Moiraine

[A2597]

Moiraine even states that the finns were draining lanfear, and far faster than they were her IIRC...help just came a lot faster for Lanfear. I wouldn't doubt that as her punishment she was killed, then brought back. I imagine it's a very painful experience.

[Annia]

Am I the only one that agrees with Mat, wondering exactly what the Thom/Moiraine relationship was based on? In its own way, it's even more baseless than the beginning of the Perrin/Faile relationship-they've probably spent less time together than any other couple in WoT to date, and they've decided to get married. They also aren't hormone-driven teenagers.

 

Here's the catalogue of their interactions:

 

1) They meet on Winternight in EotW. Lan doesn't really trust Thom because he didn't see him when the Trollocs showed up (it's a red herring). Thom doesn't trust Moiraine because he dislikes Aes Sedai.

 

2) They travel together for 11 days before being separated in Shadar Logoth. At this point, they've not really established a rapport, since Thom still doesn't trust Aes Sedai and tries to dissuade Mat and Rand from going to Tar Valon.

 

3) They don't meet again until over a year later, when they show up at the same time in Tear. They're in the same place for 19 days, then. I would infer that their interactions are pretty limited there because it's only on the day they both leave that they share what they know of each others' pasts, and then that they talk about Thom's knee (as Moiraine Heals it) which is old news.

 

4) Hard to say exactly how much time passes until they meet in the Tower of Ghenjei, but it's over a year later, and they immediately decide to get married.

 

The romance is a little forced. Especially on Moiraine's part since she's never shown any interest in men.

Thom is more easy-come easy-go and she has helped him several ways by keeping silence on his regicides, healing him, helping him get close to Elayne, and promising him revenge on the Reds who gentled Owain. Also old men find it fairly easy to fall for younger beautiful women and Moiraine is that.

I suppose you could say that they've both got a mutual respect for each other's minds?

 

Yes, I agree. I was beginning to think I was the only one who felt this way. But a lot of people are really diggin' it, so I just chalked it up to me having a cold anorexic heart. I shed no tears when they embraced and just found their tender moments odd fitting.

 

I've said it before, but it seems my only recourse is to tell myself that a lot happened between those two that were were just not shown, maybe Thom and Moiraine were having romantic interludes between scenes of killing darkhounds and balefiring Bel'al. Perhaps a quick sweet song about a blue gem in the snow accompanied by the pinging of a harp. These are the lengths I must go through to swallow this romance between the cool Blue and the old Bard.

 

 

It seems kinda extreme to suggest that Moiraine never showed interest in men. Aside from the fact that she certainly enjoyed looking at men in the New Spring... We simply didn't really get many PoVs from Moiraine before her her Finnland gig to say anything one way or another. Mat, Rand and Perrin would never have been able to even see it if she had been making eyes at Thom regularly since they never thought of her in those terms. It is likely that others would have thought that she had other motives if she showed any interest in Thom, as well. That Aes Sedai composure has to be good for something...

[Annia]

Callandor will be used by Rand and the two most sought after characters in Randland. Demandred and Gaidal Cain. Cain has been reborn as a girl and Demandred had some surgery.

 

I love you waffle!

[nleseul]

You must be a woman!!!

 

Just when it seemed like this argument couldn't get any more ridiculous...

[Jeangray]

It seems kinda extreme to suggest that Moiraine never showed interest in men.

 

Indeed, she and Siuan even had that slightly weird discussion in TGH where they clearly regretted lack of husbands and families in their lives. NS pillow friendship felt like a rather awkward retcon in that respect.

Also, Moiraine's letter to Thom was also rather candid re: "words from my heart" that she regretted never having spoken to him.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Lanfear could have died because of her connections to the shadow :B she probs spent a wish on something she shouldn't have.

[lordofsoup]

What did she spend her wishes on, and did Moraine hear Lanfears wishes. The Finn's told Moraine that they were draining Lanfear's strength too fast, and she died. They probably never had a channeler prisoner for a long period of time before, so were not being careful. They started draining Lanfear very fast and it killed her before they could take everything from her. They were much more careful with Moraine. They also could have know that Mat was coming, so they wanted to get something from Mat before they tried to escape.

[Annia]

Loss of channeling ability is a very generic term. Nynaeve can heal "stilling" means the channeler can sense the source but cannot reach it. What Finns do is probably is altogether different thing. They literally suck the channeling ability out of you (essentially turning you into a non channler). That's why Moiraine is such a weak channeler now. It's not the same as being stilled. I think I have made this point many times.

