Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[decrepid dragon]

Working AGAINST the light?

 

That's kind of harsh. I mean, the Borderlanders ABANDONED THEIR lands (which are being overrun by trollocs) because they thought they might have to kill Rand. All Egwene is doing is trying to drum up support to stop him from doing something that she believes is INSANE.

 

Me, I think she deserves an awful lot of credit. At 19, I was flunking out of college. At 19, she's reunited the single most powerful force for the light in Randland, purged it of the Black ajah and bagged a forsaken on the way. Her mistakes pale in comparison to the ones that Rand has made.

 

I think she deserve the benefit of the doubt... at least until she actually does something that hurts Rand.

I mean against the light in the way that having one leg in a running race works against you, not actually full blown DO worshiping Light hating aginst

[anotherfingolfin]

Ok, i can't help feel that Tuon's newest plan to attack the white tower is going to have some effect in the outcome of all this. And i would like to think that Cadsuane's support of Rand will go a long way in convincing other AS. Could some of the Egwene apologists here please, please explain to me, what does having every soldier of the light gathered in one place achieve? I can undersand every single leader there to convince Rand Sedai, but really? I mean, to try and use that force against him is beyond insane, so i think not only is her plan misguided, but foolish. Also, any thoughts on what she means when she says that she hopes Rand will not force her hand? What could she mean? A battle of power?

[decrepid dragon]

I really feel after reading posts on it that Egwene is being swept along by the pattern to gather every army, so they can all just mass gate to the blight when the time comes.

[Terhan]

...Could some of the Egwene apologists here please, please explain to me, what does having every soldier of the light gathered in one place achieve? I can undersand every single leader there to convince Rand Sedai, but really? I mean, to try and use that force against him is beyond insane, so i think not only is her plan misguided, but foolish. Also, any thoughts on what she means when she says that she hopes Rand will not force her hand? What could she mean? A battle of power?

 

I agree, I don't understand this sudden infectious bout of mass stupidity that Egwene has let loose. I am hoping that Mat will arrive with Moiraine, and she will support Rand's decision, and together with the three ta'veren bending the pattern, the others will be forced to come around. I mean, really, is this what she thinks of as an appropriate way to make an argument with the Dragon? Do as she says or she will...do what? Put you in a box?

[dwn]

...Could some of the Egwene apologists here please, please explain to me, what does having every soldier of the light gathered in one place achieve? I can undersand every single leader there to convince Rand Sedai, but really? I mean, to try and use that force against him is beyond insane, so i think not only is her plan misguided, but foolish. Also, any thoughts on what she means when she says that she hopes Rand will not force her hand? What could she mean? A battle of power?

 

I agree, I don't understand this sudden infectious bout of mass stupidity that Egwene has let loose. I am hoping that Mat will arrive with Moiraine, and she will support Rand's decision, and together with the three ta'veren bending the pattern, the others will be forced to come around. I mean, really, is this what she thinks of as an appropriate way to make an argument with the Dragon? Do as she says or she will...do what? Put you in a box?

 

It goes something like: "Rand, the world's leaders and their people have joined me here to oppose you. Please reconsider this insane plan." Should that fail, then she, like the Borderland rulers, has a huge force ready to try to stop him. Now, I think she imagines her support to be more solid than it is...

 

-- dwn

[anotherfingolfin]

It goes something like: "Rand, the world's leaders and their people have joined me here to oppose you. Please reconsider this insane plan." Should that fail, then she, like the Borderland rulers, has a huge force ready to try to stop him. Now, I think she imagines her support to be more solid than it is...

 

-- dwn

 

the thing is, the borderlanders also stipulated that they meet in a place where the power would not really work, and rand only brought a token guard. and they soldiers there probably knew what they had to do. in this case, its a huge mess of soldiers that are just there. and there are a number of chanellers. and armies on both sides... seems like a recipe for disaster stew with a helping of mashed forces of the light.

[Danny7185]

It goes something like: "Rand, the world's leaders and their people have joined me here to oppose you. Please reconsider this insane plan." Should that fail, then she, like the Borderland rulers, has a huge force ready to try to stop him. Now, I think she imagines her support to be more solid than it is...

 

-- dwn

 

the thing is, the borderlanders also stipulated that they meet in a place where the power would not really work, and rand only brought a token guard. and they soldiers there probably knew what they had to do. in this case, its a huge mess of soldiers that are just there. and there are a number of chanellers. and armies on both sides... seems like a recipe for disaster stew with a helping of mashed forces of the light.

