Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[Kivam]

Wow. The Aiel's hatred of the Seanchan leads to the world falling to the Empire and the Aiel getting essentially wiped out. Except I don't think it's going to happen. It's made fairly clear that the Aiel not being included in the Dragon's Peace is what led to the war, and I think Aviendha will work against that this time, find a way to free the damane and march Seanchan to a better, more enlightened future.

 

Clearly, she'll make sure Rand includes them in the Peace

 

What's the deal with the Illuminated Ones, the Lightmakers? That doesn't seem anything like what the Seanchan are now.

 

The last chapter house of the Illuminators stumbled into Ebou Dar, but Nightflowers are useless with Damane Skylights. So they turn their scientific/technical skills to other things - like inventing the light bulb

[lillcheese]

Does anyone else think that Avi's forward trip kinda broke the rings?

[Kivam]

Also, where are the Male Aiel Channelers? I may have skimmed over it, but the Aiel produce a river of chicks who can channel. It stands to reason that there would be a corresponding river of Male channlers, who are also beasts in unarmed combat. With their martial training, they would make even better channlers, because they already have the focus and concentration skills to pick up channeling.

 

Male Aiel channelers go into the blight solo

[Sharaman]

One thing is for sure.

Unless there's a tectonic shift in power base at TG, the Aiel would indeed by wiped out by the Seanchan if they ended up in a war. The Ever Victorious Army has more of everything - soldiers, channelers, raken, torm, horses, etc. Most of all, the EVA is also a very adaptive force, which learns new tactics and strategy quickly and the Aiel are pretty rigid there. If both sides get dragons for example, the Seanchan will use them better because they know how to use pack animals.

Given Travel, the Aiel can't even hide in the Waste as they've always done.

It would be either fast or slow genocide.

So Avi has to find a way to avoid this -- it's something even a cool-headed WO like Amys is on the verge of.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Haven't read all responses, maybe somebody else mentioned this...

 

What destroys the Aiel in Avi's vision IS the deception that draws Andor and other nations into the Aiel/Seanchan conflict. Until that happens, conflict doesn't progress beyond the skirmish level because the Aiel are intertwined with the nations that are covered by the Dragon's Peace. The Seanchan don't attack in force because that would violate the terms of their Peace with, for instance, Arad Domon. But, once the Aiel deceive those nations into making war on the Seanchan, the gloves come off, and The Ever Victorious Army begins rolling-up those nations. Eventually the Aiel have no place to go except back to the Waste, making them pretty easy to exterminate.

 

The Aiel excuse their deception on the basis that the Seanchan have no honor in their view. What they get is no more than they deserve for that belief.

 

In short, they are the victims of their own immorality.

[Deadsy]

Why does everyone assume Mat, Perrin and Rand had died from the viewings? Did I miss something?

 

There was talk of a "Lord of the Two Rivers", perhaps Perrin's offspring? So Faile would have to get preggy before last battle, though this is a leap in the dark from me.

Mat was going to be in outriggers.... shakey ground I know but there it is. It didn't say Tuon died either, maybe she learned to channel and got chained (thus short reign)

Rand was said to have "abandoned" the Aiel, not dead. Doesn't prove he died.

 

Mat being in the outriggers is irrelevant if the future we saw isn't going to happen. Fact is, 17 years after the Last Battle, Tuon was either dead or not the Empress anymore. That indicates to me that Mat is probably not around either. Aviendha is also dead, or disappeared. Rand's daughter doesn't know anything about him. Rhuarc's son had to give her some random detail from something his father had told him about Rand.

[Sharaman]

Why does everyone assume Mat, Perrin and Rand had died from the viewings? Did I miss something?

 

There was talk of a "Lord of the Two Rivers", perhaps Perrin's offspring? So Faile would have to get preggy before last battle, though this is a leap in the dark from me.

Mat was going to be in outriggers.... shakey ground I know but there it is. It didn't say Tuon died either, maybe she learned to channel and got chained (thus short reign)

Rand was said to have "abandoned" the Aiel, not dead. Doesn't prove he died.

