Elayne's Arc

[Duskfire]

Slightly off subject, but I think its awesome that Daved Hanlon got away. For a killer/rapist darkfriend, he seemed like an interesting character. He has survived for quite a while too, alot longer then the usual darkfriend lifespan during the books.

[Cyf]

I disagree with the POV that Aes Sedai should be totally seperate. In fact, I think that's the issue. While they (and male channelers as well) need a central authority, they need to be spread out. What I see as the perfect solution is Aes Sedai as part of nations, advisors if the King/Queen wants it, or so on. They are not ordered, they choose to. They follow a series of rules, are policed by the WT/BT if they mis-step. And everything else is up to the nation they live in.

 

Not 'Keep Apart and Follow the WT/BT' but 'Be bound by the rules and be part of the societies they're in'. It's certainly true that channeling is genetic. So is intelligence up to a point. So is strength of arms. The point is to merge with societies, rather than keeping themselves apart.

 

I really don't see a point with having official Travelling Grounds that one pays for. :)

[Tom Sawyer]

I really don't see a point with having official Travelling Grounds that one pays for. :)

 

The point is a revenue stream for the Andoran treasury. If you want to get a shipment off to Arad Doman or Shara, having it there by the end of the day instead of going on a trek is worth a boatload of cash. It also helps to make the Sea Folk irrelevant and anything that undercuts those pointless twits is a good thing.

[Cyf]

The point is a revenue stream for the Andoran treasury. If you want to get a shipment off to Arad Doman or Shara, having it there by the end of the day instead of going on a trek is worth a boatload of cash. It also helps to make the Sea Folk irrelevant and anything that undercuts those pointless twits is a good thing.

 

I misphrased myself.

 

I really don't see a bad point with having a Travelling Grounds. :)

[Silver]

Don't know if anybody has mentioned this earlier in the thread (too lazy to look) but did anybody else notice that Elayne can now dispel cloud cover by just concentrating on her bond with Rand? Since this doesn't seem to happen with Min, it might be a channeler or baby related thing.

[Rand Skywalker]

Slightly off subject, but I think its awesome that Daved Hanlon got away. For a killer/rapist darkfriend, he seemed like an interesting character. He has survived for quite a while too, alot longer then the usual darkfriend lifespan during the books.

 

I agree, I'm glad he'll live to be a thorn in Elayne's side another day.

[Emily_Sedai]

Slightly off subject, but I think its awesome that Daved Hanlon got away. For a killer/rapist darkfriend, he seemed like an interesting character. He has survived for quite a while too, alot longer then the usual darkfriend lifespan during the books.

 

I agree, I'm glad he'll live to be a thorn in Elayne's side another day.

 

Either that, or Elayne will arrange for him to experience another 'bitch slap' session with the palace guards *laugh* Poor Hanlon, beaten by a single cut purse from the streets of Caemlyn *laugh* Of course, one has to wonder what his punishment will be for failing the Shadow and leading Elayne to the D.F. headquarters... since punishments seem to be twists on things you enjoy, one has to wonder *laugh*

[AutomatedTeller]

Why not use the one power for profit? the sea folk do it all the time, with the wind finders.

 

btw - I really doubt she's going to make that much of a profit, considering the sea folk have space in caemlyn. They can charge for gateways just as well as the Kin can.

 

My only problem with these scenes is...

 

what the hell does it have to do with tarmon gaidon? I mean - why spend 1/2 a page talking about it, and plans for apprentice-switching and stuff like that? It has no relevance to the climax of the book.

 

Why do we get THAT, and not a discussion about how to defend Caemlyn from the trollocs? Or Tuon's war prep. Or something about seanchan. Or more of anything relevant to the last book in teh series?

[Duskfire]

Slightly off subject, but I think its awesome that Daved Hanlon got away. For a killer/rapist darkfriend, he seemed like an interesting character. He has survived for quite a while too, alot longer then the usual darkfriend lifespan during the books.

 

I agree, I'm glad he'll live to be a thorn in Elayne's side another day.

 

Either that, or Elayne will arrange for him to experience another 'bitch slap' session with the palace guards *laugh* Poor Hanlon, beaten by a single cut purse from the streets of Caemlyn *laugh* Of course, one has to wonder what his punishment will be for failing the Shadow and leading Elayne to the D.F. headquarters... since punishments seem to be twists on things you enjoy, one has to wonder *laugh*

 

Well, it seems he got ordered to basically kill everyone else that was there going by his comments after killing the Aes Sedai, so maybe he'll be fine. He does seem to have friends in high places, considering he should have been killed about four times now by the Forsaken.

[Zentari]

Honestly, Elayne did not have a plan.She acted on impulse based on an inspiration she had and instead of refining said flash into a plan, she jumped the gun like a kid when she thought nobody would interfere with her actions.