 

After what Rand showed he was capable of in Maradon, do you really think he would let his people turn against one another? He was channeling like an entire army of channelers for an hour. He would need only do something like create giant walls of Air and separate everyone.

 

The Aes Sedai won't be able to do anything because no one is Shadowspawn and they couldn't be fearful for their life if no one could move. The Asha'man present and Wise Ones wouldn't use the Power against anyone if Rand told them not to.

 

Actually, everyone getting a little riled up could benefit him because he could show that he is more powerful than everyone there combined. That would definitely help sway some of the parties that were on the fence.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not sure where this needs to go, so I'll put here -

 

When Rand and Bashere rescue Ituralde:

It was so odd to see troops with shiny armor, neat uniforms, clean faces. They'd swept in with large numbers of Asha'man and Aes Sedai, and an army that - for now - had been enough to drive the Shadowspawn back to the hillside fortifications above the river...

 

Rand has a small number of Aes Sedai and their Warder Asha'man that have been with him since the Cleansing, but not large numbers of either.

 

Since he hasn't been to the Black Tower for ages, and since he didn't pickup any reinforcements while he was at the White Tower, where is he getting these "large numbers" of both Asha'man and Aes Sedai?

[Kaznen]

Not sure where this needs to go, so I'll put here -

 

When Rand and Bashere rescue Ituralde:

It was so odd to see troops with shiny armor, neat uniforms, clean faces. They'd swept in with large numbers of Asha'man and Aes Sedai, and an army that - for now - had been enough to drive the Shadowspawn back to the hillside fortifications above the river...

 

Rand has a small number of Aes Sedai and their Warder Asha'man that have been with him since the Cleansing, but not large numbers of either.

 

Since he hasn't been to the Black Tower for ages, and since he didn't pickup any reinforcements while he was at the White Tower, where is he getting these "large numbers" of both Asha'man and Aes Sedai?

Between the bonded AS and the ones sworn to him he has over 70 AS he can call on.

[Sharaman]

It goes something like: "Rand, the world's leaders and their people have joined me here to oppose you. Please reconsider this insane plan." Should that fail, then she, like the Borderland rulers, has a huge force ready to try to stop him. Now, I think she imagines her support to be more solid than it is...

 

-- dwn

 

the thing is, the borderlanders also stipulated that they meet in a place where the power would not really work, and rand only brought a token guard. and they soldiers there probably knew what they had to do. in this case, its a huge mess of soldiers that are just there. and there are a number of chanellers. and armies on both sides... seems like a recipe for disaster stew with a helping of mashed forces of the light.

 

After what Rand showed he was capable of in Maradon, do you really think he would let his people turn against one another? He was channeling like an entire army of channelers for an hour. He would need only do something like create giant walls of Air and separate everyone.

 

The Aes Sedai won't be able to do anything because no one is Shadowspawn and they couldn't be fearful for their life if no one could move. The Asha'man present and Wise Ones wouldn't use the Power against anyone if Rand told them not to.

 

Actually, everyone getting a little riled up could benefit him because he could show that he is more powerful than everyone there combined. That would definitely help sway some of the parties that were on the fence.

Rand manipulates Egwene into gathering his potential supporters in one place. Now he'll ta'veren them all into supporting him.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Between the bonded AS and the ones sworn to him he has over 70 AS he can call on.

 

Where are you getting that number?

[decrepid dragon]

Didn't he provide ashaman for Rodel Ituralde? I remember mention of 100, but I am fairly certain they didn't all get there. How many did he send, and were they from the BT or from Rands group of followers?

[Sharaman]

Didn't he provide ashaman for Rodel Ituralde? I remember mention of 100, but I am fairly certain they didn't all get there. How many did he send, and were they from the BT or from Rands group of followers?

Rand provided 50 AM for Ituralde but they've all been ko-ed by exhaustion and sent back.

Ok since we seen him doing the rescue several days later, he may have gotten them back in shape.

[Danny7185]

It goes something like: "Rand, the world's leaders and their people have joined me here to oppose you. Please reconsider this insane plan." Should that fail, then she, like the Borderland rulers, has a huge force ready to try to stop him. Now, I think she imagines her support to be more solid than it is...

 

-- dwn

 

the thing is, the borderlanders also stipulated that they meet in a place where the power would not really work, and rand only brought a token guard. and they soldiers there probably knew what they had to do. in this case, its a huge mess of soldiers that are just there. and there are a number of chanellers. and armies on both sides... seems like a recipe for disaster stew with a helping of mashed forces of the light.

