The Black Tower

[Elan Tedronai]

It really troubles me that Rand has left Black Tower unattended to for this long. It should be his priority.

 

I mean damn, those dudes are freaking killing machines, probably more efficient at destroying Trollocs/Forsaken/Black Ajah/Darkfriends than ALL the other armies combined. There's what, thousand channeling males at BT?

 

One would think Rand would check on that place first. If they turn against him, his armies don't really have anything to counter them with. Aes Sedai are weaker than asha'man, and they would stand no chance in duel against them. Asha'man are trained to kill and destroy, that's something Aes Sedai mostly aren't.

 

 

So it really makes no sense to me that Rand wouldn't make that place his priority. His armies are pretty much Asha'man dependant. They travel and win because of them, even with only few of them. But still he leaves hundreds of them just sit around without bothering to check on them. Oh yeah, he sent one dude in disguise. GG. Like that's gonna help.

 

 

that's the thing i can't understand. rand feels the need to go around the world making plans for this and that and yet he ignores the boiling pot of the black tower.

 

what's interesting here is that rand has never been to the black tower since book 6. book freakin six. and as a result is it any suprise that most ashaman are loyal to taim. and what's even more suprising is that when logain tells him that things are going bad, he disregards it casually.

 

As a result you have ashaman and aes sedai alike getting turned. what the hell is rand doing i have no idea. But i actually think all this is just a set up by the authors delibrately. a slow build up leading to huge crescendo and the fulfilment of elaida's fortelling of 'black tower rent in fire and blood'

 

it's just a build up to this point by RJ and BS. because a normal leader would'nt simply allow what's going around in the balck tower unchecked

[gary0044187]

Lux lo Vult!

[blazetheearth]

that's the thing i can't understand. rand feels the need to go around the world making plans for this and that and yet he ignores the boiling pot of the black tower.

 

what's interesting here is that rand has never been to the black tower since book 6. book freakin six. and as a result is it any suprise that most ashaman are loyal to taim. and what's even more suprising is that when logain tells him that things are going bad, he disregards it casually.

 

As a result you have ashaman and aes sedai alike getting turned. what the hell is rand doing i have no idea. But i actually think all this is just a set up by the authors delibrately. a slow build up leading to huge crescendo and the fulfilment of elaida's fortelling of 'black tower rent in fire and blood'

 

it's just a build up to this point by RJ and BS. because a normal leader would'nt simply allow what's going around in the balck tower unchecked

 

Rand is not a "normal leader", he's insane. Trying to apply any reasonable logic to insanity could be called a form of insanity itself. By the time Logain shows up, Rand is listening to 'LTT' more often and with more trust than he shows many "real" people. At least he's not having his troops cut down and bury oak trees because the were staring at him. Ignoring the BT for the time he did so, actually makes sense though, from his insane PoV. He doesn't go to the BT after LoC true, but in book 8 he gets attacked by 1/2 of the AM he took with him. He then spends his time in hiding until he can face them on level ground (Far Madding). Taim has not been in a position of strength which would have allowed him to defy Rand outright, so as far as Rand sees the AM had been loyal to him (attack on Seanchan, killing Sammael, etc), by the time Logain shows up Rand is hiding and already knows that at least some of the AM are against him, but his strength is not such that he could go to the BT and face Taim's SS especially since he could not channel without getting sick, and he was worried about LTT taking the OP from him (like he did do after Logain showed up. We know that Rand should have paid closer attention to the BT, but especially given his madness, Rand did not know, and he had reason to not go even after he did find out about what was going on there.

[Muad Cheade]

It really troubles me that Rand has left Black Tower unattended to for this long. It should be his priority.

 

I mean damn, those dudes are freaking killing machines, probably more efficient at destroying Trollocs/Forsaken/Black Ajah/Darkfriends than ALL the other armies combined. There's what, thousand channeling males at BT?

 

One would think Rand would check on that place first. If they turn against him, his armies don't really have anything to counter them with. Aes Sedai are weaker than asha'man, and they would stand no chance in duel against them. Asha'man are trained to kill and destroy, that's something Aes Sedai mostly aren't.

