Moiraine

[dwn]

I just re-read the first half of New Spring (got sucked in looking for 'kesiera'), and while Moiraine is quite the prim and proper Cairhienin, she does spend a good bit of time looking at men.

 

I agree the marriage proposal was abrupt, but there were definitely hints of attraction there. I read it as Moiraine thinking "Min is never wrong and the world is ending, so lets get on with it."

 

-- dwn

[f3llyn]

Am I the only one that agrees with Mat, wondering exactly what the Thom/Moiraine relationship was based on? In its own way, it's even more baseless than the beginning of the Perrin/Faile relationship-they've probably spent less time together than any other couple in WoT to date, and they've decided to get married. They also aren't hormone-driven teenagers.

 

Here's the catalogue of their interactions:

 

1) They meet on Winternight in EotW. Lan doesn't really trust Thom because he didn't see him when the Trollocs showed up (it's a red herring). Thom doesn't trust Moiraine because he dislikes Aes Sedai.

 

2) They travel together for 11 days before being separated in Shadar Logoth. At this point, they've not really established a rapport, since Thom still doesn't trust Aes Sedai and tries to dissuade Mat and Rand from going to Tar Valon.

 

3) They don't meet again until over a year later, when they show up at the same time in Tear. They're in the same place for 19 days, then. I would infer that their interactions are pretty limited there because it's only on the day they both leave that they share what they know of each others' pasts, and then that they talk about Thom's knee (as Moiraine Heals it) which is old news.

 

4) Hard to say exactly how much time passes until they meet in the Tower of Ghenjei, but it's over a year later, and they immediately decide to get married.

And through all that, they've still spent more time together than Rand and Elayne(they were really only ever together in the Stone of Tear). All of the relationships are forced for the most part so it's not really a surprise there.

 

Not really any point in that statement but it's true if you think about it. And Moiraine tells Egwene and Elayne and perhaps Nyneave was there, too, early in book 4 I think it was that she knows the face of the man she will marry probably better than any of those 3.

[Sharaman]

Am I the only one that agrees with Mat, wondering exactly what the Thom/Moiraine relationship was based on? In its own way, it's even more baseless than the beginning of the Perrin/Faile relationship-they've probably spent less time together than any other couple in WoT to date, and they've decided to get married. They also aren't hormone-driven teenagers.

 

Here's the catalogue of their interactions:

 

1) They meet on Winternight in EotW. Lan doesn't really trust Thom because he didn't see him when the Trollocs showed up (it's a red herring). Thom doesn't trust Moiraine because he dislikes Aes Sedai.

 

2) They travel together for 11 days before being separated in Shadar Logoth. At this point, they've not really established a rapport, since Thom still doesn't trust Aes Sedai and tries to dissuade Mat and Rand from going to Tar Valon.

 

3) They don't meet again until over a year later, when they show up at the same time in Tear. They're in the same place for 19 days, then. I would infer that their interactions are pretty limited there because it's only on the day they both leave that they share what they know of each others' pasts, and then that they talk about Thom's knee (as Moiraine Heals it) which is old news.

 

4) Hard to say exactly how much time passes until they meet in the Tower of Ghenjei, but it's over a year later, and they immediately decide to get married.

And through all that, they've still spent more time together than Rand and Elayne(they were really only ever together in the Stone of Tear). All of the relationships are forced for the most part so it's not really a surprise there.

 

Not really any point in that statement but it's true if you think about it. And Moiraine tells Egwene and Elayne and perhaps Nyneave was there, too, early in book 4 I think it was that she knows the face of the man she will marry probably better than any of those 3.

Rand-Elayne are teenagers who've gone through several heavy petting sessions.

Different for a 45-year-old virgin who's talked politics once with a 65-year-old washout.

[AutomatedTeller]

Sure, it's fast. On the other hand, Moiraine has gone through 2 ter'angreals that show the/some future (raise to accepted and rhuidean) and has gotten questions answered by the Aelfinn - one of which was almost certainly about her and Thom, since she knew for a fact that she would see him again - she told him straight out.

 

And from Thom, it's hardly out of the blue:

 

From The Shadow Rising, chapter "Deceptions", p 276 (of my edition)

 

"Now there was a beautiful woman, with every grace a man could want, including laughing at his quips. Fool! Old Fool! She's Aes Sedai, and you're to tired to think straight."

