Discuss The Full Book

[johthohar]

No, it's not a dead argument. You don't parade an unarmed, defenseless prisoner, after capture, regardless of his crimes. You issue statements informing of his capture and spread the news, to avoid a panic.

 

It is widely known that prisoners have rights, such as the right to a trial, legal representation, food, water, shelter and, most importantly, they have the right to privacy just like everyone else (hence the reason why no cameras are allowed into a courtroom in session).

 

Logain's treatment by being paraded, while caged and chained is an extremely barbaric practice that would attempt against the fundamental, inalienable right to human dignity (one of the most important HR's) in every possible way.

 

No use providing this example twice and include it in all the examples I provided above. But this does serve as major evidence of the way Logain was subjected to cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment, which was completely unnecessary at that point, since he had already been captured and shielded. No need for that, at all. And not only him, since the innkeep at Whitebridge says that at least another false Dragon was paraded in similar fashion; in this case a non-channeler who wanted to declare himself king, a few years earlier.

 

Logain had the right of being taken quietly and swiftly into Tar Valon, stand trial, have sentence delivered and executed. There was no reason to submit him to such suffering and pain.

 

This would clearly seem to indicate that the White Tower would do the same to all false Dragons, as a means to make an example of them and try to discourage any others from attempting them, through intimidation (again, that word. Seems to go hand in hand with Tar Valon, it would seem).

 

You're making me want to pull my hair out, guy. Why you continue to insist on superimposing today's human rights standards on to the world of the Wheel of Time boggles my mind. It's not a valid comparison. We know, we know. You're work in the field makes you disgusted with the actions of various Aes Sedai and the White Tower in general. But, for instance, you say Logain's treatment in being paraded across the countryside was "barbaric". But this is happening in the same time period in the same world where public hangings, beatings, floggings, etc. are sanctioned and performed by some of the more just governments in the WoT! Everybody gets that you hate the Aes Sedai. Most of us do, at least in general. But you're addressing the issue in entirely the wrong way. You just can't compare today's world with the world of the WoT. All of the UN declarations and what not that you keep citing DO NOT apply to this fantasy series! If I go down a list of rulers from the series, good or bad, I would be willing to bet that ninety percent, if not all, of them are guilty of most of the human rights violations you are accusing the White Tower of! To continue with that comparison is completely pointless.

 

I'm not even going to address the rest of your post. Either you aren't understanding what Mr Ares is saying or you are completely ignoring him. So frustrated.

[blazetheearth]

You don't parade an unarmed, defenseless prisoner, after capture, regardless of his crimes. You issue statements informing of his capture and spread the news, to avoid a panic.

 

It is widely known that prisoners have rights, such as the right to a trial, legal representation, food, water, shelter and, most importantly, they have the right to privacy just like everyone else (hence the reason why no cameras are allowed into a courtroom in session).

 

Logain's treatment by being paraded, while caged and chained is an extremely barbaric practice that would attempt against the fundamental, inalienable right to human dignity (one of the most important HR's) in every possible way.

 

 

While I agree with the sentiment expressed in this statement, I also understand just how unrealistic an expectation this is. We do not see this in our own HR practices, and therefore to expect the people of Randland to do this is.

 

And we do not see this among modern courts and legal systems, or else there would not be so many hours of footage of the O.J. trial, or the Menendez trial, and we do have a channel called "CourtTV". The minutes of any court session placed in public record (not private) unless sealed by judges order. Or to look at something on the scale of Logain, by comparison Saddam Hussien's HR were violated to a much greater extent. Logain was not paraded in boxershorts and a month old scraggly beard, by you can still (not just a one time drive through town) see pictures of Hussien like this one the internet. If prisoner's right to privacy were respected in the way you seem to indicate then there would be no local news segments of people being led into courthouses in hand cuffs, jacket over their heads or not, and their names would not be released to the press. When a grand jury indictment is levied, it gets put into public record, which is how the press can sometimes show up at places before the cops, and video the arrest. No privacy there.

 

Like I said I agree with the sentiment (and I agree that the Aes Sedai have done a much worse job of being what they are supposed to be, than the Seanchan have), but I definitely think that the 'prisoner's right to privacy' is one that it is unreasonable to expect from them. And I doubt that even the AoL Aes Sedai could or would have lived up to that expectation, not when they marked any law-breaking channeler in a manner visible to all (Ageless face).

[Darth Krewl]

You're making me want to pull my hair out, guy.

 

I'm not even going to address the rest of your post. Either you aren't understanding what Mr Ares is saying or you are completely ignoring him. So frustrated.

 

Relax, "guy".

 

Far as I know, nobody has ever forced you to reply to my posts. I wasn't imposing any views on anyone. Mr Ares wanted examples from the books, I provided them for him. That's all there is to it. So, have a nice day and chill.

 

While I agree with the sentiment expressed in this statement, I also understand just how unrealistic an expectation this is. We do not see this in our own HR practices, and therefore to expect the people of Randland to do this is.

 

Of course it is. I can't stress this enough: my point is simply that the Aes Sedai have forgotten their ways of old and their practices are not helping the cause of the Light too much. At least from my PoV.

 

And we do not see this among modern courts and legal systems, or else there would not be so many hours of footage of the O.J. trial, or the Menendez trial, and we do have a channel called "CourtTV".

 

This is dependent on the country you live in. While I certainly have heard that the media is quite sensationalistic in the USA, since I don't live there, I have no say in the matter. Suffice to say that, in some countries, trials are kept completely private and away from the public eye, except for recounts on journals and such, so that transparent disclosure of the proceedings can be provided.

 

The minutes of any court session placed in public record (not private) unless sealed by judges order. Or to look at something on the scale of Logain, by comparison Saddam Hussien's HR were violated to a much greater extent. Logain was not paraded in boxershorts and a month old scraggly beard, by you can still (not just a one time drive through town) see pictures of Hussien like this one the internet. If prisoner's right to privacy were respected in the way you seem to indicate then there would be no local news segments of people being led into courthouses in hand cuffs, jacket over their heads or not, and their names would not be released to the press. When a grand jury indictment is levied, it gets put into public record, which is how the press can sometimes show up at places before the cops, and video the arrest. No privacy there.