 

After what Rand showed he was capable of in Maradon, do you really think he would let his people turn against one another? He was channeling like an entire army of channelers for an hour. He would need only do something like create giant walls of Air and separate everyone.

 

The Aes Sedai won't be able to do anything because no one is Shadowspawn and they couldn't be fearful for their life if no one could move. The Asha'man present and Wise Ones wouldn't use the Power against anyone if Rand told them not to.

 

Actually, everyone getting a little riled up could benefit him because he could show that he is more powerful than everyone there combined. That would definitely help sway some of the parties that were on the fence.

Rand manipulates Egwene into gathering his potential supporters in one place. Now he'll ta'veren them all into supporting him.

 

That is what I think will happen. I was just making the case as to why there wouldn't be any fighting amongst all the gathered armies.

 

He'll make everyone agree to the Dragon's Peace and whatever else he cooks up as payment for him going to Shayol Ghul. I can't wait to see the ta'veren jiu-jitsu he pulls off at the Meeting.

[dwn]

Between the bonded AS and the ones sworn to him he has over 70 AS he can call on.

 

Where are you getting that number?

 

Elaida sent 51 sisters to destroy the Black Tower.

The remnants of Coiren's delegation to Cairhien (13+).

Merana's delegation (9).

Bera, Kiruna and Alanna

Cadsuane and her crew (at least 4 left).

 

Now, while that's technically over 70, a good number of those sisters aren't available to Rand on a whim. Seonid and Masuri are with Perrin, Alanna is elsewhere, Logaine and his men are who-knows-where, etc.

 

Still, a mixed group of 50 fresh channellers might still be considered 'large' from Ituralde's standpoint.

 

-- dwn

[anotherfingolfin]

It goes something like: "Rand, the world's leaders and their people have joined me here to oppose you. Please reconsider this insane plan." Should that fail, then she, like the Borderland rulers, has a huge force ready to try to stop him. Now, I think she imagines her support to be more solid than it is...

 

-- dwn

 

the thing is, the borderlanders also stipulated that they meet in a place where the power would not really work, and rand only brought a token guard. and they soldiers there probably knew what they had to do. in this case, its a huge mess of soldiers that are just there. and there are a number of chanellers. and armies on both sides... seems like a recipe for disaster stew with a helping of mashed forces of the light.

 

After what Rand showed he was capable of in Maradon, do you really think he would let his people turn against one another? He was channeling like an entire army of channelers for an hour. He would need only do something like create giant walls of Air and separate everyone.

 

The Aes Sedai won't be able to do anything because no one is Shadowspawn and they couldn't be fearful for their life if no one could move. The Asha'man present and Wise Ones wouldn't use the Power against anyone if Rand told them not to.

 

Actually, everyone getting a little riled up could benefit him because he could show that he is more powerful than everyone there combined. That would definitely help sway some of the parties that were on the fence.

Rand manipulates Egwene into gathering his potential supporters in one place. Now he'll ta'veren them all into supporting him.

 

That is what I think will happen. I was just making the case as to why there wouldn't be any fighting amongst all the gathered armies.

 

He'll make everyone agree to the Dragon's Peace and whatever else he cooks up as payment for him going to Shayol Ghul. I can't wait to see the ta'veren jiu-jitsu he pulls off at the Meeting.

 

i agree with you. it's just that i am trying to look at it from Egwene's perspective. what is she thinking? and what in the world does she mean when she says rand should not force her hand?

[FarShainMael]

I've always liked the idea that Roedral in Murandy is Demandred. Considering Murandy's lack of response to Egwene's request... kinda lends more support to it, I think.

 

Tenobia makes me suspicious. I guess she isn't a Darkfriend unless she can somehow suppress anti-Darkfriend abilities of Rand, though.

 

So, yeah. Murandy. Which I'm almost certain is ruled by the Shadow.

 

But it looks like a good deal of nobility have come. And Rand will certainly drive the Shadow from them, most certainly some DFs there. And BA remnants may be found.

 

Yeah, I do hope that Murandy is shadow-held. I am not sure about Roedean actually being Demandred. Brandon has said that Demandred is the biggest player as far as the Shadow is concerned, and that his locations will pay off big time. I cant see how ruling Murandy, which is pretty small and not really important, would have that effect. I think that Demandred has a hand in it, but I woudl say that he has his hand in other places aswell.

 

Yeah, Tenobia is wild. Note that the ruler in Maradon, the one that was a DF, was Tenobia's favorite. Could mean something? But I agree, I find it hard that she can dodge Rand's superpowers. She is hardly good at keeping her emotions in the first place.

