Discuss The Prophecies

[GB]

Min sees a black hand wielding Callandor... Perrin I think must make Rand a hand...power wrought cuendillar( sorry for spelling)so that Rand can use Callandor on his own in case the women of the circle(Moiraine and Nynaeve) should fall.

 

Doesn't Elaine or Aviendha have a terangreal that makes the wielder invisible to the shadow that looks like a black hand? Or am I remembering that wrong and it's a black something else.

 

i think thats a black knife

 

Nah. It looks like a more or less normal dagger, and has a blade that looks like iron and it's got a dull edge and point.

 

my bad, cheers for clarifying

[FarShainMael]

Re the Broken Wolf, and one of Min's Viewings:

 

In ToM 13, when Rand returns to Tear, Min sees several viewings around him. One is of two dead men on the ground, surrounded by Trollocs.

 

Slayer has been badly injured by Perrin in the nightmare. Might he have made it back 'home', died, and in dying split into Luc and Isam? A Broken Wolf indeed.

[WhiskyJack]

Re the Broken Wolf, and one of Min's Viewings:

 

In ToM 13, when Rand returns to Tear, Min sees several viewings around him. One is of two dead men on the ground, surrounded by Trollocs.

 

Slayer has been badly injured by Perrin in the nightmare. Might he have made it back 'home', died, and in dying split into Luc and Isam? A Broken Wolf indeed.

 

 

Slayer is healthy and happy. He was talking to Graendal after he lost the spike.

[didymos]

Min sees a black hand wielding Callandor... Perrin I think must make Rand a hand...power wrought cuendillar( sorry for spelling)so that Rand can use Callandor on his own in case the women of the circle(Moiraine and Nynaeve) should fall.

 

Doesn't Elaine or Aviendha have a terangreal that makes the wielder invisible to the shadow that looks like a black hand? Or am I remembering that wrong and it's a black something else.

 

i think thats a black knife

 

Nah. It looks like a more or less normal dagger, and has a blade that looks like iron and it's got a dull edge and point.

 

my bad, cheers for clarifying

 

Elayne did find that flexible black rod thing in the stuff from Ebou Dar too. Maybe that's what you were thinking of?

[FarShainMael]

Re the Broken Wolf, and one of Min's Viewings:

 

In ToM 13, when Rand returns to Tear, Min sees several viewings around him. One is of two dead men on the ground, surrounded by Trollocs.

 

Slayer has been badly injured by Perrin in the nightmare. Might he have made it back 'home', died, and in dying split into Luc and Isam? A Broken Wolf indeed.

 

 

Slayer is healthy and happy. He was talking to Graendal after he lost the spike.

 

Ah, that servant was Slayer, then? I missed that. How did he get healed? I can't see Graendal doing it!

[Sharaman]

He knows ways to heal in TAR - read his conversation with Perrin about replacing blood.

Whatever the means, he's learnt it fairly recently since he couldn't apparently do it in TSR.

It is definitely Slayer - Graendal thinks of his uniqueness and his insolence.

[WolfDragonFox]

I don't understand why so many people think that Perrin can't me named twice in the same prophecy by different names.

The dark one is reffered to as: The Greatest One, Great Lord, Him who Will Destroy, and the Lord of the Evening

Rand is reffered to as both First Among Vermin and the Broken Champion.

 

So i don't see why the idea of perrin being the Broken Wolf and the Fallen Blacksmith is so abhorrent to most people.

 

Personally, I don't think the Broken Wolf is Perrin, but there is certainly no reason it can't be him based on the prose.

 

 

Er...Because of the way prophecy is written? Not only putting Perrin's name twice would make him more important than Rand, it will be an useless effort since he is mentioned just before that line. What would be the point of naming him twice back to back? And yes, even if Perrin was not the fallen blacksmith, he still won't be the broken wolf.

 

Broken champion is mentioned in different context..

 

Just because you think its useless to put his name twice since its in the line previous, doesn't make it not Perrin. Go look at the Kaerethon Cycle Prophesy (excuse spelling if wrong) And take a look at the line mentioning Mat. He gets two references in that one:

 

Fortune Rides like the sun on high with the fox that makes the ravens fly. Luck his soul lightning his eye he snatches the moon from out of the sky. Then He and Perrin together for the final part which seems to make them important because THEY ARE. when the wolf king carries the hammer thus are the final days known, when the fox marries the raven and the trumpets of battle are blown.

 

It doesn't make Perrin more important than Rand, it just makes this prophesy more focused to getting him out of the way. Connect it to the fact that Perrin will need to be there to save Rand. This could simply be something that needs to happen for the shadow to prevent whatever Perrin will do to save Rand. So unless you can say who IS the Broken Wolf then you haven't disproven anything just because it doesn't make sense to you.