 

Mat being in the outriggers is irrelevant if the future we saw isn't going to happen. Fact is, 17 years after the Last Battle, Tuon was either dead or not the Empress anymore. That indicates to me that Mat is probably not around either. Aviendha is also dead, or disappeared. Rand's daughter doesn't know anything about him. Rhuarc's son had to give her some random detail from something his father had told him about Rand.

Maybe they all used the Ogier Book of Translation

[Kivam]

The entire future scene was alluded to in Nicola's fortelling back in LoC.

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear"

 

This clearly refers to Rand's lineage.

 

Actually, it clearly refers to Elayne (Lion=Andor) and Aviendha (spear)

 

"she who sees beyond"

 

I would say that Aviendha is without a doubt "she who sees beyond" though I suppose it could also refer to Min (as was assumed previously by many). I think this refers to Aviendha though since the visions Min sees ALWAYS come true, and thus, can't be changed. Why would there need to be a fortelling about that? There's every indication that how Aviendha reacts to this vision has the potential to change the entire destiny of the world. That's obviously something that would be fortold.

 

This is, clearly, Min. Not sure why you would think that Min's presence wouldn't be included in a foretelling.

 

"Three on the boat"

 

We still don't know about this one for sure.

 

?? The 3 are the ones referred to in the immediately prior sentence - Elayne, Aviendha, and Min, along with:

 

", and he who is dead yet lives."

 

Obiously this is Rand with his new memories of being Lews Therin and his other previous selves.

 

Rand, who is "dead yet lives" because he died at the Last Battle, but has survived death (Body Swap? Reincarnation? Resurrection? Choose your theory, but it'll answer the Eelfin's "to live you must die" riddle)

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, their having his body on a boat is a clear reference to the Arthurian legends where Arthur's body is taken away in a boat by the Lady of the Lake (I think that's what happens - my post seems kind of silly if I remembered it wrong). So, it is some reference to his funeral. Why they'd have his funeral on a boat when he died in a mountain in the middle of a northern tundra is another question, but that fortelling itself is pretty straightforward.

[Sid]

Scene: All the main characters are meeting before the Last Battle

 

Min: All my viewings of the future suck!

Egwene: Yeah, my dreams have been terrible lately.

-uncomfortable silence-

Rand: well, I don't actually have a plan after breaking the seals...

Egwene: I spent all my time not planning either.

-uncomfortable silence-

(Loial runs up, excited)

Loial: Friends! I spoke so well at the stump that most of us aren't going to leave this reality by opening the Book of Translations! We can help you out!

Rand: ...Hey Loial, can I see that Book for a second?

[rlanfinson]

Yeah, this viewing was sad. I hope that it doesn't turn out this way but I tend to think this is what the future really holds. Also, it makes sense. We've already seen a large portion of the Aiel unwilling to change and accept there past. It shouldn't be a surprise that they have difficulty coming to terms with their existence after the LB.

 

I hope this isn't the future either, and I don't think that it will end this way. RJ wouldn't have dedicated over 20 years of his life creating this world for us, only to let it end in such a manner. I don't think he would do that to the fans, either. What would be the reason? To end all those years of work, the build-up to the final battle, and the aftermath is a world ruled by tyrants and slave-masters. I don't think there are any writers that come to mind who are that cruel.

 

Why wouldn't he? Seriously, why not? There's no reason for everything to end up all hunky-dory, as long as the Dark One has been defeated. There'll be lots of storylines and plots that won't be wrapped up at the end, so why not the Seanchan taking over the whole world?

I suppose it could end that way. Personally, I wouldn't do it, were I writing the series. Alas, I am not RJ. There may have been plans for more books in the series after the defeat of the DO, who really knows. I don't think RJ planned on dying, so he may well have planned books for the future about the time after the Last Battle. I guess I prefer closure, as well as a happy ending.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

I suppose it could end that way. Personally, I wouldn't do it, were I writing the series. Alas, I am not RJ. There may have been plans for more books in the series after the defeat of the DO, who really knows. I don't think RJ planned on dying, so he may well have planned books for the future about the time after the Last Battle. I guess I prefer closure, as well as a happy ending.