 

Looks like we have come back to the place we started this conversion. Moraine is not stilled and yet she can barely channel. This is not something Nynaeve can heal.

 

Going by your belief, the difference between Cyndane-Lanfear in strength is what the Finns drained.

Since Cyndane is still an extremely strong channeler, they could not have drained very much.

In that case, even if it was done very fast, she wouldn't have died.

We know that you can lose 100% of channeling ability instantly and live.

I'd suggest that they would have had to drain a lot or almost everything for shock to kill Lanfear.

 

 

Lol, again you are assuming that severing and draining are similar enough phenomenon that same rules actually apply here. I have always seen a channelers potential as a width of the channel that they can draw power from True Source. The wider the channel, the more power you can reach through it. When you are severed, you get disattached from your channel, your potential. This does not mean that the channel is distroyed, simply that you cannot reach through it anymore since you are not connected to your side of it. Nynaeve healed severing by bridging a gap that she sensed. Voíla, Logain received all his channeling ability back.

 

When drained, this is not what happens at all. For them to reduce your potential, it means that they must be doing damage to the channel itself. The diameter of your connection gets reduced as they feed on you. It seems to be more of a violation. I visualize the end result as abused tissue that is not able to recover fully after taking damage, like crooked and stiff scar tissue that does not flex at all.

 

I'm not saying that it will be impossible to be Healed. In fact I believe completely the opposite. I just believe that the weave Nynaeve used to heal gentling would have absolutely no effect since the problem is not the same: There is no gap to bridge. I totally believe after seeing her visualize the Madness and figuring out how to cure that, that she can do the same here. She just needs to Delve with an equally open mind, not just assume that she already has solved this, and then consider it a failure once the old weave doesn't have any effect.

 

It didn't actually say that Lanfear died because the Finns drained so much of her power. It said that she died because they tried to drain her too quickly. The attack her connection to the True Source was under caused her to go to shock and die. She did not die because she lost too much of her potential, but because of her channel's reaction to the abuse. If they said that she died from it, I believe that is how she died. Whether this happened before or after the MAN came to look for her does not matter, since we do not know if the DO would have been able to reach her soul in the ToG.

[Tiinker]

Lanfear : 100%

Finns drain 20% very quickly causing her to die of shock(or whatever).

Cyndane resurrected : 80%

 

Moiraine : 100%

Drained 80% slowly and kept alive.

Moiraine rescued : 20%

[dwn]

It didn't actually say that Lanfear died because the Finns drained so much of her power. It said that she died because they tried to drain her too quickly. The attack her connection to the True Source was under caused her to go to shock and die. She did not die because she lost too much of her potential, but because of her channel's reaction to the abuse. If they said that she died from it, I believe that is how she died. Whether this happened before or after the MAN came to look for her does not matter, since we do not know if the DO would have been able to reach her soul in the ToG.

 

It's conceivable that the *Finn panicked when Moridin showed up to free Lanfear, and tried to get as much channeller juice out of her as possible before releasing her to him. It does seem likely that the she could die from the shock of it. This would make sense because 1) if she were dead beforehand, why would Moridin bother to show up at all, 2) the *Finn are tricksy, but we haven't seen them outright lie, and 3) offering him Moiraine seems kinda stupid and clumsy, unless it was a simple delaying tactic.

 

-- dwn

[IceGhost13]

I tend to agree that it seems more likely Lanfear/Cyndane was drained quickly and died of shock, not that 100% of her power was taken. The idea that she is brought back and then healed just seems to convoluted to me when most things seem to have happened for a reason so far. The Finns may not have drained her channeling ability (if this is indeed what they do, as this seems in my opinion to be the case) alone, but other aspects of her life-force such as her emotions as well. It also seems that to introduce this as a problem that can be fixed with a solution we have seen before would just be clumsy writing.

 

When Siuan and Leane were stilled, the problem had not yet been solved. Therefore it was introduced as a major minor plotpoint - for as much sense as that phrase makes - as was the gentling of Logain. When the Aes Sedai post Dumai's Wells were stilled, however, it was a more offhand healing, and seemingly only introduced to indicate that the relationship between the healing of male and female channelers opposed to the healing between women that we had already been exposed to, while also solving any questions about Logain's Healing.