 

Again, the first part is related to legality and disclosure, which is demanded in a state of democracy, to avoid any potential manipulation of a trial and corruption...at least on paper, that is. As for Saddam's odyssey, I was just thinking about that, precisely, but again, was the US right in their intervention of Iraq? There were no WMD's as per the UN's inspection and even Bush offered a public apology to the world at large, acknowledging that the US had made a mistake. Does this make it right? Not by a long shot, IMO, as the Bush administration was certainly guilty of many violations (including Saddam's public exhibition and execution).

 

Like I said I agree with the sentiment (and I agree that the Aes Sedai have done a much worse job of being what they are supposed to be, than the Seanchan have), but I definitely think that the 'prisoner's right to privacy' is one that it is unreasonable to expect from them. And I doubt that even the AoL Aes Sedai could or would have lived up to that expectation, not when they marked any law-breaking channeler in a manner visible to all (Ageless face).

 

Well, that's a very interesting point, because the ageless face marked you as a past offender, but didn't mean that you wouldn't be released and couldn't go on living your life. Besides, having sworn oaths before the Binding Rod prevented you from becoming a repeat offender (at least, to my understanding), meaning that society didn't necessarily have to shun or fear you, once subjected to trial and convicted, as you couldn't do it again. A much more humane way to punish criminals, IMO.

[blazetheearth]

The minutes of any court session placed in public record (not private) unless sealed by judges order. Or to look at something on the scale of Logain, by comparison Saddam Hussien's HR were violated to a much greater extent. Logain was not paraded in boxershorts and a month old scraggly beard, by you can still (not just a one time drive through town) see pictures of Hussien like this one the internet. If prisoner's right to privacy were respected in the way you seem to indicate then there would be no local news segments of people being led into courthouses in hand cuffs, jacket over their heads or not, and their names would not be released to the press. When a grand jury indictment is levied, it gets put into public record, which is how the press can sometimes show up at places before the cops, and video the arrest. No privacy there.

 

Again, the first part is related to legality and disclosure, which is demanded in a state of democracy, to avoid any potential manipulation of a trial and corruption...at least on paper, that is. As for Saddam's odyssey, I was just thinking about that, precisely, but again, was the US right in their intervention of Iraq? There were no WMD's as per the UN's inspection and even Bush offered a public apology to the world at large, acknowledging that the US had made a mistake. Does this make it right? Not by a long shot, IMO, as the Bush administration was certainly guilty of many violations (including Saddam's public exhibition and execution).

 

 

I agree. As I said, Saddam suffered a much greater infringement on his HR than Logain did (notice I did not state that Logain's HR was not infringed upon), but as you said "in a state of democracy" which I have yet to see in modern times. I didn't say that you were wrong to want HR to be shown for people in WOT, I just think that it is unreasonable to expect better of any Monarchistic society than what a supposedly 'free' offers. The thing I find the most disappointing about the whole thing is that most of the rest of Randland, which mostly operate under a Hereditary Monarchy system, seem to be more focused on HR than the only thing close to even a Republican Monarchy system. (i.e. the White Tower). But the parallel's to our world do apply in that the Greek's instituted democracy over 2000 years ago, but were conquered by the Romans, then the Romans adopted something similar to or modern concept of a Republic (and the Roman Empire's governmental set up is the most similar to what we see in the White Tower (i.e. a select few, Senators(or the Sitters) choose a Caeser (or Amrylin) that serves for life, and blood connection (or Ajah) is no guarantee of the 'chosen' successor following the previous leader). But then the concept of that type of government was lost for over a thousand years, and was not resurrected until a handful of landowners in the New World decided that they needed a better way than Monarchy (Heriditary or Republican) and limited the term the one elected to the office, by those select few who had a vote to elect, could only serve as leader for a predetermined period of time. I don't think that any fantasy series (or the characters in it should be held to current standard of behavior for 'enlightened' societies. In many of your other arguments, on other threads, I have agreed with you, but in each one of those cases you seem to be stating that the character behaved in a certain way which you find arrogant or self-interest absorbed (like both Eggy and Elayne). In this I cannot find fault with how the Aes Sedai behaved by showing off Logain, because they have no history to point the way for them. HR issues are a completely modern issue. If you can cite a real world reference to a Republican Monarchy (not a Republic, which has a limited term for it's ruler) that tried to extend the same human rights that you mentioned to any criminal within their territory then I might cede the point, but I don't think you will find that example. I can agree that it was wrong to parade Logain in around without agreeing that the WT had the intent of cruelty or even that it was (or seemed) cruel in the context of the time. If you are stating that all of our current definitions of human rights should be applied to all of the actions that came before us (or that occurred in fantasy writing), I have to say, 'Why?' When have they had the chance to learn what we have? Holding them to the standard of our experience is inconsiderate of their circumstances. It seems your are boiling this argument down to black and white, but as Morgase tells us (and Galad) in ToM,,,[paraphrase]...'The world is not black and white, but infinite shades of grey."

[Darth Krewl]

I agree. As I said, Saddam suffered a much greater infringement on his HR than Logain did (notice I did not state that Logain's HR was not infringed upon), but as you said "in a state of democracy" which I have yet to see in modern times...

 

I agree with most of what you've said and, as I told Khalika and johthohar before, I'm the first to admit that modern day HR, which don't even work as they should in real life, IMO, have no bearing on a fantasy tale, such as WoT.

 

Like I said on my last post to Mr Ares, my whole point is that I personally perceive the Aes Sedai much more as part of the problem than the solution and that, in my book, they're no better than the Seanchan in many more ways than one. Because this whole thing started when I said that I feel like the Aes Sedai of the Third Age have forsaken their ways and that I'm positive that, during the Age of Legends, the Hall of the Servants must have observed Human Rights, in what unarguably was a much more advanced and civilized society.

