Discuss the Epiclogue

[JDJ]

Mierin redemption , that would be fun but nearly impossible .

First we have already a "redemption" in the person of Verin and this is highly unlikely an other will turn again .

Second Dear Lanfear goal's was not to serve the do nor access a position in serving him ;but to acces an higher power .

She even was ready to challenge the DO And the creator alike with rand and the access key .

 

I agree, no redemption.

 

But that does not preclude her trying to work with /use Rand to get free, and find some way to further use him so that she can "access a higher power".

 

I believe she is not working with anyone on some plot to trap Rand, she is working on her own, for herself - as she always has.

The whole "I-WANT-TO-MAKE-HIM-SUFFER-UNTIL-HE-DIE-AND-THEN-THE-GREAT-LORD-CAN-RESURRECT-HIM-FOR-ME-TO-MAKE-HIM-SUFFER-SOME-MORE" is her new goal i think

 

Her greater goal is to supplant the DO.

[nolirion]

Mierin redemption , that would be fun but nearly impossible .

First we have already a "redemption" in the person of Verin and this is highly unlikely an other will turn again .

Second Dear Lanfear goal's was not to serve the do nor access a position in serving him ;but to acces an higher power .

She even was ready to challenge the DO And the creator alike with rand and the access key .

 

I agree, no redemption.

 

But that does not preclude her trying to work with /use Rand to get free, and find some way to further use him so that she can "access a higher power".

 

I believe she is not working with anyone on some plot to trap Rand, she is working on her own, for herself - as she always has.

The whole "I-WANT-TO-MAKE-HIM-SUFFER-UNTIL-HE-DIE-AND-THEN-THE-GREAT-LORD-CAN-RESURRECT-HIM-FOR-ME-TO-MAKE-HIM-SUFFER-SOME-MORE" is her new goal i think

 

Her greater goal is to supplant the DO.

Yeah but first she want to play with her LTT Using salt rope and weave of fire

[MierinWru]

Mierin redemption , that would be fun but nearly impossible .

First  we have already a "redemption" in the person of Verin and this is highly unlikely an other will turn again .

Second Dear Lanfear goal's was not to serve the do nor access a position in serving him ;but to acces an higher power .

She even was ready to challenge the DO And the creator alike with rand and the access key .

First: Verin "turning" wasn't really a redemption to be honest. I doubt she was ever a real Darkfriend. On the other hand the same could be said for Lanfear but still it's two seperate cases. I wouldn't exclude the possibility of Lanfear turning against the Dark One just cause Verin did, too.

 

Your second point actually shows that it's not unlikely that she won't hesitate to turn against the Dark One if it serves her needs. And I suppose being mind trapped offers some motivation.

 

 

 

[Ashlyn]

Obviously the Shadow has been working according to different plans and ideas than anyone on the Light side could conceive. I can't help feeling like they have drawn everyone to the wrong places. As an aside: why did Verin have to be so damn secretive?

[Rybal]

OK - so two other people have posted my theory on the zombie-like people in the end.

 

I personally thought that they were those that Fain had corrupted like in the prologue. There is also an Asha'man mentioned in the last BT chapter that is described in a similar fashion.

 

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Mieren ended up helping to reseal the bore. Afterall, who would know the bore itself better than the one who created it in the first place?

[nolirion]

Mierin redemption , that would be fun but nearly impossible .

First  we have already a "redemption" in the person of Verin and this is highly unlikely an other will turn again .

Second Dear Lanfear goal's was not to serve the do nor access a position in serving him ;but to acces an higher power .

She even was ready to challenge the DO And the creator alike with rand and the access key .

First: Verin "turning" wasn't really a redemption to be honest. I doubt she was ever a real Darkfriend. On the other hand the same could be said for Lanfear but still it's two seperate cases. I wouldn't exclude the possibility of Lanfear turning against the Dark One just cause Verin did, too.

 

Your second point actually shows that it's not unlikely that she won't hesitate to turn against the Dark One if it serves her needs. And I suppose being mind trapped offers some motivation.

Yeah but giving her history with Rand (not AoL) could you really consider that she will be all buddy buddy?

And in fact their had been an other redemption , Ingtar and Asmodean (even if that last was forced). So to me it stay highly unlikely

[Kidicaris]

For 4:

 

My first impression was that they are Ayyad males from Shara. I also think that Demandred has solidified his rule in Shara, and having the Ayyad destroy Kandor is his way of showing the GL that he is ready to 'move his armies'.

