Moiraine

[WhiskyJack]

We know that Flinn can do the same. Should I take that to next level and assume that bunch of DF male channelers learned the weave (or even a forsaken) and healed Lanfear? If they were healing her, it would make sense to do it right, right?

 

IIRC, there was a span of time between Nynaeve discovery of how to Heal severing and Flinn duplicating her feat. Maybe Landane was Healed then. Also, wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Healing Talent is more common in women than in men? There may not be another male channeler capable of doing it.

Yes, Lanfear was resurrected and mindtrapped before Moghedien who escaped from Salidar before Dumai's Well. Only Nyn's healing method was known at that stage.

 

 

Again, you cannot still and then heal someone who cannot even channel.

Also, Cyndane was first introduced in a scene with Graendal. Moghy was there too. Could you point me to scene where it says that Cyndane was resurrected and mind trapped before Moghy?

[f3llyn]

If Moiraine just released Lan from his bond than he wouldn't have felt the suicide urges.

 

To me all we see is Lan acting like his companion for the last 20 years just died. He kind of went back to the way he was pre Moiraine post killing his friend, all I have to die alone fighting the blight.

 

RJ said Lan is suffering from the severing effect (see quote below). This can't be the result of the bond simply being passed, as there were no negative effects when Myrelle passed it to Nynaeve in ToM.

 

RJ: Lan is undergoing the severing effect of his bond to Moiraine, which means that he has lost the desire and will to live, which is being restored to him by Nynaeve.

-- Netherlands Dromen and Demonen Chat - 6 April 2001

The difference is that Myrelle knows he's not dead. For all intents and purposes Moiraine died when she fell through the doorway. The psychological effect is that he undergoes the same process as if she really had died. That's my take on it anyways. Mind over matter, and Lans mind tells him that she died.

[Cyf]

I personally think the *Finn damage is damage to the soul, not simply the connection to the Source. Basically, the only way to 'Heal' it IMO is probably to be spun out again at a later date by the Wheel. Normal Healing, even Nyn/Flinn-healing, won't affect it. We'll see, though!

[deathgate]

 

RJ: Lan is undergoing the severing effect of his bond to Moiraine, which means that he has lost the desire and will to live, which is being restored to him by Nynaeve.

-- Netherlands Dromen and Demonen Chat - 6 April 2001

 

I think that the link broke when the door melted. Think of modern communications and how data links are constructed. This wasn't set up with an auto backup feature through the other door or TOG, so link down severing occurs.

[Kaznen]

Moiraine never said what the price she had to pay was. Maybe they wanted her bond severed so she would feel the anguish and AS feels after losing her warder.

[Sharaman]

We know that Flinn can do the same. Should I take that to next level and assume that bunch of DF male channelers learned the weave (or even a forsaken) and healed Lanfear? If they were healing her, it would make sense to do it right, right?

 

IIRC, there was a span of time between Nynaeve discovery of how to Heal severing and Flinn duplicating her feat. Maybe Landane was Healed then. Also, wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Healing Talent is more common in women than in men? There may not be another male channeler capable of doing it.

Yes, Lanfear was resurrected and mindtrapped before Moghedien who escaped from Salidar before Dumai's Well. Only Nyn's healing method was known at that stage.

 

 

Again, you cannot still and then heal someone who cannot even channel.

Also, Cyndane was first introduced in a scene with Graendal. Moghy was there too. Could you point me to scene where it says that Cyndane was resurrected and mind trapped before Moghy?

 

Read ACoS Chapter 25 again - when Moggy (and us) meets Moridin for the first time.

You really do hold strong opinions for somebody who doesn't seem to have read the books with much attention to detail.

[Orderofolde]

Well we all know Moiraine has been brought back for some reason and I think it has to do with supporting Rand and Nynaeve with Callandor.

