he died in the Caemlyn Palace, in Andor. Now, where did the other transmigrated Chosen die? Aginor and Balthamel died at the Eye, a place that has some unusual properties, such as one is only supposed to be able to reach it once; Ishamael appears to have died in T'a'r; Lanfear appears to have died in Finnland. So while people suggest non-real world places he could have died that would put him beyond Shai'tan's reach, I would point out that we have never seen someone who died in the real world come back - and therefore people might well have it backwards. I suggest that death in the real world makes it harder for Shai'tan to grab your soul, other places such as T'a'r make it easier. Discuss, and bask in my genius. If you can't multitask, just bask.

[Lynchgrinch]

Oh well, guess i was wrong and it WAS staring us in the face the whole time.

 

Go on then, rip me to shreds for ever saying it was Slayer....

[dwn]

Some people have brought up the question of where Asmo died, on the grounds that both how and where are important. All the evidence we have indicates that he died in the Caemlyn Palace, in Andor. Now, where did the other transmigrated Chosen die? Aginor and Balthamel died at the Eye, a place that has some unusual properties, such as one is only supposed to be able to reach it once; Ishamael appears to have died in T'a'r; Lanfear appears to have died in Finnland. So while people suggest non-real world places he could have died that would put him beyond Shai'tan's reach, I would point out that we have never seen someone who died in the real world come back - and therefore people might well have it backwards. I suggest that death in the real world makes it harder for Shai'tan to grab your soul, other places such as T'a'r make it easier. Discuss, and bask in my genius. If you can't multitask, just bask.

 

That's so crazy it's positively brilliant.

 

-- dwn

[didymos]

Going into the lion's den and getting her hands dirty is the exact opposite of everything we've heard or seen from and about her.

 

Yeah, except for the fact that she did exactly that when she went to Illian and looted Sammael's stash right after Rand had killed him (or rather helped Sammy get himself killed). That and one her pets in ToM was a certain black-haired Tairen noblewoman last seen kicking it with Rahvin.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I don't take anything that was said as definitive proof that it was Graendal. :]

 

Take a look @ the glossary under "Graendal."

 

All it said is that she is "responsible".

 

Oh well, guess i was wrong and it WAS staring us in the face the whole time.

 

Go on then, rip me to shreds for ever saying it was Slayer....

 

Giving up already huh? If anything, I'm more convinced the actual killer, who directly killed him, was Slayer.

[seasnake]

I think T'A'R' is outside of The Dark One's Jurisdiction, but Ishamael died in Tear. I think Rand delivered the death blow in TAR, and then they came out together and then Ishamael died. A question of seconds, perhaps, but it would explain everything.

[didymos]

I think T'A'R' is outside of The Dark One's Jurisdiction, but Ishamael died in Tear. I think Rand delivered the death blow in TAR, and then they came out together and then Ishamael died. A question of seconds, perhaps, but it would explain everything.

 

Again: Rahvin died in T'A'R. What did the DO bitch about? The balefire.

[Sharaman]

I think T'A'R' is outside of The Dark One's Jurisdiction, but Ishamael died in Tear. I think Rand delivered the death blow in TAR, and then they came out together and then Ishamael died. A question of seconds, perhaps, but it would explain everything.

 

Again: Rahvin died in T'A'R. What did the DO bitch about? The balefire.

Balefire is in itself sufficient to prevent transmigration regardless of location.

Is TAR sufficient to prevent transmigration assuming that the method used was not Balefire and the person killed is not a TP Channeler with a saidin-filter attached?

Ditto a Gateway or a skimming platform?

We have a Brandon quote saying he's not going to tell us what else (apart from BF) prevents transmigration.

(Graendal does wonder if she can escape GLoD's surveillance by going to a mirror world but there's no Portal Stone in the Caemlyn Palace.)

Given the restricted ambit of Asmo's death and endlessly parsed quotes of "where" being important, the TAR/ Gateway/ Skimmer are the possibilities one can see.

[Byzantine279]

I doubt that it is TAR, it just doesn't seem like it would be an issue.

 

Anyway, We only know two things (possibly three) that are certain to prevent transmigration: balefire, Mashadar (Sammael is not coming back), and possibly the Black Wind.

[Sharaman]

I doubt that it is TAR, it just doesn't seem like it would be an issue.

 

Anyway, We only know two things (possibly three) that are certain to prevent transmigration: balefire, Mashadar (Sammael is not coming back), and possibly the Black Wind.