 

Ya, I think it's safe to say that the series is going to end on an up note. If there's more books in the future, then things can go wrong again, but I don't see a 14 book series ending off as a prelude to upcoming novels.

[Deadsy]

It would have been pretty edgy for him to do it this way... never letting us know whether Aviendha's trip was real or not.

 

 

But I just don't see it. Not because it would upset me (and ya, it would upset me). But because RJ has always had trouble killing his characters off. Even the minor characters. If he hated killing off characters, I just find it hard to believe he would do something worse (imo) and show that the next Age is terribad for everyone except the most hated nation in the story. It also goes against so many themes that have been built up. The WT & BT working together, Aes Sedai retiring, sul'dam being able to channel. All this stuff over the past 12 books we've been hearing about, and it doesn't end up mattering because all of those channelers will be collared or dead anyway.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ya, their having his body on a boat is a clear reference to the Arthurian legends where Arthur's body is taken away in a boat by the Lady of the Lake (I think that's what happens - my post seems kind of silly if I remembered it wrong). So, it is some reference to his funeral. Why they'd have his funeral on a boat when he died in a mountain in the middle of a northern tundra is another question, but that fortelling itself is pretty straightforward.

 

Depends on the version of Arthur's death you mean.

 

There's one version where he is borne away by three women one of whom is Guinevere.

 

Malory's version has him being taken to Avalon by four women, Morgan Le Fay, The Queen of Northgales, The Queen of Wastelands, and Niniane, aka Nimue, aka The Lady of the Lake.

 

If we use Malory as a model, Nicola's foretelling isn't straightforward at all.

 

First we need to roll Morgan Le Fay and the Lady of the Lake into one character ( she who sees beyond ) who would more nearly resemble Egwene than Min.

Then the Queen of Northgales seems more likely to be Nynaeve than Elayne who might most likely be the Lion sword.

Aviendha as the Queen of Wastelands/dedicated spear is the only one that seems self-evident.

[rlanfinson]

I'm sure that all of us hope that the series ends happily. While it may not give closure on all of the loose ends, I hope at least that the mains find a bit of happiness in the end. If there is a dark future, I don't want to bloody know about it.

[Yates_]

First, to clarify my question about he Aiel male channelers. Yes, in the past they went to the waste solo. Why hasn't Rand stopped this since he came to power. He tells the dreamwalkers, when a man begins to channel, bring him to me.

 

Second, about the dying yet living: It is called CPR. Honestly, young children in our world have performed a simple medical procedure that seems completely beyond the Aes Sedai healing. Nyn is always saying that EVERYTHING should be healable. I think she will come up with some way to revive a recently dead Rand. It is not going to be some crazy, week later thing. He dies sealing up the DO due to the stress of the final act, the Forces of Light begin to mourn, and NYN gets exasperated and heals him.

 

Finally, I have some HUGE questions about the visions. From a practical standpoint, how does Randland lose to the Seanchan? The Aes Sedai can alter the three oaths to allow for offensive attacks on the Seanchan, otherwise they are easy meat. Secondly, the Damane can't link, and ostensibly have no male channelers. Why wouldn't the Black Tower and White Tower team up, form circles, and wipe out the Seanchan? It is not even that Randland lost the war. Randland channelers should have won this war in a matter of weeks. By adding men to circles, they would have been infinitely more powerful than solitary Damanes, even a bunch of them. I can't see the WT holding to a truce with people who are one day going to leash them. No way Seanchan beats the Aiel with the BT and WT probably openly helping them. This is a worst case scenario, with all the good guys making the worst possible decisions. This has the DO written all over it.

[ravenprincess]

After reading, and then immediately re-reading, Avi's opening scene, I am inclined to think Nakomi is either a Forsaken, or the Light's equivalent of one. I mean, the meal gets ready more quickly than Avi thinks it should have been, Nakomi approaches and leaves without her noticing, and a meal that she thinks is too scrawny to be shared by two turns into a feast. However, I am disinclined to think that the portal stone was used, because Avi still has days to travel to Ruhidean and the stone sits on the slopes of Mount Chander which is only half a day's [Aiel] walk from the city.