 

Then, our good Mr Ares here, started insisting that I had to present evidence to support my case. As you can see, I provided plenty of it and highly detailed as well, just to indulge him. Alas that seems to have been counterproductive, since now it would seem that I am insisting that the Third Age WoT world observed and reinforced Human Rights, on a document similar to the UN Universal Declaration of HR.

 

As fate would have it, I like A Song of Ice and Fire far better than The Wheel of Time and, if you've read Martin's books, you'll see that HR are even far more absent in Martin's world than Jordan's; a much more grayish world than WoT's, precisely. So, for me to pretend that anyone would uphold HR as we know them in the WoT world would be ridiculous, of course, and it was never my intention. I was just presenting the evidence demanded of me, to end that futile debate and move on to more interesting things.

[blazetheearth]

I agree. As I said, Saddam suffered a much greater infringement on his HR than Logain did (notice I did not state that Logain's HR was not infringed upon), but as you said "in a state of democracy" which I have yet to see in modern times...

 

I agree with most of what you've said and, as I told Khalika and johthohar before, I'm the first to admit that modern day HR, which don't even work as they should in real life, IMO, have no bearing on a fantasy tale, such as WoT.

 

Like I said on my last post to Mr Ares, my whole point is that I personally perceive the Aes Sedai much more as part of the problem than the solution and that, in my book, they're no better than the Seanchan in many more ways than one. Because this whole thing started when I said that I feel like the Aes Sedai of the Third Age have forsaken their ways and that I'm positive that, during the Age of Legends, the Hall of the Servants must have observed Human Rights, in what unarguably was a much more advanced and civilized society.

 

Then, our good Mr Ares here, started insisting that I had to present evidence to support my case. As you can see, I provided plenty of it and highly detailed as well, just to indulge him. Alas that seems to have been counterproductive, since now it would seem that I am insisting that the Third Age WoT world observed and reinforced Human Rights, on a document similar to the UN Universal Declaration of HR.

 

As fate would have it, I like A Song of Ice and Fire far better than The Wheel of Time and, if you've read Martin's books, you'll see that HR are even far more absent in Martin's world than Jordan's; a much more grayish world than WoT's, precisely. So, for me to pretend that anyone would uphold HR as we know them in the WoT world would be ridiculous, of course, and it was never my intention. I was just presenting the evidence demanded of me, to end that futile debate and move on to more interesting things.

 

 

Yes, I understand and have no interest in furthering debate on the subject (which IMO has taken up too many posts already). I was only expressing my views on the most recent point posted. Considering your comments that I have quoted, I think the only real difference of opinion that we have is on whether or not the AS in AoL were as enlightened about HR as our modern world tries to be. I don't think that they were (more humane than we see 3000 years later certainly) as 'enlightened' as you think. Both are simply matters of opinion and not truly subject to proof or refute from the 'evidence' that is available from the books, so I'll leave it there.

 

After all you know what they say about opinions....

 

P.S. As I said in my previous post, I definitely agree that the current Aes Sedai have not lived up to what the founders of the White Tower intended them to be, which I believe was the original point.

[Kahlika]

Heh I admit I typed up a big response, largely because I feel my other one was misconstructed, but I'll leave most of it out unless you particularly want a legal analysis point by point (and who wouldn't!?).

 

I did want to clarify that my point was that the Aes Sedai treatment of men who can channel isn't in breach of the Declaration of Human Rights because Article 29(2) allows for things that would otherwise be breaches to occur if they're done according to law and with a purpose of protecting the rights of other people or of greater society. One persons rights can be infringed for the greater good of other people's rights or society. Nor is it torture if you examine he definition of torture and so on.

 

As such the gentling of men who can channel, which was done by Tower Law (excepting cases where it wasn't those would be breaches e.g. the Vileness), to protect the rights of other people (their right to life and to freedom from fear) was entirely in line with the Declaration.

 

In having gone through all the alleged breaches I couldn't really find many, and those that occured such as the attempts to break Egwene, Rand in a box, the plan to execute everyone at the Black Tower can all be pinned on Elaida and were clearly written as devices to show how unfit for rule she was. Aside from those examples though none of the other ones cited can be considered to constitute a breach of human rights, while they each meet some of the criteria none of them meet all of the criteria needed to establish a particular breach, in some cases right you assert don't even exist.

 

On the whole I think you're objecting to the fact that Aes Sedai are arrogant, interfering, rude and disrespectful to people. And while you're of course entitled to that if that's all you can see, being those things isn't illegal, and to conflate arrogance and rudeness and human rights abuses as you have done is highly problematic and risks trivialising the nature of true human rights abuses.

[Darth Krewl]

Yes, I understand and have no interest in furthering debate on the subject (which IMO has taken up too many posts already). I was only expressing my views on the most recent point posted. Considering your comments that I have quoted, I think the only real difference of opinion that we have is on whether or not the AS in AoL were as enlightened about HR as our modern world tries to be. I don't think that they were (more humane than we see 3000 years later certainly) as 'enlightened' as you think. Both are simply matters of opinion and not truly subject to proof or refute from the 'evidence' that is available from the books, so I'll leave it there.

 

After all you know what they say about opinions....

 

P.S. As I said in my previous post, I definitely agree that the current Aes Sedai have not lived up to what the founders of the White Tower intended them to be, which I believe was the original point.

 

Well, based on what I gather from the description of the AoL found in the Guide or White Book, that period strikes me as what you could call "perfect utopia". To my understanding all were equals, materialism was practically non-existent and prestige was earned through the famous third name (similar to Rome, actually), based on your service to society at large.

 

So, in a society such as this, I would find it safe to assume that the human (and even non-human, for Ogier and Nyms, alike) must have been observed and upheld even better than in our real world. Could be debatable, of course, since this is just my take on the AoL and Jordan didn't provide such a detailed recount of that period (I would've loved to read some books on the AoL, btw) like the one we're getting from the Third Age, all we can do is speculate, based on the general facts that he did described.

 

But, we do agree on the fact that, regardless on human rights awareness, the Aes Sedai of the Third Age are a far cry from their counterparts from the AoL, yep.

