Discuss The Prophecies

[jwillis7]

First time poster, hoorah.

 

Anyway, in response to the "one eyed fool" and the "first among vermin":

I interpreted this to mean Mat and Perrin. We all know what the wolves think of the Shadow and Shadowspawn; their hate is immense. I assumed that the Shadow thought of wolves as "vermin", because a) wolves hate them b) they're "small" and "unimportant" and "disgusting". The Shadow cares about men, like Rand and the AS, but it would view the wolves as only "vermin".

 

Since Perrin is the ta'veren wolfbrother, I assumed that "first among vermin" meant Perrin, not Rand.

 

However, the "first among vermin"/"First Among Servants" implication for Rand is also convincing... So I'm not sure which to believe.

What do y'all think?

but why call perrin something different twice, if he is first among vermin who is the fallen blacksmith

[Mr. Micawber]

Uh, I should point out that the Broken Wolf needs to have experienced death already.

 

I'm a little confused as to when Perrin got offed.*

 

 

 

 

 

*Now, as for emasculated? I can track that occurrence to the exact WOT date and time. Just open your copy of TDR to the moment he met...well, I think we all know who.

[GB]

regarding Mat walking the hall of mourning

could that be Mat coming back from ToG and walking in a destroyed camelyn where somehow the trollocs were pushed back and killed but still huge number of people died.

 

but first among vermin and broken champion couldnt both be rand? unless maybe broken champion is moridin? though i admit it is far fetched.

[Sventity]

First time poster here. These are my thoughts on the prophecies so far in this discussion. First, from the Prophecy of the Shadow:

 

One-Eyed Fool is obviously Mat, and I believe the towers of mourning are referring to the realm of the Snakes and Foxes, especially considering he did go through several towers while he was there.

 

First Among Vermin has to be Rand since he is the one determined to break the seals, and as Maud pointed out it’s a play on the term “First Among Servants”.

 

Fallen Blacksmith is obviously Perrin, and I believe his pride fell in the epilogue when he finally found balance, coupled with his revelation that it was he, not the wolves who were causing his internal struggle. Once he accepted that fact, his pride was no longer an issue and he was able to accept his place.

 

And finally, the Broken Wolf has got to be Lan. In so many of the previous books he’s been described as just that, a wolf, and his kingdom is broken despite the army he’s raised. Also, he knows Death as he’s been courting it for some time, as was said often in the previous books. His charge has begun, and his fall is inevitable. That will obviously “bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men”. It will also have a great affect on Rand, not to mention Nynaeve, who is seen crying at Shayol Gul in a previous prophecy/viewing.

 

Next, Egwene’s 13 black towers Prophecy:

I agree that it is referencing the Forsaken, though I first thought it was about the Seanchan. After thinking about it and where the series is headed, I figure the Forsaken is more likely. Some postulated the one rising highest could be Moridin or Graendel, but I’m going to throw Lanfear out there as my vote. Graendel has had her time in the spotlight and she has been found lacking. Moridin did fall earlier in the series as Ba’alzamon, but has since risen to new height… however why would Egwene have a Dream about that now?

 

Lanfear/Cyndane has just entered the picture again and will undoubtedly play a major role in the Last Battle, and she has definitely been cast down since her battle with Moiraine. I’m however unsure about how her story will play out. It may be as simple as Moridin releasing her for the Last Battle and her treachery which could usurp him as Nae’blis. Or, perhaps she plays off Rand/LTT in order to kill Moridin so she can take his place. Or perhaps redemption… could the new Rand potentially turn her to the Light (or at least against the Shadow) and she assists with Callandor? Or could that be a ploy so she can wrest it from his hand and Moridin can use it against Rand as in Min’s viewing? So many options for Lanfear’s role and it’s implications in the final book, I’m very curious to see how it plays out.

 

Oh, and who else is convinced that Taim is using a circle of 13 to turn the Asha’man into unwilling followers of the Shadow? *raises hand*

 

edited for formatting

[jwillis7]

so i had a thought, in the dark prophecies it said that the dark one's prison will be as weak as the the limbs of who created it. Now we see Lanfear/cyndane saying that they are breaking her bones over and over again. Does anyone else think that they might think that since she made the bore that if they weaken her bones it will weaken the prison. I dont think prophecies work like this but i'm not moridin and he might try and make it happen.

[yakaji]

I'm a little surprised no one has floated the idea that "First Among Vermin" could refer to a darkfriend / forsaken.

