Elayne's Arc

[Emily_Sedai]

I do think it's admirable that she's willing to take such great risks personally. What I find equally deplorable to counterbalance that is that she constantly shrugs off the attempts of people who love and care about her to protect her, and she also acts without considering the lives of her twins. As Birgitte pointed out, it's perfectly possible for Elayne to be captured by the Shadow and give birth to perfectly healthy twins, who will then be ushered into a life of unspeakable horrors.

 

But does she care about this or think about this? No.

I think the real crux of the anger is that Perrin and Rand have both realized their mistakes and come to face their flaws; Elayne (and also Egwene, to an extent) really haven't done so, which is why they still continue to catch a lot of flak.

Gotta agree with Mercer; if anyone has to bite it, I'd really be indifferent to Elayne doing so. Would feel really bad for Rand, and because of the kids, and Birgitte but she's just a rather uninteresting character to me at the moment.

 

As stated earlier, Elayne didn't go into the cells with no one knowing... she had guards on call along with the Kin. She had the situation perfectly in hand, however by some fluke of timing, the plan backfired. It happens *shrug* She adapted, and fought back using her skills and barely managed to survive. She showed some toughness there imho. What would Birgitte being up in the gateway room have accomplished? What would having 6 more soliders have accomplished? Maybe stopped the secretary from killing the people there, but then he would have sprung the black sisters the next night instead. In Elayne's view, she was going to interrogate/trick a single, solitary black sister who was shielded. That's like saying I'm going to go interrogate a prisoner that is chained to a wall with bars in between us. Would I expect a bodyguard to accompany me there? There is really no threat of danger.

 

Hmm, Rand has been in charge of a nation since TDR, and treated as a Lord since TGH. Perrin since TSR. Elayne: KoD. Bit of a time gap for her to grow into leadership, and it took Perrin until this last book to accept leadership, and was willing to toss lives away up until KoD in order to save his wife and screw everyone else. Rand was killing innocents in the last book because Graendal may be in a location, and abandonded the Domani to their fate because he didn't have the time to help them. I think we owe Elayne, and indeed Egween, some time to grow. I'm not sure if it's a male vs. female thing, but it seems as though the fans are certainly harder on the female leaders than the male ones.

 

While it's a fair point about the guards, Elayne refuses to consider she may be in danger because of the view quite a lot. It's hardly a rare occurence.

And as mentioned, Elayne's had far more training and experience in being a leader than Rand has.

 

Elayne's mother taught her how to handle a civil war? How to be an Aes Sedai and deal with the black ajah and interrogate them? How to handle the end of days, with fields laying barren, the sky unnaturally dark during the day, and the Dragon walking the Earth? How to deal with a Black Tower full of men who can channel on her soil? How to address a group of rogue, refugee channelers living in the palace? The threat of an unknown force using flying creatures that can drop shock troops at any point? Her kingdom being shattered by a male Aes Sedai trapped within the Bore at the time of her birth? In addition, as anyone who has *ever* held a job can tell you... being trained to do a job, and actually doing it, are a bit different.

 

So far in her life, Elayne helped to save the Panarch, become an Aes Sedai, save refugees, find the bowl of winds and save the entire world from frying, help Rand with the high lords of Tear, protect Caemlyn from an assault, save Brig, secure the throne of Andor and Car, deal with her mother being deceased, and help rescue Egween from the Seanchan. Not too shabby for an 18 year old. What has she really screwed up? Getting Vandene killed and getting stabbed in the cells? The bargain with the Sea Folk? Getting on the bad side of Mat Cauthon, a man who dislikes nobles on principle?

 

I'll grant you that Elayne considers herself safe all too often, but when Brig brought up the points about her children could still be born and Elayne in not-so-good shape, she agreed with her, and agreed to have more care. In the case of her going to the interrogation, I believe that she was reasonable with her safety.

 

 

Uh, yea.