 

The Ayyad men are used as breeding stock, they are never educated and are killed the moment they begin to channel or reach the age of 21--which ever is first. There wouldn't be very many of them--I don't think. But I guess if Demandred solidified his rule in (part of) Shara fast enough and began training the ones who were old enough to channel he could have a Black Tower of his own. Who knows how many channelers he would have though, since the Ayyad have--until his theoretical domination, strictly adhered to their laws to kill their males.

 

In TGS Demandred tells Moridin that 'My rule is secure. I gather for war. We will be ready." I believe Demandred resides in Shara because of the unlikeliness that he is anywhere else. If he is ready for war by the prologue of TGS, I think it is very possible that he has had enough time to create a Black Tower of his own. And he doesn't need his soldiers to be smart, just to be able to channel. It can be paralleled with how Taim very quickly made Coteren and his croons powerful Asha'man.

 

Unless of course there is a city in the blight, and Damandred is ruling this. Which is what i believe. I think those red veiled chaps are aiel that can channel/their offspring. These fellows need somewhere to live and there have been aiel men going to the blight to die for quite some time, enough for a lot of channelers to build up and their offspring, plus whatever dark friends make their way there. Also fits in with RJ's "blank in the blight".

 

Besides "My rule is secure, I gather for war." What nation is going to fight for the shadow regardless of what their ruler says... They may start off doing it, but they will soon realise that the people they are fighting are trying to hold off hordes of shadowspawn. The army that makes the most sense for him to be gathering is an army of Dreadlords, Darkfriends and shadowspawn, residing in a city in the blight.

 

Edit: forgot to say i think those Aiel men have been being turned 13x13 style.

 

Very interesting. I haven't ever thought much about the Blight. It is very large, and it can't be completely dead since many hundreds of thousands of shadowspawn must live and breed there. The thought of ruins from the AoL being used as cities for dark friends and shadowspawn is rather chilling.

 

You are completely right, Demandred would have trouble convincing any nation of people to fight for the Shadow. And we can't get too carried away with 13x13. If it was as easy, and awesome as it seems, then the DO would have invested heavily in it, turning the entire White Tower one Aes Sedai by one. With Traveling and the large number of Black Ajah it should have been easy to turn many Sisters. Of course, our pov isn't usually in the heads of the BA sisters, so we don't really know how many were turned or not.

Maybe turning was difficult until just recently because the Forsaken were not yet free--to open gateways, and no Aes Sedai could Travel. So moving 13 Aes Sedai--plus victims, to where 13 Fades were was the choke point?

 

I digress. It seems likely that the Shadow would/could turn the Aiel males that wandered into the Blight, but it is highly unlikely Demandred would be able to turn an entire people with the 13x13.

 

I'm just going to rafo. If it turns out Demandred has completely and inexplicably dominated the Shara people (or their entire leadership) then I'll accept that. If Demandred is instead martialing troops from within the Blight from an unknown dark city I'd accept that too. I just hope RJ/BS writes it so it makes some kind of sense.

[MierinWru]

It wouldn't surprise me if Mieren ended up helping to reseal the bore. Afterall, who would know the bore itself better than the one who created it in the first place?

 

That's a very good point actually. And Ran defeating the Dark One with Nynaeve and Mierin by his side would certainly be an ending that most people didn't predict all along.

 

 

If the Bore actually gets sealed again... any chance Mierin could make sure that Elayne and Egwene are on the other side of it when it's sealed? Just saying...

 

 

[Chaotic222]

I digress. It seems likely that the Shadow would/could turn the Aiel males that wandered into the Blight, but it is highly unlikely Demandred would be able to turn an entire people with the 13x13.

 

Wasn't the 13x13 thing specifically referred to as something that could only be done to channelers when it was introduced?

[Tom Sawyer]

That's a very good point actually. And Ran defeating the Dark One with Nynaeve and Mierin by his side would certainly be an ending that most people didn't predict all along.

 

I think it's going to be Moiraine that links with Rand and Nynaeve to seal the Bore. That way, you get all the original people from Emond's Field in the last scene fighting the DO. The three of them linked, the other two taver'en and Thom and Lan as Moiraine and Nynaeve's Warders. You also get Egwene hanging around trying to look important - I really don't know what her role would be, but the others may need someone to toss into the Pit of Doom to distract the DO while they pound some nails over the door.

[Sharaman]

So the blank is a DARK NATION in the Blight?

[MierinWru]

 

I think it's going to be Moiraine that links with Rand and Nynaeve to seal the Bore.