[FarShainMael]

Right, got that first bit, agreed about the 'uniqueness' especially. I'm afraid I tend to skip over bits with Graendal in, they bore me, and Slayer only slightly less so. I'll evidently have to watch them more closely.

[Cornelia]

What bothers me most about the whole shadow prophecy is that there are a lot of different names in it. They can´t mean the same persons all the time. Let´s see:

 

The One-Eyed Fool: OK, that has to be Mat.

 

The First Among Vermin: Nice new name for Rand. I´m sure he won´t mind, but he could do with less name-calling. :)

 

The last days of the Fallen Blacksmith´s pride shall come: That´s not the fallen blacksmith but his pride what we are talking about. The Fallen Blacksmith may be Perrin, but what is his pride? Faile? His nice new hammer? His Manetheren flag?

 

The Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known: Interesting. `Whom death has known´, not `who has known death´. Who is Death? The answer that immediately pops up is Moridin. So it´s someone who is acquainted with Moridin. I don´t see Perrin as a broken wolf. He is more the Wolf King. So who could it be? My money is on Bashere.

 

Lord of the Evening: The title of LTT was Lord of the Morning. Who could be Lord of the Evening? Moridin, or Elan Morin Tedronai, most likely. I don´t think it´s the DO.

 

The Broken Champion: I don´t think it´s Rand. Because Rand is no longer broken. I think it could be Logain. We know he still has to play a role in the last battle. Didn´t Min See him stepping over Rand´s body to face something or someone?

 

And then the intriguing end of the prophecy... `Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!´

It´s more than likely that it will be the followers of the shadow who will scream and beg for their destruction! *laughs evilly*

 

I also would like to say something about Min finding in the Karaethon cycle: `Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.´

I immediately thought of a reference when I read that. I´m not sure whether I´m translating correctly, especially not in the biblical way it is written: "The Light shines in the Darkness, and the Darkness does not seize it." And then there is the `terrible light´ which made that darkfriend in Maradon go crazy. Without seeing Rand deal with the shadowspawn. What exactly did he see?

[dwn]

Most people are focusing on the names, but there's something just as important to look at:

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy...

 

-- ToM, And After, p.843

 

This puts the middle stanza (?) of the prophecy on a specific day: the day when Rand goes to break the seals. The 'days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride' are about to begin, and the 'Broken Wolf' has yet to fall or be consumed.

 

This prophecy hasn't been fulfilled.

 

-- dwn

[GB]

Most people are focusing on the names, but there's something just as important to look at:

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy...

 

-- ToM, And After, p.843

 

This puts the middle stanza (?) of the prophecy on a specific day: the day when Rand goes to break the seals. The 'days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride' are about to begin, and the 'Broken Wolf' has yet to fall or be consumed.

 

This prophecy hasn't been fulfilled.

 

-- dwn

 

 

i agree with that as well.

 

mat will be in caemlyn when rand breaks the seals, after camelyn gets assaulted, or it could be ebou dar but thats not very likely.

 

olver or talmanes is going to die in camelyn? along with so many others ? and the grand hall in the palace, people will be mourning not only those dead, but those who will facing the shadowspawn, dreadlords on the day.

[Sharaman]

Enter the Ogier!

[crondom]

I know it's fun to theorise, but I really think that some people are over analysing these prophecies, when you look back at the prophecies that have come to pass, or we have information from the books that makes them obvious, you can see that they're always fairly straightforward, references to callandor and the stone of tear, people of the dragon, aviendha and elayne's children, rand losing a hand etc etc.

 

The only reason that the prophecies seem cryptic is because certain events/characters haven't developed, it's never the case that it's a delicate twist on words that refers to a strange context or reference from a different mythology, sure characters are inspired by various mythologies, but it isn't necessary to be versed in them to understand the prophecies when they are revealed.

 

At the moment, considering what we know, analysed with common sense:

 

One-eyed fool (Matt) How anyone could argue this is beyond me, WOT isn't THAT complicated.

 

First among vermin (Rand) Twisted First among servants, he will briefly bring freedom to the dark one.

 

Fallen blacksmith (Perrin) We are unsure about the 'fallen' but there is only one blacksmith in WOT.

 

Broken Wolf (Unknown) V. unlikely to be Perrin as he is mentioned immediately before as a separate entity, possiblly Bashere, Slayer, Itulrude. The event that will make this clear hasn't happened yet.