 

I did want to clarify that my point was that the Aes Sedai treatment of men who can channel isn't in breach of the Declaration of Human Rights because Article 29(2) allows for things that would otherwise be breaches to occur if they're done according to law and with a purpose of protecting the rights of other people or of greater society. One persons rights can be infringed for the greater good of other people's rights or society. Nor is it torture if you examine he definition of torture and so on.

 

As such the gentling of men who can channel, which was done by Tower Law (excepting cases where it wasn't those would be breaches e.g. the Vileness), to protect the rights of other people (their right to life and to freedom from fear) was entirely in line with the Declaration.

 

Yep, you made that point perfectly clear with your previous post concerning this topic. And I agree. I just contested that, once a dangerous, insane criminal is considered to be a threat no more, they are released (even if kept under close surveillance) which doesn't hold true for Logain, in a fictional setting where the danger he represented was his ability to channel; taken away from him after he was severed.

 

In having gone through all the alleged breaches I couldn't really find many, and those that occured such as the attempts to break Egwene, Rand in a box, the plan to execute everyone at the Black Tower can all be pinned on Elaida and were clearly written as devices to show how unfit for rule she was. Aside from those examples though none of the other ones cited can be considered to constitute a breach of human rights, while they each meet some of the criteria none of them meet all of the criteria needed to establish a particular breach, in some cases right you assert don't even exist.

 

Well, in my defense I will say that I have known of situations similar to those I described that were considered strong cases on HR violations and pursued via filed complaints and the issuing of pertaining recommendations. Now, while, in some cases, sanctions may have been mild (a slap in the hand, if you will) they were applied and reinforced. I'd be more than happy to provide you with links (such as the one below) should you wish to confirm that I have not spoken lightly nor made anything up with my examples. Please, just let me know.

 

On the whole I think you're objecting to the fact that Aes Sedai are arrogant, interfering, rude and disrespectful to people. And while you're of course entitled to that if that's all you can see, being those things isn't illegal, and to conflate arrogance and rudeness and human rights abuses as you have done is highly problematic and risks trivialising the nature of true human rights abuses.

 

Not really, no. My point is far more complex than that, actually. It is about the deterioration of the vision that the Hall of the Servants may have suffered (based on my understanding of the duties and affairs of Aes Sedai in the AoL, as stated above, on my reply to Ishadar) and the actual abuse of power of Third Age Aes Sedai.

 

Because, since "servants of all" would be akin to saying public officials or servants, as they are called in some countries (though people may disagree, depending on personal views, naturally), their ways do include bullying, harassment, coercion, intimidation and even the use of force (no matter how mildly) to impose their will on others and get their way, thus in effect, qualifying as actual abuse of power.

 

As for trivializing human rights, well, I guess the following example would certainly prove that Aes Sedai "arrogance" and "rudeness" (as described in my examples) do, in fact, constitute a major human rights violation, that should be punishable by law, as this example of a seemingly trivial every day occurrence in schools (that we all may have experienced on side or the other) clearly indicates:

 

CGCP/231/10

40% of school kids are victims of Bullying

 

The president of the Mexican National Human Rights Commission, Raúl Plascencia Villanueva, pointed out the need for joining efforts and developing new strategies in order to prevent and eradicate the phenomenon of harassment at school, known as bullying. Given the increased number of these acts of physical and emotional violence, he considered the reinforcement of legal mechanisms to be a necessary measure in order to combat this antisocial behavior and remind people that it is not right.

 

When he inaugurated the Forum for an education without Bullying, Plascencia Villanueva declared that 40% of elementary and secondary school kids are subject to such offenses in both public and private institutions. He announced that there is a new variation of this phenomenon known as cyberbullying, in which some people intend to harm, change and damage the image of minors through websites included within social networks. He therefore called upon society and government to join efforts in order to add human rights to the common agenda and turn the country we have been longing for during 200 years into a reality.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

So, as you can clearly see, I'm not trivializing anything. Though I do admit that this is a rather delicate and somewhat obscure subject, it is a rather serious one and, well, if that bullying is considered as a serious offense in schools, I would guess it's pretty safe to assume that said matters would be considered just as serious offenses amongst fully grown people as well.

 

You can find the entire document here:

 

http://cndh.org.mx/cartnews/2010/news211.html

[lsm]

interesting read these last 5-6 pages... seems like a lot of debate on this forum stems from various moral viewpoints

 

well since i didn't read the first 50ish pages has anyone wondered if everyone in randland are now going to be able to win at snakes and ladders? or was that just a counting error on olver, or (how i first saw it) just a way to make the timeline equal between mat/tom/moir and caemlyn

[Mystraka]

You're making me want to pull my hair out, guy.

 

I'm not even going to address the rest of your post. Either you aren't understanding what Mr Ares is saying or you are completely ignoring him. So frustrated.

 

Relax, "guy".

 

Far as I know, nobody has ever forced you to reply to my posts. I wasn't imposing any views on anyone. Mr Ares wanted examples from the books, I provided them for him. That's all there is to it. So, have a nice day and chill.

 

While I agree with the sentiment expressed in this statement, I also understand just how unrealistic an expectation this is. We do not see this in our own HR practices, and therefore to expect the people of Randland to do this is.

 

Of course it is. I can't stress this enough: my point is simply that the Aes Sedai have forgotten their ways of old and their practices are not helping the cause of the Light too much. At least from my PoV.

 

And we do not see this among modern courts and legal systems, or else there would not be so many hours of footage of the O.J. trial, or the Menendez trial, and we do have a channel called "CourtTV".

 

This is dependent on the country you live in. While I certainly have heard that the media is quite sensationalistic in the USA, since I don't live there, I have no say in the matter. Suffice to say that, in some countries, trials are kept completely private and away from the public eye, except for recounts on journals and such, so that transparent disclosure of the proceedings can be provided.