 

You do realize, of course, that the reason Rand isn't the First Prince of the flaming Sword is that his mom hitched out of Caemlyn on a mule, his uncle went up to the Blight to get turned into one of the most interesting hitmen outside of a mafia story, and his grandmother died of grief.

 

Causing a flaming civil war that led to Trakand taking the throne.

 

Elayne's succession really didn't have any more combat than her mom's, just one stupid siege and relief sally that lasted at least two *bloody* books longer than it needed to.

 

But her mom sure as *hell* knows how to deal with civil war.

 

Bit patronizing, aren't you? Uh, yea. Hoy.

 

Okay, so you as a Queen, would teach your daughter, the princess/heir apparent, how to deal with a succession? That would be high up on the list of priorities of what she needed to know to rule, especially with being in charge of one of the most stable nations and with secure alliances to the other noble houses? You would have had a foretelling that told you that a male forsaken would appear, dazzle you a bit, and have you flogging your allies among the great houses? You'd be a darn good queen in that case...

 

I also noticed that you only addressed one thing out of the list that was provided. How about the other things?

[AutomatedTeller]

I think that when Elayne was doing all the things that she did as an Accepted Aes Sedai, she was interesting. There was a ton of growth.

 

Much of what she has done since starting to take the throne hasn't been all that growth - bonding Rand, and becoming 1st sister to Aviendha, sure.

 

but so much of it has been stuff she has trained for. Sure, it's great she's using it... but Mat kind of put his finger on it - she acted like a bloody queen before, so why would he expect her to bloody act differently now?

 

To me, it's less an arc in this book, and more a line that just keeps going. The only thing she did in this book was fund the dragons and take over Cairhienin, and even that has no real effect - it's not like the Cairhienen's were going to sit out the Last Battle.

[randsc]

I have a tough time sorting out Elayne. Because I realize that I am biased against her because of the baths.

 

And also because I share Mat's revulsion of nobility, and Elayne is the epitome of an entitled twit. Here's a thought, Miss Queenie. How about the people of the Two Rivers, who have received no benefits from their(long-dead)association with Andor, get to choose their own destiny.

 

Which Age sees the development of democracy?

[MierinWru]

How about the people of the Two Rivers, who have received no benefits from their(long-dead)association with Andor, get to choose their own destiny.

This bothered me quite a bit, too. Elayne's just delusional. Owning a land means providing safety (among other things) for it, too. And Andor's been doing nothing for the Two Rivers for decades (or centuries?). 

I've started to like Elayne progressively less with each book. 

 

 

 

[smileyman]

How about the people of the Two Rivers, who have received no benefits from their(long-dead)association with Andor, get to choose their own destiny.

This bothered me quite a bit, too. Elayne's just delusional. Owning a land means providing safety (among other things) for it, too. And Andor's been doing nothing for the Two Rivers for decades (or centuries?). 

I've started to like Elayne progressively less with each book. 

 

This argument was made to her several times--thus settling on the compromise of having Perrin be the Steward of the Two Rivers, which is a legal fiction that makes them part of Andor while not making them part of Andor.

[dwn]

How about the people of the Two Rivers, who have received no benefits from their(long-dead)association with Andor, get to choose their own destiny.

This bothered me quite a bit, too. Elayne's just delusional. Owning a land means providing safety (among other things) for it, too. And Andor's been doing nothing for the Two Rivers for decades (or centuries?). 

I've started to like Elayne progressively less with each book. 

 

Her point is that she can't just allow a rebellion in her realm, or just allow someone to claim nobility. Fair or not in this particular case, to do so would undermine her authority. Letting Perrin and Faile just get their way would be completely irresponsible, hence the legal dance about 'Steward to the Dragon Reborn'.

 

-- dwn

[smileyman]

How about the people of the Two Rivers, who have received no benefits from their(long-dead)association with Andor, get to choose their own destiny.

This bothered me quite a bit, too. Elayne's just delusional. Owning a land means providing safety (among other things) for it, too. And Andor's been doing nothing for the Two Rivers for decades (or centuries?). 