 

Yep to the last point. I think that, as Rand said, the time has come for the final battle to begin. No more spies and traitors, just Light v Shadow in an epic showdown.

 

Er..

 

You all know what I'm like for crazy theories..

 

So here's a beaut..

 

....what if Tenobia (courtesy of MoM etc) was Demandred?

 

not possible, rand is no longer blind to people who serve the DO

Also not possible because she features onscreen in TPoD.

I'd harboured a hope that Demandred = Berelain until that RJ quote came along.

Thanks, I'd forgotten whether she had or not.

[Guest amadio mark]

My take on all this Rand vrs Egwene is rand really does not care what she plans. Only that she makes them and shows up with the kings, queens and there army’s where he tells her to, that is the key to his plan the meeting place. I think he plans on being real nice and polite listen to all the arguments when he shows up. Then telling them sense it is him who is going to fight the DO and die he is going to do it the best he can and on his own terms and that Breaking the seals at his choosing and trying to reseal the bore is are his options. He will state that he needs the armies to cover his back and fight the shadow spawn while he is doing this and will need the channelers to help in resealing the bore. Then he points out by the way there just happens to be a portal stone over there starts channeling and says welcome to Shayol Ghul

[FarShainMael]

Does anyone have any opinions about Rand's cloak? Throughout the book, it's specifically described and he is constantly seen wearing it. An early poster mentioned that it could be a TA, which, while interesting, doesn't seem plausible. It seems to be a symbol for the transformation that can be found in Rand and his connection to the world. Could there be more to it?

 

Also, what about the recently found power-wrought sword that was dug up while staying at the manner in tGS? Rand mentions in ToM that is reminds him of the past, but there seemed to be something very specific about the weapon that he recalled and decidedly did not mention. Could it originally have been LTT's sword?

Rand got the cloak from a Tinker in trade for his 'fine black coat' so that he would 'stand out less' on his way to destroy the Seanchan (TGS49). I suspect he keeps it because he is now thinking of himself as a near-Tinker/Tuatha'an.

 

The sword you mention has (AFAIK) been confirmed as Justice, the sword of Artur Hawkwing.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/justice.html

 

(Edit: I knew I'd spelt that wrong.. )

[randsc]

Fundamentally, the problem with Egwene and the Aes Sedai trying to guide Rand is that it simply isn't their place.

 

Rand is the prophesied messiah. They acknowledge this. He is the fulfillment of their religion. And still Egwene, from the lofty vantage of her 19 years, should "guide" him.

 

This is like if Jesus came back, but the Pope tried to tell him what to do. Actually, it's worse than that. It's like Jesus came back, and a first-year seminarian tried to tell him what to do.

 

I think Zen Rand is too mellowed to do it, but I would love to see Egwene publically humiliated before all the rulers of the world.

[Crossroad]

None of what has been discuss here is relevant. Rand will give everyone and ultimatum, support me or he will walks. No big speech, no ranting and raving, just something plain and simple.

[JohnnyBeGood]

My take on all this Rand vrs Egwene is rand really does not care what she plans. Only that she makes them and shows up with the kings, queens and there army’s where he tells her to, that is the key to his plan the meeting place. I think he plans on being real nice and polite listen to all the arguments when he shows up. Then telling them sense it is him who is going to fight the DO and die he is going to do it the best he can and on his own terms and that Breaking the seals at his choosing and trying to reseal the bore is are his options. He will state that he needs the armies to cover his back and fight the shadow spawn while he is doing this and will need the channelers to help in resealing the bore. Then he points out by the way there just happens to be a portal stone over there starts channeling and says welcome to Shayol Ghul

 

And what happens to the rest 4/5 of the book. Thats maybe 12-15 Chapters if you stretch it. I don´t think Rand needs to be that rash and idiotic even if it seems cool. If he has by then formed an workable Plan he will be able to gain Egwene´s help and that of the other Monarchs/Powers present.

 

From the way Rand acted when they meet she can not be sure if he is sane or not. Her Dream leads her to believe that it is a bad idea to break the seals. But he can prove he is not insane, that she can trust him and that there is workable Plan she will help.

[AutomatedTeller]

I really don't think it's going to be dramatic like that.

 

A battle of wills is what happened LAST time. Cooperation is the key.

 

Rand will have a hard time persuading them that he's right, then Moiraine will show up and say "yup, he's right, and then he has to do x, y and z. Hi Rand."