 

And she certainly knew who he was before hand, and he knew her - I mean, she basically said that Thom killed Taringail to protect Morgase... and Moiraine was Taringail's youngest half-sister.

 

I mean, they spend 3 weeks in close contact - attraction could easily grow from that.

[jwillis7]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

Are people's memories REALLY this poor? Seriously??? The angreal in question, which Moraine is now using, is one which she took from Rhuidean. She laid it out on the wagon the night before she went through the gateway at the docks of Cairhein, and it was being used by Lanfear at the time, which is the reason she was able to so easily handle Rand during that fight (along with his unwillingness to actually kill a woman).

I'm pretty certain Moiraine actually stated that she got it was a result of one of her requests.

 

I recommend you examine your OWN memory and re-read the relevant chapters.

No, it is the one that Lanfear was using at the end of FoH to hurt Rand/Aviendha/Egwene. Moiraine was able to keep it as one of her requests. It's described in that chapter as well as a man bent backwards with his arms and legs tied together. And we know that no two angreals are similar (until the dream ones that Elayne makes that is). Moiraine even says that she hated it, which makes it even more curious as to why she would ask to keep it.

 

About that bond with Lan, I don't see why a death needs to be involved. For all intents and purposes, Moirane died to Lan as soon as she went through the door way and his bond was transferred. He would just assume like everyone else that she died. He just says something along the lines of "she's dead, I can feel the new one now, I must go". The shock of seeing her fall through the door and it going up in flames and having his bond transferred to another was enough for him to just assume she died. Also I think it would be a bit lame for her to have to waste one of her requests on something like that.

its on the cover of the ebook, so she had it before going in the doorway

[Jackattack]

I just have to add my 2 crowns here. I loved this arc...until Moiraine woke up. Her permanent depowering seems random and her affection for Thom seems sudden and strange. I know there was some tension in prior books but I seriously doubted that she would wake up, offer to give up channeling with TDO still to fight and the Dragon to guide, for an old juggler.

 

If so, i need to get me a patchwork cloak and some juggling skills ASAP.

[innloine]

 

Rand-Elayne are teenagers who've gone through several heavy petting sessions.

Different for a 45-year-old virgin who's talked politics once with a 65-year-old washout.

Siuan took Moiraine's virginity a long time ago.

[f3llyn]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

Are people's memories REALLY this poor? Seriously??? The angreal in question, which Moraine is now using, is one which she took from Rhuidean. She laid it out on the wagon the night before she went through the gateway at the docks of Cairhein, and it was being used by Lanfear at the time, which is the reason she was able to so easily handle Rand during that fight (along with his unwillingness to actually kill a woman).

I'm pretty certain Moiraine actually stated that she got it was a result of one of her requests.

 

I recommend you examine your OWN memory and re-read the relevant chapters.

No, it is the one that Lanfear was using at the end of FoH to hurt Rand/Aviendha/Egwene. Moiraine was able to keep it as one of her requests. It's described in that chapter as well as a man bent backwards with his arms and legs tied together. And we know that no two angreals are similar (until the dream ones that Elayne makes that is). Moiraine even says that she hated it, which makes it even more curious as to why she would ask to keep it.

 

About that bond with Lan, I don't see why a death needs to be involved. For all intents and purposes, Moirane died to Lan as soon as she went through the door way and his bond was transferred. He would just assume like everyone else that she died. He just says something along the lines of "she's dead, I can feel the new one now, I must go". The shock of seeing her fall through the door and it going up in flames and having his bond transferred to another was enough for him to just assume she died. Also I think it would be a bit lame for her to have to waste one of her requests on something like that.

its on the cover of the ebook, so she had it before going in the doorway

Right, because as was said, she put it on the wagon with the Doorway the night before and Lanfear picks it up when she goes berserk. Moiraine claws it out of her hands as they fall through the doorway.

 

Re-read that scene again, FoH, "Choices" pg 892-893 softcover version. The very end of the chapter.

[A2597]

Am I the only one that agrees with Mat, wondering exactly what the Thom/Moiraine relationship was based on? In its own way, it's even more baseless than the beginning of the Perrin/Faile relationship-they've probably spent less time together than any other couple in WoT to date, and they've decided to get married. They also aren't hormone-driven teenagers.