I've started to like Elayne progressively less with each book. 

 

Her point is that she can't just allow a rebellion in her realm, or just allow someone to claim nobility. Fair or not in this particular case, to do so would undermine her authority. Letting Perrin and Faile just get their way would be completely irresponsible, hence the legal dance about 'Steward to the Dragon Reborn'.

 

-- dwn

 

As has been pointed out, if you claim a part of ground as your realm you also owe responsibility to that part of ground. Andor hasn't shown any responsibility to the Two Rivers ever.

[MierinWru]

This argument was made to her several times--thus settling on the compromise of having Perrin be the Steward of the Two Rivers, which is a legal fiction that makes them part of Andor while not making them part of Andor.

 

Fair enough. But that doesn't make her attitude regarding the point in question any less annoying. I remember her asking Perrin and Faile for a reason not to have them beheaded.

[dwn]

How about the people of the Two Rivers, who have received no benefits from their(long-dead)association with Andor, get to choose their own destiny.

This bothered me quite a bit, too. Elayne's just delusional. Owning a land means providing safety (among other things) for it, too. And Andor's been doing nothing for the Two Rivers for decades (or centuries?). 

I've started to like Elayne progressively less with each book. 

 

Her point is that she can't just allow a rebellion in her realm, or just allow someone to claim nobility. Fair or not in this particular case, to do so would undermine her authority. Letting Perrin and Faile just get their way would be completely irresponsible, hence the legal dance about 'Steward to the Dragon Reborn'.

 

-- dwn

 

As has been pointed out, if you claim a part of ground as your realm you also owe responsibility to that part of ground. Andor hasn't shown any responsibility to the Two Rivers ever.

 

That may be a nice notion, but it's not really how things work. No ruler or nation is going to let you snip off a piece of their territory without a fight. Elayne's only real options were to execute Perrin and anyone who replaced him, face him in a civil war, or find a way to justify elevating him to the nobility. Thankfully both sides were reasonable in this case, because the first two options are generally how such things have played out historically.

 

-- dwn

[smileyman]

How about the people of the Two Rivers, who have received no benefits from their(long-dead)association with Andor, get to choose their own destiny.

This bothered me quite a bit, too. Elayne's just delusional. Owning a land means providing safety (among other things) for it, too. And Andor's been doing nothing for the Two Rivers for decades (or centuries?). 

I've started to like Elayne progressively less with each book. 

 

Her point is that she can't just allow a rebellion in her realm, or just allow someone to claim nobility. Fair or not in this particular case, to do so would undermine her authority. Letting Perrin and Faile just get their way would be completely irresponsible, hence the legal dance about 'Steward to the Dragon Reborn'.

 

-- dwn

 

As has been pointed out, if you claim a part of ground as your realm you also owe responsibility to that part of ground. Andor hasn't shown any responsibility to the Two Rivers ever.

 

That may be a nice notion, but it's not really how things work. No ruler or nation is going to let you snip off a piece of their territory without a fight. Elayne's only real options were to execute Perrin and anyone who replaced him, face him in a civil war, or find a way to justify elevating him to the nobility. Thankfully both sides were reasonable in this case, because the first two options are generally how such things have played out historically.

 

-- dwn

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, just commenting on the attitudes from both sides.

[anotherfingolfin]

the most annoying and unnecessarily long arc, imho. after those books filled with elayne's arc, and the impression that it had finally concluded, this was a slap in the face. omg, MORE boring politicking? i dunno, i think it was the least important thread, and should have been kept much shorter.

[FarShainMael]

Uh, if that stolen amulet's going to anyone, and allows them to continue dipping into the sweet sweet crack that is the TP, it'll be Elan Morin or Demandred.

 

They're the only two Chosen left in favor, and we know that Elan Morin, at least, uses the TP exclusively.

 

And methinks Demandred might get to start partaking of that juice.