 

One more theory I have entertained, and this falls into the loony theory category, is that Nakomi is from the future trying to talk some sense into Avi. Avi's trip through the future shows what Nakomi COULD be trying to prevent. Any takers on this one??

[smileyman]

Second, about the dieing yet living: It is called CPR. Honestly, young children in our world have performed a simple medical procedure that seems completely beyond the Aes Sedai healing. Nyn is always saying that EVERYTHING should be healable. I think she will come up with some way to revive a recently dead Rand. It is not going to be some crazy, week later thing. He dies sealing up the DO due to the stress of the final act, the Forces of Light begin to mourn, and NYN gets exasperated and heals him.

 

CPR is your answer? That only helps in a tiny portion of lethal incidents. Won't help with a blow to the head, or a spear in the heart, or bleeding out, or getting an illness, etc., etc., etc.

 

Finally, I have some HUGE questions about the visions. From a practical standpoint, how does Randland lose to the Seanchan? The Aes Sedai can alter the three oaths to allow for offensive attacks on the Seanchan, otherwise they are easy meat. Secondly, the Damane can't link, and ostensibly have no male channelers. Why wouldn't the Black Tower and White Tower team up, form circles, and wipe out the Seanchan? It is not even that Randland lost the war. Randland channelers should have won this war in a matter of weeks. By adding men to circles, they would have been infinitely more powerful than solitary Damanes, even a bunch of them. I can't see the WT holding to a truce with people who are one day going to leash them. No way Seanchan beats the Aiel with the BT and WT probably openly helping them. This is a worst case scenario, with all the good guys making the worst possible decisions. This has the DO written all over it.

 

It's pretty obvious that the White Tower was fighting back in the last vision--otherwise they wouldn't still be holding out. Here's a few things that would make the Seanchan win inevitable.

 

1.) The Seanchan are united. They have one ruler and although there is lots of scheming behind the scenes, they give absolute obedience in public. The nations of Randland are divided now, and will still be divided after the Last Battle. They might all hold to the Dragon's Peace, but that doesn't mean they're going to all think a like, or recognize the dangers of the Seanchan, or have the same ideas about how to handle things.

 

2.) The Seanchan are much, much, much more effective at finding channelers than is the White Tower. Every country they conquer will add to their army of da'mane, as well as soldiers and supply lines, while at the same time constricting the options available to the Aiel and the Aes Sedai.

 

3.) There's little love lost between most of Randland and the Aiel and the Aes Sedai. Once the Seanchan make it known that they're only after those two groups (and probably Andor), the other nations will likely roll over and play dead. If the rulers don't, the people will. Most people aren't going to help out a stranger at the risk of their own skin.

 

4.) The Seanchan are infinitely more adaptable at tactics than are the Aiel. The Aiel have great hand-to-hand skills, but I wasn't overly impressed with their strategic sense, and even much less impressed with any kind of formation fighting. The Seanchan also have mixed units of support. They have infantry, calvary, and they rule the skies. The Aiel have infantry only.

 

5.) The da'mane have been exclusively trained in how to use the Power as a weapon. This gives them a huge first advantage. Yeah the White Tower can eventually swear new oaths (or even forego the swearing of the Three Oaths entirely), but given the arrogance of Aes Sedai it will come too late to make up the numbers difference.

 

6.) Right now it's looking like the Seanchan might miss the Last Battle entirely. This is going to give them a huge numbers advantage in men and weapons when the time comes. Most of the Randland nations (particularly the Aiel in my opinion) will be devastated by the Last Battle. It will take them a couple of generations to regain that martial fervor. (Think France and England from the ending of WWI to the beginning of WWII).

[Yates_]

Second, about the dieing yet living: It is called CPR. Honestly, young children in our world have performed a simple medical procedure that seems completely beyond the Aes Sedai healing. Nyn is always saying that EVERYTHING should be healable. I think she will come up with some way to revive a recently dead Rand. It is not going to be some crazy, week later thing. He dies sealing up the DO due to the stress of the final act, the Forces of Light begin to mourn, and NYN gets exasperated and heals him.