 

 

So it really makes no sense to me that Rand wouldn't make that place his priority. His armies are pretty much Asha'man dependant. They travel and win because of them, even with only few of them. But still he leaves hundreds of them just sit around without bothering to check on them. Oh yeah, he sent one dude in disguise. GG. Like that's gonna help.

 

 

that's the thing i can't understand. rand feels the need to go around the world making plans for this and that and yet he ignores the boiling pot of the black tower.

 

what's interesting here is that rand has never been to the black tower since book 6. book freakin six. and as a result is it any suprise that most ashaman are loyal to taim. and what's even more suprising is that when logain tells him that things are going bad, he disregards it casually.

 

As a result you have ashaman and aes sedai alike getting turned. what the hell is rand doing i have no idea. But i actually think all this is just a set up by the authors delibrately. a slow build up leading to huge crescendo and the fulfilment of elaida's fortelling of 'black tower rent in fire and blood'

 

it's just a build up to this point by RJ and BS. because a normal leader would'nt simply allow what's going around in the balck tower unchecked

 

The Asha'man are weapons. Simply weapons. Atleast they were before Rand's epiphany.

 

If you tell a blacksmith to build you dozens of swords, you do not constantly look over the blacksmith's shoulder to make sure he does the job. You simply test them as they are made.

 

It's delegation. Rand cannot run the Black Tower, rule Cairhien, Tear and Illian and prepare for Tarmon Gai'din. He needs subordinates. Rand didn't check on Bashere when he was creating the Legion of the Dragon. He trusted the man to do his job and when the weapons were ready he used them.

[andrewatk]

It really troubles me that Rand has left Black Tower unattended to for this long. It should be his priority.

 

I mean damn, those dudes are freaking killing machines, probably more efficient at destroying Trollocs/Forsaken/Black Ajah/Darkfriends than ALL the other armies combined. There's what, thousand channeling males at BT?

 

One would think Rand would check on that place first. If they turn against him, his armies don't really have anything to counter them with. Aes Sedai are weaker than asha'man, and they would stand no chance in duel against them. Asha'man are trained to kill and destroy, that's something Aes Sedai mostly aren't.

 

 

So it really makes no sense to me that Rand wouldn't make that place his priority. His armies are pretty much Asha'man dependant. They travel and win because of them, even with only few of them. But still he leaves hundreds of them just sit around without bothering to check on them. Oh yeah, he sent one dude in disguise. GG. Like that's gonna help.

 

 

that's the thing i can't understand. rand feels the need to go around the world making plans for this and that and yet he ignores the boiling pot of the black tower.

 

what's interesting here is that rand has never been to the black tower since book 6. book freakin six. and as a result is it any suprise that most ashaman are loyal to taim. and what's even more suprising is that when logain tells him that things are going bad, he disregards it casually.

 

As a result you have ashaman and aes sedai alike getting turned. what the hell is rand doing i have no idea. But i actually think all this is just a set up by the authors delibrately. a slow build up leading to huge crescendo and the fulfilment of elaida's fortelling of 'black tower rent in fire and blood'

 

it's just a build up to this point by RJ and BS. because a normal leader would'nt simply allow what's going around in the balck tower unchecked

 

The Asha'man are weapons. Simply weapons. Atleast they were before Rand's epiphany.

 

If you tell a blacksmith to build you dozens of swords, you do not constantly look over the blacksmith's shoulder to make sure he does the job. You simply test them as they are made.

 

It's delegation. Rand cannot run the Black Tower, rule Cairhien, Tear and Illian and prepare for Tarmon Gai'din. He needs subordinates. Rand didn't check on Bashere when he was creating the Legion of the Dragon. He trusted the man to do his job and when the weapons were ready he used them.

 

Good point. I don't recall that FDR or Truman ever showed up at Los Alamos.

[Ananta]

 

 

The Asha'man are weapons. Simply weapons. Atleast they were before Rand's epiphany.

 

If you tell a blacksmith to build you dozens of swords, you do not constantly look over the blacksmith's shoulder to make sure he does the job. You simply test them as they are made.

 

It's delegation. Rand cannot run the Black Tower, rule Cairhien, Tear and Illian and prepare for Tarmon Gai'din. He needs subordinates. Rand didn't check on Bashere when he was creating the Legion of the Dragon. He trusted the man to do his job and when the weapons were ready he used them.