 

Here's the catalogue of their interactions:

 

1) They meet on Winternight in EotW. Lan doesn't really trust Thom because he didn't see him when the Trollocs showed up (it's a red herring). Thom doesn't trust Moiraine because he dislikes Aes Sedai.

 

2) They travel together for 11 days before being separated in Shadar Logoth. At this point, they've not really established a rapport, since Thom still doesn't trust Aes Sedai and tries to dissuade Mat and Rand from going to Tar Valon.

 

3) They don't meet again until over a year later, when they show up at the same time in Tear. They're in the same place for 19 days, then. I would infer that their interactions are pretty limited there because it's only on the day they both leave that they share what they know of each others' pasts, and then that they talk about Thom's knee (as Moiraine Heals it) which is old news.

 

4) Hard to say exactly how much time passes until they meet in the Tower of Ghenjei, but it's over a year later, and they immediately decide to get married.

 

The romance is a little forced. Especially on Moiraine's part since she's never shown any interest in men.

Thom is more easy-come easy-go and she has helped him several ways by keeping silence on his regicides, healing him, helping him get close to Elayne, and promising him revenge on the Reds who gentled Owain. Also old men find it fairly easy to fall for younger beautiful women and Moiraine is that.

I suppose you could say that they've both got a mutual respect for each other's minds?

 

Yes, I agree. I was beginning to think I was the only one who felt this way. But a lot of people are really diggin' it, so I just chalked it up to me having a cold anorexic heart. I shed no tears when they embraced and just found their tender moments odd fitting.

 

I've said it before, but it seems my only recourse is to tell myself that a lot happened between those two that were were just not shown, maybe Thom and Moiraine were having romantic interludes between scenes of killing darkhounds and balefiring Bel'al. Perhaps a quick sweet song about a blue gem in the snow accompanied by the pinging of a harp. These are the lengths I must go through to swallow this romance between the cool Blue and the old Bard.

 

 

A bit sudden perhaps, but at the same time...not totally. They did spend time together, Thom mentioned her a few times, and she thought kindley on Thom as well. Being...you know...mostly dead and then freed can also change your perspective. Add to that the possibility that she has to marry thom in order to help rand in some way we havn't thought of...who knows?

 

Overall, while the marriage proposal was sudden, it was not unexpected either.

[Kaznen]

When Mo and Thom were professing their love for each other I thought back to tSR and a couple of scenes made sense that I didn't know were muddled. I was like, "but wait a sec...ohhhh..."

[waffle]

Am I the only one that agrees with Mat, wondering exactly what the Thom/Moiraine relationship was based on? In its own way, it's even more baseless than the beginning of the Perrin/Faile ...

 

what the diddly are you talking about? Faile was pretty smitten early on by my guess, but they took a good long time before they started declaring their love for one another.

[Jeangray]

Actually, Moiraine was never _really_ cool, etc. she just had a Mr. Spock thing going. By nature she is pretty fiery, as has been hinted many times throughout the books when she had to struggle to keep herself in check. Also, while she liked to shroud herself in mystery, she could be very direct, i.e. "I will kill you before I let the DO have you", etc. What is more, Min told her that she and Thom would marry back in TEoTW. And really, didn't Mat read her letter? Her feelings were already pretty clear there and she was plainly regretting not having spoken up earlier.

 

Re: Cahirienin being prim in romantical matters, apart from NS, where Moiraine suddenly mutated into a clone of Elayne in that respect, they never were. Not that traditions ever fettered Moiraine in the series proper in any case...

 

I actually liked that Moiraine didn't make a production of it. And after what Mat did for both of them, after what they all have been through - why not profess her feelings in front of him?

 

There were other WTF moments for me however - her offer to _throw away_ the angreal on the eve of TG, for instance. But maybe she was certain that Thom couldn't be a jackass and take her up on it?

Or that she didn't ask Mat about Lan.

 

Speaking about the angreal, BTW, I still wonder why Moiraine used one of her wishes on keeping it. Did she foresee in the rings that asking for something stronger would inflate the price of her rescue, making it impossible? Or what? IMHO there needs to be an explanation why she didn't go for broke with all her wishes.