 

Broken Champion (Unknown) Probably Rand, as this is a dark prophecy and runs on the assumption that the DO wins, reference to spilling blood, and breaking/destroying him would result in the DO winning.

 

Towers of Midnight: Referenced by BS in the glossary as referring to the towers in Seanchan, possibly a metaphor for the Forsaken, unclear link to Broken Wolf.

 

I really do not think it's much more complicated than that, speculation is all very well, but some of these theories are SO convoluted and deep that there's no way they could be.

[Bob T Dwarf]

By the way, any contact of DO (?) and Saidar/Saidin won't automatically result in taint. Only if DO wills it.

 

It's not just simply willing it so:

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not retaint saidin?

 

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

 

Remember also that the Bore was made with a saidin-saidar weave, and neither power was tainted then even though the Sharom was destroyed by the backlash.

 

From the BWB aka The Guide aka TBBoBA ( italics added ):

... It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation. The emanations Mieren and others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered his prison. ...

 

Whether we should parse "his dark energies" as actually being him or some aspect of his aura or something else entirely ... ???

[Hatrel]

I just posted this over on Perrin's Arc and wanted to drop it here as well as it seems to fit pretty well here.

___________

"I keep coming back to the prophesy and that in previous books the prophesy at the end of the book had been fulfilled somewhere in that book.

 

So in thinking about the Broken Wolf, I still feel that the strongest fulfillment of that in this book is Jain. I know that there is not any mention of him being called a wolf that I can think of but consider these things.

 

His spirit was pretty much broken before meeting up with Mat. He was not anything like Jain Farstrider. He was also considered a DF by the Malkieri, and if it was not true, that could have been something that would make him considered broken.

 

And you cannot say that Death has not known him. He was thought to be dead for years. This could make that arguement.

 

And the Finn Towers could be the Towers of Midnight.

 

As to his fall shaking the men and all that, he was Malkieri and they have gathered for the first time in years. I am assuming that when Mat does tell them what happened as he was asked to do, there might be regret and doubt cast upon his DF status, causing them to be fearful and sorrowful and all that.

 

Maybe a bit of a stretch, but it seems to me to be the only plausable explanation from within the book. Itrualde did not fall to the Towers. Nor Perrin or Hopper. So this seems most likely."

___________

I also wanted to note that Lan would not make sense as he is not falling to ToM either. there is a butt-load of trollocs and myrdraal but I do not see anything that might match us with ToM.

[smileyman]

Most people are focusing on the names, but there's something just as important to look at:

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy...

 

-- ToM, And After, p.843

 

This puts the middle stanza (?) of the prophecy on a specific day: the day when Rand goes to break the seals. The 'days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride' are about to begin, and the 'Broken Wolf' has yet to fall or be consumed.

 

 

-- dwn

 

Not necessarily. Prophecy is vague that way. When it says something like "In that day", it can refer to the specific day, or that era. Here's an example from the Bible (don't jump on me for this, but it's a good reference for the Randland prophecies) This is from the King James Version, Zechariah 12:8 "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them."

 

In this context it doesn't make much sense for the defense of his chosen city to only happen on one day, and no other days. Here "In that day" refers to a time frame, i.e. the time when Jeruslaem will be besieged.

 

That's how I first read the Dark Prophecy. I figured it referred to a time period, not an exact day.

[dwn]

Most people are focusing on the names, but there's something just as important to look at:

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy...

 

-- ToM, And After, p.843

 

This puts the middle stanza (?) of the prophecy on a specific day: the day when Rand goes to break the seals. The 'days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride' are about to begin, and the 'Broken Wolf' has yet to fall or be consumed.

 

 

-- dwn

 

Not necessarily. Prophecy is vague that way. When it says something like "In that day", it can refer to the specific day, or that era. Here's an example from the Bible (don't jump on me for this, but it's a good reference for the Randland prophecies) This is from the King James Version, Zechariah 12:8 "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them."

 

In this context it doesn't make much sense for the defense of his chosen city to only happen on one day, and no other days. Here "In that day" refers to a time frame, i.e. the time when Jeruslaem will be besieged.

 

That's how I first read the Dark Prophecy. I figured it referred to a time period, not an exact day.

 

Good argument. Along those lines 'lifts his hand' could easily refer to the build up preceding the breaking of the seals. That being said, I still don't think the prophecy has necessarily been fulfilled, and trying to force the 'Broken Wolf' title onto various and sundry is a bit foolish. Square pegs, round holes and such.

 

I do think Hopper fits the description best so far. He's been 'known' by death, fell as a result of Graendal's plotting, and in so doing certainly brought uncertainty and anguish to the heart of at least one man.