 

No, what I meant was this: Possibly someone may hang that copy on Rand to stop him from accessing the OP, not realising that he has access to the TP - or maybe to force him to use the TP. The copy itself won't give anyone the ability to access the TP.

[waffle]

Elayne's only real options were to execute Perrin [snip]

 

that would of been good for a laugh. Surprised Elayne didn´t try that. It would of been shortsighted and would of gone wrong. Sounds like her MO.

 

 

 

Just remembered that there was one point in the book where Elayne definitely wasn´t boring, careless, manipulative or dumb. When she talked to Gawyn. Sorted him out.

[Cyf]

I haven't liked Elayne much, but you have to give her a little credit. Other than the idiocy leading up to the Black Ajah, she was pretty good in this book. Her actions were fairly responsible, and smart.

 

I will, however, disagree with people insisting people give the boys better thrift simply due to gender. I don't think that's it.

 

Rand? Sure, he's gotten bad over the last few books (ironically IMO he got to the worst point during Cadsuane's period and wasn't bad up to that point. Started when Moiraine died). But let's see. He's going mad due to the taint, few nations are willing to work with him, and oh, he's looking forward to trying to defeat the Dark One and dying. He has reasons.

 

Perrin? God, I hated him. So that's one you're wrong with. But let's see him. He thinks he's going to go mad due to Noam, his wife comes from a culture totally alien to him, and she gets kidnapped by Aiel and he thinks she'll be killed or raped. Again, reasons.

 

Mat? Well, he's the least bad, really. He's a gambler, definitely, but I can't really think of anything majorly bad. One reason it boggles me. People act like his drinking and womanizing is a horrible offense, but he ... uh, doesn't chase anyone who doesn't want to be chased. As long as they're agreeable and he's not telling them he'll marry them when he won't, /who cares/? :)

 

The girls, on the other hand?

 

Egwene had it worse for a bit with her beatings, but regardless of pain, it wasn't nearly as bad as Rand. Perrin...well. Physically maybe.

 

Elayne? No way.

 

Nynaeve? She was a bitch for a while, but god, she rules in tGS and ToM.

 

Basically, the boys have /reasons/ for their bad actions when they happen. The girls have far less of one. Sometimes some (Egwene's shaped by a culture that thinks men inferior, but under the surface at times to hide it). In some ways, Seanchan is actually BETTER, at least gender roles wise. They are horrible with what they do with Damane, but there's little of the biting, beneath-the-surface sexism that Rand's part of the world shows.

[Jeangray]

I will, however, disagree with people insisting people give the boys better thrift simply due to gender. I don't think that's it.

 

Well, nobody considers them idiots for the many, many times when they take unnecessary risks and almost get killed . Or that they don't have backup and don't allow people to protect them. Both of Elayne's plans re: BA are downright sensible in comparison and she actually did have backup when pretending to be a FS, even if it wasn't Brigitte. So, yea...

 

But keeping those BA alive for so long, leave alone Mellar and Shiane, whom she had every right to execute? Moronic indeed. In fact, finally getting rid of Liandrin's cronies would have been worth problems with the WT anyway and I am sure that Egwene would have given her permission if Elayne contacted her in T'AR. Thousands of people were witnesses and victims of their crimes.

[Emily_Sedai]

I haven't liked Elayne much, but you have to give her a little credit. Other than the idiocy leading up to the Black Ajah, she was pretty good in this book. Her actions were fairly responsible, and smart.

 

I will, however, disagree with people insisting people give the boys better thrift simply due to gender. I don't think that's it.

 

Rand? Sure, he's gotten bad over the last few books (ironically IMO he got to the worst point during Cadsuane's period and wasn't bad up to that point. Started when Moiraine died). But let's see. He's going mad due to the taint, few nations are willing to work with him, and oh, he's looking forward to trying to defeat the Dark One and dying. He has reasons.

 

Perrin? God, I hated him. So that's one you're wrong with. But let's see him. He thinks he's going to go mad due to Noam, his wife comes from a culture totally alien to him, and she gets kidnapped by Aiel and he thinks she'll be killed or raped. Again, reasons.

