The Luckers Official Review.

[Fel]

Why? Because she doesn't have the energy to fight Birgitte and everybody else for what needs doing and then do those things yet too. She's being smothered by all the caretakers and guards. She could trip and fall at any time and in any location. Bad luck can strike at any time. Once you've fallen, having somebody handy to pick you up does nothing to mitigate the damage you've suffered in the fall.

 

She did take simple precautions. The prisoners were in guarded cells. The BA were shielded. There was nothing more she could do and have that disguise work.

 

Better to ask why she didn't have them all executed long since. That she is culpable for, but getting caught-up in their jailbreak was simply bad luck that could have happened to anyone.

Here are a few simple things she could have (and should have) done that would have gotten us all off her case:

• 
   
  
• Let the guards outside the cells know that she will be in there. Heck the channelers might have attacked HER since they felt this incredible presence in the cell. Also, if she did get hurt and called for help, the guards are likely to just ignore it since they have no idea their monarch is in there. Just a 2 minute trip over to them to say "hey, i'm going in to interrogate. keep quiet and alert. if you hear me scream, come running..."
  
• Have someone else make the gateway and hold it so that, if you get knocked on the head, or trip and fall in the dark and lose the power, or meet the Mydraal coming for his nightly milk and cookies visit with the BA, or any of a NUMBER of idiotic things that can happen easily in that environment, then SOMEONE can still get you out.
  
• Bring your warder. That's why you have one. Most monarchs visiting a jailed person (or even someone visiting a prisoner in today's world) brings a guard as a backup. The argument that they are too overprotective is laughable - they are working their tails off to keep her alive with these ridiculous jaunts.
  

 

Each of these is a VERY simple thing to do that would gain a very large safety measure and are not hard to think of. The continuing defense of a stupid useless risk (one in a LONG line of stupid useless risks) is hard to understand.

 

I won't get into the rest of my elayne rant since there is a whole thread to exhaust myself on that one...

[mbuehner]

One other small point regarding Elayne's personal experience with prisons-

1. She plots and executes Egwene's escape from a Seanchan prison

2. She had her head cracked up and managed to escape imprisonment on the way to Tear.

3. She escaped herself from a prison in Tear, snatching up a BA guard in the process.

4. She saw her BA prisoners throats cut in an impenetrable cell and no guards saw or heard anything.

5. She helps break the Panarch out of prison.

6. Another BA prisoner is murdered in her care.

7. She is transferring Elenia and Naean as prisoners, and they escape.

8. She is captured by the BA and escapes.

And of course she goes down to visit her BA prisoners and is nearly killed... during their escape.

 

The way I see it nobody ever stays locked up in this series, and Elayne actually alway seems to see the consequences first hand. Should it really surprise her that a prison can be an unpredictable and dangerous place at this point?

[Sabio]

I agree completely. She had to knew it would be sort of dangerous since she knew Brigette would of disagreed with her plan. At first she wanted brigette with her but then thought it was probably for the best she wasn't there. Amazing how many times the main female characters have been captured or nearly captued in the book.

 

 

I have noticed the good people don't seem to execute the bad folks very often, Egwene killing the BA in TGS is one of the few times the good folks actually killed someone they captured. Everyone else seems to be keep the prisoner to be "questioned" and almost everyone escapes or was killed in custody.

[AutomatedTeller]

 

• Slayer – Die now. Die please. Just die. Thank you.

 

 

I have to say, I want Slayer to die, too - but he is an awesome freaking character. He's kind of what I was hoping the Forsaken would be - unkillable, easy to hate, effective.

 

One thing, though - does anyone know WHY Gitara sent Luc to the waste and why it's so important? I don't think we've seen that, and I'm pretty sure that "becoming super-assassin" wasn't the reason. Was it just to provide a foil for Perrin?

 

Maybe he's the one who comes back to the light or something.

[Mr Ares]

It was dumb. She's a monarch, an AS, and a lover of the DR carrying his babies. What if she tripped on a step and fell against the cell?

Well, what if she did? A few bumps and bruises?

 

Look- this, like all Elayne idiocy, isn't a question of should she have taken the risk. The risk is fine. The question is why didn't she take SIMPLE PRECAUTIONS with the resources easily in hand.

Like, having guards outside? She did take precautions. The point is, there was no risk. Why bother doing something that will not make you any safer than you already are?

 

Why? Because she doesn't have the energy to fight Birgitte and everybody else for what needs doing and then do those things yet too. She's being smothered by all the caretakers and guards.

 

She's a queen, and an AS. If she can't carry out her will with her attendants what business does she have mucking around with the BA? Can you see Rand being pushed around by a midwife? Or Nynaeve? Or even Egwene? She gets off on submitting herself to them and then sneaking off.