 

The minutes of any court session placed in public record (not private) unless sealed by judges order. Or to look at something on the scale of Logain, by comparison Saddam Hussien's HR were violated to a much greater extent. Logain was not paraded in boxershorts and a month old scraggly beard, by you can still (not just a one time drive through town) see pictures of Hussien like this one the internet. If prisoner's right to privacy were respected in the way you seem to indicate then there would be no local news segments of people being led into courthouses in hand cuffs, jacket over their heads or not, and their names would not be released to the press. When a grand jury indictment is levied, it gets put into public record, which is how the press can sometimes show up at places before the cops, and video the arrest. No privacy there.

 

Again, the first part is related to legality and disclosure, which is demanded in a state of democracy, to avoid any potential manipulation of a trial and corruption...at least on paper, that is. As for Saddam's odyssey, I was just thinking about that, precisely, but again, was the US right in their intervention of Iraq? There were no WMD's as per the UN's inspection and even Bush offered a public apology to the world at large, acknowledging that the US had made a mistake. Does this make it right? Not by a long shot, IMO, as the Bush administration was certainly guilty of many violations (including Saddam's public exhibition and execution).

 

Like I said I agree with the sentiment (and I agree that the Aes Sedai have done a much worse job of being what they are supposed to be, than the Seanchan have), but I definitely think that the 'prisoner's right to privacy' is one that it is unreasonable to expect from them. And I doubt that even the AoL Aes Sedai could or would have lived up to that expectation, not when they marked any law-breaking channeler in a manner visible to all (Ageless face).

 

Well, that's a very interesting point, because the ageless face marked you as a past offender, but didn't mean that you wouldn't be released and couldn't go on living your life. Besides, having sworn oaths before the Binding Rod prevented you from becoming a repeat offender (at least, to my understanding), meaning that society didn't necessarily have to shun or fear you, once subjected to trial and convicted, as you couldn't do it again. A much more humane way to punish criminals, IMO.

 

 

I fail to see how removing someones freedom of choice melds with your exaggerared/professed views on HR.

[daddacool]

 

I find it odd how powerful the damane are perceived as, on the one hand we have the Seanchan sweeping all before them but on the other even Bornhold manages to kill one with archers. A few good Two Rivers long bowmen should be able to put paid to the Seanchan. And I mean that as only half a joke. It's impossible to postulate how channelers were organised in the the lands the Seanchan conquered but things over this side of the ocean are a bit different, Avi's trip through the columns aside. It's worth noting that in TGH, one of the flicker futures Rand sees whilst shifting the portal stone to Toman's Head shows the Seanchan conquering the land but failing to hold the hoards of Trollocs back and being utterly defeated. Frankly all Egwene has to do is convince everyone to swear on the Oath Rod, regardless of whether they're kin, knitting circle or whatever and then the Seanchan will have an extremely limited pool to replace a dead demane from.

By getting all WO, Kin, Accepted, Novices and Windfinders to swear on the OR, you limit their effectiveness in the fight against the Seanchan while doing nothing to reduce the chances of them ending up as damane. You also hand the advantage to the enemy - the Seanchan would have unrestricted use of channelers in combat, the Westlands wouldn't. Now, a channeler can die to an arrow, the same as anyone else, but as they are capable of producing shields it is harder to kill them that way.

But damane who have sworn the three oaths can't be used in battle can they? They can dig around for ore but that's not much use. Take your point about the shields though.

[Mr Ares]

No, my point is that you haven't provided the evidence. I've told you before not to tell me what I mean.

 

I can only interpret things the way my ample or narrow understanding allows me to interpret them. So please, try to use clear, concise language to get your point across, so that misunderstandings such as these can avoided. Or, if the problem for you is my speech, style or if my words rub you the wrong way, then just stop addressing me.

 

Either way, do not ever again presume that you can tell me what I can say and what I cannot say. Nothing has granted you that right over me or anyone else, for that matter.

I have every right for my words to be my own, without you telling me what I actually said. If my meaning is unclear, simply ask and I will attempt to clarify. I will not stand for you twisting my words in the way you have been.

 

You say the AS are guilty of cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment of male channelers. Evidence to support that would be instances from the books of cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment of male channelers by AS. Quoting from UN declarations might clarify what you consider to be cruel, inhumane or degrading, but it doesn't answer my question of when the AS act in that way. As has already been pointed out, Elaida's treatment of Rand could be seen to qualify. It is also very much the exception to the rule. They do not treat male channelers like that, they treated Rand like that, and did so for reasons other than him being a male channeler. Thus you have provided no evidence to suport your point.

 

I did provide the example of the words Tam al'Thor used to describe Cadsuane Melaidrhin's bully ways in TGS, albeit briefly (seemed to be good enough for Ishadar and Khalika, for instance, though). But in case you missed it or if it wasn't clear enough for you, here is the scene from the top of my head:

 

After being almost killed by Rand, Tam storms into Cadsuane's room in the Stone of Tear. The woman holds him with Air (that is cruel, inhumane, degrading treatment, because she is using abusive means at her disposal to inflict damage upon a third party and impose her will on them. It's called coercion and intimidation) so that Tam tells her where Rand has gone (which amounts to torture, which in turn, amounts to inhuman, degrading treatment, since according to the UN HR Declaration, any means such as coercion or intimidation to extract information from a person, constitutes a form of torture; the single gravest forms of cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment, other than murder.).

 

A concerned Min pleads with Cadsuane to let go of Tam. The Aes Sedai refuses. Tam holds her gaze and tells Min something along the lines of knowing the difference between a bully who likes to abuse others to get their way in a tavern, common room or something similar and those who only seek answers. It's not until this point that Cadsuane becomes aware of the wrong she's doing to the poor, non-channeling farmer (who, compared to a channeler, would fit into a vulnerable group, as all those who are short-handed - children, seniors, short people, mentally challenged, etc. - because channelers possess abilities that provide them with an advantage over their non-channeling peers and any abuse of said abilities to coerce, intimidate, torture or inflict any kind of damage - or threaten to do it - by using said superior abilities, constitutes...you guessed it: a major human rights violation) and let's go of him.

 

Not enough? Well, in that case there's a plethora of examples from this series that can be used...