[Dutch impatience]

Honestly, give poor old Moiraine a break. I reckon she deserves a little romance after everything she's done. Like everyone is saying, the LAST BATTLE is here

might as well enjoy the time they have left.

[Deadsy]

There were other WTF moments for me however - her offer to _throw away_ the angreal on the eve of TG, for instance. But maybe she was certain that Thom couldn't be a jackass and take her up on it?

Or that she didn't ask Mat about Lan.

 

 

I agree with the last two posts. I've been head-desking most of my way through this thread.

 

Mat has just seen Moiraine in her most vulnerable state, she's just been through the worst ordeal of her life, and he nearly died saving her. She's already wearing a sleeping bag for a dress, what does she care that he sees her propose? It is absolutely NOT out of character for her to propose in front of him, given that. I've felt since her disappearance that when they rescued her, we would see her as "human" for the first time. She'll still be her normal "cool" self in front of everyone but those two and Rand, I'm sure. But she doesn't need to be "Aes Sedai" around those three people.

 

 

I was okay with the angreal thing. She was just being overly-romantical. Silly drama queen

 

 

 

Oh, and I have always liked this relationship. Long before the letter. I mean, Mo laughs three times in the entire main series. Twice because of Thom and once when she catches the fish. That's practically like kissing him in front of 100 people. She never laughs at any other point that I recall.

Then, in the Stone of Tear, she has to hide a smile in front of Thom because she thinks it's cute that he says he wants a quiet life. If that had been any other character we would have been reading that their face had turned bright red. It was clear she was smitten at that point.

[Mystica]

I understand the reserved and incredulous feelings most of you are feeling, as true enough she seemed quite different from the controlled/in-charge Moiraine we've all known before. A woman that was completely and utterly dedicated to her cause (as a true Blue), who we knew had her passions and personality traits but had a firm grip on them through training and experience (she wasn't as in controlled in New Spring when she dumped an entire river on Lan's head and terrorized him all the way to her destination with trick after trick to make him uncomfortable). Moiraine has passion but it's tightly reigned in and under control. She is the ultimate warrior of the Light, dedicated to the survival of the soul over the body. That's the MO of the woman so far, and part of why she's so respected and loved by so many.

 

But she IS a woman, human. She too has her breaking point, like everyone else. A very wise, strong of character and determined woman. A woman so dedicated to the Light that she 'would' sacrifice the Dragon Reborn to keep the Shadow from claiming him (and in doing so doom everyone). The first Aes Sedai to lay down her imprinted lessons of Aes Sedai superiority and replace it with willing obedience and servitude towards Rand without the need of him demanding an Oath. The first to lay down her pride and self-importance for the good of all. She remains to this day the first and only Aes Sedai to do so willingly, out of her own choice and without being pushed to it by force or ta'veren manipulation. But out of her own understanding and insight, based on....

 

What she saw when she went to Rhuidean. No other Aes Sedai has that insight, that added information, that edge.

 

She saw her handling Rand in so many different ways in Rhuidean, saw herself fail so many times, saw her actions lead to disaster so many times. She saw and learned humility, swallowed her pride and did what needed to be done: become a follower, adviser to the Dragon Reborn instead of a guide/manipulator/user. For she 'knew' that was the only way to succeed.

 

We know that she 'knew' she would marry Tom through Min's viewing. Min's never wrong.

We know that she 'knew' she would face Lanfear and be imprisoned by the Finn, for she has seen it in Rhuidean.

We know that she 'knew' she would be rescued by Tom, Mat and one other, for she has seen it in Rhuidean. She didn't know the rescue would succeed, she only knew which attempt would have the highest chance of succes. It is not unlikely that she also 'knew' which wishes she needed to make that would be part of that highest chance of succes. It's not unlikely to assume she would have tried out different wishes in Rhuidean (just as she's tried out different ways to handle Rand) and saw them fail, leading up to the three wishes which would help create the best chance for succes.

 

All of this 'knowing' doesn't change the fact that she is human, however. Being tortured like that is extremely draining and not just in the One Power. Solitary confinement is considered one of the toughest punishments in prison because it ends up de-humanizing a person. Reducing them back to a more bestial state. And that's without any added torture, as Moiraine has had. The mind starts playing tricks on you and perspectives change and priorities alter through near-death experiences. People that were 100% work adicts are known to completely change character and personality after a near-death experience, quitting their jobs and suddenly doing things that no one would have thought possible from them.