 

I found the dark prophecy to be a very interesting read, especially because of how much it seems to spring from the thought process of the Shadow. I mean, the final lines of the prophecy are anything but happy:

 

Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

 

We've seen darkfriend interactions before, and even direct interactions with the Dark One. Darkfriends seem to be very fond of calling each other "worms" and "vermin" and such. We have a clear title parallel between "Lord of the Morning" and "Lord of the Evening", and I think it's conceivable that "First Among Vermin" may be a similar parallel to (rather than callback to) "First Among Servants". I'm not necessarily saying I'd cling to this viewpoint - I think the case for Rand is decently compelling, too, especially when I feel like I understand so little of what was said, but I think Moridin might be just as reasonable a possibility.

 

----------------------------------------

 

Anyway, here's my rundown on the names and what I think they refer to:

 

Greatest One - Do we really need to ask?

 

One-Eyed Fool - My money's on our only one-eyed main character.

 

First Among Vermin - Either Rand or whoever holds the title of Nae'blis (as above)

 

Him who will Destroy - I'm not convinced this refers to the DO, since it sounds a bit weak after "Greatest One". But I can't think of a lot of other beings in need of freedom. If there's a callback thing going on with names, though, I'll float the possibility that this could be a shadow Aiel leader a la "He who x'es" construction. UPDATE: On further thought, if FAV is Nae'blis, this is probably Shaidar Haran (who has been looking for some freedom since about ACoS).

 

Fallen Blacksmith - It's the guy from Tear in TDR! I swear!

 

Broken Wolf - I feel increasingly confident this ISN'T Perrin, though I don't know that I endorse any of the ideas that have been put forward yet. Lan certainly knows Death, and his destruction would bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, but not much Broken Wolf to him (2/3). Perrin also gets (2/3) since I don't think there's a good way to get "Knows Death" for him. Elyas might fit the Broken Wolf and Death, maybe, but I don't know that many people would care if he died. Hopper's a total unknown to most people, though he fits BW&D perfectly. It's also worth noting that this person is supposed to be consumed by the Midnight Towers, which probably means death at the hands of the Forsaken (cf. Egwene's dream), which was probably the reason for Graendal's outburst at reading the prophecy. All in all, I don't feel like there are a lot of conclusive answers here. Do we know if anyone else is associated with wolves - not necessarily as a wolfbrother, but potentially just through house or national symbols?

 

Lord of the Evening - The Champion of Evil. This has to be one of the following: Nae'blis, Shaidar Haran, !Fain, or a heretofore unseen avatar of the DO. Nae'blis and Shaidar Haran both seem unlikely to me, since there's a clear worshipfulness to the passage and worship doesn't seem to be accorded either of those two. An avatar'ed up DO sounds appealing, but the things the LotE is described as doing sound suspiciously like !Fain (or more technically Mashadar or Machin Shin), and I've always had a nagging suspicion that Fain is less Gollum and more Secret Final Boss of the Third Age.

 

Broken Champion - Rand Sedai

[TheTuninator]

Do we really know that Perrin is the Fallen Blacksmith? He IS the only prominent blacksmith character, but at the same time, the adjective "fallen" really makes no sense when applied to him.

 

I think Lan could be the Broken Wolf, but his death really wouldn't be a huge cause for despair, would it? All the men with him KNOW they are riding to their deaths, and his death, and they don't seem to care overmuch. Plus, it seems too obvious that he will die, especially with the vision cited earlier. I'm expecting a surprise on this one.

[analyticalkeys]

Do we really know that Perrin is the Fallen Blacksmith? He IS the only prominent blacksmith character, but at the same time, the adjective "fallen" really makes no sense when applied to him.

 

It does make sense. He used to be a blacksmith, and now he's a lord.. so he's fallen from being a blacksmith.

[AutomatedTeller]

Rand is First Among Vermin, since it says "lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy"

Him who will Destroy has to be the Dark One.

One-Eyed Fool is, obviously, Mat.

Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin.

 

If there's any doubt of these, remember that these three are all tied together, so it makes sense that they should be tied together in the prophecy.

 

I guess the Broken Wolf is Lan. I can't think of anyone else it could be. Killing off Lan would be a great way to up the tension - Verin was liked, but she was black ajah. Lan, though... man was a freaking saint. I sort of assume that Slayer will kill Lan - he's been wanting to for some time.

[TheTuninator]

Do we really know that Perrin is the Fallen Blacksmith? He IS the only prominent blacksmith character, but at the same time, the adjective "fallen" really makes no sense when applied to him.

 

It does make sense. He used to be a blacksmith, and now he's a lord.. so he's fallen from being a blacksmith.