 

She could trip and fall at any time and in any location. Bad luck can strike at any time. Once you've fallen, having somebody handy to pick you up does nothing to mitigate the damage you've suffered in the fall.

You don't want to trip and fall where somebody will throttle you to death, as a general rule. Or even just laugh as you bleed to death. In such a case its the mitigation of damage that matters.

Except she can't be throttled to death, nor can she bleed to death. Neither is a risk.

 

She did take simple precautions. The prisoners were in guarded cells. The BA were shielded. There was nothing more she could do and have that disguise work.

That's absurdly shortsighted. She could have ordered her warder to wait outside the door. She could have had a squad of the queens guard on hand. She could have used any of the channelers in the palace as backup, using the power to hide in the same room. Note, NONE of this would require anything but a couple of messengers to fetch some people and a little bit of backbone.

None of it was necessary. She took precautions. There was no serious risk. Expecting her to do more would be ridiculous.

 

Does that make her immediate assumption that Rand is wrong alright? No. It was still an assumption, made without any true understanding of his specific reasons, and with no consideration that he might HAVE specific reasons. But then on the reverse is that Rand made no attempt to convey his reasons to her to begin with. And she does have the wisdom to change her mind, we've seen this. Ultimately, I'd even go so far as to say that based on what she knows that she is right to prepare to stop it, but wrong in not considering the possibility of not stopping it. I think she can get past that.

Which was Rand's plan, he knew how she would react and what she will do. My problem is Egwene is she opposes Rand, but really has no plan of her own.

As far as we know, Rand's plan is: 1)release Shai'tan, 2)wing it. I'd say that a little opposition is entirely warranted.

OMFG, I agree!

First I find myself in agreement with Bob, now you. All right, I'm worried now.

 

Here are a few simple things she could have (and should have) done that would have gotten us all off her case:

I'm not convinced they would. Given that there was no serious, likely risk to her, then there was nothing for her to take further precautions against, yet people insist sahe should do more and more to keep safe. It's absurd. There is no convincing argumernt for her actions here being foolish. Sure, she could do those things you suggest, but why bother? How would it improve her situation? If the guards here screaming, surely they would investigate? If Elayne was attacked, just drop the disguise. She can get out through the door, if something should go wrong, and someone else could always make a Gateway if hers vanished. As the guard would have to wait outside, where there are already guards, Birgitte would have made no difference.

 

Each of these is a VERY simple thing to do that would gain a very large safety measure and are not hard to think of.

Simple, yes, but the gains to her saftey are utterly negligible. So why bother going to the extra effort for zero gain?

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Does that make her immediate assumption that Rand is wrong alright? No. It was still an assumption, made without any true understanding of his specific reasons, and with no consideration that he might HAVE specific reasons. But then on the reverse is that Rand made no attempt to convey his reasons to her to begin with. And she does have the wisdom to change her mind, we've seen this. Ultimately, I'd even go so far as to say that based on what she knows that she is right to prepare to stop it, but wrong in not considering the possibility of not stopping it. I think she can get past that.

Which was Rand's plan, he knew how she would react and what she will do. My problem is Egwene is she opposes Rand, but really has no plan of her own.

As far as we know, Rand's plan is: 1)release Shai'tan, 2)wing it. I'd say that a little opposition is entirely warranted.

OMFG, I agree!

First I find myself in agreement with Bob, now you. All right, I'm worried now.

 

 

 

SEE! I tolja it was time to break out the good stuff and drink it before we all go poof.

[Terez]

Does that make her immediate assumption that Rand is wrong alright? No. It was still an assumption, made without any true understanding of his specific reasons, and with no consideration that he might HAVE specific reasons. But then on the reverse is that Rand made no attempt to convey his reasons to her to begin with. And she does have the wisdom to change her mind, we've seen this. Ultimately, I'd even go so far as to say that based on what she knows that she is right to prepare to stop it, but wrong in not considering the possibility of not stopping it. I think she can get past that.

Which was Rand's plan, he knew how she would react and what she will do. My problem is Egwene is she opposes Rand, but really has no plan of her own.

As far as we know, Rand's plan is: 1)release Shai'tan, 2)wing it. I'd say that a little opposition is entirely warranted.

OMFG, I agree!

First I find myself in agreement with Bob, now you. All right, I'm worried now.

I know right? If it makes you feel any better, I wrote a little dissertation on some reasons why she might be right about the seals, and you could probably find a thing or two to disagree with in there. You seem mainly focused here on Egwene's right to question him in the first place, which is an argument I've been having elsewhere. I'm getting a little tired of the people who insist that Egwene should have at least tried to figure out why Rand was going to break the seals, or something. And then I point out that she did in fact try to get him to talk about it, and he blew her off and told her they'd talk about it in a month, and we know by his thoughts that he has no intention of even listening to her objections. After I point that out, people usually disappear and/or ignore me and keep arguing. I've even seen a few of them making the very same arguments a day or two later, as if their eyes just kind of glossed over my post altogether.