 

How about the many times that Aes Sedai attempted to hurl stuff at Mat, putting his well-being at risk and not giving a hoot about it, to prove the efficacy of his medallion?

 

That is abusive conduct, unforgivable in any way, shape or form, given that, like Tam, Mat is no channeler and could have not defended himself from any potential damage that the hurling of objects in his direction by the Trakand girl, Adeleas and her sister (don't remember her name) had he not had the medallion. This would also qualify as abuse of a person shielded by the "vulnerable group" tag.

 

How about Lan threatening to kill some innocent folk in Jarra I believe, in TDR, because they had discovered Moiraine's true identity and her, having to intervene, to save that poor person(s)?

 

Since Mandragoran serves the White Tower, then for all legal intents and purposes, the man is officially attached to the organization of the Aes Sedai. Hence, any and all damage(s) he could have inflicted upon innocent, third parties would fall squarely on the shoulders of the Tower, as I've already explained.

 

There's also Rand's treatment after captured by Elaida, obviously.

 

There is also plenty of examples of Aes Sedai imposing their will, intimidating and coercing people, just because of their special abilities and station; something that, for all intents and purposes, constitutes an abuse of authority, which constitutes heavily sanctioned human rights violation. Jocelin's treatment of Mat in the kitchen at Setalle Anan's inn (and her attempt at intimidating him, via her Warder(s)) is the perfect example of this, because again intimidation, by any means at your disposal, is another BIG no-no in HR.

This is all well and good, but it's not what I asked for. Lan is not an AS, nor are the people of Jarra male channelers. Tam al'Thor is not a male channeler, nor is Mat Cauthon. Rand is, but his treatment is not representative of how male channelers are treated in general. Now, I have already said I don't think that much of AS - they often are bullies, and have a great many failings - but let us go back to the beginning of this debate, what was said to spark it off. You said "...there's no need to hunt male channelers as wild animals anymore." My response was: "Male channelers were never hunted like animals by the AS." To which you replied: "According to the U.N's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, any person who is seen as less than human and subjected to cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment is being treated like an animal." So what we have establisehd is that at the root of this argument, I am asking you to justify your views on AS treating male channelers like animals. That is what I am interested in. You clearly know a fair bit about human rights laws, which, interesting though it might be in its own way, is not hugely relevant to the point. The point I am asking you to justify is quite specific: when have AS treated male channelers in a cruel, inhumane or degrading fashion. I accept the AS have many failings, I do not dispute that there conduct is not above reproach, that much of it would run afoul of the UN's Declaration of Human Rights. But those points do not in and of themselves justify your comments.

 

 

Were it the Seanchan, the Questioners of the Whitecloaks or Darkfriends, obviously, that we were talking about here, then things would be different. Because of what they represent, simple as that. Hence, my point that the White Tower is worse than the Seanchan. The former tries to come out as the champions of the Light, whereas their actions contradict this notion in every conceivable way, IMO.

All those groups, save the Darkfriends, consider themselves to be champions of the Light. In fact, the Seanchan consider their Empress to stand above the Dragon Reborn - his being the DR put him on a par with Tuon as Daughter of the Nine Moons. They expect him to kneel to the Empress. In that respect, all these groups are of a kind, and should be judged on the same terms.

 

Funny that you would demand that I don't tell you what you mean, when you're the one who started misinterpreting, misconstruing, altering, twisting and corrupting my points, in the first place lol!

 

My point has never been limited to AS treatment of male channelers, either.

Except what I took issue with initially was your statements, as quoted, about AS treatment of male channelers in particular. That is not misinterpreting, misconstruing, altering, twisting or corrupting your point. I asked you to justify one point in particular.

 

Whenever mental illness makes a person a danger to themselves and others, they have to be brought under control (using the most humane means possible; something that IMO, as I've already said countless times, the AS failed to observe) till the time they have either been rehabbed or have stopped to pose a threat.

 

At that point, once the danger has been brought under control, the person in question has the same right to freedom as all others. Meaning that, after trial, deliberation and execution of sentence, Logain had to be set free, for gentling him had prevented him from posing a danger to anyone, anymore. And yet, he was still held in the Tower and was forced to escape alongside Siuan and Leanne.

Logain was not just a male channeler. He was a False Dragon - he had raised an army and ravaged Ghealdan. So his right to freedom is the same as that of anyone else, and how many people who had raised their own armies and declared war on their home country would be walking free? He was a danger for reasons other than his ability to channel.

 

Either you aren't understanding what Mr Ares is saying or you are completely ignoring him.

I'm curious about that as well.

 

 

 

I find it odd how powerful the damane are perceived as, on the one hand we have the Seanchan sweeping all before them but on the other even Bornhold manages to kill one with archers. A few good Two Rivers long bowmen should be able to put paid to the Seanchan. And I mean that as only half a joke. It's impossible to postulate how channelers were organised in the the lands the Seanchan conquered but things over this side of the ocean are a bit different, Avi's trip through the columns aside. It's worth noting that in TGH, one of the flicker futures Rand sees whilst shifting the portal stone to Toman's Head shows the Seanchan conquering the land but failing to hold the hoards of Trollocs back and being utterly defeated. Frankly all Egwene has to do is convince everyone to swear on the Oath Rod, regardless of whether they're kin, knitting circle or whatever and then the Seanchan will have an extremely limited pool to replace a dead demane from.

By getting all WO, Kin, Accepted, Novices and Windfinders to swear on the OR, you limit their effectiveness in the fight against the Seanchan while doing nothing to reduce the chances of them ending up as damane. You also hand the advantage to the enemy - the Seanchan would have unrestricted use of channelers in combat, the Westlands wouldn't. Now, a channeler can die to an arrow, the same as anyone else, but as they are capable of producing shields it is harder to kill them that way.

But damane who have sworn the three oaths can't be used in battle can they? They can dig around for ore but that's not much use. Take your point about the shields though.

Damane who have sworn the Oaths would be of no use in battle, true. But they would be of no use in opposing the Seanchan (who would thus be the only group with unrestricted channeler use) as well as no use for the Seanchan once captured - it's a double-edged sword.