She becomes queen of Cairhien and a supporter of Rand. Her two destinies collide, that of still being the one whose claim is strongest to the throne, and her life's dedication of finding The Dragon Reborn. You already see the resistance with Elayne in the courts. If you look closely at it, this is a good thing, as Andor men and Cairhienen have had many skirmishes over the years raiding one another stealing sheep and Vanin with his horses.

[f3llyn]

Well we all know Moiraine has been brought back for some reason and I think it has to do with supporting Rand and Nynaeve with Callandor.

She becomes queen of Cairhien and a supporter of Rand. Her two destinies collide, that of still being the one whose claim is strongest to the throne, and her life's dedication of finding The Dragon Reborn. You already see the resistance with Elayne in the courts. If you look closely at it, this is a good thing, as Andor men and Cairhienen have had many skirmishes over the years raiding one another stealing sheep and Vanin with his horses.

So she would go to war with Elayne with one book left? That makes absolutely no sense. Besides the fact that Elayne already secured Cairhien. I don't want at least a quarter of the last book be about politics to secure a throne that has already been secured, we've already had enough of that.

[Byzantine279]

Whisky, her name does not pop up, but Moridin already had her mindtrap.

[f3llyn]

I always got the impression that Cyndane was mindtrapped from the first moment she "woke up" in her new body.

[WhiskyJack]

Whisky, her name does not pop up, but Moridin already had her mindtrap.

 

 

 

Was Logaine healed before or after Rahvin died?

[Orderofolde]

I found it quite intriguing that the Finns had the ability to actually drain her strength in the One Power. How in the Light would that be possible?

 

Also, I wonder if she was kept the whole time where they found her, Snow-White style. She was in some sort of induced sleep, it looked like -- still makes me wonder whether they fed her.

 

I also wonder if one of her requests was for her bond with Lan to be severed -- if they were capable of doing so. That way everyone would think she was dead and Lan would go follow his own path.

 

I agree with this. I think it had to be one of her requests. Otherwise, Lan(and probably others) would have tried to save her and they all would have died.

I think the destruction of the doorway severe the bound

 

I do not see how the destruction of the doorway severs the bond.

 

Now of the destruction of the doorway killed Moiraine, and one of her wishes was to be resurrected from that, or simply the Snakes and Foxes ressed her to feed off her, then that is another story.

 

The Ter'angreal was destroyed and it is the only known direct link with the Eelfinn, and as she went to another world entirely, then that broke the bond. It wouldn't likley reconnect through the Tower of Genji. Moiraine also knew what would occur down at the docks and a possibility of what would transpire with the rescue.

[Orderofolde]

Well we all know Moiraine has been brought back for some reason and I think it has to do with supporting Rand and Nynaeve with Callandor.

She becomes queen of Cairhien and a supporter of Rand. Her two destinies collide, that of still being the one whose claim is strongest to the throne, and her life's dedication of finding The Dragon Reborn. You already see the resistance with Elayne in the courts. If you look closely at it, this is a good thing, as Andor men and Cairhienen have had many skirmishes over the years raiding one another stealing sheep and Vanin with his horses.

So she would go to war with Elayne with one book left? That makes absolutely no sense. Besides the fact that Elayne already secured Cairhien. I don't want at least a quarter of the last book be about politics to secure a throne that has already been secured, we've already had enough of that.

Where did war come into it at? I never said war. She has a better claim than Elayne. They are both Aes Sedai (or nearly so). The Cairhienen will likely protest that the White Tower is trying to exert control over too many thrones, etc, and will likely accept Moiraine more readily over Elayne as it is someone else, and a Cairhienen rather than an Andor woman. RJ didn't bring it up in New Spring for nothing. She will realize she can no longer run from the duty, and that Cairhien needs a stable and strong ruler, and the connection to the White Tower won't hurt.

[Sharaman]

Moridin already holds Cyndane's mindtrap when he shows Moggy that he has her (Moggy's) mindtrap.

Logain is healed after Rahvin died as you should know if you re-read LoC with some attention to detail.