[capuga]

Does that make her immediate assumption that Rand is wrong alright? No. It was still an assumption, made without any true understanding of his specific reasons, and with no consideration that he might HAVE specific reasons. But then on the reverse is that Rand made no attempt to convey his reasons to her to begin with. And she does have the wisdom to change her mind, we've seen this. Ultimately, I'd even go so far as to say that based on what she knows that she is right to prepare to stop it, but wrong in not considering the possibility of not stopping it. I think she can get past that.

Which was Rand's plan, he knew how she would react and what she will do. My problem is Egwene is she opposes Rand, but really has no plan of her own.

As far as we know, Rand's plan is: 1)release Shai'tan, 2)wing it. I'd say that a little opposition is entirely warranted.

OMFG, I agree!

First I find myself in agreement with Bob, now you. All right, I'm worried now.

I know right? If it makes you feel any better, I wrote a little dissertation on some reasons why she might be right about the seals, and you could probably find a thing or two to disagree with in there. You seem mainly focused here on Egwene's right to question him in the first place, which is an argument I've been having elsewhere. I'm getting a little tired of the people who insist that Egwene should have at least tried to figure out why Rand was going to break the seals, or something. And then I point out that she did in fact try to get him to talk about it, and he blew her off and told her they'd talk about it in a month, and we know by his thoughts that he has no intention of even listening to her objections. After I point that out, people usually disappear and/or ignore me and keep arguing. I've even seen a few of them making the very same arguments a day or two later, as if their eyes just kind of glossed over my post altogether.

 

I never had a problem her initial reaction, particularly after Rand refused to elaborate. But it would have been nice to have seen some kind of thought process during one of her POVs where she considers some of the following things: Rand, as the prophesied savior and Dark One fighter, might have some knowledge she does not. Perhaps as the prophesied savior, the Pattern was guiding Rand's actions. Rand has a large collection of Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, etc. around him that have maybe discussed this with him and advised him. One of my most trusted friends that I respect (Nynaeve) who has actually spent time with Rand recently has argued in Rand's favor, maybe I should consider this instead of just dismissing it as ta'veren effect.

 

Of course Egwene had the right (I would go so far as to say an obligation) to question Rand's plan. I just would have liked to have seen a thought or two from her that at least considered the possibility that Rand knew what he was doing. I also think that gathering a huge army and risking a battle between the forces of the Light on the eve of Tarman Gaidon is not the best response to her doubts. Perhaps just gathering the various rulers and leaders to confront Rand would be more sensible than risking a disasterous fight between whole armies.

[nolirion]

Does that make her immediate assumption that Rand is wrong alright? No. It was still an assumption, made without any true understanding of his specific reasons, and with no consideration that he might HAVE specific reasons. But then on the reverse is that Rand made no attempt to convey his reasons to her to begin with. And she does have the wisdom to change her mind, we've seen this. Ultimately, I'd even go so far as to say that based on what she knows that she is right to prepare to stop it, but wrong in not considering the possibility of not stopping it. I think she can get past that.

Which was Rand's plan, he knew how she would react and what she will do. My problem is Egwene is she opposes Rand, but really has no plan of her own.

As far as we know, Rand's plan is: 1)release Shai'tan, 2)wing it. I'd say that a little opposition is entirely warranted.

OMFG, I agree!

First I find myself in agreement with Bob, now you. All right, I'm worried now.

I know right? If it makes you feel any better, I wrote a little dissertation on some reasons why she might be right about the seals, and you could probably find a thing or two to disagree with in there. You seem mainly focused here on Egwene's right to question him in the first place, which is an argument I've been having elsewhere. I'm getting a little tired of the people who insist that Egwene should have at least tried to figure out why Rand was going to break the seals, or something. And then I point out that she did in fact try to get him to talk about it, and he blew her off and told her they'd talk about it in a month, and we know by his thoughts that he has no intention of even listening to her objections. After I point that out, people usually disappear and/or ignore me and keep arguing. I've even seen a few of them making the very same arguments a day or two later, as if their eyes just kind of glossed over my post altogether.

 

I never had a problem her initial reaction, particularly after Rand refused to elaborate. But it would have been nice to have seen some kind of thought process during one of her POVs where she considers some of the following things: Rand, as the prophesied savior and Dark One fighter, might have some knowledge she does not. Perhaps as the prophesied savior, the Pattern was guiding Rand's actions. Rand has a large collection of Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, etc. around him that have maybe discussed this with him and advised him. One of my most trusted friends that I respect (Nynaeve) who has actually spent time with Rand recently has argued in Rand's favor, maybe I should consider this instead of just dismissing it as ta'veren effect.