 

I believe that if Moiraine could be re-powered by being stilled and then Healed, the reduction of her power would not have been discussed to the extent that it was in the chapter. It might have been glossed over, or Moiraine's reduction in power may not have been revealed until the AMoL, where the issue would have likely been solved quickly - but then, what would have been the point of her being de-powered at all, aside form making a parallel with Cyndane? (Also, because they have made this parallel, I take it as further indirect evidence that the Foresaken was not, in fact, completely drained and then Healed by a woman, though I really don't care how she died. I just want her to die again - that's just me though).

 

Using similar logic, I feel that were Moiraine to be Healed somehow in the next book, her weakness would have been more emphasized, and perhaps the angrael would not have been present at all. This is mere speculation on my part, however. It could also easily be debated that her re-powering could be a major plot point in A Memory of Light, perhaps so she can help Rand control Callandor or perhaps not.

 

I haven't ruled out that Moiraine could be healed - though this doesn't seem likely to me at this point based on the presence of the powerful angrael. Call it an assumption if you will (that is exactly what it is after all) but it just doesn't seem as if its going to happen, much as the fangirl in me wants it to.

 

Finally, (though the above statement remains true - I really DON'T care how Lanfear died - and oh, look, I'm a woman... Imagine that...) we seem to have two options here:

 

1. The Finns were lying - she was alive and whoever the man was took her away, they gave Moiraine a false story hoping this would get an emotional reaction.

 

2. The Finns were not lying and they really did kill Lanfear by over-feeding (I do not however believe that this was resulted in a complete loss of power).

 

3. The Finns were not lying, but (depending on how they phrased what they said) could have been telling a distorted Aes Sedai-like version of the truth.

 

ex) "We drained her too quickly, and then she was no more"

 

translation: We took our fill, but then a man came and killed her. Then she died.

 

I was going to say that they could have said that she was no longer there, but Moiraine would be likely to catch that discrepancy being both Aes Sedai and Carhienin nobility. However, torture does things to you I suppose.

[Tiinker]

It didn't actually say that Lanfear died because the Finns drained so much of her power. It said that she died because they tried to drain her too quickly. The attack her connection to the True Source was under caused her to go to shock and die. She did not die because she lost too much of her potential, but because of her channel's reaction to the abuse. If they said that she died from it, I believe that is how she died. Whether this happened before or after the MAN came to look for her does not matter, since we do not know if the DO would have been able to reach her soul in the ToG.

 

It's conceivable that the *Finn panicked when Moridin showed up to free Lanfear, and tried to get as much channeller juice out of her as possible before releasing her to him. It does seem likely that the she could die from the shock of it. This would make sense because 1) if she were dead beforehand, why would Moridin bother to show up at all, 2) the *Finn are tricksy, but we haven't seen them outright lie, and 3) offering him Moiraine seems kinda stupid and clumsy, unless it was a simple delaying tactic.

 

-- dwn

 

It doesn't say it was Moridin though

[Beer Rot]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

Are people's memories REALLY this poor? Seriously??? The angreal in question, which Moraine is now using, is one which she took from Rhuidean. She laid it out on the wagon the night before she went through the gateway at the docks of Cairhein, and it was being used by Lanfear at the time, which is the reason she was able to so easily handle Rand during that fight (along with his unwillingness to actually kill a woman).

I'm pretty certain Moiraine actually stated that she got it was a result of one of her requests.

 

I recommend you examine your OWN memory and re-read the relevant chapters.

No, it is the one that Lanfear was using at the end of FoH to hurt Rand/Aviendha/Egwene. Moiraine was able to keep it as one of her requests. It's described in that chapter as well as a man bent backwards with his arms and legs tied together. And we know that no two angreals are similar (until the dream ones that Elayne makes that is). Moiraine even says that she hated it, which makes it even more curious as to why she would ask to keep it.

 

I'm willing to bet it was her keeping it that allowed her to survive as lunch for a year.

 

Lanfear didn't have it and died from the shock of being an OP snack.

 

My theory is, this is why Cyndane is only partially reduced, and Moiraine is at Suian level.

 

edit: as for asking for it, I'm thinking that had to do with her going to Rhuidean. The lives in which she had it, she might survive.. the ones she didn't have it, she died.

 

One thing I don't get, we saw in the Stone from Rand that you can channel in that world. I'd like to know how the women were captured and kept from channeling. Did the shock from Moiraine's attack knock them both unconscious?

[Sharaman]

Saidin was tainted when Rand channeled.

Ironically that may have protected him by making it poisonous to the Finn.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Time to throw another log on the fire -

 

1. Cyndane thinks about Alivia being stronger than she had been before she had been held by the Finns. Since we know from Graendal that Cyndane is not as strong as Lanfear was, something DID reduce her strength. Feel free to continue the food fight about what caused that.