You can't really compare Black Tower to Cairhien, Tear and Illian. When Cairhien, Tear and Illian are Swords, Black Tower is a Nuke.

 

 

Anyhow, I understand him not running over there every 10 minutes to check how things are going, but I don't understand him leaving it almost completely unattended to (I hardly count sending 1 guy in disguise attending to, especially when he knows he can't travel there, thus something might stop him from ever returning with a report).

 

You don't leave your nukes unchecked. Especially when people have implied that it might explode right into your own face.

[David Selig]

FDR didn't leave the Manhattan project under the control of a guy with a shady past he met 15 minutes ago, like Rand did with Taim and the BT. And I am sure he was checking up on the project way more often and closely than Rand has been doing on the BT.

 

Rand left the most effective military force in Randland under the complete control of a person he has no reasons to trust and plenty of reasons to suspect he's betraying him. This is really irresponsible behaviour and by far the biggest mistake he's made so far. Even though 4 of Taim's top men got together and attempted to kill Rand, he did nothing to investigate how are the things in the BT. Later Logain told him things are really fishy in the BT and Taim was doing whatever he wanted, and again Rand did nothing. Finally in ToM he sent one guy to check out on what's going on, but plenty of damage has been done already.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

As for the Black Tower. I believe that we can deduce some educated guesses based on the historical structures that it was taken from. Taim will enter the fight with 12 lieutenants who will each have underlings. His ambition will be to supplant Al'Thor and rule most of his Empire before the Wheel finally collapses in on itself with the full release of the Dark One. I am guessing 12 since that number was significant to the heads of the SS and RJ being well versed in military history seems to base the entire conduct, storyline and mannerism of the Black Tower/Ashamen heavily on the history of the SS/Waffen SS.

 

The organization Mazrim Taim built up from the motley crew of stragglers Rand provided him reminds one almost unequivocally, as of Winter's heart, of the SS. Both wear black uniforms and the ranks in the organization are unambiguous in their origin. E.g attack leader or storm leader. SS stands for Schutzstaffel (Guardian Group) and was originally created to protect Hitler. Asha'man is also said to mean Guardians, and one of their functions is (nominally) to protect Rand and to serve as his personal army. Also the Black Tower bears a resemblance to the "Waffen SS" in that it accepts volunteers from all nations provided they fulfill the specifications to form a multi-nation army united under one banner and ideology. A less striking resemblance is that like some divisions of the SS, the Black Tower is undoubtedly the elite of Al'Thors army. Also Taims position as a bureaucrat running a para-military organization under the command of a "Leader" can signify Taim as being the equivalent of Heinrich Himmler who was also purported to have turned on Hitler in the war, hence leading Hitler to sign his death sentence in the waning days of the war.

[blazetheearth]

As for the Black Tower. I believe that we can deduce some educated guesses based on the historical structures that it was taken from. Taim will enter the fight with 12 lieutenants who will each have underlings. His ambition will be to supplant Al'Thor and rule most of his Empire before the Wheel finally collapses in on itself with the full release of the Dark One. I am guessing 12 since that number was significant to the heads of the SS and RJ being well versed in military history seems to base the entire conduct, storyline and mannerism of the Black Tower/Ashamen heavily on the history of the SS/Waffen SS.

 

The organization Mazrim Taim built up from the motley crew of stragglers Rand provided him reminds one almost unequivocally, as of Winter's heart, of the SS. Both wear black uniforms and the ranks in the organization are unambiguous in their origin. E.g attack leader or storm leader. SS stands for Schutzstaffel (Guardian Group) and was originally created to protect Hitler. Asha'man is also said to mean Guardians, and one of their functions is (nominally) to protect Rand and to serve as his personal army. Also the Black Tower bears a resemblance to the "Waffen SS" in that it accepts volunteers from all nations provided they fulfill the specifications to form a multi-nation army united under one banner and ideology. A less striking resemblance is that like some divisions of the SS, the Black Tower is undoubtedly the elite of Al'Thors army. Also Taims position as a bureaucrat running a para-military organization under the command of a "Leader" can signify Taim as being the equivalent of Heinrich Himmler who was also purported to have turned on Hitler in the war, hence leading Hitler to sign his death sentence in the waning days of the war.