No, my theory is not based solely on Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear - it is based on a dozen other textual references.

I have never stated it as fact - but as a likely sequence of events that meets what we know.

[WhiskyJack]

Moridin already holds Cyndane's mindtrap when he shows Moggy that he has her (Moggy's) mindtrap.

Logain is healed after Rahvin died as you should know if you re-read LoC with some attention to detail.

No, my theory is not based solely on Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear - it is based on a dozen other textual references.

I have never stated it as fact - but as a likely sequence of events that meets what we know.

 

 

1) Moridin was holding Mindtrap of both Moghy and Cyndane. We don't have any evidence to suggest as to who came first. Moghy was sitting in Vacoule for a while (may be Cyndane too). We have absolutely no clue as to when exactly Cyndane was "raised". It could be one day after Moghy's misshap in SG for all I know.

 

2) Lanfear fell the day Rahvin did. As you just said, Logain was healed after that (a weak or a month or a day)..We don't have have any evidence to suggest that Lanfear was not raised already.

 

 

 

I may be entirely wrong on this but I would like to see a clear textual evidence to back the idea. Also, even if Cyndane was raised just after Logains healing, only way your idea can work as if Lanfear was not drained completely and Moridin found her ded (dead but not drained completely). We don't know that either.

[David Selig]

Where did war come into it at? I never said war. She has a better claim than Elayne. They are both Aes Sedai (or nearly so). The Cairhienen will likely protest that the White Tower is trying to exert control over too many thrones, etc, and will likely accept Moiraine more readily over Elayne as it is someone else, and a Cairhienen rather than an Andor woman. RJ didn't bring it up in New Spring for nothing. She will realize she can no longer run from the duty, and that Cairhien needs a stable and strong ruler, and the connection to the White Tower won't hurt.

So Elayne will just give up the Sun Throne? I highly doubt it. Also I don't see a new political plotline being started in the last book.

 

BTW, I think Elayne has the better claim. Taringail Damodred was older than Moiraine, they were siblings and Cairhien has no gender rules for succession, so he must've been before her in the succession line for the Sun Throne.

[f3llyn]

Well we all know Moiraine has been brought back for some reason and I think it has to do with supporting Rand and Nynaeve with Callandor.

She becomes queen of Cairhien and a supporter of Rand. Her two destinies collide, that of still being the one whose claim is strongest to the throne, and her life's dedication of finding The Dragon Reborn. You already see the resistance with Elayne in the courts. If you look closely at it, this is a good thing, as Andor men and Cairhienen have had many skirmishes over the years raiding one another stealing sheep and Vanin with his horses.

So she would go to war with Elayne with one book left? That makes absolutely no sense. Besides the fact that Elayne already secured Cairhien. I don't want at least a quarter of the last book be about politics to secure a throne that has already been secured, we've already had enough of that.

Where did war come into it at? I never said war. She has a better claim than Elayne. They are both Aes Sedai (or nearly so). The Cairhienen will likely protest that the White Tower is trying to exert control over too many thrones, etc, and will likely accept Moiraine more readily over Elayne as it is someone else, and a Cairhienen rather than an Andor woman. RJ didn't bring it up in New Spring for nothing. She will realize she can no longer run from the duty, and that Cairhien needs a stable and strong ruler, and the connection to the White Tower won't hurt.

It's just something that doesn't need to happen, as I said, the last few books have had way to much in terms of politics. How boring would it be for half the last book to be about people politicking to win a throne that's already been won.

 

And Moiraine wants less to do with her family name, not more. Nothing has changed that as far as we know.

[WhiskyJack]

Well we all know Moiraine has been brought back for some reason and I think it has to do with supporting Rand and Nynaeve with Callandor.