 

CPR is your answer? That only helps in a tiny portion of lethal incidents. Won't help with a blow to the head, or a spear in the heart, or bleeding out, or getting an illness, etc., etc., etc.

 

Finally, I have some HUGE questions about the visions. From a practical standpoint, how does Randland lose to the Seanchan? The Aes Sedai can alter the three oaths to allow for offensive attacks on the Seanchan, otherwise they are easy meat. Secondly, the Damane can't link, and ostensibly have no male channelers. Why wouldn't the Black Tower and White Tower team up, form circles, and wipe out the Seanchan? It is not even that Randland lost the war. Randland channelers should have won this war in a matter of weeks. By adding men to circles, they would have been infinitely more powerful than solitary Damanes, even a bunch of them. I can't see the WT holding to a truce with people who are one day going to leash them. No way Seanchan beats the Aiel with the BT and WT probably openly helping them. This is a worst case scenario, with all the good guys making the worst possible decisions. This has the DO written all over it.

 

It's pretty obvious that the White Tower was fighting back in the last vision--otherwise they wouldn't still be holding out. Here's a few things that would make the Seanchan win inevitable.

 

1.) The Seanchan are united. They have one ruler and although there is lots of scheming behind the scenes, they give absolute obedience in public. The nations of Randland are divided now, and will still be divided after the Last Battle. They might all hold to the Dragon's Peace, but that doesn't mean they're going to all think a like, or recognize the dangers of the Seanchan, or have the same ideas about how to handle things.

 

2.) The Seanchan are much, much, much more effective at finding channelers than is the White Tower. Every country they conquer will add to their army of da'mane, as well as soldiers and supply lines, while at the same time constricting the options available to the Aiel and the Aes Sedai.

 

3.) There's little love lost between most of Randland and the Aiel and the Aes Sedai. Once the Seanchan make it known that they're only after those two groups (and probably Andor), the other nations will likely roll over and play dead. If the rulers don't, the people will. Most people aren't going to help out a stranger at the risk of their own skin.

 

4.) The Seanchan are infinitely more adaptable at tactics than are the Aiel. The Aiel have great hand-to-hand skills, but I wasn't overly impressed with their strategic sense, and even much less impressed with any kind of formation fighting. The Seanchan also have mixed units of support. They have infantry, calvary, and they rule the skies. The Aiel have infantry only.

 

5.) The da'mane have been exclusively trained in how to use the Power as a weapon. This gives them a huge first advantage. Yeah the White Tower can eventually swear new oaths (or even forego the swearing of the Three Oaths entirely), but given the arrogance of Aes Sedai it will come too late to make up the numbers difference.

 

6.) Right now it's looking like the Seanchan might miss the Last Battle entirely. This is going to give them a huge numbers advantage in men and weapons when the time comes. Most of the Randland nations (particularly the Aiel in my opinion) will be devastated by the Last Battle. It will take them a couple of generations to regain that martial fervor. (Think France and England from the ending of WWI to the beginning of WWII).

 

Not CPR per se. But Nyn is always finding new ways to heal. Rand's death will probably be rooted in organ failure as a result of stress, exhaustion. He will have other wounds, but his heart will be stopped. It is not as though I expect him to suffer sever trauma or be crushed, or blown up or simliar. Nyn should be able to "heal" the other wounds, and then use the one power to restart his heart. Rather than trying to heal the whole body, she could heal him piecemiel, and then jumpstart his heart.

 

Your points about the Seanchan are all valid. However, the Aiel are excellent fighters. They seem to have a good understanding of tactics. And there are a few Ashaman left after the LB. If they link with Circles of the WO, their power would be exponentially higher than that of the Damanes. And the AM are easily as weaponized as the Damanes. The AM should be able to link with WO, or any Aiel channelers, and wipe out any Seanchan channelers. The individual damanes are the equivilent of machine guns. If my understanding is correct, full circles containing men would be like atom bombs.