 

Mat? Well, he's the least bad, really. He's a gambler, definitely, but I can't really think of anything majorly bad. One reason it boggles me. People act like his drinking and womanizing is a horrible offense, but he ... uh, doesn't chase anyone who doesn't want to be chased. As long as they're agreeable and he's not telling them he'll marry them when he won't, /who cares/? :)

 

The girls, on the other hand?

 

Egwene had it worse for a bit with her beatings, but regardless of pain, it wasn't nearly as bad as Rand. Perrin...well. Physically maybe.

 

Elayne? No way.

 

Nynaeve? She was a bitch for a while, but god, she rules in tGS and ToM.

 

Basically, the boys have /reasons/ for their bad actions when they happen. The girls have far less of one. Sometimes some (Egwene's shaped by a culture that thinks men inferior, but under the surface at times to hide it). In some ways, Seanchan is actually BETTER, at least gender roles wise. They are horrible with what they do with Damane, but there's little of the biting, beneath-the-surface sexism that Rand's part of the world shows.

,

 

Well, all I would say is:

 

Elayne? Had her mother murdered by a forsaken, and knows she is in love with a man destined to die while breaking the world for a second time, and is bringing in two children into a world during TG. She has to perpetually worry about being assisinated, and as a good leader, is worried about her peoples' futures. Does she have enough food for the next year or even month? In addition, she knows of a plan to assualt her nation from the B.A.. At least Perrin is only worried about himself going crazy, and not his whole nation *laugh* Plus, the added fun for a period of watching for Elaida to kidnap her, lol

[Cyf]

I'll give you Elayne's mother being murdered by a Forsaken, and Rand. But I don't really think that has much to do with her stupid behavior. :) That's my issue. Elayne is just ... stupid at times. She got better in ToM after the BA issue. She seems to think it's a game, almost. It's odd. She's smart one moment, and the next moment she's acting like a naive child. :) She was trained as a Queen, and half the time she acts more like how one might expect Egwene to have acted.

[Mystica]

My problem with Elayne is that she 'simply does not learn' from previous mistakes. Everyone is talking about her twins, but what about Birgitte? If Elayne dies, Birgitte will go mad and go on a suicide rampage. That's basically the faith of a warder losing their Aes Sedai. Has Elayne ever, once, even remotely shown any sign of consideration for that fact? Not that I can recall. Yes, warders put their lives in front of their Aes Sedai, but Aes Sedai KNOW and take VERY SERIOUS their responsibility towards their warder. Not just with the warder's life, but more importantly with their own lives as the result of the Sister dying is death in 99% of the times for a warder. Unless the warder is snatched up by Myrelle.

 

I've liked her every step of the way, applauded her triumphs and admired her courage, but to blatently refuse to learn after time and again getting in to the same situation. After PUTTING herself in the same situation time and again. That's not ignorance anymore. That's not just lack of experience anymore. That's just downright arrogance and self-centeredness. Is that normal for a teenager? Yes. Is it normal for an Aes Sedai or a Queen? Perhaps. Is it right? No.

[David Selig]

I liked Elayne's parts a lot. Her meeting with Mat was hilarious. She made plenty of good decisions regarding the Dragons, the gholam, Cairhien, etc. She even managed to convince Gawyn to give up his retarded "I have to kill al'Thor" plan. The only thing which annoyed me how she got in line with Egwene's plan to stop Rand breaking the seals.

 

I really don't get why people are bashing Elayne for the attempt to disguise as a Forsaken in front of the Black Ajah. It was actually a good plan, which was ruined by the most unlikely of coincidences - her visit coincided with the breakout attempt, which she had no way to know about. Those BA were supposed to be heavily guarded and shielded, so no reason to take more guards with her. Coming there alone can by no means be considered reckless.