 

Of course Egwene had the right (I would go so far as to say an obligation) to question Rand's plan. I just would have liked to have seen a thought or two from her that at least considered the possibility that Rand knew what he was doing. I also think that gathering a huge army and risking a battle between the forces of the Light on the eve of Tarman Gaidon is not the best response to her doubts. Perhaps just gathering the various rulers and leaders to confront Rand would be more sensible than risking a disasterous fight between whole armies.

No to say she is the watcher of the seal ; that her job to keep them safe . Even if we know WT lost them during the trolloc war and Rand gather them and protect them .

[capuga]

Does that make her immediate assumption that Rand is wrong alright? No. It was still an assumption, made without any true understanding of his specific reasons, and with no consideration that he might HAVE specific reasons. But then on the reverse is that Rand made no attempt to convey his reasons to her to begin with. And she does have the wisdom to change her mind, we've seen this. Ultimately, I'd even go so far as to say that based on what she knows that she is right to prepare to stop it, but wrong in not considering the possibility of not stopping it. I think she can get past that.

Which was Rand's plan, he knew how she would react and what she will do. My problem is Egwene is she opposes Rand, but really has no plan of her own.

As far as we know, Rand's plan is: 1)release Shai'tan, 2)wing it. I'd say that a little opposition is entirely warranted.

OMFG, I agree!

First I find myself in agreement with Bob, now you. All right, I'm worried now.

I know right? If it makes you feel any better, I wrote a little dissertation on some reasons why she might be right about the seals, and you could probably find a thing or two to disagree with in there. You seem mainly focused here on Egwene's right to question him in the first place, which is an argument I've been having elsewhere. I'm getting a little tired of the people who insist that Egwene should have at least tried to figure out why Rand was going to break the seals, or something. And then I point out that she did in fact try to get him to talk about it, and he blew her off and told her they'd talk about it in a month, and we know by his thoughts that he has no intention of even listening to her objections. After I point that out, people usually disappear and/or ignore me and keep arguing. I've even seen a few of them making the very same arguments a day or two later, as if their eyes just kind of glossed over my post altogether.

 

I never had a problem her initial reaction, particularly after Rand refused to elaborate. But it would have been nice to have seen some kind of thought process during one of her POVs where she considers some of the following things: Rand, as the prophesied savior and Dark One fighter, might have some knowledge she does not. Perhaps as the prophesied savior, the Pattern was guiding Rand's actions. Rand has a large collection of Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, etc. around him that have maybe discussed this with him and advised him. One of my most trusted friends that I respect (Nynaeve) who has actually spent time with Rand recently has argued in Rand's favor, maybe I should consider this instead of just dismissing it as ta'veren effect.

 

Of course Egwene had the right (I would go so far as to say an obligation) to question Rand's plan. I just would have liked to have seen a thought or two from her that at least considered the possibility that Rand knew what he was doing. I also think that gathering a huge army and risking a battle between the forces of the Light on the eve of Tarman Gaidon is not the best response to her doubts. Perhaps just gathering the various rulers and leaders to confront Rand would be more sensible than risking a disasterous fight between whole armies.

No to say she is the watcher of the seal ; that her job to keep them safe . Even if we know WT lost them during the trolloc war and Rand gather them and protect them .

 

No her job should be to help the Light win this war however is necessary, not blindly follow an honorary (and ridiculous) title. My argument was simply that I thought she should have had a more complete and well rounded thought process throughout the book.

[mbuehner]

Given that there was no serious, likely risk to her, then there was nothing for her to take further precautions against, yet people insist sahe should do more and more to keep safe. It's absurd. There is no convincing argumernt for her actions here being foolish.

 

Strange that given there was no risk, what happened in that prison happened.

 

Birgette made the point- Min's vision saw healthy babies, not a healthy mother. It was sheer luck that Elayne wasn't beaten into a coma or had her frontal cortex melted into goo, and have a shell of a mother deliver the babies. There was a demonstrable risk, and Elayne should have known it, particularly given her history with jail break shenanigans i listed above. If nothing else she should have remembered the two BA prisoners inexplicably murdered in their cell (the ones Slayer killed).

[Bob T Dwarf]

Given that there was no serious, likely risk to her, then there was nothing for her to take further precautions against, yet people insist sahe should do more and more to keep safe. It's absurd. There is no convincing argumernt for her actions here being foolish.

 

Strange that given there was no risk, what happened in that prison happened.

 

Birgette made the point- Min's vision saw healthy babies, not a healthy mother. It was sheer luck that Elayne wasn't beaten into a coma or had her frontal cortex melted into goo, and have a shell of a mother deliver the babies. There was a demonstrable risk, and Elayne should have known it, particularly given her history with jail break shenanigans i listed above. If nothing else she should have remembered the two BA prisoners inexplicably murdered in their cell (the ones Slayer killed).