 

Well, that's what everybody expects now I guess. It's probably the only reason Moiraine conveniently received a Ter'Angreal that makes her strong even though she's weak now.

That way Sanderson could have a half-assed explanation for Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear and still have Moiraine be decisive.

[JDJ]

 

I think it's going to be Moiraine that links with Rand and Nynaeve to seal the Bore.

 

Well, that's what everybody expects now I guess. It's probably the only reason Moiraine conveniently received a Ter'Angreal that makes her strong even though she's weak now.

That way Sanderson could have a half-assed explanation for Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear and still have Moiraine be decisive.

 

Or perhaps... given Nyn will be busy linked with Rand, Moiraine will go save Lan. It would seem logical that she would have some interest in saving / debt towards Lan. I think Moiraine being part of callandor is too obvious, and given Rand has already made his plans not taking her into consideration, I suspect she may be doing something else. There are better available candidates Rand is aware of in strength(ie: Alivia), and those who may be available in knowledge (ie: Lanfear).

 

NOTE: Obviously, this assume the time line of using callandor and saving Lan are concurrent... and given how pressed for time things seems to be, that would seem somewhat logical.

[lordofsoup]

Those Aiel with pointed teeth, and red veils make no sense. They kill people with no mercy. Fain could have run into the shaido. They are scary enough to be something Fain would make.

[JDJ]

Those Aiel with pointed teeth, and red veils make no sense. They kill people with no mercy. Fain could have run into the shaido. They are scary enough to be something Fain would make.

 

Would Fain make some zombie Aiel and just let them wander or would he not take them with him as he goes deeper into the blight towards SG to help him get his revenge?

 

That is kinda why I rule out Fain.

[heltok]

Regarding Lanfear/Cyndane, the first question is what actually happened. As I see it, there are two possibilities: (1) Lanfear and Rand were drawn to each other's dreams via their mutual hatred, or (2) via Rand's soul-merge with Moridin, Rand accessed Lanfear via her Mindtrap.

 

In support of (1), think back to what happened between Egwene and Gawyn in LoC, followed by this explanation in Chpt 15:

 

Egwene chose her words carefully. And went on with her dressing, casually, in the same white algode blouse and bulky wool skirt the Wise Ones wore. "Is it possible to be pulled into someone's dream against your will?"

 

"Of course not," Amys said, "not unless your touch is all thumbs."

 

But right on top of her, Bair said, "Not unless there is strong emotion involved. If you try to watch the dream of someone who loves or hates you, you can be pulled in. Or if you love or hate them. That last is why we do not dare try to watch Sevanna's dreams, or 'even to speak with the Shaido Wise Ones in their dreams."

 

... ...

 

Egwene stifled curiosity, and amusement. She made her voice ever so offhanded. "What if you don't try to look in?" Melaine gave her a grateful look, and she felt a twinge of guilt. Not enough that she would not ask for the whole story later, though. Anything that made Melaine blush so had to be hilarious.

 

"I heard of such a thing," Bair said, "when I was young and just beginning to learn. Mora, the Wise One of Colrada Hold, trained me, and she said that if the emotion was very strong, love or hate so great it left room for nothing else, you could be drawn in merely by letting yourself be aware of the other's dream."

 

In support of (2), if Rand could access the Moridin's Mindtraps via their connection, it follows that this could lead to dream invasion by Rand to Lanfear. However, I view this less likely than (1) because (1) already has an established precedent.

 

In either case, the question then becomes whether this occurred by mere happenstance, or whether Moridin manipulated events. I personally think this was a totally random and unpredictable event, probably due to their mutual hatred given the precedent introduced by Egwene/Gawyn in Book 6.

 

Despite Lanfear's hatred of Rand, I have to believe she would do anything at this point to get out of the mindtrap. She's already expressed a desire to betray the Dark One with Rand using the CK in earlier books, and that was when she had a high position among the Shadow. Now that she's a virtual slave, she'd only have more incentive to do so. As mentioned before, she could very well have critical knowledge regarding the Bore --- knowledge that LTT never had, unless Beidomon survived and was questioned after the Bore was made.

 

In conclusion, I think this was for real and was not a trap. Lanfear was never particularly loyal to the Dark One, and now has every reason to ditch him altogether. If Rand can break her free of the Mindtrap he may very well have an ally that can provide him with mission-critical information for sealing the Bore. Of course, since at the end of ToM he plans on going to Shayol Ghul the very next day, could this possibly be accomplished in time?... I don't know.