A plan needs to have

1)A clear goal: She had that, it was to get information.Not specific info but still...

 

2)Steps to achieve said goal: She took a HUGE risk here.She assumed she would be able to fool a blackfriend into believing she was a forsaken, as high as it get's in their command ladder (besides Naeblis).The risk she took there paid off.She used psychological pressure and the innate fear to wring out a general outline then press on it to gleam more info.That part was BRILLIANT.

 

3)Contingencies to deal with problems: This is what stops her inspiration from being a plan; THIS PART IS NON-EXISTENT ! Did she think that MAYBE the forsaken command ladder used other means to identify themselves as forsaken (not talking about showing their faces, I'm talking about a specific weave ,ring etc)? Nope.Did she take the necessary precautions to protect herself ? Hell no,some random guards do not count as a precaution. Did she run the plan through screening (i.e. someone else) in order to find flaws/improve it ? NO, why would she squander her freedom she managed to get in this fortunate occasion (no one near to stop her) ?

 

These are the problems I have with Elayne's so called "plan".As for the rest (behavior etc.) , don't even get me started.

[Rand Skywalker]

Also, it was almost like Elayne was just excited to get away from Brigitte's eye and do something dangerous for the fun of it.

[Mr Ares]

Why not use the one power for profit? the sea folk do it all the time, with the wind finders.

 

btw - I really doubt she's going to make that much of a profit, considering the sea folk have space in caemlyn. They can charge for gateways just as well as the Kin can.

 

My only problem with these scenes is...

 

what the hell does it have to do with tarmon gaidon? I mean - why spend 1/2 a page talking about it, and plans for apprentice-switching and stuff like that? It has no relevance to the climax of the book.

 

Why do we get THAT, and not a discussion about how to defend Caemlyn from the trollocs? Or Tuon's war prep. Or something about seanchan. Or more of anything relevant to the last book in teh series?

The world doesn't end at TG. It is reasonable for the chracters to make plans for what comes afterwards. One of the things people like about the series is the sense that there is more to the world than just what is in the books, that it began before the story, will continue after, and other stuff is going on during.

 

Honestly, Elayne did not have a plan.She acted on impulse based on an inspiration she had and instead of refining said flash into a plan, she jumped the gun like a kid when she thought nobody would interfere with her actions.

A plan needs to have

1)A clear goal: She had that, it was to get information.Not specific info but still...

 

2)Steps to achieve said goal: She took a HUGE risk here.She assumed she would be able to fool a blackfriend into believing she was a forsaken, as high as it get's in their command ladder (besides Naeblis).The risk she took there paid off.She used psychological pressure and the innate fear to wring out a general outline then press on it to gleam more info.That part was BRILLIANT.

 

3)Contingencies to deal with problems: This is what stops her inspiration from being a plan; THIS PART IS NON-EXISTENT ! Did she think that MAYBE the forsaken command ladder used other means to identify themselves as forsaken (not talking about showing their faces, I'm talking about a specific weave ,ring etc)? Nope.Did she take the necessary precautions to protect herself ? Hell no,some random guards do not count as a precaution. Did she run the plan through screening (i.e. someone else) in order to find flaws/improve it ? NO, why would she squander her freedom she managed to get in this fortunate occasion (no one near to stop her) ?

 

These are the problems I have with Elayne's so called "plan".As for the rest (behavior etc.) , don't even get me started.

What was the huge risk Elayne took? What we see in the books is Elayne disguising herself as an ally to trick information from a shielded and unarmed woman. If the BA wasn't fooled, or worked it out after a time, then what can she do? If she attacks Elayne physically, Elayne only needs to delay her until help arrives - and help is not far away. If she is rumbled, she loses nothing. She was really only at risk if something really unlikely happened - like a jailbreak at the exact same time she was in there. That can't really be planned for (due to it being hugely unlikely). I have yet to see any decent explanation for why Elayne made a stupid move there.

[David Selig]

2)Steps to achieve said goal: She took a HUGE risk here.She assumed she would be able to fool a blackfriend into believing she was a forsaken, as high as it get's in their command ladder (besides Naeblis).The risk she took there paid off.She used psychological pressure and the innate fear to wring out a general outline then press on it to gleam more info.That part was BRILLIANT.

What huge risk? If the BA is fooled, good. If not, Elayne just leaves and that's it.

 

3)Contingencies to deal with problems: This is what stops her inspiration from being a plan; THIS PART IS NON-EXISTENT ! Did she think that MAYBE the forsaken command ladder used other means to identify themselves as forsaken (not talking about showing their faces, I'm talking about a specific weave ,ring etc)? Nope.Did she take the necessary precautions to protect herself ? Hell no,some random guards do not count as a precaution.