 

Thank you for providing the historical backing for my references for me naming Taim's 'favorites' as Taim's SS.

[Ananta]

As for the Black Tower. I believe that we can deduce some educated guesses based on the historical structures that it was taken from. Taim will enter the fight with 12 lieutenants who will each have underlings. His ambition will be to supplant Al'Thor and rule most of his Empire before the Wheel finally collapses in on itself with the full release of the Dark One. I am guessing 12 since that number was significant to the heads of the SS and RJ being well versed in military history seems to base the entire conduct, storyline and mannerism of the Black Tower/Ashamen heavily on the history of the SS/Waffen SS.

 

The organization Mazrim Taim built up from the motley crew of stragglers Rand provided him reminds one almost unequivocally, as of Winter's heart, of the SS. Both wear black uniforms and the ranks in the organization are unambiguous in their origin. E.g attack leader or storm leader. SS stands for Schutzstaffel (Guardian Group) and was originally created to protect Hitler. Asha'man is also said to mean Guardians, and one of their functions is (nominally) to protect Rand and to serve as his personal army. Also the Black Tower bears a resemblance to the "Waffen SS" in that it accepts volunteers from all nations provided they fulfill the specifications to form a multi-nation army united under one banner and ideology. A less striking resemblance is that like some divisions of the SS, the Black Tower is undoubtedly the elite of Al'Thors army. Also Taims position as a bureaucrat running a para-military organization under the command of a "Leader" can signify Taim as being the equivalent of Heinrich Himmler who was also purported to have turned on Hitler in the war, hence leading Hitler to sign his death sentence in the waning days of the war.

 

Excellent post. Never noticed those connections (though I'm rather new to WoT, started reading them about a year ago, so if this is some old theory found out ages ago, then that's the reason for my ignorance on this matter). Seems a bit too fitting to just be coincidence...

[Rcurran]

The SS accepted volunteers from all nations...?

[Mr Ares]

The SS accepted volunteers from all nations...?

By the end of the war, the Waffen SS was primarily made up of people of non-German ethnicity. So, yes, more or less.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The SS accepted volunteers from all nations...?

 

 

Yes. The Waffen SS was the largest multinational volunteer army to have existed. The majority of the Waffen SS was non-German (60%), even less is German if you discount Austrians or ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe.One of the most elite Waffen SS units, the SS division Wiking, was composed entirely out of volunteers from Scandinavia, Finland, Estonia, The Netherlands, and Belgium.

 

The Waffen SS had a few entirely German divisions, but the truth of the matter is that a large bulk of the fighters were composed of volunteers/recruits from France, Belgium, Netherlands, Finland, Sweden, Crimea, Caucasus, Ukrainians from Galicia, Cossacks, Bosnians, Croatians, Kosovars, Turkics, Albanians, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Slovaks, Hungarians etc.. A good example would be the 11th SS Nordland, despite most volunteers hailing from Scandinavia, the Nordland carried the widest range of nationalities found in any single division. Throughout the war, Danish, Hungarian, Dutch, Norwegian, Finnish, French, Romanian, Spanish, Swedish, Swiss and British volunteers and Estonian conscripts had either served in the division or been attached to it.

 

 

Getting kind of off-topic though. Nonetheless, RJ seems to have heavily based the Ashamen off of the Waffen SS. From their uniform, to their mission, to their ranks, to their status as a personal army for a totalitarian conquering dictator, etc..

[Elan Tedronai]

FDR didn't leave the Manhattan project under the control of a guy with a shady past he met 15 minutes ago, like Rand did with Taim and the BT. And I am sure he was checking up on the project way more often and closely than Rand has been doing on the BT.

 

Rand left the most effective military force in Randland under the complete control of a person he has no reasons to trust and plenty of reasons to suspect he's betraying him. This is really irresponsible behaviour and by far the biggest mistake he's made so far. Even though 4 of Taim's top men got together and attempted to kill Rand, he did nothing to investigate how are the things in the BT. Later Logain told him things are really fishy in the BT and Taim was doing whatever he wanted, and again Rand did nothing. Finally in ToM he sent one guy to check out on what's going on, but plenty of damage has been done already.

 

 

to be fair i think it's just the authors playing up a huge battle between the baddies and the goodies at the BT. No leader is dumb enough to leave his most powerful force at someone's hands without periodically checking up on them. Especially at the hands of a man with questionable motives.