Mashadar doesn't prevent transmigration but it messes up the soul so badly GLoD didn't want to do it.

Brandon has said there are more ways of dying that prevent transmigration but refused to clarify what they are.

[dwn]

I doubt that it is TAR, it just doesn't seem like it would be an issue.

 

Anyway, We only know two things (possibly three) that are certain to prevent transmigration: balefire, Mashadar (Sammael is not coming back), and possibly the Black Wind.

Mashadar doesn't prevent transmigration but it messes up the soul so badly GLoD didn't want to do it.

Brandon has said there are more ways of dying that prevent transmigration but refused to clarify what they are.

 

My guess is a simple accident (choking, falling off a chair, knocking a shocklance into your bath water) would make it pretty hard. Not that the DO couldn't do it in a pinch, but he'd sure feel pretty damn silly about it.

 

-- dwn

[Sharaman]

I doubt that it is TAR, it just doesn't seem like it would be an issue.

 

Anyway, We only know two things (possibly three) that are certain to prevent transmigration: balefire, Mashadar (Sammael is not coming back), and possibly the Black Wind.

Mashadar doesn't prevent transmigration but it messes up the soul so badly GLoD didn't want to do it.

Brandon has said there are more ways of dying that prevent transmigration but refused to clarify what they are.

 

My guess is a simple accident (choking, falling off a chair, knocking a shocklance into your bath water) would make it pretty hard. Not that the DO couldn't do it in a pinch, but he'd sure feel pretty damn silly about it.

 

-- dwn

 

I don't think he has a problem handing any normal time-space coordinates.

BF clearly scrambles time.

TAR, Gates, Skimmers, maybe portal stones, might scramble space.

[nophone]

I have always figured he was killed in TAR.

Only a few pages before Asmodean is offed Rand has a POV where he's looking at a gateway into TAR. He specifically says (well, thinks) if he couldn't see the weaves, he wouldn't know it was there. It's always seemed connected to me.

 

Yeah, I was keen on that too...until Egwene made her gateway in T'A'R. The female version just looked like a cloudy door in the middle of the air.

 

 

You are entirely correct there. I just explain it away like this:

Egwene figured that weave out all by her own self, She didn't yet know how to travel, or skim, so it wasn't a bastardisation of those weaves. In fact, she figured out travelling from the weave she used in that instance.

It was something she pulled out of thin air, and it worked. That doesn't imply that it is the same weave used for travelling into TAR that the Forsaken women use. By this point (I think) we already know that different weaves exist to do the same thing. We see later in the story that Avi's first travelling weave is different to the one Egwene figures out, as she has difficulty with that one. It seems logical to assume that the weave Egwene uses is different enough to the AOL weave to account for the cloudy doorway appearance.

Of course, I could be wrong and the Dark one is simply terrified of cupboards/wine cellars/storage rooms/whateverthatroomactuallywas and wont reserruct anyone killed in one

 

 

Avi specifically mentions that if she could remember the weave she used when running from rand "it would require a lot less of the power than she felt like it required of her now"

[Mr Ares]

I think T'A'R' is outside of The Dark One's Jurisdiction, but Ishamael died in Tear. I think Rand delivered the death blow in TAR, and then they came out together and then Ishamael died. A question of seconds, perhaps, but it would explain everything.

What, precisely, would it explain?

 

I think T'A'R' is outside of The Dark One's Jurisdiction, but Ishamael died in Tear. I think Rand delivered the death blow in TAR, and then they came out together and then Ishamael died. A question of seconds, perhaps, but it would explain everything.

 

Again: Rahvin died in T'A'R. What did the DO bitch about? The balefire.

Balefire is in itself sufficient to prevent transmigration regardless of location.

Is TAR sufficient to prevent transmigration assuming that the method used was not Balefire and the person killed is not a TP Channeler with a saidin-filter attached?

Ditto a Gateway or a skimming platform?

We have a Brandon quote saying he's not going to tell us what else (apart from BF) prevents transmigration.

(Graendal does wonder if she can escape GLoD's surveillance by going to a mirror world but there's no Portal Stone in the Caemlyn Palace.)

Given the restricted ambit of Asmo's death and endlessly parsed quotes of "where" being important, the TAR/ Gateway/ Skimmer are the possibilities one can see.

They are the possibilities you can see. Problem is, there is no indication in the text that T'a'r or skimming space are beyond Shai'tan's ability to transmigrate, and there is no indication Asmo was in either of those places when he died. The evidence presented in the books are that he died in the Caemlyn Palace, Caemlyn, Andor. There's not much point theorising if you aren't going to take the evidence into account.