 

Moiraine's been through worse than solitary confinement or near-death experience. She's been forced to walk in to this situation in the full knowledge of what lay ahead and in the full knowledge of it leading to her being removed from the events currently (at the time of her going through the doorway) unfolding in the world: the Dragon Reborn walking the earth, the DO getting free, the forsaken out and about, the world and the Light on the edge of destruction. And her, a Blue dedicated to this and nothing else since she was Accepted, forced to walk in to a faith that will leave her powerless to play any part in it.

 

So now she's out, having gone through all of that and knowing the world went on without her. The Dragon went on without her. The Wheel turned without her. Sobering, yet also liberating, that realisation. For the weight one might feel on one's shoulders lifts when they realise that they can share that weight and trust the Light and the Pattern will distribute the weight as it must to achieve what must be achieved.

 

In the face of all that, and with the added experiences she's been through, things like proper decorum, modesty and primness seem rather small and ridiculous. I've no doubt that once she's recovered more from her ordeal she'll return more to her former self (as interaction with community will do to a person, after all), but for now she's overwhelmed by her sudden freedom and surival, knowing the LB is at hand and realising there may not be much time left for any of them. That she does so in the presence of Mat is a bit strange, but not that strange, considered from that point of view. Why would she hold to a level of modesty or reservation in the presence of one who has read her letter to Tom? It's not like they're making out in front of him. lol

 

No, her reaction is quite human and therefore more real. She'll be epic still, despite her reduced power and she's even more a beackon of hope because of it.

 

As for throwing the angreal away, I doubt she meant that literally. She'd have gotten it to the White Tower, I'm sure. She wouldn't let that lay around waiting for one of the Forsaken to pick it up. Even if she renounced her status as Aes Sedai. This is Moiraine, after all. Give her some credit.

 

 

Wow..... long post, sorry about that.

[Sharaman]

Obviously whatever Moiraine learnt/ bargained out of the Finns, makes her own strength in the OP unimportant.

She doesn't need to perform some immensely complex weave or whatever, just guide Rand and other Lightsiders strategically.

It's her knowledge and the fact that Rand (and to some extent Mat and Perrin) trusts her that's important, people - Rand can have stronger channelers of both sexes up the kazoo for the asking.

[Jeangray]

She doesn't need to perform some immensely complex weave or whatever, just guide Rand and other Lightsiders strategically.

 

I hope that you are wrong. Moiraine was always a hands-on character, a warrior as well an adviser and I'd hate to see her relegated to the status of Siuan/Morgase. It would be like Mat losing an arm and a leg - he's still be able to be a general, but it would diminish his character a lot.

 

OTOH, Moiraine didn't actually see/recall any Randland future after her doorway dive. She only saw the possible death/rescue scenarios for herself. So, what she may believe about her new role and what it turns out to be may be 2 very different things.

[Sharaman]

She wouldn't contemplate chucking away the ang'real if she thought her own strength in the OP made a difference to the Light's prospects.

Meta-textually, what's the point of just bringing another channeler into the game?

It's Moiraine's other qualities that make her important - she's like an adjunct to Min - another non-channeler whose inputs have been vital.

[Jeangray]

She wouldn't contemplate chucking away the ang'real if she thought her own strength in the OP made a difference to the Light's prospects.

 

Maybe Moiraine was very sure that Thom, the man who came to rescue her from the Finn at a terrible peril to himself couldn't be enough of a jerk to make her throw away an angreal on the eve of the Last Battle (or ever)? Something that could be a matter of life and death not only to herself or Thom, but potentially hundreds/thousands of people? The fact remains, that she did spend one of her wishes on this angreal, so her still having access to a decent amount of OP will be significant somehow.

 

It's Moiraine's other qualities that make her important - she's like an adjunct to Min - another non-channeler whose inputs have been vital.

 

Why would an adjunct to Min be needed in such a case? Min could do it all by herself or with Cadsuane's help. Also most of Min's inputs had to do with being a seer and Rand's lover. Oh, I don't doubt that she will come up with something crucial re: prophecies and/or Sealing, but why bring Moiraine back just to assist her?