 

So you'd have her do what? Cower in a corner? Hide under the bed?

 

Oh, yeah, that's right, you want her to get permission form Birgitte before she does anything. Remind me, who is the Queen of Andor, Elayne or Birgitte?

[mbuehner]

Given that there was no serious, likely risk to her, then there was nothing for her to take further precautions against, yet people insist sahe should do more and more to keep safe. It's absurd. There is no convincing argumernt for her actions here being foolish.

 

Strange that given there was no risk, what happened in that prison happened.

 

Birgette made the point- Min's vision saw healthy babies, not a healthy mother. It was sheer luck that Elayne wasn't beaten into a coma or had her frontal cortex melted into goo, and have a shell of a mother deliver the babies. There was a demonstrable risk, and Elayne should have known it, particularly given her history with jail break shenanigans i listed above. If nothing else she should have remembered the two BA prisoners inexplicably murdered in their cell (the ones Slayer killed).

 

So you'd have her do what? Cower in a corner? Hide under the bed?

 

Oh, yeah, that's right, you want her to get permission form Birgitte before she does anything. Remind me, who is the Queen of Andor, Elayne or Birgitte?

 

If she were acting like a queen, why would she have to sneak behind Birgitte's back instead of informing her of what she was going to do and Birgittes role in her plan? Can you see Moraine sneaking around because she was afraid Lan would stop her from doing something? Me either.

 

What would I have her do? I believe i've already given a number of options. Lets not forget the jail break happened in HER prison as well... so the fact that it happened at all also falls on her lack of taking BA prisoners seriously enough... especially given her history with them.

 

Would you have allowed your child to go into that cell block? Its perfectly safe right? Of course not, because in fact its fundamentally unsafe, so if you decide to go you take every precaution... particularly when those precautions are just lazing around otherwise.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Given that there was no serious, likely risk to her, then there was nothing for her to take further precautions against, yet people insist sahe should do more and more to keep safe. It's absurd. There is no convincing argumernt for her actions here being foolish.

 

Strange that given there was no risk, what happened in that prison happened.

 

Birgette made the point- Min's vision saw healthy babies, not a healthy mother. It was sheer luck that Elayne wasn't beaten into a coma or had her frontal cortex melted into goo, and have a shell of a mother deliver the babies. There was a demonstrable risk, and Elayne should have known it, particularly given her history with jail break shenanigans i listed above. If nothing else she should have remembered the two BA prisoners inexplicably murdered in their cell (the ones Slayer killed).

 

So you'd have her do what? Cower in a corner? Hide under the bed?

 

Oh, yeah, that's right, you want her to get permission form Birgitte before she does anything. Remind me, who is the Queen of Andor, Elayne or Birgitte?

 

If she were acting like a queen, why would she have to sneak behind Birgitte's back instead of informing her of what she was going to do and Birgittes role in her plan? Can you see Moraine sneaking around because she was afraid Lan would stop her from doing something? Me either.

 

What would I have her do? I believe i've already given a number of options. Lets not forget the jail break happened in HER prison as well... so the fact that it happened at all also falls on her lack of taking BA prisoners seriously enough... especially given her history with them.

 

Would you have allowed your child to go into that cell block? Its perfectly safe right? Of course not, because in fact its fundamentally unsafe, so if you decide to go you take every precaution... particularly when those precautions are just lazing around otherwise.

 

Probably because the plan required that Birgitte play no part. That would lead to another fight over what it was OK for Elayne to be doing. etc. etc.

 

Elayne took no foolish risks.

[mbuehner]

Given that there was no serious, likely risk to her, then there was nothing for her to take further precautions against, yet people insist sahe should do more and more to keep safe. It's absurd. There is no convincing argumernt for her actions here being foolish.

 

Strange that given there was no risk, what happened in that prison happened.

 

Birgette made the point- Min's vision saw healthy babies, not a healthy mother. It was sheer luck that Elayne wasn't beaten into a coma or had her frontal cortex melted into goo, and have a shell of a mother deliver the babies. There was a demonstrable risk, and Elayne should have known it, particularly given her history with jail break shenanigans i listed above. If nothing else she should have remembered the two BA prisoners inexplicably murdered in their cell (the ones Slayer killed).

 

So you'd have her do what? Cower in a corner? Hide under the bed?

 

Oh, yeah, that's right, you want her to get permission form Birgitte before she does anything. Remind me, who is the Queen of Andor, Elayne or Birgitte?

 

If she were acting like a queen, why would she have to sneak behind Birgitte's back instead of informing her of what she was going to do and Birgittes role in her plan? Can you see Moraine sneaking around because she was afraid Lan would stop her from doing something? Me either.

 

What would I have her do? I believe i've already given a number of options. Lets not forget the jail break happened in HER prison as well... so the fact that it happened at all also falls on her lack of taking BA prisoners seriously enough... especially given her history with them.