For the zillion time - these prisoners were shielded and heavily guarded. If they recognised her trick and weren't fooled that she was a Forsaken, she'd just loses a possible source of information and that's it.

You make it sound as if the Black Ajah were supposed to be free and dangerous at the time, which is not the case. Was she supposed to take a 100 guards and 20 other channellers to interrogate one shielded and already guarded Black Ajah member?

[Demon_AS]

To be honest, I find Elayne to be among the more irritating characters in the entire series, and it's got nothing to do with BS's writing style.

 

Her plan to get more information - while being clever in its own right, was poorly planned and I suppose that's part of her entire character - she's supposed to be this recklessly brave individual (drawing parallels, I suppose, to Ilyena Sunhair). What annoys me is that she's being portrayed in two different ways; the first being this recklessly poor planner of a person, the second being Thom's intellectual love-child with her seemingly adept feel for the Game of Houses. Even Morgase is falling down at Elayne's feet over how brilliant a Queen she's going to be.

 

I don't really think you can have both personality types, personally. It just doesn't feel right.

[Zentari]

2)Steps to achieve said goal: She took a HUGE risk here.She assumed she would be able to fool a blackfriend into believing she was a forsaken, as high as it get's in their command ladder (besides Naeblis).The risk she took there paid off.She used psychological pressure and the innate fear to wring out a general outline then press on it to gleam more info.That part was BRILLIANT.

What huge risk? If the BA is fooled, good. If not, Elayne just leaves and that's it.

A simple tackle or anything of that short could have nasty effects on her.She's pregnant and instead of thinking of ways to protect herself and her children all she does is think she has some godmode cheat activated.

 

3)Contingencies to deal with problems: This is what stops her inspiration from being a plan; THIS PART IS NON-EXISTENT ! Did she think that MAYBE the forsaken command ladder used other means to identify themselves as forsaken (not talking about showing their faces, I'm talking about a specific weave ,ring etc)? Nope.Did she take the necessary precautions to protect herself ? Hell no,some random guards do not count as a precaution.

For the zillion time - these prisoners were shielded and heavily guarded. If they recognised her trick and weren't fooled that she was a Forsaken, she'd just loses a possible source of information and that's it.

You make it sound as if the Black Ajah were supposed to be free and dangerous at the time, which is not the case. Was she supposed to take a 100 guards and 20 other channellers to interrogate one shielded and already guarded Black Ajah member?

Yet having those 20 people on stantby in case something goes wrong could have helped tremendously.Or maybe not, but either way the thought didn't even cross that mind of hers.

[David Selig]

A simple tackle? This is how you can hurt a powerful channeller holding the Source and watching you carefully? What are the odds of that happening? It's more likely for Elayne to be hit by a meteor standing in her garden. Especially considering Chesmal is an Aes Sedai and is used to do everything with the Power.

 

And don't think bringing up 20 guards in the dungeon with all the commotion this would lead to would alert Temaile that something is fishy?

[Zentari]

A simple tackle? This is how you can hurt a powerful channeller holding the Source and watching you carefully? What are the odds of that happening? It's more likely for Elayne to be hit by a meteor standing in her garden. Especially considering Chesmal is an Aes Sedai and is used to do everything with the Power.

 

And don't think bringing up 20 guards in the dungeon with all the commotion this would lead to would alert Temaile that something is fishy?

Yes ,a simple tackle.Said channeler was pregnant afterall and while up to that point that meant that she had trouble starting to channel , it could also interfere with other aspects as well.Sure , you might say, but that hadn't happened up until that point so it was unlikely to happen.Thing is , that's the problem : she did not stop to give that or anything else a thought.

 

Nope, not really.If the guards were up to the plan the commotion could be avoided.

 

Both these and others are points that the rest of the characters could have brought up.Sure , they WOULD get overprotective but it's better to be safe than sorry,right ? Instead of doing that however , she behaved like a spoiled child does when his/her parents are away : "Now I'm going to do what I want".

[nolirion]

No link to what you had just said but i was reading some of the old Viewing of Min ;

One of the very first she had (and the first viewing of the wot character are often important)

A severed hand, not hers.

It is a wild guess but considering her ability to create ter'angreal and The unknown flaw of Callandor .

Could she Make an hand Ter'angreal that can wield Callandor ?

Not sure about that

[capuga]

No link to what you had just said but i was reading some of the old Viewing of Min ;

One of the very first she had (and the first viewing of the wot character are often important)

A severed hand, not hers.

It is a wild guess but considering her ability to create ter'angreal and The unknown flaw of Callandor .

Could she Make an hand Ter'angreal that can wield Callandor ?