[Rcurran]

Thanks for interesting info and I suppose every country has nut jobs who'd volunteer for a mad army, British in the SS isn't something you hear about a lot so that's good to know.

 

Interesting world back then, Gurkas, Polish piolets etc.

 

The training to blow peoples heads up practicing on stones - that's pretty rough stuff. The Ashamen are brutality to counter brutality I suppose.

 

In one sense if a populace is fickle intherantly then I guess there is no point maintaining loyalty if it can be won or lost at crunch time, Rand just needs to get them right before closing time.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Thanks for interesting info and I suppose every country has nut jobs who'd volunteer for a mad army, British in the SS isn't something you hear about a lot so that's good to know.

 

Interesting world back then, Gurkas, Polish piolets etc.

 

The training to blow peoples heads up practicing on stones - that's pretty rough stuff. The Ashamen are brutality to counter brutality I suppose.

 

In one sense if a populace is fickle intherantly then I guess there is no point maintaining loyalty if it can be won or lost at crunch time, Rand just needs to get them right before closing time.

 

 

Mad? Why would a Cossack, Estonian, Galician, Crimean, Hungarian or Latvian have to be a nutjob to join the Waffen SS? Do you have any idea how life was in 1930s Eastern Europe or Baltic nations? Many lost near their entire families to Red Purges in the 20s and 30s or feared their nation falling to the USSR. It's why the Ukrainian SS units were so excessively brutal against the Soviets, the memories of the Holodomor were very much fresh.

[Rcurran]

Thanks again for providing a new (to me) perspective on old info.

 

When I was talking about nutjobs I primarily meant the British who joined rather than Fins etc.

 

Interesting perspective about what would motivate people back then. Holodomar etc (edit - Spelling here was bad)

 

I find the conflict between their joining up as volunteers to protect a genocidal dictator too easy to see from the comfort of my 21st century life. Volunteers suggest freedom of choice yet dictators like Hitler destroyed the freedoms of so many.

 

It's important to remember that as victors in war we were able to teach our children about the passion of thr free man to protect his fellows when the nitty gritty reality of life back then didn't leave much room for thinking of one's fellows.

[KefkaPalazzo]

As for the Black Tower. I believe that we can deduce some educated guesses based on the historical structures that it was taken from. Taim will enter the fight with 12 lieutenants who will each have underlings. His ambition will be to supplant Al'Thor and rule most of his Empire before the Wheel finally collapses in on itself with the full release of the Dark One. I am guessing 12 since that number was significant to the heads of the SS and RJ being well versed in military history seems to base the entire conduct, storyline and mannerism of the Black Tower/Ashamen heavily on the history of the SS/Waffen SS.

 

The organization Mazrim Taim built up from the motley crew of stragglers Rand provided him reminds one almost unequivocally, as of Winter's heart, of the SS. Both wear black uniforms and the ranks in the organization are unambiguous in their origin. E.g attack leader or storm leader. SS stands for Schutzstaffel (Guardian Group) and was originally created to protect Hitler. Asha'man is also said to mean Guardians, and one of their functions is (nominally) to protect Rand and to serve as his personal army. Also the Black Tower bears a resemblance to the "Waffen SS" in that it accepts volunteers from all nations provided they fulfill the specifications to form a multi-nation army united under one banner and ideology. A less striking resemblance is that like some divisions of the SS, the Black Tower is undoubtedly the elite of Al'Thors army. Also Taims position as a bureaucrat running a para-military organization under the command of a "Leader" can signify Taim as being the equivalent of Heinrich Himmler who was also purported to have turned on Hitler in the war, hence leading Hitler to sign his death sentence in the waning days of the war.

Awesome post. That's really all I can say about this. I'm kinda struck dumb at the realization. *bows*

[Mr Ares]

Thanks again for providing a new (to me) perspective on old info.

 

When I was talking about nutjobs I primarily meant the British who joined rather than Fins etc.

They were mostly lured in by the natty uniforms. If the SS prove anything, it's that evil comes with a sense of style.

[DanBirchett]

Maybe True Power Gateways aren't affected.