 

But he still is a blacksmith, he's been one the whole time. More so now than ever with the forging of the Power-wrought weapon. Plus, the adjective "fallen" makes no sense when applied to a transition from blacksmith to noble and leader of men. It implies a drop in status or power, when in fact the complete opposite has occurred.

 

Think about it; the wording makes no sense.

[Michelleharper]

Graendal called Perrin the Fallen Blacksmith, so that pretty much seals that deal. We know the Forsaken aren't going to use an "light" terms. As to why they named him the Fallen Blacksmith? Who knows. I'm not about to try to think like a darkfriend/Forsaken. Bad juju.

 

I'm so glad someone else thinks Lan is the Broken Wolf. When you think about what has happened to him and what is about to happen, it makes the most sense. There are several instances where Lan is referenced in the same sentence as death...the courting death like other men court lovers...and the time with Myrelle and looking into his eyes and seeing death...yadda yadda, I said this in some earlier thread... anyway... The shadow prophecy talks about the Broken Wolf being consumed by the Midnight Towers...which I believe are the watch towers all along the blight border that are now overrun with the Shadow. Lan has also been compared to a lone wolf.

 

Isn't it disturbing that the book is closed with a Prophecy from the Shadow? It looks like the good guys might have a chance until you read about Lan and the Malkieri in Tarwin's Gap and then BOOM, a Dark Prophecy. Way to set the mood up to sinister. Open up the speculation... *sigh*

[TheTuninator]

I know that they call Perrin the Fallen Blacksmith, but that's from their interpretation of the prophecy. It is possible, however remotely, that they could misinterpret it.

 

It's quite possible that he is, the wording just really doesn't make sense to me at all, even in the vague context of a prophecy.

[Jaelan]

Do we know if anyone else is associated with wolves - not necessarily as a wolfbrother, but potentially just through house or national symbols?

 

Bashere carries something with a wolf in it, I think it's his sword pommel. And we know he's associated with the 'Broken Crown'. My money is on Bashere being the Broken Wolf. Of course, I believe 'Death' refers to Moridin (since death is capitalized in the prophecy). This implies interesting things if Moridin knows Bashere.

[Cyf]

I think people are really over-thinking the Remnant of a Remnant thing. It never says that there will be uber-few, just that a remnant of a remnant will be saved.

 

Remnant #1: Those who do not fall to the bleakness.

Remnant #2: Those who survive the Last Battle.

 

Remnant of a Remnant.

 

Doesn't necessarily mean few. That's how the Wise Ones interpreted it, but hey, Prophecies aren't exactly easy to interpret.

[Kahlika]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Rodel Ituralde is known as "the Wolf". He's a soldier, has known death on battlefields etc, or knowing Death could be some sort of reference to an encounter with Moridin. The loss of one of the great captains would bring fear and sorrow, much moreso than the loss of the other potential people it could be referring to.

 

The one eyed fool is clearly Mat, although who will he be mourning? Someone close to him is likely to die in the attack on Caemlyn perhaps, could be Olver or Talmanes, really guessing there though.

 

First among vermin has to be Rand, I really don't see how anyone could read anything else out of that one. Aside from LTT being First Among Servants Rand is also the Champion of the Light, the leader of those who are at war with the Shadow etc. The prophecy mentions him lifting a 'hand', not hands, it refers to the first among vermin bringing freedom to 'Him Who will Destroy' i.e. the DO, and we know Rand intends to break the seals.

[Tsnake]

Rand is First Among Vermin, since it says "lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy"

Him who will Destroy has to be the Dark One.

One-Eyed Fool is, obviously, Mat.

Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin.

 

If there's any doubt of these, remember that these three are all tied together, so it makes sense that they should be tied together in the prophecy.

 

I guess the Broken Wolf is Lan. I can't think of anyone else it could be. Killing off Lan would be a great way to up the tension - Verin was liked, but she was black ajah. Lan, though... man was a freaking saint. I sort of assume that Slayer will kill Lan - he's been wanting to for some time.

 

I think the Broken Wolf is Iturlde.

[smileyman]

I guess the Broken Wolf is Lan. I can't think of anyone else it could be. Killing off Lan would be a great way to up the tension - Verin was liked, but she was black ajah. Lan, though... man was a freaking saint. I sort of assume that Slayer will kill Lan - he's been wanting to for some time.

 

It's Mat. No doubt in my mind, especially given that he's an Odin archetype (especially now that he's only got the one-eye) and Odin has always been associated with wolves.

 

It can't be Lan--Lan's sign is the Golden Crane and the only time Lan's ever been associated with wolves it's been in describing his deadliness and grace. I guess it could be Itulrade but why mention him with the other three ta'veren? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Nelal Hurcran]

Rand is First Among Vermin, since it says "lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy"

Him who will Destroy has to be the Dark One.