Not sure about that

 

Its possible. I thought the viewing of Rand holding Callandor in a hand of black onyx was him with a hand ter'angreal. Its also possible that the severed hand is her in control of a portion of the Band of the Red Hand now that they have a contract with Andor.

[PatsNats28]

She was annoying, but I've got Egwene below her again after the events of this book (I had her ahead of Elayne after tGS, but not now...)

[nolirion]

No link to what you had just said but i was reading some of the old Viewing of Min ;

One of the very first she had (and the first viewing of the wot character are often important)

A severed hand, not hers.

It is a wild guess but considering her ability to create ter'angreal and The unknown flaw of Callandor .

Could she Make an hand Ter'angreal that can wield Callandor ?

Not sure about that

 

Its possible. I thought the viewing of Rand holding Callandor in a hand of black onyx was him with a hand ter'angreal. Its also possible that the severed hand is her in control of a portion of the Band of the Red Hand now that they have a contract with Andor.

Yes perhaps , I am really uncertain

[Sharaman]

A prosthetic ter'angreal is really cool.

[AparnaVengakkad]

About the succession, it was natural for Elayne to worry about it. There might've been another civil war if Morgase had not abdicated because even if Elayne steps down what is to say other nobles will support Morgase considering her exploits before she left town(Dyelin herself says that). In fact they are more likely to fight her and then fight among themselves or something else. It would've been a disaster. She was happy to see her mother, she just wanted to get everything cleared up first.

 

Elayne rushes into things is due to a combination of three things:- She has an adventurous spirit (which other person would try to walk the rope with no power just for her own sake), she is bored with all the court work (it is clear that she is. she is staying there it is because it is her responsibility nothing else), and she is mollycoddled to death by everyone near her. Anybody would be frustrated with all that.

 

She did not treat Mat wrongly. Any other monarch would've done the same. More so, in some cases they would've listened to his terms and then tried to assassinate him or go behind his back to Aludra. Elayne is straightforward in her dealings with Mat as well as in her dealins with Perrin. Yes she considers keeping the original and giving the copy but doesn't. It would be a boring man or woman who wouldn't even consider wrong doing. The strength is in overcoming that weakness and she did. As for Rand, contacting him was heard without a gateway esp when he was stuck in Caemlyn due to verin. and last battle was coming near. Not to mention, that Rand with his taveren effect would have not allowed the band to have anything but probably distributed the whole thing evenly among his people.

 

Just to reiterate what everybody else has said, if Elayne was not hard on Perrin, then there would've been an Andor which is broken to bits for everyone who felt a little rebellious could raise up his local people and start fighting for perfectly personal and selfish reasons. Perrin did not, but who will believe that? Everyone will think that the Queen is weak and could easily be threatened. In fact the terms she came to was pretty cool. She didn't beat around the bush and came straight to the point. That is commendable.

 

And i don't think Morgase had to face a full scale civil war. I think people like Ellorien and Other strong houses (who were against Elayne) were all for her and she had an easier time than Elayne.

 

Finally Elayne was extremely nice to her brother (both her brothers) but more so Gawyn. SHe had to face a lot of problem because the fellow wasn't there her by side and yet absolved him of all responsibility and helped him understand himself.

 

It is strange that people on the Aviendha thread are worrying about the situation after last battle and yet people here are miffed that Elayne is looking ahead and planning for a future after the battle. Elayne cannot forget planning just on the off chhance that they may fail (worse that would have been a very negative feeling). And as for preparation for TG, a united and stable Andor plus carhein will be good for that.

 

She is probably avoiding the issue of TG because she doesn't want to dwell on the subject of losing Rand. It is better to look at your responsibilities to your country than think that your love is walking towards death (and you probably cannot do anything about it).

 

I didn't read the whole comment thread, so i may have repeated what others said. Sorry if so.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I have a bit of a difficult time with all of it. On the one hand, I think they should take one problem at a time, concentrate on Tarmon Gaidon, win that, and THEN worry about what comes next. But on the other hand, the surest way to succeed is to proceed on the basis that you will, that success is inevitable. That means that you do think ahead and spend most of your time planning for what happens after TG.

 

Like everything in life ( fictional or real ) it's all a matter of balance. You need both a plan for how to win and also a plan for how life goes on afterwards.

 

If Rand has a really big fault, it's that until now he has given no thought to what comes after TG, because he expects to die. Maybe Mahatma Rand will get beyond that and give a thought or three to what happens next.

[Darkleech]

Personnally i think the Daved Hanlon stoyline should have ended ages ago - just have mat or talmanes kill him off quick - their is so many other issues that need to be addressed in the next book he probably should have just been executed to make way for those better storylines.