 

I think there are lots of links. We know that Nynaeve can sense Egwene thanks to healing, so they have a kind of bond, Lanfear probably has the same bond with LT. Lanfear is a skilled dreamer and can probably use "need". Moridin is linked in dreams to Rand thanks to balefire. The Finns might have done some things to them.

 

I think Cydane is broken enough that she will turn on TDO when Rand frees her, in fact I wouldnt be surprised if Cydane and widow Nynaeve ends up helping Rand with Callandor all dying in the process.

[nolirion]

Regarding Lanfear/Cyndane, the first question is what actually happened. As I see it, there are two possibilities: (1) Lanfear and Rand were drawn to each other's dreams via their mutual hatred, or (2) via Rand's soul-merge with Moridin, Rand accessed Lanfear via her Mindtrap.

 

In support of (1), think back to what happened between Egwene and Gawyn in LoC, followed by this explanation in Chpt 15:

 

Egwene chose her words carefully. And went on with her dressing, casually, in the same white algode blouse and bulky wool skirt the Wise Ones wore. "Is it possible to be pulled into someone's dream against your will?"

 

"Of course not," Amys said, "not unless your touch is all thumbs."

 

But right on top of her, Bair said, "Not unless there is strong emotion involved. If you try to watch the dream of someone who loves or hates you, you can be pulled in. Or if you love or hate them. That last is why we do not dare try to watch Sevanna's dreams, or 'even to speak with the Shaido Wise Ones in their dreams."

 

... ...

 

Egwene stifled curiosity, and amusement. She made her voice ever so offhanded. "What if you don't try to look in?" Melaine gave her a grateful look, and she felt a twinge of guilt. Not enough that she would not ask for the whole story later, though. Anything that made Melaine blush so had to be hilarious.

 

"I heard of such a thing," Bair said, "when I was young and just beginning to learn. Mora, the Wise One of Colrada Hold, trained me, and she said that if the emotion was very strong, love or hate so great it left room for nothing else, you could be drawn in merely by letting yourself be aware of the other's dream."

 

In support of (2), if Rand could access the Moridin's Mindtraps via their connection, it follows that this could lead to dream invasion by Rand to Lanfear. However, I view this less likely than (1) because (1) already has an established precedent.

 

In either case, the question then becomes whether this occurred by mere happenstance, or whether Moridin manipulated events. I personally think this was a totally random and unpredictable event, probably due to their mutual hatred given the precedent introduced by Egwene/Gawyn in Book 6.

 

Despite Lanfear's hatred of Rand, I have to believe she would do anything at this point to get out of the mindtrap. She's already expressed a desire to betray the Dark One with Rand using the CK in earlier books, and that was when she had a high position among the Shadow. Now that she's a virtual slave, she'd only have more incentive to do so. As mentioned before, she could very well have critical knowledge regarding the Bore --- knowledge that LTT never had, unless Beidomon survived and was questioned after the Bore was made.

 

In conclusion, I think this was for real and was not a trap. Lanfear was never particularly loyal to the Dark One, and now has every reason to ditch him altogether. If Rand can break her free of the Mindtrap he may very well have an ally that can provide him with mission-critical information for sealing the Bore. Of course, since at the end of ToM he plans on going to Shayol Ghul the very next day, could this possibly be accomplished in time?... I don't know.

 

I think there are lots of links. We know that Nynaeve can sense Egwene thanks to healing, so they have a kind of bond, Lanfear probably has the same bond with LT. Lanfear is a skilled dreamer and can probably use "need". Moridin is linked in dreams to Rand thanks to balefire. The Finns might have done some things to them.

 

I think Cydane is broken enough that she will turn on TDO when Rand frees her, in fact I wouldnt be surprised if Cydane and widow Nynaeve ends up helping Rand with Callandor all dying in the process.

Iark that will be weird epic thing .

[AutomatedTeller]

For discussion of the Epilogue specifically. So, in line...

 

1. Graendal's in trouble.

2. Perrin realises Noam chose to become a wolf.

3. Olver's seems to be a budding sociopath, and Caemlyn is invaded by Shadowspawn. Talmanes fears the loss of the Dragons.

4. Creepy Red Aiel Dudes.

5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

6. Lan reaches the Gap.

 

3. I dunno if that I read Olver as a sociopath at all. Maybe he just wants to say "My name is Olver Cauthon. You killed my father. Prepare to die." I think it's perfectly legitimate to want revenge at that age, and to come up with a plan to get it.