She becomes queen of Cairhien and a supporter of Rand. Her two destinies collide, that of still being the one whose claim is strongest to the throne, and her life's dedication of finding The Dragon Reborn. You already see the resistance with Elayne in the courts. If you look closely at it, this is a good thing, as Andor men and Cairhienen have had many skirmishes over the years raiding one another stealing sheep and Vanin with his horses.

So she would go to war with Elayne with one book left? That makes absolutely no sense. Besides the fact that Elayne already secured Cairhien. I don't want at least a quarter of the last book be about politics to secure a throne that has already been secured, we've already had enough of that.

Where did war come into it at? I never said war. She has a better claim than Elayne. They are both Aes Sedai (or nearly so). The Cairhienen will likely protest that the White Tower is trying to exert control over too many thrones, etc, and will likely accept Moiraine more readily over Elayne as it is someone else, and a Cairhienen rather than an Andor woman. RJ didn't bring it up in New Spring for nothing. She will realize she can no longer run from the duty, and that Cairhien needs a stable and strong ruler, and the connection to the White Tower won't hurt.

 

And then Rand said Elayne and story ended there.

[Sharaman]

Moridin already holds Cyndane's mindtrap when he shows Moggy that he has her (Moggy's) mindtrap.

Logain is healed after Rahvin died as you should know if you re-read LoC with some attention to detail.

No, my theory is not based solely on Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear - it is based on a dozen other textual references.

I have never stated it as fact - but as a likely sequence of events that meets what we know.

 

 

1) Moridin was holding Mindtrap of both Moghy and Cyndane. We don't have any evidence to suggest as to who came first. Moghy was sitting in Vacoule for a while (may be Cyndane too). We have absolutely no clue as to when exactly Cyndane was "raised". It could be one day after Moghy's misshap in SG for all I know.

 

2) Lanfear fell the day Rahvin did. As you just said, Logain was healed after that (a weak or a month or a day)..We don't have have any evidence to suggest that Lanfear was not raised already.

 

 

 

I may be entirely wrong on this but I would like to see a clear textual evidence to back the idea. Also, even if Cyndane was raised just after Logains healing, only way your idea can work as if Lanfear was not drained completely and Moridin found her ded (dead but not drained completely). We don't know that either.

 

(We know how long Moggy was in a vacuole.)

To meet your specific argument, there is no particular reason why the healing must take place immediately upon transmigration.

Logain, Suian, Leane were all healed months afterwords.

It may be the case with Lanfear-Cyndane as well.

 

We know that Lanfear had to be transmigrated.

We know that a saidar channeler who has lost channeling ability can be healed by the same gender only to less than original channeling ability.

We heard (third-party) that Lanfear was drained so rapidly she died.

 

We know that Cyndane is still a very strong channeler (perhaps still the strongest ever)

If the draining "repaired" automatically upon transmigration, she would be back at full strength as Cyndane

So the draining doesn't repair automatically, since there is no other apparent reason why she would be weakened.

 

The loss of channeling ability has either been healed directly or it has been healed via an intermediate process of stilling.

No such method of healing was known before Nynaeve discovered it.

Nyn's method was demonstrated to many channelers, some of whom were both BA and talented healers.

When it was discovered that Cyndane couldn't channel, or could only channel very weakly, she was stilled and healed. It is not relevant exactly in which order the transmigration, healing, etc, happened - it could have happened in any convenient order.

[WhiskyJack]

Loss of channeling ability is a very generic term. Nynaeve can heal "stilling" means the channeler can sense the source but cannot reach it. What Finns do is probably is altogether different thing. They literally suck the channeling ability out of you (essentially turning you into a non channler). That's why Moiraine is such a weak channeler now. It's not the same as being stilled. I think I have made this point many times.

 

Looks like we have come back to the place we started this conversion. Moraine is not stilled and yet she can barely channel. This is not something Nynaeve can heal.

[WhiteJoker]

We heard (third-party) that Lanfear was drained so rapidly she died.