 

I disagree that she hasn't learnt too. It was quite clear that after the dungeon incident that she gave up on trying to go anywhere or do anything without being heavily guarded. Even before that she didn't even try to get involved personally in the hunt for the gholam apart from making the foxheads and suggesting the gateway as a way to get rid of him. If this had happened earlier, she would've tried to get involved more directly.

[Sharaman]

I don't think Brigitte and Myrelle would really enjoy the pillow-friending that's part and parcel of saving a warder if Elayne pops it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Regardless of how much sense Elayne's actions make, they did grate on me quite a bit in this book.

 

I love Birgitte, so it's really irritating to me to see Elayne constantly dismissing the word of the woman she was essentially responsible for completely screwing over. If she'd just pay Birgitte the common courtesy of actually taking the advice of the immeasurably old and experienced war hero, I might like her more. For example? Impersonating a Forsaken was fine as a plan, but she should have talked to Birgitte or the palace Aes Sedai and gotten backup in place first. No reason not to.

 

It's the fact that she spurns the advice of the people trying to protect her when she charges off, not that she charges off, that irritates me.

 

Think about that situation for a minute.

 

It's easy to think that if she'd only taken backup, she would have gotten through just fine.

 

There were already guards outside the cells. The Black Ajah rescuers killed them to spring Mellar/Hanlon and would have killed all or most of any backup Elayne might have brought as well. We'd like to believe that Birgitte would have survived, but there's no guarantee of that. The last time Elayne took backup, they all got captured and some died. Everybody has been moaning about that for two books now.

 

Fact is, the girl can't win. Some readers are simply biased against nobility and will find fault with anything Elayne does simply because she's portrayed as a Queen. Queen or no, pregnant or no, she's still got an active roll to play. She's not real. She's just a character like everybody else. Her fate is pre-ordained by Jordan. So, for gosh sakes, everybody, sit back and watch it play out like the author wanted.

[randsc]

I would have preferred one of Perrin's "straightforward" responses to Elayne's silly little, "Can you think of a reason I shouldn't have you beheaded?"

 

Somnething along the lines of, "Because I have an army, larger and more seasoned than yours, waiting just outside. Shall I invite them in?"

[Bob T Dwarf]

I would have preferred one of Perrin's "straightforward" responses to Elayne's silly little, "Can you think of a reason I shouldn't have you beheaded?"

 

Somnething along the lines of, "Because I have an army, larger and more seasoned than yours, waiting just outside. Shall I invite them in?"

 

Yeah, but pleasant as such a response might be to contemplate, it would only make the situation worse. As Queen of Andor, she has to ask that question. She has worked very hard to unite Andor, and make it a strong force in support of the Dragon Reborn. Being unable to control her own western provinces undercuts all of that.

 

Perrin needs to help Elayne find a way for the Queen of Andor to help one of the man she loves, the man she follows best friends and staunchest allies gain the respect and status he needs for the role he has to play without undermining her own stature.

 

Perrin, proving he merits the position he holds, helps her find that optimum solution.

[Tom Sawyer]

But Perrin did raise some good points. For instance, why should the Two Rivers pay taxes to Andor when Andor wasn't in any position to help out the Two Rivers when it needed it? The fight with the Whitecloaks and Trollocs showed that the place isn't actually part of Elayne's country. Her insistence that Perrin was her subject was just kind of silly and the solution that Camelyn only have a token ownership of the place that didn't really hold any power or authority and didn't get any cash was bending over far more backwards than Perrin really needed to.

[Bob T Dwarf]

But Perrin did raise some good points. For instance, why should the Two Rivers pay taxes to Andor when Andor wasn't in any position to help out the Two Rivers when it needed it? The fight with the Whitecloaks and Trollocs showed that the place isn't actually part of Elayne's country. Her insistence that Perrin was her subject was just kind of silly and the solution that Camelyn only have a token ownership of the place that didn't really hold any power or authority and didn't get any cash was bending over far more backwards than Perrin really needed to.

 

That depends on what Perrin's object was. Since he never had any intention of founding a separate country, what he did was very smart.