 

Another way to look at it is, SG is located where there is a "thinness" in the Pattern, therefore Shai'tan has greater influence on it. So if His influence is greater where the Pattern is thinner, then it follows it would be lesser where the Pattern is "thicker", and Asmo died where the Pattern was too thick to allow him being brought back, or just to make it harder.

[Sharaman]

I think T'A'R' is outside of The Dark One's Jurisdiction, but Ishamael died in Tear. I think Rand delivered the death blow in TAR, and then they came out together and then Ishamael died. A question of seconds, perhaps, but it would explain everything.

What, precisely, would it explain?

 

I think T'A'R' is outside of The Dark One's Jurisdiction, but Ishamael died in Tear. I think Rand delivered the death blow in TAR, and then they came out together and then Ishamael died. A question of seconds, perhaps, but it would explain everything.

 

Again: Rahvin died in T'A'R. What did the DO bitch about? The balefire.

Balefire is in itself sufficient to prevent transmigration regardless of location.

Is TAR sufficient to prevent transmigration assuming that the method used was not Balefire and the person killed is not a TP Channeler with a saidin-filter attached?

Ditto a Gateway or a skimming platform?

We have a Brandon quote saying he's not going to tell us what else (apart from BF) prevents transmigration.

(Graendal does wonder if she can escape GLoD's surveillance by going to a mirror world but there's no Portal Stone in the Caemlyn Palace.)

Given the restricted ambit of Asmo's death and endlessly parsed quotes of "where" being important, the TAR/ Gateway/ Skimmer are the possibilities one can see.

They are the possibilities you can see. Problem is, there is no indication in the text that T'a'r or skimming space are beyond Shai'tan's ability to transmigrate, and there is no indication Asmo was in either of those places when he died. The evidence presented in the books are that he died in the Caemlyn Palace, Caemlyn, Andor. There's not much point theorising if you aren't going to take the evidence into account.

 

Another way to look at it is, SG is located where there is a "thinness" in the Pattern, therefore Shai'tan has greater influence on it. So if His influence is greater where the Pattern is thinner, then it follows it would be lesser where the Pattern is "thicker", and Asmo died where the Pattern was too thick to allow him being brought back, or just to make it harder.

 

We have several quotes from RJ

One is the "How" and "Where" with reference to Asmo

The second is the explanation of how Balefire scrambles GloD's window of time opportunity to grab a soul.

Since the where is important it isn't BF.

 

A third RJ statement that seems pertinent to your argument (that GLoD has problems bringing back souls in normal space-time) is an assertion that the GLoD could bring back pretty much any soul he cared to, only he wouldn't bother to do so with a dedicated follower of the Light.

(can't be bothered finding the quote - it's there in the Theoryland dbase)

Since most people don't die in TAR, Gateways, Skimmers, the Blight and other alternate spaces, I'm assuming GLoD can bring back the soul of somebody who dies in a normal space-time.

Hence, Asmo couldn't have been in a normal space-time since the "where" is important.

Hence he must have been in an alternate ST - the only possible ones, given his location instants before he died in Caemlyn Palace, are TAR/ gateways/ Skimmers.

There are no textual references that indicate he was in a normal ST either at the instant of death.

[Mr Ares]

Firstly, I think you had better track down that quote, the one about Shai'tan being able to bring anyone back, because without it you don't have an argument. Secondly, the text does indicate Asmo died in normal space-time. After all, we see him with Avi and Mat, and they are observed by Rand. All this takes place in normal space-time. So, as we have Asmo's pov, we would need some indication that he had left the real world before we could consider this a viable theory. We don't have that, therefore he died in Caemlyn. We also have nothing to indicate that Asmo's death couldn't be by balefire. And, as I pointed out, we have no examples of someone with a confirmed death in normal space-time coming back, quite the reverse.

[didymos]

Firstly, I think you had better track down that quote, the one about Shai'tan being able to bring anyone back, because without it you don't have an argument.

 

Here:

 

Knife of Dreams book tour Pasadena, CA 31 October 2005 - Ursula reporting

 

A man asked if the Dark One can resurrect anyone after death?

RJ answered that, yes, the Dark One can resurrect any soul, but probably doesn't want to bring back someone who hates him.

[Elan Tedronai]

anyone with enough common sense would have figured graendal killed asmo. It was so clear in book 7.