 

-- dwn

[smileyman]

 

I do think Hopper fits the description best so far. He's been 'known' by death, fell as a result of Graendal's plotting, and in so doing certainly brought uncertainty and anguish to the heart of at least one man.

 

-- dwn

 

 

I think it's Mat, because of the Odin archetype. Guess we'll find out in a couple of years.

[didymos]

I do think Hopper fits the description best so far. He's been 'known' by death, fell as a result of Graendal's plotting, and in so doing certainly brought uncertainty and anguish to the heart of at least one man.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, one man. That makes Hopper a horrible fit:

 

And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

There's no point in having explicitly plural terms if it's just Perrin who gets upset. It would have said "Fallen Blacksmith" and "his" if that were the case. And there's zero potential for pretty much anyone besides Perrin being affected by it. Faile sympathized, but it simply wasn't a loss for her. She didn't know Hopper, and neither did anyone else in Perrin's camp. Or anyone anywhere really, excepting only Elyas, and I highly doubt he'll fall apart when or if he learns of it. Perrin's reaction to it doesn't fit the description in the prophecy either. He was indeed sorrowful, but his will was not shaken. He became "cold and furious" and determined to do something, which led straight to his decision to finally lead.

[dwn]

I do think Hopper fits the description best so far. He's been 'known' by death, fell as a result of Graendal's plotting, and in so doing certainly brought uncertainty and anguish to the heart of at least one man.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, one man. That makes Hopper a horrible fit:

 

And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

There's no point in having explicitly plural terms if it's just Perrin who gets upset. It would have said "Fallen Blacksmith" and "his" if that were the case. And there's zero potential for pretty much anyone besides Perrin being affected by it. Faile sympathized, but it simply wasn't a loss for her. She didn't know Hopper, and neither did anyone else in Perrin's camp. Or anyone anywhere really, excepting only Elyas, and I highly doubt he'll fall apart when or if he learns of it. Perrin's reaction to it doesn't fit the description in the prophecy either. He was indeed sorrowful, but his will was not shaken. He became "cold and furious" and determined to do something, which led straight to his decision to finally lead.

 

To be clear, I don't think that part of the prophecy has been fulfilled yet. However, if it has for sake of argument, I think Hopper fits better than some of the others people are trying to pin it to. Perrin is a leader of men, and as a monarch uses the plural form to speak for the crown, so too can 'bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men' imply an effect on Perrin's people through him.

 

-- dwn

[Mr Ares]

Well, I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I think this thread needs to discuss a new prophecy, and I feel like posting something mildly crackpot. So, I present my alternative explanation for Min's Viewing of Perrin's broken crown, from book 1. I surely can't have been the only person to notice this from the Prologue: "he could easily cost Stout a broken leg and himself a broken crown". Yes, I predict that in AMOL, Perrin will suffer some sort of head injury. Possibly one that kills him. Well, we were told he was going to die. The Saldaean crown being called the broken crown is misdirection, I tell you!

[FarShainMael]

Well, I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I think this thread needs to discuss a new prophecy, and I feel like posting something mildly crackpot. So, I present my alternative explanation for Min's Viewing of Perrin's broken crown, from book 1. I surely can't have been the only person to notice this from the Prologue: "he could easily cost Stout a broken leg and himself a broken crown". Yes, I predict that in AMOL, Perrin will suffer some sort of head injury. Possibly one that kills him. Well, we were told he was going to die. The Saldaean crown being called the broken crown is misdirection, I tell you!

 

 

No problem. Faile will sort him out with some vinegar and brown paper.

[Tiinker]

One Eyed Fool - Mat

First Among Vermin - Rand

Him - Dark One (duh)

Fallen Blacksmith - Perrin

Broken Wolf - Lan

Lord of the Evening - Moridin

Broken Champion - Rand

 

There's just so much thought put into these prophecies.. Somehow I doubt Robert Jordan would've made them SO hard to decipher. He would've made them obscure but not to this major degree. I think we're all complicating things :/

[didymos]

I think we're all complicating things :/

 

Welcome to WoT fandom. Well, any fandom, really.

[bloody ashs]

We do over think things somethings and we are probably doing it now, but its so much fun!

Here is my two cents. I don't think Lan is going to die, hence he is not the broken wolf.

This is how it going to go.

Lan and his army are going to charge the gap, but before or in the middle of the mess Rand delivers the borderlanders that are in Far Madding, hence saving Lan neck. Also The white tower might be involved seeing how they abandoned Lan's kingdom in the past and owe Him. But If the latter part does not happen (white tower) then it will happen later.