 

As it was written, I understand how the Seanchan beat the Aiel. I just don't see how the Randlanders would make the decisions that they made. I mean, do the Aiel, Aes Sedai, and Asha'Man refuse to link and work together even when faced with obiliteration? It just doesn't make sense to me. The decision making is seriously flawed. Part of this seems to be a lack of experienced people. This just seems like a best case scenario for the DO if the Light wins TG. Them losing just doesn't make sense.

 

I am begining to think the trip forward was just an extension of Avi's (or whoever goes through) greatest fear.

[Pug]

Hey it's been awhile since I've posted something, so here I go.

 

Doesn't the Aiel prophecy about Rand say that he will destroy them??? Amys says to Rand "Are you so eager to destroy us?" TSR chapter 34 He Who Comes With The Dawn, page 568. So it could be that all the Wise Ones see the past of their people and a future like Aviendha saw, and that could by why they think that the Car'a'carn will destroy them.

 

As it is the future isn't set in stone; it changes with a single action. So Aviendha simply saw a possible future for the Aiel, it could be the most likely one to happen but it can be changed.

 

Another thought. Yoda says to Luke in Star Wars that the future is always emotion; so the future she saw could've been the product of what she was thinking on her way to Rhuidean and the emotions that came with those thoughts.

[Kestrel]

After reading, and then immediately re-reading, Avi's opening scene, I am inclined to think Nakomi is either a Forsaken, or the Light's equivalent of one. I mean, the meal gets ready more quickly than Avi thinks it should have been, Nakomi approaches and leaves without her noticing, and a meal that she thinks is too scrawny to be shared by two turns into a feast. However, I am disinclined to think that the portal stone was used, because Avi still has days to travel to Ruhidean and the stone sits on the slopes of Mount Chander which is only half a day's [Aiel] walk from the city.

 

One more theory I have entertained, and this falls into the loony theory category, is that Nakomi is from the future trying to talk some sense into Avi. Avi's trip through the future shows what Nakomi COULD be trying to prevent. Any takers on this one??

I concur on the idea that Nakomi is a forsaken. Could be Graendal, or could be Cyndane exercising some restraint so as to savor Avi's slow destruction.

 

Now i'd like to explore the Portal Stone idea a little more. Supposing Nakomi is a forsaken, could she also have used the portal stone to transport Aviendha into a nightmarish parallel world? One where the Rhuidean ter'angreal gives future nightmare visions instead of historical visions?

[smileyman]

Not CPR per se. But Nyn is always finding new ways to heal. Rand's death will probably be rooted in organ failure as a result of stress, exhaustion. He will have other wounds, but his heart will be stopped. It is not as though I expect him to suffer sever trauma or be crushed, or blown up or simliar. Nyn should be able to "heal" the other wounds, and then use the one power to restart his heart. Rather than trying to heal the whole body, she could heal him piecemiel, and then jumpstart his heart.

 

I've never been convinced that Rand will actually die at Shayol Ghul. I think that's been a mis-interpretation from the beginning and that if anything it'll be a metaphorical death. (And the Randlanders do know CPR--that's how Rand brought Mat back after his hanging on Avendsora).

 

Your points about the Seanchan are all valid. However, the Aiel are excellent fighters. They seem to have a good understanding of tactics. And there are a few Ashaman left after the LB.

 

Tactics is not the same thing as strategy. Tactics focuses on the short-term. Strategy focuses on the long-term. Basically you use tactics to figure out how to win the particular engagement you're in at the moment. You use strategy to plan the whole campaign of the war. They're very different and you can be good at the one and not the other or at both. I agree that the Aiel have a pretty good tactical sense, but I think their strategic sense is lousy. They've never needed to develop a strategic sense--all of their battles in the Waste have been short-term skirmishes with neighboring clans. They've been raids and quick campaigns, not long-term campaigns. The Aiel War had one purpose, that was to kill King Laman and I never got the impression that the Aiel did anything but attack straight forward. They won because individually their soldiers were the equal of 10 Randlander soldiers.

 

If they link with Circles of the WO, their power would be exponentially higher than that of the Damanes. And the AM are easily as weaponized as the Damanes. The AM should be able to link with WO, or any Aiel channelers, and wipe out any Seanchan channelers. The individual damanes are the equivilent of machine guns. If my understanding is correct, full circles containing men would be like atom bombs.