[Sharaman]

Firstly, I think you had better track down that quote, the one about Shai'tan being able to bring anyone back, because without it you don't have an argument. Secondly, the text does indicate Asmo died in normal space-time. After all, we see him with Avi and Mat, and they are observed by Rand. All this takes place in normal space-time. So, as we have Asmo's pov, we would need some indication that he had left the real world before we could consider this a viable theory. We don't have that, therefore he died in Caemlyn. We also have nothing to indicate that Asmo's death couldn't be by balefire. And, as I pointed out, we have no examples of someone with a confirmed death in normal space-time coming back, quite the reverse.

@didymos thanks - yes that's the quote I was referencing.

@Mr Ares, there's no doubt Asmo was in the Caemlyn Palace in normal Space-Time until instants before he died. While there are no indications that he was pulled into a different ST, we can't definitively say he wasn't.

Anyway, let's see if this is ever sorted out.

[Ashaman Kovan]

anyone with enough common sense would have figured graendal killed asmo. It was so clear in book 7.

 

[Gor]

I think I tend to agree with Mr. Ares here, but not wholly.

 

I think the "where" was Caemlyn, Andor and not some alternate reality, the way he died (with his "You!? No!" hanging in the air) would lend to him being killed almost instantly with no time spent dragging him off somewhere else (it takes more than an instant for a gateway to open or to enter/exit TAR). That being said, I do think the DO *can* resurrect a soul in the normal world...theoretically.

 

The catch here is that in order to transmigrate a soul someone needs to go get the body; as evidenced by Moridin or Slayer or *someone* getting Lanfear in the ToG.

 

Perhaps that retriever was not able to or willing to enter Caemlyn and find Asmodean before the allotted time for transmigration had passed. Graendal was most likely already in Caemlyn during or shortly after the attack on Rahvin so she was already well situated to kill Asmodean. But the dude (Slayer/Moridin or whomever) that is required to retreive the body was *not* in Caemlyn, and didn't at that immediate time know what Caemlyn was like. Leading them to either risk an investigation and come up empty without being able to locate Asmo's body so it could be transmigrated...*or*...fearing too much to try entering Caemlyn since Rand was there, especially for only a traitor.

 

The how part of the question is less tricky...it was almost certainly balefire given the instantaneous nature of his death and who killed him.

 

So, in my mind...Asmodean could not be transmigrated because A) he died to balefire and B) he was in a location that was controlled by the Light and therefore unretrievable by whomever is responsible for retrieving.

 

That is the KISS answer at least.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think I tend to agree with Mr. Ares here, but not wholly.

 

I think the "where" was Caemlyn, Andor and not some alternate reality, the way he died (with his "You!? No!" hanging in the air) would lend to him being killed almost instantly with no time spent dragging him off somewhere else (it takes more than an instant for a gateway to open or to enter/exit TAR). That being said, I do think the DO *can* resurrect a soul in the normal world...theoretically.

 

The catch here is that in order to transmigrate a soul someone needs to go get the body; as evidenced by Moridin or Slayer or *someone* getting Lanfear in the ToG.

 

Perhaps that retriever was not able to or willing to enter Caemlyn and find Asmodean before the allotted time for transmigration had passed. Graendal was most likely already in Caemlyn during or shortly after the attack on Rahvin so she was already well situated to kill Asmodean. But the dude (Slayer/Moridin or whomever) that is required to retreive the body was *not* in Caemlyn, and didn't at that immediate time know what Caemlyn was like. Leading them to either risk an investigation and come up empty without being able to locate Asmo's body so it could be transmigrated...*or*...fearing too much to try entering Caemlyn since Rand was there, especially for only a traitor.

 

The how part of the question is less tricky...it was almost certainly balefire given the instantaneous nature of his death and who killed him.

 

So, in my mind...Asmodean could not be transmigrated because A) he died to balefire and B) he was in a location that was controlled by the Light and therefore unretrievable by whomever is responsible for retrieving.

 

That is the KISS answer at least.

 

No.

 

The old body isn't needed for anything. Transmigration is the process of taking a soul and implanting it into a new body. The soul is not tied to the old, dead body. Once the body dies, it leaves and goes wherever souls go to await rebirth. Along the way from death to rest there is a brief time window when the dark One can snag that soul for transmigration.

 

Jordan's quotes quite clearly say that the DO could not transmirgate Asmo even if it wanted to because of How he was killed and Where he was killed. Not where the body ended up.