 

Would you have allowed your child to go into that cell block? Its perfectly safe right? Of course not, because in fact its fundamentally unsafe, so if you decide to go you take every precaution... particularly when those precautions are just lazing around otherwise.

 

Probably because the plan required that Birgitte play no part. That would lead to another fight over what it was OK for Elayne to be doing. etc. etc.

 

Elayne took no foolish risks.

 

We're arguing over whether 'the plan' (and i use that term in its loosest sense) was reckless, which it was. Demonstrably having Birgitte within running distance would have been safer... that's the point of a warder. The fact that it would cause a fight is Elayne's own lack of leadership... and the reason Birgitte has reason to be concerned is because Elayne HAS on many occasions demonstrated herself to be reckless!

 

You can keep saying Elayne took no foolish risks but that doesn't make it true. Have not Black Ajah prisoners in her custody been killed mysteriously on two separate occasions? Doesn't that fundamentally prove that being around them isn't definitively safe?

[Bob T Dwarf]

We're arguing over whether 'the plan' (and i use that term in its loosest sense) was reckless, which it was. Demonstrably having Birgitte within running distance would have been safer... that's the point of a warder. The fact that it would cause a fight is Elayne's own lack of leadership... and the reason Birgitte has reason to be concerned is because Elayne HAS on many occasions demonstrated herself to be reckless!

 

You can keep saying Elayne took no foolish risks but that doesn't make it true. Have not Black Ajah prisoners in her custody been killed mysteriously on two separate occasions? Doesn't that fundamentally prove that being around them isn't definitively safe?

 

No her needing to constantly overcome Birgitte's objections to nearly everything she wants to do is because she is pregnant, not because she's a poor leader.

 

The world is ending. There is nothing Elayne can do to keep herself and those babies safe other than the things she is doing, almost always in spite of the objections of Birgitte and everyone else around her.

 

There is no longer any such thing as safe behaviour for her. Period. Or rather, BIG EXCLAMATION POINT !

[mbuehner]

We're arguing over whether 'the plan' (and i use that term in its loosest sense) was reckless, which it was. Demonstrably having Birgitte within running distance would have been safer... that's the point of a warder. The fact that it would cause a fight is Elayne's own lack of leadership... and the reason Birgitte has reason to be concerned is because Elayne HAS on many occasions demonstrated herself to be reckless!

 

You can keep saying Elayne took no foolish risks but that doesn't make it true. Have not Black Ajah prisoners in her custody been killed mysteriously on two separate occasions? Doesn't that fundamentally prove that being around them isn't definitively safe?

 

No her needing to constantly overcome Birgitte's objections to nearly everything she wants to do is because she is pregnant, not because she's a poor leader.

 

The world is ending. There is nothing Elayne can do to keep herself and those babies safe other than the things she is doing, almost always in spite of the objections of Birgitte and everyone else around her.

 

There is no longer any such thing as safe behaviour for her. Period. Or rather, BIG EXCLAMATION POINT !

 

By your logic anything she does up to and including jumping off the top of the white tower just for the fun of it is not reckless.

 

In reality, the proximity of TG makes everyone's actions MORE subject to scrutiny as to risks versus rewards than ever. Again- your changing the subject. Elayne being much more careful in guarding her prisoners, and especially in her safety while visiting them doesn't mean she can't go visit them. The point is she COULD have employed many more precautions with very little extra effort (aside from cowboying up and showing her warder who's Aes Sedai). No-one is questioning whether she should have gone down there. We are questioning whether she should have gone down on a whim, with no planning, and not nearly as much backup as could have been easily employed with the resources waiting at hand, doing absolutely nothing else.

 

It would be like Matt picking up a spatula to fight a trolloc when his weapon is just as close at hand- Hey, you got to take risks right? Well, you gotta take risks that render you rewards, not just risks for their own sake.

 

Taking extra risks without consement rewards is even more egregious given whats at risk.

[Cut Strand]

I suppose what I'm worried about is something of a Richard Rahl syndrome--with never a wrong answer, and all the other characters sitting around him gazing at him with the appropriate degree of awe after having opposed him with flimsy arguments that he's easily torn apart.

I am disturbed by the number of people on the forums who seem so convinced that he is now perfect and can't make a mistake, and knows everything, and will never be troubled by the Shadow again. I mean...come on!

Unfortunately, Rand is the only one alive on the Lightside Roster that has taken any real theory classes on the One Power (although the Wise Ones do seem to experiment a little bit with the One Power). So there isn't anyone else to come up with a way to seal the Dark One up again.

 

The White Tower of today is basically a technical school that teaches known weaves and how to be a used car salesman. All practical, no theory. So there is little innovation (actually there was no innovation until a bunch of girls that didn't study there started playing with the One Power).