 

2. Moiraine tells us what the Finns told her, but we do not know that the Finns told her the absolute truth.

 

3. So far as I know, Aes Sedai have no way to judge their own strength in One Power except in relation to another Aes Sedai. Moiraine has not yet met any other AS, so how does she "know" her innate strength has been reduced? How does she know that she doesn't even have enough strength now to be raised Accepted?

 

She's been under an immense strain. She's tired. She's thirsty. She's hungry. She's physically weak. Could she tell us exactly how much she could lift one-handed? Yet, she "knows" exactly how much One Power she can wield.

 

Seems awfully hand-wavy to me.

[Guest TonyThePrawn]

Mo: "Elayne is queen then?"

Mat: "Sure is. Her mother was killed by Rahvin"

Mo: "So you told me."

Mat: "I did? When?"

Mo: "A lifetime ago, Matrim", she replied, smiling.

 

When did Mat tell Moiraine the Rahvin had killed Morgase? Is this just something trivial that I missed in an earlier book?

[WhiskyJack]

Time to throw another log on the fire -

 

1. Cyndane thinks about Alivia being stronger than she had been before she had been held by the Finns. Since we know from Graendal that Cyndane is not as strong as Lanfear was, something DID reduce her strength. Feel free to continue the food fight about what caused that.

 

2. Moiraine tells us what the Finns told her, but we do not know that the Finns told her the absolute truth.

 

3. So far as I know, Aes Sedai have no way to judge their own strength in One Power except in relation to another Aes Sedai. Moiraine has not yet met any other AS, so how does she "know" her innate strength has been reduced? How does she know that she doesn't even have enough strength now to be raised Accepted?

 

She's been under an immense strain. She's tired. She's thirsty. She's hungry. She's physically weak. Could she tell us exactly how much she could lift one-handed? Yet, she "knows" exactly how much One Power she can wield.

 

Seems awfully hand-wavy to me.

 

 

I guess by doing the obvious, channeling..You know, try to do something and see if you are performing at same level as before. That's how Siuan discovered that something had gone wrong with the healing.

[WhiskyJack]

Mo: "Elayne is queen then?"

Mat: "Sure is. Her mother was killed by Rahvin"

Mo: "So you told me."

Mat: "I did? When?"

Mo: "A lifetime ago, Matrim", she replied, smiling.

 

When did Mat tell Moiraine the Rahvin had killed Morgase? Is this just something trivial that I missed in an earlier book?

 

Day before b**** fight at river dock in Cairhien. Thats what made Rand attack Camelyn.

[Deadsy]

When did Mat tell Moiraine the Rahvin had killed Morgase? Is this just something trivial that I missed in an earlier book?

 

It wasn't trivial. It's what made that conversation very funny to me. Mat doesn't remember what was probably the most significant thing he ever said to Moiraine (from her perspective). When Moiraine went through the rings in Rhuidean, every single time she saw her future, it was the news about Morgase that sent her through the doorway the next day.

[Haran]

Min thought that the only way for Rand to survive the last battle was with help of one woman. But that it was impossible since she was dead.

 

can't remember where I read this, but I instantly thought of Moiraine.

[dwn]

It didn't actually say that Lanfear died because the Finns drained so much of her power. It said that she died because they tried to drain her too quickly. The attack her connection to the True Source was under caused her to go to shock and die. She did not die because she lost too much of her potential, but because of her channel's reaction to the abuse. If they said that she died from it, I believe that is how she died. Whether this happened before or after the MAN came to look for her does not matter, since we do not know if the DO would have been able to reach her soul in the ToG.

 

It's conceivable that the *Finn panicked when Moridin showed up to free Lanfear, and tried to get as much channeller juice out of her as possible before releasing her to him. It does seem likely that the she could die from the shock of it. This would make sense because 1) if she were dead beforehand, why would Moridin bother to show up at all, 2) the *Finn are tricksy, but we haven't seen them outright lie, and 3) offering him Moiraine seems kinda stupid and clumsy, unless it was a simple delaying tactic.

 

-- dwn

 

It doesn't say it was Moridin though

 

Technically, no, but Moridin is certainly the most likely person to do so. If you must, replace 'Moridin' above with 'Moridin, one of his lackeys, or some random guy who was shopping for women'. I was going for brevity.

 

-- dwn

[Guest Arun]

Something just struck me... we know that Rand will fail without Moiraine, so what if the following were to occur?