One-Eyed Fool is, obviously, Mat.

Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin.

 

If there's any doubt of these, remember that these three are all tied together, so it makes sense that they should be tied together in the prophecy.

 

I guess the Broken Wolf is Lan. I can't think of anyone else it could be. Killing off Lan would be a great way to up the tension - Verin was liked, but she was black ajah. Lan, though... man was a freaking saint. I sort of assume that Slayer will kill Lan - he's been wanting to for some time.

 

I think the Broken Wolf is Iturlde.

 

I think that Ituralde could be the Broken Wolf, but probably isn't.

 

Also, I'm surprised nobody has theorized that Fortuona (or the entire Seanchan Empire) could be the "First Among Vermin." Ravens are vermin, and ravens are the symbol of the Seanchan Empire. It could also refer to Mat as he is/was Prince of the Ravens (first among ravens/vermin).

 

Still, I do think the First Among Vermin is likely Rand, but we can't forget the Seanchan.

 

Finally, let's all not forget that the Dark Prophecy hasn't actually been fulfilled yet. It should be assumed that Perrin (the Broken Wolf and/or Fallen Blacksmith) will die and/or "know Death" ON THE DAY that Rand breaks the seals.

 

That day hasn't come yet.

[jemron]

Rand is First Among Vermin, since it says "lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy"

Him who will Destroy has to be the Dark One.

One-Eyed Fool is, obviously, Mat.

Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin.

 

If there's any doubt of these, remember that these three are all tied together, so it makes sense that they should be tied together in the prophecy.

 

I guess the Broken Wolf is Lan. I can't think of anyone else it could be. Killing off Lan would be a great way to up the tension - Verin was liked, but she was black ajah. Lan, though... man was a freaking saint. I sort of assume that Slayer will kill Lan - he's been wanting to for some time.

 

I think the Broken Wolf is Iturlde.

 

I think that Ituralde could be the Broken Wolf, but probably isn't.

 

Also, I'm surprised nobody has theorized that Fortuona (or the entire Seanchan Empire) could be the "First Among Vermin." Ravens are vermin, and ravens are the symbol of the Seanchan Empire. It could also refer to Mat as he is/was Prince of the Ravens (first among ravens/vermin).

 

Still, I do think the First Among Vermin is likely Rand, but we can't forget the Seanchan.

 

Finally, let's all not forget that the Dark Prophecy hasn't actually been fulfilled yet. It should be assumed that Perrin (the Broken Wolf and/or Fallen Blacksmith) will die and/or "know Death" ON THE DAY that Rand breaks the seals.

 

That day hasn't come yet.

 

Whoops! That above post was actually me. I didn't realize that I was still logged in on my computer under Spencer's (from the 4th Age Podcast) account! Sorry Spencer!

 

He used my computer for the midnight release party last week, and I guess he never logged out.

[Luckers]

I reguard the Broken Wolf as Hopper--a wolf that has known death, consumed by the plans of Graendal.

 

But I have a new theory. What if "Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground—but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all." doesn't refer to Moridin at all? What if it's Graendal? After all she is the one that cracks and falls almost to the ground in ToM. She also was the greatest rival Moridin has. If she recovers herself, she could well grow tallest of all.

 

Thoughts?

[Sventity]

I reguard the Broken Wolf as Hopper--a wolf that has known death, consumed by the plans of Graendal.

 

But I have a new theory. What if "Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground—but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all." doesn't refer to Moridin at all? What if it's Graendal? After all she is the one that cracks and falls almost to the ground in ToM. She also was the greatest rival Moridin has. If she recovers herself, she could well grow tallest of all.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm thinking that is one of 3 possibilities regarding the tower vision. If it's referring to something that's already happened, then it's probably talking about Ba'alzamon and his climb to Nae'blis as Moridin. If it's referring to something in the future, then it cold be Graendal if she can be redeemed, but I honestly think her time in the narrative is played out.

 

My thought is that the "other" who is getting a shot is Lanfear/Cyndane, and she will be the one to climb tallest of all as she seems to have the greatest connection to Rand/LTT that we've seen aside from Moridin. Couple that with her sudden reemergence in the epilogue and I have a feeling she will have a huge role to play in the final entry of the series. I suppose it could also be Demandred since his part has yet to be revealed, but without some amazing reveal with a huge payoff, I would be upset if he ended up being the big baddie when it's all done for the Forsaken.

[FarShainMael]

I'd also go for it being CynFear.

 

On another note..