[Darth Krewl]

I fail to see how removing someones freedom of choice melds with your exaggerared/professed views on HR.

 

It's very simple.

 

You haven't removed anyone's freedom of choice. They had made their choice already. They had chosen to break the law and last time I checked people found guilty of breaking the law are punished for their crimes.

 

I have every right for my words to be my own, without you telling me what I actually said. If my meaning is unclear, simply ask and I will attempt to clarify. I will not stand for you twisting my words in the way you have been.

 

Mr Ares, I have indulged you on this debate long enough. I provided plenty of evidence, just like you requested, and yet you fail to see (I'm not asking for agreement, obviously) my point. Not to mention, respect my views, even when you disagree so strongly with them.

 

You have every right for your words to be your own, of course. But certainly not to impose them on me. I asked you to make a choice: accept my words (to which I'm entitled myself, of course) or simply ignore them. Yet you continue to press the issue. Come think of it, forget the discussion at hand, this is a human rights violation by itself. It's called harassment, in case you didn't know.

 

The mere fact that you have completely ignored what I have politely asked of you and continue to try imposing your views on me is extremely rude and disrespectful, and goes completely against the amiable and respectful manner in which users should treat one another on this forum.

 

It's good that the White Tower did seek more humane ways to deal with the madness, even if they failed. But still, that doesn't justify perceiving and treating male channelers as something less than human. And that's what I've been questioning all along: the White Tower's prejudiced and biased ways towards their male counterparts. I for one, find it sickening.

 

This quote proves that I had already accepted an explanation concerning the way Aes Sedai dealt with the madness. End of story. The highlighted parts in bold clearly explain how I feel about the way female channelers treat their male counterparts, based on what I have read and my personal take on the issue. People can agree or disagree as they wish, because everyone is entitled to their opinion,of course, but have no right to impose said opinion on me. Hence, you don't have to agree with my views, obviously. You're just gonna have to respect them. Period.

 

As for treating channelers like dogs, I guess it's okay for Aes Sedai to treat their male counterparts that way, right? Even now that the taint's been removed, they still look at them as something less than human. The White Tower is worse than the Seanchan empire in that sense.

The WT attempts to save the lives of male channelers. The Seanchan murder them out of hand. Who is more humane?

 

When did I say that the Seanchan are more humane?

 

I suggest that you read all of my posts concerning this topic, because, at no point have I said that I believe the ways of the Seanchan humane. All I've said is that I don't approve of the ways of the White Tower any more than I approve of the ways of the Seanchan and that's only my very personal opinion about this. My take has always been that, while these people refuse to change their ways and accept each others as equals (the way people from the AoL did) then they will only be playing straight into the hands of the Shadow.

 

The quotes above prove that it was you who started and derailed the topic (based on date and time), as I was discussing a completely different issue (Aviendha's visions) with completely different posters, till you asked this of me and, out of politeness, I made the mistake of replying to your question.

 

The highlighted part in bold, clearly indicates that this was my personal opinion and that I had no wish to impose it on you or anyone else, for that matter. Again, it has been you who has been harassing me, not only here but in the thread "Elanye's Arc" as well, by trying to impose your views on me. No need to ask for clarification of anyone's words, as this comes clearly across on every post you've ever addressed to me.

 

This is the last time I will ever address or quote you. And I'm going to politely ask you to stop addressing or quoting me ever again, since it's quite clear to me that you have taken this far beyond the boundaries of affable internet interaction and are trying to make this some sort of personal affair. I have reported you already and will continue to do so, should you address or quote me ever again.

[Kahlika]

Yep, you made that point perfectly clear with your previous post concerning this topic. And I agree. I just contested that, once a dangerous, insane criminal is considered to be a threat no more, they are released (even if kept under close surveillance) which doesn't hold true for Logain, in a fictional setting where the danger he represented was his ability to channel; taken away from him after he was severed.

 

Logain wasn't insane yet. He did commit other crimes in that he raised an army and participated in a civil war, those crimes weren't caused by his insanity. He could have in no way shape or form plead insanity when he was bought to trial.

 

However assuming that holding him was related to the gentling and the associated depression and not to his other crimes it was still the right thing to do. A person held on grounds of mental illness won't be released into the community until they have been able to satisfy people that they are no danger to themself or others. Would you honestly say Logain was no danger to himself at that point? Would he have been able to be successfully monitored or would he have just run off? If he would have run off or harmed himself then he wouldn't be considered ready for release.

 

Well, in my defense I will say that I have known of situations similar to those I described that were considered strong cases on HR violations and pursued via filed complaints and the issuing of pertaining recommendations. Now, while, in some cases, sanctions may have been mild (a slap in the hand, if you will) they were applied and reinforced. I'd be more than happy to provide you with links (such as the one below) should you wish to confirm that I have not spoken lightly nor made anything up with my examples. Please, just let me know.

 

Now admittedly it's been a while since I practiced, and even longer since I studied this area specifically, maybe I'm rusty, and maybe international law has radically changed in that time, but I'm just not seeing the HR violations.

 

None of the cases you describe meet the legal criteria of the offenses you allege. Some situations would do so, Rand in a box, the attempt to break Egwene, Elaida's plan for the Black Tower had it been executed all would, but those all stand out as exceptions to the norm. They're specifically designed to show how far the tower has fallen and how terrible a leader Elaida is.

 

I can go through each of the rights violations you allege specifically if you'd like. Although I'll refrain right now for the sake of length.

 

But to address the example you linked you're drawing incorrect parallels between cases of bullying and the behaviour of the Aes Sedai.

 

What you don't seem to see is that the human rights instruments rarely establish anything as absolute, where they are established as absolute (torture is an example of something that is absolutely prohibited regardless of circumstances) then the bar for meeting the offence is set extremely high (and wouldn’t be met by any of the incidents you’ve described as torture). Article 29(2) of the UDHR is an example of how this is achieved. While the UDHR establishes general rights, 29(2) qualifies that those rights aren't absolute and are subject to the rights of others and to society as a whole. That is it allows for an individual's rights to be breached perfectly legally in certain circumstances.