 

Around then, Nynaeve will realize that Lan is attacking and will make an impassioned speech about how the white tower can make up for not helping Malkier and will lead a bunch of sisters and Asha'man to save Lan's butt.

 

Then, of course, Mat shows up with his "trollocs burned caemlyn down, but I beat them up. Btw, I have cannons and a ton more mercenaries. And, oh, btw - Tuon decided to attack the White Tower, too. Can i go get my wife?"

 

ok, got a little silly there...

[TheAngryDruid]

Between the bonded AS and the ones sworn to him he has over 70 AS he can call on.

 

Where are you getting that number?

 

Elaida sent 51 sisters to destroy the Black Tower.

The remnants of Coiren's delegation to Cairhien (13+).

Merana's delegation (9).

Bera, Kiruna and Alanna

Cadsuane and her crew (at least 4 left).

 

Now, while that's technically over 70, a good number of those sisters aren't available to Rand on a whim. Seonid and Masuri are with Perrin, Alanna is elsewhere, Logaine and his men are who-knows-where, etc.

 

Still, a mixed group of 50 fresh channellers might still be considered 'large' from Ituralde's standpoint.

 

-- dwn

 

Nice numbers. I thought there were 39 in Coirien's delegation. 3 dead, Galina captured. Over 20 that Verin compulsed and had sworn to Rand + the three cured by Flinn. The rest and Katerine finally got back to TV. It could be down to 13 by now, as some have bit the dust (Elza). But I thought the number still around was higher.

 

The numbers were: 39 total. 33 with Galina (13 Red, 11 White, 9 Green). Six with Coirien (1 Gray, 2 Red, 1 Green, 1 White, 1 Brown).

Of these 39, 3 were killed, 1 captured by the Shaido (Galina), 23 captured by Rand (19 sworn + 3 stilled + Katerine who later escaped), and 12 more made it out. All 22 swore to Rand. I don't think we've had 9 of those die. The only one I can think of is Elza.

 

I can't remember, but I think some AS may have died at Maradon, regardless, we had:

 

a) 51 from Elaida's raid on the BT bonded.

b) 22 captured from Coirien's/Galina's embassy (19 sworn + 3 stilled/healed). I think the only losses have been Elza (black) and probably Fera (White/Black) has fled now, as she was on Eggy's list. 20 left.

c) 9 of Dumai's Wells (some of Merana's 9 were sent away by Bera/Kiruna to shepard the TR girls: Demira, Valinde, Kairen, Berencia, some didn't make it or left before arrival): Bera, Kiruna, Alanna, Merana, Faeldrin, Rafela, Masuri, Seonid, Verin). 8 left. 2 w/ Perrin.

d) Cadsuane + whomever is left from her group (Samitsu, Niande, Corele, Merise, all alive) (Kumira, Daigian dead). I think that is 5 more.

 

So, I think that is: 51 + 20 + 8 + 5 = 83. Some are in Cairhien (Samitsu, Sashelle), some with Perin (Masuri, Seonid), but still, he does have plenty to choose from).

--------------------------------

 

I guess the best that can be said for Rand's thinking is that he wants to ensure the rulers accept his terms (peace) first, and doesn't want to risk fixing the BT before he has it. He also hasn't helped Lan yet.

 

Regarding Egwene, I think it likely that she may be the only one solidly opposed to his plan. The Borderlanders, Darlin, and Gregorin will at least listen, and they've all had more experience with Buddha Rand that Eggy has. Elayne and Nynaeve were already lukewarm. Perrin is with him. The Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs will at least hear him out, and Avi will likely be for the Peace, and is likely to trust Rand. Almen Bunt and his farmers have seen the Apples. And if Mat ever gets there, we know how he'll roll.

 

And this is the funny part, Eggy is thinking she is gathering forces to oppose Rand to show him a "show of force" to oppose his idea, when likely, it will be exactly the opposite.

[Bob T Dwarf]

<snip>

ok, got a little silly there...

 

Not really.

 

There are quite a few important things happening near simultaneously.

 

Fortuona *may* be attacking Tar Valon again.

Shadowspawn are invading Caemlyn.

Lan is charging into 150,000 Trollocs etc. at Tarwin's Gap.

Mat, Thom, and Moiraine are making their way back from the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

A whole lot of folks who desperately need to be elsewhere are hanging out in a field somewhere.

 

It's unlikely that there will be time for any prolonged confrontation at Merrilor.

 

It's likely to be, "WHAT??? OK, You go here. You go there. You guys do this. You guys do that." By the time the initial dust settles, Rand will have made his leadership a fait accompli.