 

And BTW, this begs the question - were LTT and other AoLers just too chicken to barter with the Finn for knowledge about the Sealing?

[Demon_AS]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

Are people's memories REALLY this poor? Seriously??? The angreal in question, which Moraine is now using, is one which she took from Rhuidean. She laid it out on the wagon the night before she went through the gateway at the docks of Cairhein, and it was being used by Lanfear at the time, which is the reason she was able to so easily handle Rand during that fight (along with his unwillingness to actually kill a woman).

I'm pretty certain Moiraine actually stated that she got it was a result of one of her requests.

 

I recommend you examine your OWN memory and re-read the relevant chapters.

No, it is the one that Lanfear was using at the end of FoH to hurt Rand/Aviendha/Egwene. Moiraine was able to keep it as one of her requests. It's described in that chapter as well as a man bent backwards with his arms and legs tied together. And we know that no two angreals are similar (until the dream ones that Elayne makes that is). Moiraine even says that she hated it, which makes it even more curious as to why she would ask to keep it.

 

About that bond with Lan, I don't see why a death needs to be involved. For all intents and purposes, Moirane died to Lan as soon as she went through the door way and his bond was transferred. He would just assume like everyone else that she died. He just says something along the lines of "she's dead, I can feel the new one now, I must go". The shock of seeing her fall through the door and it going up in flames and having his bond transferred to another was enough for him to just assume she died. Also I think it would be a bit lame for her to have to waste one of her requests on something like that.

its on the cover of the ebook, so she had it before going in the doorway

Fair point, I guess I owe someone an apology lol.

 

Sorry about that, I was convinced I'd read it right.

 

As for Thom and Moiraine's relationship - I agree that it's sort of sprung up out of nowhere. But if you examine Rand and his harem, Aviendha had a vision saying she was fated to fall in love with Rand, and I think that's the point here: at this point, people are falling in "love" with each other as accords to the will of the Pattern. So, it's a bit like love at first sight - recall Elayne's obvious infatuation with Rand when he falls off the wall into her garden in Caemlyn in TEOTW. She's a Princess and thus bound to be exposed to many handsome men, yet she falls for a random shepherd?!

[Jhirrad]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

Are people's memories REALLY this poor? Seriously??? The angreal in question, which Moraine is now using, is one which she took from Rhuidean. She laid it out on the wagon the night before she went through the gateway at the docks of Cairhein, and it was being used by Lanfear at the time, which is the reason she was able to so easily handle Rand during that fight (along with his unwillingness to actually kill a woman).

I'm pretty certain Moiraine actually stated that she got it was a result of one of her requests.

 

I recommend you examine your OWN memory and re-read the relevant chapters.

 

The Finn didn't GIVE it to her, they let her KEEP it. HUGE difference. It came through the doorway with her and Lanfear. Try again.

[Sharaman]

She wouldn't contemplate chucking away the ang'real if she thought her own strength in the OP made a difference to the Light's prospects.

 

Maybe Moiraine was very sure that Thom, the man who came to rescue her from the Finn at a terrible peril to himself couldn't be enough of a jerk to make her throw away an angreal on the eve of the Last Battle (or ever)? Something that could be a matter of life and death not only to herself or Thom, but potentially hundreds/thousands of people? The fact remains, that she did spend one of her wishes on this angreal, so her still having access to a decent amount of OP will be significant somehow.

 

It's Moiraine's other qualities that make her important - she's like an adjunct to Min - another non-channeler whose inputs have been vital.

 

Why would an adjunct to Min be needed in such a case? Min could do it all by herself or with Cadsuane's help. Also most of Min's inputs had to do with being a seer and Rand's lover. Oh, I don't doubt that she will come up with something crucial re: prophecies and/or Sealing, but why bring Moiraine back just to assist her?

 

And BTW, this begs the question - were LTT and other AoLers just too chicken to barter with the Finn for knowledge about the Sealing?

She's AS - cannot break her word if, just if, he says "yes, throw it away".

Would a Royal Blue who's gone through so much, risk not being able to save the world for a whim?

I meant "adjunct to Min" in the sense that it's Moiraine's knowledge and the trust Rand has in her that's important, not her channeling ability (or lack of it).