 

Yeah their sheer power will be greater but skill is equally important (maybe more important). The skill levels will equalize fairly quickly, but that initial thrust is vitally important, especially if the Seanchan can pin the Aes Sedai in the White Tower so they're under siege for most of the war. If they can do that, then the Aes Sedai will have a virtually impossible time of replenishing channelers while the Seanchan will have free access to everyone in Randland and Seanchan. Since the taint is now cleansed they'll also have access to male channelers as well.

 

And yeah the men do hold out longer than the women, at least as irregular forces.

 

As it was written, I understand how the Seanchan beat the Aiel. I just don't see how the Randlanders would make the decisions that they made. I mean, do the Aiel, Aes Sedai, and Asha'Man refuse to link and work together even when faced with obiliteration? It just doesn't make sense to me. The decision making is seriously flawed. Part of this seems to be a lack of experienced people. This just seems like a best case scenario for the DO if the Light wins TG. Them losing just doesn't make sense.

 

Here's the thing--the Aiel, Aes Sedai and Asha'man might all work together but if the rest of Randland isn't united against the Seanchan as well it's going to be over. They'll be outnumbered from the very beginning and every loss will hurt them worse than it'll hurt the Seanchan.

 

I am begining to think the trip forward was just an extension of Avi's (or whoever goes through) greatest fear.

 

I don't think it's an extension of Avi's fears, but simply a prophecy of what might be. I don't think it'll absolutely happen but I suspect that it's very likely unless Aviendha can find a new purpose for the Aiel after the Last Battle.

[smileyman]

Hey it's been awhile since I've posted something, so here I go.

 

Doesn't the Aiel prophecy about Rand say that he will destroy them??? Amys says to Rand "Are you so eager to destroy us?" TSR chapter 34 He Who Comes With The Dawn, page 568. So it could be that all the Wise Ones see the past of their people and a future like Aviendha saw, and that could by why they think that the Car'a'carn will destroy them.

 

The Wise Ones see events from their own lives, so they can make decisions as they need to. (It's why the Aiel were there at Rhiudean). The prophecy is actually that a remnant of a remnant will survive.

[dfchang]

Scene: All the main characters are meeting before the Last Battle

 

Min: All my viewings of the future suck!

Egwene: Yeah, my dreams have been terrible lately.

-uncomfortable silence-

Rand: well, I don't actually have a plan after breaking the seals...

Egwene: I spent all my time not planning either.

-uncomfortable silence-

(Loial runs up, excited)

Loial: Friends! I spoke so well at the stump that most of us aren't going to leave this reality by opening the Book of Translations! We can help you out!

Rand: ...Hey Loial, can I see that Book for a second?

 

Dude, I have to give you props for this. Freaking hilarious, had me laughing out loud. :):)

 

Dennis

[dfchang]

By the way, the visions are a great way to ratchet up the tension but come on. This isn't the sort of story Jordan is trying to tell. He is not George RR Martin. We're supposed to get worried but Aviendha is going to make it right. No doubt by forcing all the Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs to walk through those columns again.

 

It has a certain harmony to it after all. She WAS worried that the ritual would lose all relevance now that literally everyone and their grandmas know about the Aiel's history and shame. Well, guess what? Now it's relevant again.

 

And what better way to convince the leaders of the Aiel nation of the truth than asking them to walk in their descendants footsteps?

 

I'm pretty sure what Avi did to the ter'angreal is permanent.

 

There are two premises that really need to be met for the future shown to be averted.

 

1. The Aiel need to go back to the Way of the Leaf. In a weird way that would mean GIVING up being Aiel in the modern sense of the word . . . and going back to being Aiel in the ancient, traditional sense.

 

2. The Seanchan have to stop leashing channelers. The only way I see this happening is for Tuon to find out that all sul'damane can channel including herself. It's not perfect but it's a start. There are serious cultural problems with this shift because the damane themselves will resist but as Alivia and a few others like her have demonstrated, this is NOT natural and can be overcome eventually.

 

Dennis