 

And those girls haven't spent any time trying to figure out how to reseal the Bore.

 

So here is a summary of the choices:

1. Rand's Plan: Clear the existing seals and start over. And do so on the good guys' time table.

2. Egwene's Plan: La la la la la la la la la la! I can't hear you! Fight the Last Battle on the Dark One's schedule (after he continues to soften the good guys with more bubbles of evil).

 

I don't think Rand is going to show up and say, "Sup folks! Let's all travel to the Bore and get crack-a-lacking!" He is going to allow people to get ready (pack their stuff, get into lines, etc).

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

By your logic anything she does up to and including jumping off the top of the white tower just for the fun of it is not reckless.

 

In reality, the proximity of TG makes everyone's actions MORE subject to scrutiny as to risks versus rewards than ever. Again- your changing the subject. Elayne being much more careful in guarding her prisoners, and especially in her safety while visiting them doesn't mean she can't go visit them. The point is she COULD have employed many more precautions with very little extra effort (aside from cowboying up and showing her warder who's Aes Sedai). No-one is questioning whether she should have gone down there. We are questioning whether she should have gone down on a whim, with no planning, and not nearly as much backup as could have been easily employed with the resources waiting at hand, doing absolutely nothing else.

 

It would be like Matt picking up a spatula to fight a trolloc when his weapon is just as close at hand- Hey, you got to take risks right? Well, you gotta take risks that render you rewards, not just risks for their own sake.

 

Taking extra risks without consement rewards is even more egregious given whats at risk.

 

First she's not doing anything for fun. She's doing what she honestly believes needs doing.

 

As to the rest of it way long ago in the olden times an Amyrlin seat visited Fal Dara with attendant Aes Sedai, their Warders, Tower Guards, and her own considerable resources. She was also surrounded by every Sheinaran soldier currently in the citadel. After conducting her business, with all of that might assembled, as she was getting ready to leave, someone attempted to assassinate a young man not far away from where she was walking.

Suddenly, something flashed across in front of Rand's face. A man passing behind the Amyrlin cried out and fell, a black-fletched arrow jutting from his side. The Amyrlin stood calmly looking at a rent in her sleeve; blood slowly stained the gray silk.

 

A woman screamed, and abruptly the courtyard rang with cries and shouts. The people on the walls milled furiously and every man in the courtyard had his sword out. Even Rand, he was surprised to realize.

 

Agelmar shook his blade at the sky. "Find him!" he roared. "Bring him to me!" His face went from red to white when he saw the blood on the Amyrlin's sleeve. He fell to his knees, head bowed. "Forgive, Mother. I have failed your safety. I am ashamed."

 

"Nonsense, Agelmar," the Amyrlin said. "Leane, stop fussing over me and see to that man. I've cut myself worse than this more than once cleaning fish, and he needs help. No, Agelmar, stand up. Stand up, Lord of Fal Dara. You have not failed me, and you have no reason for shame. Last year in the White Tower, with my own guards at every gate and Warders all around me, a man with a knife came within five steps of me. A Whitecloak, no doubt, though I've no proof. Please stand up or I will be shamed." As agelmar slowly rose, she fingered her sliced sleeve. "A poor shot for a Whitecloak bowman, or even a Darkfriend." Her eyes flickered up to touch Rand's. "If it was at me he aimed." Her gaze was gone before he could read anything on her face, but he suddenly wanted to dismount and hide.

 

It wasn't aimed at her, and she knows it.

 

Here we have evidence of two nearly fatal episodes suffered by the Amyrlin Seat while surrounded by her own guards, Warders, and many of the finest soldiers in the Borderlands. Was she at fault for not taking enough precautions on both occasions? Was Agelmar at fault for not guarding her more closely? Was it Siuan's heedless rashness that killed that man?

 

Or was it just a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Much like a young lady in Caemlyn.

 

Elayne took all the prudent precautions she could, just as everyone involved in the two incidents with Siuan did.

 

As the bumper sticker says, Stuff happens. You deal with it and move on.

[Sabio]

No one is saying she can always be safe, my complaint is her faulty logic of "Min said my babies will be born ok, I can take some risks." Plus a monarch who takes too many risks tends to have a short reign and short life. Egwene's and Elyane's main fault is they always seem to think they have to do everything themselves.

 

And secondly Elyane takes all these risks never with Brigette to help her, never seeming to care the effects her actions my have on Rand or Brigette. People probably wouldn't be so hard on Elyane if she would take some of these risks with her warder watching her back, which if I rememebr right is the main purpose of a warder.

[Mr Ares]

Given that there was no serious, likely risk to her, then there was nothing for her to take further precautions against, yet people insist she should do more and more to keep safe. It's absurd. There is no convincing argumernt for her actions here being foolish.