 

I find it unlikely that the True Power would be effected by the dreamspike. In chapter 51: A Testing, Rand points out that the Guardian itself prevents the One Power from being accessed and "The One Power only." Are the principles the dreamspike works on related to the function of the Guardian? I don't mean are they tied together, but do they operate on similar principles? I forget the details about it, if there even are many known about Far Madding and the Guardian.

 

It seems likely that if the True Power is usable inside the protection of the Guardian which prevents channeling at all (sans a Well of course), than the True Power should certainly be able to function within a dreamspike (which thus far seems to only prevent traveling past its borders, and of course makes the world smell wrong to people like Perrin).

[mbuehner]

Maybe True Power Gateways aren't affected.

 

I find it unlikely that the True Power would be effected by the dreamspike. In chapter 51: A Testing, Rand points out that the Guardian itself prevents the One Power from being accessed and "The One Power only." Are the principles the dreamspike works on related to the function of the Guardian? I don't mean are they tied together, but do they operate on similar principles? I forget the details about it, if there even are many known about Far Madding and the Guardian.

 

It seems likely that if the True Power is usable inside the protection of the Guardian which prevents channeling at all (sans a Well of course), than the True Power should certainly be able to function within a dreamspike (which thus far seems to only prevent traveling past its borders, and of course makes the world smell wrong to people like Perrin).

 

I'd say its an open question- the problem with the Far Madding analogy is that the Guardians stop all channeling, as opposed to the dreamspikes which stop very specific kinds of activity. To further explain- the connection (and name) of dreamspike and its ties to Tel'aran'rhiod suggest strongly to me that Traveling is somehow connected to/reliant on the world of dreams. I don't know how this works, but perhaps TAR works as some sort of conduit between the two locations like a wormhole. fIE, from the POV of the user there is no distance but somehow the world of dreams is actually the connection between two distant places similar to the Ways but covering huge distances in a single step. If thats true, it could be that the dreamspike blocks Traveling via the True Power as well, since what its really blocking is the medium through which the the gateway is made... not the gateway itself (regardless of how its formed). Or not- it could equally by that the True Power is simply tearing a whole through reality in an utterly different way unreleated to TAR.

[moratcorlm]

We also know that True Power Traveling does not use gateways at all; Graendal refers to the conduit between the two places as a 'portal' in TOM5; Moridin "rips open a hole" in ACOS20; and in EOTWpr Ishamael's True Power Traveling is depicted as the person fading into being rather than walking through a rectangular opening. It seems very unlikely that True Power Traveling involves passage through Tel'aran'rhiod.

[mbuehner]

I lean that way too, but I wouldn't entirely rule it out. Otoh, didn't Moridin mention something to Graendal about knowing the code for the one he gave her? That wouldn't make sense if he could use the TP to travel through the spike anyway.

[moratcorlm]

Good point. The fact that they have "keys" that can be overcome by some One Power cryptanalysis is obviously an important plot point, but it makes no sense phrased like that. Add that to the worldbuilding errors, I think.

[Guest stromgald30]

You can't really compare Black Tower to Cairhien, Tear and Illian. When Cairhien, Tear and Illian are Swords, Black Tower is a Nuke.

 

 

Anyhow, I understand him not running over there every 10 minutes to check how things are going, but I don't understand him leaving it almost completely unattended to (I hardly count sending 1 guy in disguise attending to, especially when he knows he can't travel there, thus something might stop him from ever returning with a report).

 

You don't leave your nukes unchecked. Especially when people have implied that it might explode right into your own face.

 

While I agree it's just plain stupid the way Rand has handled the growing Black Tower problem, I'm not sure if it's that implausible how he's seemingly ignoring it.

 

Up until Book 12, he's been too focused on making himself into a harder weapon. After his epiphany/catharsis, Rand's been busy fixing things elsewhere. He knows something is wrong at the BT, and I'm sure he suspects the worse, so he's probably hesitant to go barging in there to try to fix things without help (which is why he's seeking Logain, who he trusts more than Taim).

 

I also feel like it's something he's procrastinating. It's like cleaning out the garage for most people. You know if you don't do it, it's going to get worse, but you're loathe to get started on it. It's not a good trait in a leader (shying away from a loathsome but necessary task), but imperfections adds character. And like many other people have posted, it helps with the storyline.