And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

Could the second time be Perrin's Wolfdream trip to Dragonmount when Rand is up there with the CK (Ch30)? Was it Perrin's ta'veren presence that triggered Rand's epiphany?

 

And:

She's strapped to a block as a headsman swings. Somewhere, someone is running and if they run fast enough the axe will stop.

Does this refer to Gawyn hurrying back from Caemlyn and rescuing her from the Bloodknives (Ch37)?

[Duskfire]

I reguard the Broken Wolf as Hopper--a wolf that has known death, consumed by the plans of Graendal.

 

But I have a new theory. What if "Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground—but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all." doesn't refer to Moridin at all? What if it's Graendal? After all she is the one that cracks and falls almost to the ground in ToM. She also was the greatest rival Moridin has. If she recovers herself, she could well grow tallest of all.

 

Thoughts?

 

How is she Moridins greatest rival? If she was considered that much of a rival I doubt he would have placed TP in her hands. Demandred would be his biggest rival; he is basically Lews Therin, but slightly less badass.

 

Anyway, I personally believe the Broken Wolf is Lan. Out of the three ta`veren, he is the only other main character whos death would be a shock to the system to all. Everyone knows who he is, and the Borderlanders always have a hope that Malkier will be reclaimed one day with Lan running around. With him dead though, it'll be a huge loss to the Light side. He knows death as well, has been surrounded by it his entire life, is hounded by it and sometimes rushes off to embrace it. Lan is a one of a kind; he is a symbol of the fight against the Shadow, whether he admits it or not. Rodel is a great captain and all, and I am sure his death would be sad, but I cant see it doing that much emotional impact.

[Luckers]

How is she Moridins greatest rival? If she was considered that much of a rival I doubt he would have placed TP in her hands. Demandred would be his biggest rival; he is basically Lews Therin, but slightly less badass.

 

Who spoke of her being 'considered' a rival by Moridin? I'm not sure I agree with your point anyway, but the reason she is Moridin's greatest potential rival is simple: she stood stood the next highest amongst the Chosen. Add that to the fact that she did crash near to the ground in ToM and Egwene's dream has great resonance.

[rambling]

Here are my thoughts on some of the prophecies. I posted these on Theoryland yesterday but I'd love to know what you guys think.

 

First, to set the scene -

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

For the second half of the prophecy I assume Rand and Moridin need to join in some fashion, more so than they are at the moment. The technicalities of how and when are a whole separate discussion and I won't go there now.

 

For the first half - "Moridin was gathering the Great Lord's forces for the Last Battle, and his war preparations left him with very little time for the south - though his two minions, Cyndane and Moghedien, occasionaly showed their faces there" -TGS Prologue

This implies the south is all of Randland, north could be the Blight upwards, east is Seanchan, west would be Shara.

 

SO

The north and the east must be as one (the Blight and north and Shara)

Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

nothing more needs to be said there

 

The west and south must be as one (Randland and Seanchan)

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning,

There are no capitals in the 'halls' or 'mourning' which suggests to me that this is not at an actual place. Mat is mourning, someone or maybe lots of people have died.

and the First Among Vermin

Vermin implies a lack of respect so I don't think this can be Rand, the DO may hate him but there is respect there. The definition of vermin is an unpleasant, obnoxious, or dangerous person, it also implies expendible. For lack of a better candidate I'll say Fain.

lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy,

He may well have his own reasons for doing something to 'free' the DO. Maybe, unwittingly, he'll be involved with the braking of the seals - that would justify his presence here.

the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come.

Perrin, his pride could be the wolves

Yea, and the Broken Wolf,

there are quite a few candidates but I'm not convinced by any of them yet

the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers.

Moridin is Death, Midnight Towers are in Seanchan of course.

And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

the fear and sorrow could just as easily refer to the defeated side as the winners, depending on the circumstances.

At the moment I like the idea of the Broken Wolf being the 'murderer' on the Crystal Throne with Tuon causing fear and sorrow whilst re-taking the Throne, but of course that is pure speculation.

 

The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die.

And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come.

If Rand is now the Lord of the Morning then surely the Lord of the Evening is Moridin

And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him,

and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him,

and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise.

And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion,

Rand is not as one with Moridin, he is not whole, he is the Broken Champion

and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful.

Who's blood? This line works equally well for either but we assume it's Rand because we have this from TGH ch.26

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

Dragon's blood hits the rocks and everything goes dark, but, at some point before the blood spilling Rand had stopped being 'Broken'

Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

Why would they beg for their destruction? They'd been promised an eternity of rule and power under the DO. They beg because dawn comes again and 'the Darkness so beautiful' is not what they thought it to be.

The DO has lost again