Not really going to join this argument but we don't know that's true and we have reason to suspect that Moiraine was being lied to when she was told that since she indicates that it felt like she was told that more to increase the suffering, and thus what the Elfin/Alfin could enjoy, then because it was true. Which isn't to say it is or isn't but that it's suspect.

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that she didn't die in there and that the man that Moiraine saw (likely Moridin) got Lanfear out after only x amount of her channeling ability was drained. I'm also of the opinion that she was put into the Cyndane body as a punishment since Lanfear is noted to be very vain and very proud; being put into a body that has many of the opposite traits of her original (which she was likely proud of) yet still retaining enough beauty to mock her for what she used to have, seems like a punishment the Dark One would dish out while still keeping his followers away from suicidal depression and thus uselessness.

[didymos]

I always got the impression that Cyndane was mindtrapped from the first moment she "woke up" in her new body.

 

You have to take someone down to the Pit of Doom and do a whole thing before they're mindtrapped. Likely, it was the first thing on the agenda after she woke up.

[WhiskyJack]

We have not seen anyone getting killed for punishment. So I still believe that Lanfear was killed by Finns. There is always this possibility that in their eagerness to feed on her, they drained her quickly which resulted in her death but her channeling ability was reduced only to Cyndane's level and that's what Lanfear got back as Cyndane.

[nwash_10]

I found it quite intriguing that the Finns had the ability to actually drain her strength in the One Power. How in the Light would that be possible?

 

Also, I wonder if she was kept the whole time where they found her, Snow-White style. She was in some sort of induced sleep, it looked like -- still makes me wonder whether they fed her.

 

I also wonder if one of her requests was for her bond with Lan to be severed -- if they were capable of doing so. That way everyone would think she was dead and Lan would go follow his own path.

 

I agree with this. I think it had to be one of her requests. Otherwise, Lan(and probably others) would have tried to save her and they all would have died.

I think the destruction of the doorway severe the bound

 

I do not see how the destruction of the doorway severs the bond.

 

Now of the destruction of the doorway killed Moiraine, and one of her wishes was to be resurrected from that, or simply the Snakes and Foxes ressed her to feed off her, then that is another story.

 

1.)The Ter'angreal was destroyed and it is the only known direct link with the Eelfinn, and as she went to another world entirely, then that broke the bond.

2.)It wouldn't likley reconnect through the Tower of Genji.

3.)Moiraine also knew what would occur down at the docks and a possibility of what would transpire with the rescue.

 

1.)The ToG was a direct link to the world of the Eelfinn. Also, people have speculated that the doorway being destroyed could be the reason for Mo and Lan's bond breaking but it's just speculation. It hasn't been explicitly stated how or why their bond was broken.

 

2.)I'm not even sure where to begin with this statement. Also, I'm a bit confused with your logic. You start by saying, "The Ter'angreal was destroyed and it is the only known direct link with the Eelfinn," but then in the next sentence you say, "It wouldn't likley reconnect through the Tower of Genji." So, you're contradicting yourself, why would it reconnect through the ToG if it doesn't link to the Eelfinn world? So are you arguing that the ToG is or is not a link to the Eelfinn world? Even though, we know that Mat, Thom, and Noal(Jain) use the ToG to enter the world of the Eelfinn.

Maybe I'm just not getting what you're saying. Can you explain it a little more? If the ToG is a legitimate link to the world of the Eelfinn then I don't see why the bond would break...It's like bricking up the front door to a house and saying that there's no way inside, when there's a backdoor into the house that isn't bricked up. (I know, a weird analogy...but hopefully you get what I'm saying)

 

3.)I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? We've known for awhile now that Mo knew possible future outcomes from her trip into Rhuidean. That isn't something new.

 

I think we can only speculate at this point why MO's bond to Lan was broken...hopefully, we'll learn more in aMoL.

[f3llyn]

Yes, I think it will be an interesting scene when and if Lan/Moiraine confront each other. I think Lan will throw her in another lake.