Strange that given there was no risk, what happened in that prison happened.

I used the word likely in that post for a reason.

 

There was a demonstrable risk, and Elayne should have known it, particularly given her history with jail break shenanigans i listed above. If nothing else she should have remembered the two BA prisoners inexplicably murdered in their cell (the ones Slayer killed).

Experience with jailbreaks. Right. What we have is prisoners being held for an extended period suddenly dying. Elayne was in the same room as the prisoner for a very short time. The chance of a jailbreak or assassination might be quite high, but the chance of it happening at that very moment, the very short space of time she was there as well, is very unlikely. There were 19 days between the capture at the end of TDR and the death at the start of TSR. Moghedien was a captive for about 104 days. Ispan was a captive for around 28 days. I don't know how long it was before the jailbreak in question, but if we look at the timing, we can see that the jailbreak would involve only a brief spell inside the cell, and Elayne's interrogation would also take a brief time. The idea that in weeks of captivity, those two very brief occurences would be occuring at the same moment is quite unlikely. So there is no reason to take extra precautions against it happening then.

 

Would you have allowed your child to go into that cell block?

Of course.

 

We are questioning whether she should have gone down on a whim, with no planning, and not nearly as much backup as could have been easily employed with the resources waiting at hand, doing absolutely nothing else.

We are questioning whether there was any point in bringing along that extra backup. So far as she had any reason to believe, she was not in any serious danger. That that turned out not to be the case was something she could not have reasonably foreseen, therefore her taking precautions against it is unreasonable.

 

It would be like Matt picking up a spatula to fight a trolloc when his weapon is just as close at hand- Hey, you got to take risks right?

It differs from your Mat scenario in some important respects - the absence of a clear and present threat (such as a Trolloc), it would take extra effort to protect against nothing to take extra precautions (in your scenario, there is a clear advantage to taking the extra effort to get the weapon).

Well, you gotta take risks that render you rewards, not just risks for their own sake.

What risk?

 

I suppose what I'm worried about is something of a Richard Rahl syndrome--with never a wrong answer, and all the other characters sitting around him gazing at him with the appropriate degree of awe after having opposed him with flimsy arguments that he's easily torn apart.

I am disturbed by the number of people on the forums who seem so convinced that he is now perfect and can't make a mistake, and knows everything, and will never be troubled by the Shadow again. I mean...come on!

Unfortunately, Rand is the only one alive on the Lightside Roster that has taken any real theory classes on the One Power (although the Wise Ones do seem to experiment a little bit with the One Power). So there isn't anyone else to come up with a way to seal the Dark One up again.

 

The White Tower of today is basically a technical school that teaches known weaves and how to be a used car salesman. All practical, no theory. So there is little innovation (actually there was no innovation until a bunch of girls that didn't study there started playing with the One Power).

 

And those girls haven't spent any time trying to figure out how to reseal the Bore.

 

So here is a summary of the choices:

1. Rand's Plan: Clear the existing seals and start over. And do so on the good guys' time table.

2. Egwene's Plan: La la la la la la la la la la! I can't hear you! Fight the Last Battle on the Dark One's schedule (after he continues to soften the good guys with more bubbles of evil).

I already explained that Rand's plan amounted to break the seals, then wing it. Egwene's amounts to: 1)Stop Rand acting like an idiot, 2)come up with a plan for how to defeat Shai'tan, 3)follow it. Rand gave her every impression that he was acting without a plan beyond breaking the seals. Egwene is just trying to get him to make some sort of plan before he does it. If anyone was unreasonable there, it was Rand.

 

No one is saying she can always be safe, my complaint is her faulty logic of "Min said my babies will be born ok, I can take some risks."

How is the logic faulty? Min is infallible, so we are told. Elayne cannot die. The risks of anything happening were minor even without the Viewing, with it she had a cast iron guaranteee that she'd be fine. What risks did she take?

[Eht Slat Meit]

How is the logic faulty? Min is infallible, so we are told. Elayne cannot die. The risks of anything happening were minor even without the Viewing, with it she had a cast iron guaranteee that she'd be fine. What risks did she take?

 

A mental vegetable is entirely capable of giving birth, as are many women with disabilities that would render her incapable of ruling Andor as Queen. That she cannot die is entirely irrelevant - her behavior has displayed incredible ignorance in supposing that the inability to die is the same as invulnerability.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

Gateway worked on the Gholam (Can't be touched by weaves).. Couldn't have Elayne just opened a Gateway near/behind near him and pushed him with a push of air into the gateway and cancel the gateway, cutting him in half?

[Sabio]

Think the air would of dispelled soon as the weaves hit him, hittig him with a bookshelf pushing him back would of worked though.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

Oops, didn't think that through too much..

 

Could you open a gateway inside someone? pretty sure that's how Deathgates work, but wondering about normal ones?