 

1) Moiraine, being the legendary FS-slayer that she is, plus being all dead-and-alive again, might have enough pull with Egwene and the Sitters to convince them to help in Rand's plan to reseal the Bore. This might be one of the answers she received from the Aelfinn. With Moiraine's help Rand succeeds in the resealing, without her he will fail in this a la Min's viewing.

 

1b) This is where the 'tortured gymnast' angreal might come into play. If she not only confronted and killed Forsaken and returned from the dead, but on top of that is suddenly uber-powerful, wouldn't that add on top of her legendary status and make other Aes Sedai more likely to agree with what she has to say? Her reduced strength in the OP might lessen her rank in the WT.... but then again, I don't believe that it would have to be this specific angreal.

 

2) Besides Nynaeve she is the person Rand would trust the most in such an intimate bonding as the correct use of Callandor.

 

3) Seeing that Lanfear might plan a role in manipulating Rand in aMoL, maybe Moiraine reappearing snaps him out of any feelings for 'Mierin' and reminds him of all the evil she has done.

 

4) Add to this knowledge and requests from visiting with the Ael/Eelfinn, I bet she still has an ace or four up her sleeve.

 

 

So, these are my 2 cents on what I could imagine Moiraine's role to be.

 

 

ps - One more thing. We know that angreal aid channelers and prevent them from burning out due to overdrawing on the OP... what if it works vice versa, too, and saves channelers from dying when their conduit to the OP is being drained upon, such as happened to Moiraine and Lanfear.... Lanfear apparently has no angreal and gets killed due to a too quick draining, whereas Moiraine dies...

[Haran]

ps - One more thing. We know that angreal aid channelers and prevent them from burning out due to overdrawing on the OP... what if it works vice versa, too, and saves channelers from dying when their conduit to the OP is being drained upon, such as happened to Moiraine and Lanfear.... Lanfear apparently has no angreal and gets killed due to a too quick draining, whereas Moiraine dies...

 

The foxes seem to only care about two things; making things as unpleasant for everyone as possible and feeding while doing it.

 

If they thought that giving Moraine an angreal would somehow give her a sense of security they would have weaseled out of it somehow. Say by giving her a defunct one, a male one or something.

But if the angreal doesn’t make her safe from this, but instead only increases her suffering, they would have made sure to give her as powerful one as possible.

 

Only my opinion. I have faith in the fact that the foxes are complete bastards and that they seem to know almost everything.

[f3llyn]

Time to throw another log on the fire -

 

1. Cyndane thinks about Alivia being stronger than she had been before she had been held by the Finns. Since we know from Graendal that Cyndane is not as strong as Lanfear was, something DID reduce her strength. Feel free to continue the food fight about what caused that.

 

2. Moiraine tells us what the Finns told her, but we do not know that the Finns told her the absolute truth.

 

3. So far as I know, Aes Sedai have no way to judge their own strength in One Power except in relation to another Aes Sedai. Moiraine has not yet met any other AS, so how does she "know" her innate strength has been reduced? How does she know that she doesn't even have enough strength now to be raised Accepted?

 

She's been under an immense strain. She's tired. She's thirsty. She's hungry. She's physically weak. Could she tell us exactly how much she could lift one-handed? Yet, she "knows" exactly how much One Power she can wield.

 

Seems awfully hand-wavy to me.

As for #1.. Alivia is supposed to be stronger than Nynaeve, but when she fought off Cyndane she was wearing all the angreals and what's it that Nynaeve currently has, too. Remember Nynaeve was made to give them up because she would be using the access keys with Rand?

[Deadsy]

Something just struck me... we know that Rand will fail without Moiraine, so what if the following were to occur?

 

1) Moiraine, being the legendary FS-slayer that she is, plus being all dead-and-alive again, might have enough pull with Egwene and the Sitters to convince them to help in Rand's plan to reseal the Bore. This might be one of the answers she received from the Aelfinn. With Moiraine's help Rand succeeds in the resealing, without her he will fail in this a la Min's viewing.

 

Yes, I agree that this is part of it. I believe Egwene respects Moiraine a lot more than she respects Nynaeve, so she'll listen Moiraine's opinions more carefully. There is nobody else with Rand who has any chance at this. Moiraine is kind of the go-between (but we know she'll support Rand no matter what).

 

and I agree completely about callandor too. Since the moment Min started talking about it in TGS I've felt that it would be Nynaeve and Moiraine. Then when Rand mentions he wants Nynaeve to help him, and he needs one more he can trust... it just made it even more obvious that it would be Moiraine.