 

Were this the AoL, that would be one thing - but this is violent time. And, btw, the Shaido ARE BAD GUYS. Is Lan a sociopath?

 

If Olver were sociopathic, he wouldn't be as heartbreakingly sad whenever he looked at the board his dad made.

 

as far as Lan reaching the Gap - I really hope that Brandon is playing timeline games again. if Lan is attacking while Rand, et al, are meeting, he's gonna be toast before they decide what to do...

[Muad Cheade]

So I was skimming the Q&A with BrS on Twitter in which he said, "RJ said there would be no major action in Shara. He was uncertain on Madmen." It might be possible those mysterious people came from the Island of the Madmen.

[AutomatedTeller]

btw - I'm almost certain that Cyndane will return to the Light.

 

Why?

 

Because, at some point in the series, someone said something like this "There is none so deep in the Shadow that he cannot be brought back to the light"

 

And as far as I can tell, absolutely no one has converted from the Dark to the Light so far (Verin doesn't really count, in my opinion).

 

So, someone will, cause you can't mention a loaded gun without it going off at some point.

[nolirion]

btw - I'm almost certain that Cyndane will return to the Light.

 

Why?

 

Because, at some point in the series, someone said something like this "There is none so deep in the Shadow that he cannot be brought back to the light"

 

And as far as I can tell, absolutely no one has converted from the Dark to the Light so far (Verin doesn't really count, in my opinion).

 

So, someone will, cause you can't mention a loaded gun without it going off at some point.

Ingtar

[Tom Sawyer]

btw - I'm almost certain that Cyndane will return to the Light.

 

Why?

 

Because, at some point in the series, someone said something like this "There is none so deep in the Shadow that he cannot be brought back to the light"

 

And as far as I can tell, absolutely no one has converted from the Dark to the Light so far (Verin doesn't really count, in my opinion).

 

So, someone will, cause you can't mention a loaded gun without it going off at some point.

 

I think it goes to the rationale that the person had in turning to the Dark One in the first place. Somebody like Ingtar had what he thought was a noble goal and felt that Shienar existing under the Shadow was the lesser of two evils when compared with useless oblivion from a failed attempt at fighting the Shadow. Turning from the Shadow simply involved him reassessing his priorities and realizing that he'd made a mistake in his judgement and had actually inadvertently chosen the greater of two evils.

 

Someone like Lanfear, however, is a psychotic, power-hungry bitch. There's no innate sense of nobility inside of her to use to reassess her priorities because she is just plain batshit insane. She might turn on the Dark One in the sense of trying to kill him in order to take his place, but not in the sense of finding the Light and wanting to atone for her past sins. She just hasn't been written as someone who contains the characteristics which make her capable of redemption.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I havent read the whole thread, but has anyone thought that the red Aiel could be Aiel that Fain has taken over, like he did to those Trollocs in the Blight?

 

Fain is... getting strange - a portable Mashadar and Zomblie Maker is gonna be interesting.

 

But nowhere does it indicate that Fain has run into any Aiel, and his POV only mentions Trollocs and Fades.

 

BUT WAIT!! THERE'S MORE!!! CALL NOW and we'll double your order! Just pay separate shipping and handling.

 

That's right, folks. Two, count them TWO Fain-o-matics for the price of just one! Be the first on you block to have your very own Portable Mashadar and Zombie Maker!

 

Limited time offer. Only good while quantities last. Void where prohibited. Must be 18 or older to order.

[analyticalkeys]

btw - I'm almost certain that Cyndane will return to the Light.

 

Why?

 

Because, at some point in the series, someone said something like this "There is none so deep in the Shadow that he cannot be brought back to the light"

 

And as far as I can tell, absolutely no one has converted from the Dark to the Light so far (Verin doesn't really count, in my opinion).

 

So, someone will, cause you can't mention a loaded gun without it going off at some point.

 

RJ explicitly stated that NO Forsaken was going to come back to the Light by the end of the series. (I don't know why he said that because that took out the element of wondering... lol)

[seasnake]

 

I think it's going to be Moiraine that links with Rand and Nynaeve to seal the Bore.

 

Well, that's what everybody expects now I guess. It's probably the only reason Moiraine conveniently received a Ter'Angreal that makes her strong even though she's weak now.

That way Sanderson could have a half-assed explanation for Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear and still have Moiraine be decisive.

 

Um, you don't think Robert Jordan left notes about what happened to Moiraine and Lanfear, what they wished for and how they'd get out? How is it Sanderson's work at all, seemed to me like that would have been pretty much decided by the original author.