We don't know where the ToG was and the Doors at Tear/ Rhuidean. Mat's implanted memories start long after the Breaking which suggests that Finnland wasn't easily accessible in AoL.

[Jeangray]

She's AS - cannot break her word if, just if, he says "yes, throw it away". Would a Royal Blue who's gone through so much, risk not being able to save the world for a whim?

 

Yes, but throwing away a strong angreal on the eve of the TG is madness in any case and totally unworthy of a Royal Blue. If she truly believed that Thom could hold her to it, wouldn't she have offered to never use it and give it away at the first opportunity? She didn't promise not to use other *angreal or not to link, either. What an AS tells you... ;).

I also kind of don't understand why Thom's problems with channeling women suddenly re-appeared now after volumes spent tagging after SGs and not having any problems with their channeling. I mean, he moped and played mournful music for ages, then went to ToG drawing Mat and Noal into an extremely risky endeavor (and would have gone alone, to certain death), hauled Moiraine around for hours of mortal danger and after all that when she proposes to him, he hesitates and brings up her being an OP user? Huh?

IMHO, all of this is rather jarring and problematic motivation-wise.

 

We don't know where the ToG was and the Doors at Tear/ Rhuidean. Mat's implanted memories start long after the Breaking which suggests that Finnland wasn't easily accessible in AoL.

 

AoL battle memories wouldn't have been of much use to Mat, since they relied on OP and tech so much. And didn't Brigitte say that AoL AS made the doorways and used them? The fact that Rhuidean doorway was given to Aiel among other power objects is suggestive, too.

 

And IMHO, if Moiraine doesn't do something hands-on, she could have just as well remained dead. Doers were always the interesting ones in WoT and now towards the end more than ever. We have waited so long for her return and there better be a huge pay-back!

[Jhirrad]

She wouldn't contemplate chucking away the ang'real if she thought her own strength in the OP made a difference to the Light's prospects.

 

Maybe Moiraine was very sure that Thom, the man who came to rescue her from the Finn at a terrible peril to himself couldn't be enough of a jerk to make her throw away an angreal on the eve of the Last Battle (or ever)? Something that could be a matter of life and death not only to herself or Thom, but potentially hundreds/thousands of people? The fact remains, that she did spend one of her wishes on this angreal, so her still having access to a decent amount of OP will be significant somehow.

 

It's Moiraine's other qualities that make her important - she's like an adjunct to Min - another non-channeler whose inputs have been vital.

 

Why would an adjunct to Min be needed in such a case? Min could do it all by herself or with Cadsuane's help. Also most of Min's inputs had to do with being a seer and Rand's lover. Oh, I don't doubt that she will come up with something crucial re: prophecies and/or Sealing, but why bring Moiraine back just to assist her?

 

And BTW, this begs the question - were LTT and other AoLers just too chicken to barter with the Finn for knowledge about the Sealing?

She's AS - cannot break her word if, just if, he says "yes, throw it away".

Would a Royal Blue who's gone through so much, risk not being able to save the world for a whim?

I meant "adjunct to Min" in the sense that it's Moiraine's knowledge and the trust Rand has in her that's important, not her channeling ability (or lack of it).

We don't know where the ToG was and the Doors at Tear/ Rhuidean. Mat's implanted memories start long after the Breaking which suggests that Finnland wasn't easily accessible in AoL.

But we know that the doors are ter'angreal. And the making of those was lost from the time of the Breaking until like 6 months ago or so. It seems probable that the doors were constructed in the Age of Legends. I think their use was likely extremely limited at that time though. If those Aes Sedai understood what the Finn essentially feed off of, they (as much more powerful channelers) would likely have used extreme caution when going there, if they ever did at all. Though this is all pure speculation. As a counterpoint to my own argument, it's interesting that none of the Forsaken ever said anything about them or the doorways. We know that at least Lanfear and Asmodean spent a good deal of time around one of them.

[Baelorn]

As a counterpoint to my own argument, it's interesting that none of the Forsaken ever said anything about them or the doorways. We know that at least Lanfear and Asmodean spent a good deal of time around one of them.

 

I'm not sure the Forsaken could use them without extreme risk. I mean anything they asked, or asked for, would be touching the Shadow in some way.