 

Those circumstances being that the person doing the infringing is acting legally (you yourself note that the Aes Sedai are acting in an official capacity) and that they do the infringing for the right reason, that is to protect the rights of another individual or for the just requirements of society. That means provided the Aes Sedai are acting according to Tower Law, or the law of the nations they are in they are entitled to bully, and infringe any almost any other right of an individual that they please, provided they are doing it for the right reasons, those being the greater good of society as a whole or to protect the individual rights of others, and it is not a human rights violation.

 

The bullies in your linked scenario aren't acting in an official capacity, they aren't acting according to law, they aren't acting with the correct motivation of protecting the rights of other individuals or society as a whole. But the Aes Sedai are.

 

Let's take your scenario of Cadsuane and Tam, bullying certainly, but was it a human rights violation? No, as it falls under UDHR Article 29(2) which allows for the rights of an individual to be limited to protect the rights of other individuals and society as a whole. Cadsuane was acting in her official capacity, and while we don't know the ins and outs of Tower Law we do know her to be a stickler for it where she has mentioned it, and can infer from this and the actions of the other Aes Sedai that she's not contravening the law. She was acting/bullying for the greater good of society and to protect the rights of others, those rights being to not be murdered by an insane Dragon Reborn. As such her bulling, while not very nice to Tam, wasn't a contravention of his human rights.

 

It's the exact same basis on which holding and questioning anybody is allowed. Holding and questioning are regulated to prevent human rights breaches (among other things), and so they should be. But the very act of holding and questioning is not in and of itself a human rights violation, it's when they're not done according to the rules it becomes an issue. Similarly here they very act of bullying isn't inherently a violation, it's a violation when not done legally and for the right reasons. Cadsuane did it legally and for the right reasons, the people in the article you linked didn't, and that’s a very important difference.

 

And excluding the exceptions I mentioned above I can't think of many instances of the Aes Sedai behaving as Aes Sedai that wouldn't come within that line of reasoning. Yes they're bossy, arrogant etc, but they are genuinely acting in that way for what they see as achieving a greater good of society rather than just doing so arbitrarily.

 

Similarly to abuse power you have to actually abuse it, that is you have to break the conditions placed on your power, or use your power illegally in some way. Elaida did so in ordering the men at the Black Tower executed without trial, and in kidnapping people and so on, but there is nothing to suggest any of the other Aes Sedai have done so. Being mean, arrogant and bossy aren't abuses of power unless the power was given conditionally on the basis that they would not be mean, arrogant and bossy in exercising it. And we know that there was no such condition.

 

Of course all of this ignores that the UDHR isn't a binding instrument, and as such is representative of norms. However I'd argue that the fact that the Aes Sedai are able to comply with what it establishes indicates they are actually generally respectful of the human rights, and are in fact operating with what would be considered good practice.

 

Not really, no. My point is far more complex than that, actually. It is about the deterioration of the vision that the Hall of the Servants may have suffered (based on my understanding of the duties and affairs of Aes Sedai in the AoL, as stated above, on my reply to Ishadar) and the actual abuse of power of Third Age Aes Sedai.

 

I don't see the abuse of power except in scenarios where it has been written to highlight that specific thing e.g. virtually everything Elaida did.

 

Regarding the deterioration of the vision, well what do you expect? They no longer live in the AoL, holding them to those standards seems unreasonable given that those standards are virtually impossible to meet in their current circumstances, and that the very society itself that they must work in is completely different. The world has changed a great deal and they've changed accordingly because they had to. I'm frankly surprised they've managed to stay as close as they have given the events of the breaking and the attitude the general population have towards Aes Sedai as a result. That said I don't want to become an Aes Sedai apologist, they do a great many frustrating and stupid things, they can be bossy, rude and arrogant. But that doesn't make them flagrant abusers of power and violators of human rights and so on.

[Darth Krewl]

...

 

Long, but very interesting read, Kahlika. Seems like we could discuss our different experiences in the field of HR for hours, but like you said, they can't apply to a fantasy story in any way shape or form. Perhaps this is why Star Wars is my favorite story ever, since I do know for a fact that the Republic and the Jedi upheld not only the rights of humans, but of all sentient species in the galaxy, till the rise of the Empire, of course. And, one of the reasons galactic citizens rebelled against the Empire is that it violated all those rights, precisely. But, since neither the UN's UDHR nor SW are the topics discussed in this thread and forum, I'll try to reply to your post as best as I can and then, I'll stop derailing the thread, which is the full ToM book, of course.

 

Okay, agreed on Logain. You are absolutely correct. IDK how long a prisoner of the Tower had to be kept imprisoned after gentling/stilling, but post-severing depression had to be observed carefully. You have a point and I stand corrected. The examples I provided on all other cases are based on cases specific to my country (Mexico) as reported by the national HR commission, such as the one I provided for you. And I can guarantee you that said reports include cases of intimidation, coercion, torture, et. al., similar to the way I have seen Aes Sedai act on occasion in the books.

 

You pose an interesting scenario concerning Cadsuane...if she were technically acting on official business. Alas, she is not. We could argue if she had the best interests of all concerned (fearing that in his mad grief Rand would do something as stupid as it would be terrible) if you like, but she had no official business being there, simply because, by not recognizing the authority of the White Tower in any way, shape or form, Rand was not subject to its jurisdiction, much less to the authority of one of its representatives.

 

Remember, Rand only allowed for Cadsuane to stay by his side because of Min's viewing that he had something to learn from her. But when he banished Cadsuane under penalty of death, she left, precisely because she had no official authority over him. Holding and questioning suspects (not prisoners, but suspects) is perfectly legal, as long as they fall within your jurisdiction. Alas, holding and questioning a potential witness (not even a suspect) against his will outside the boundaries of your jurisdiction is a major offense, in fact. And since I see Cadsuane acting completely out of her jurisdiction, I feel that my example stands on very good ground, actually.

 

As for the deterioration of the vision, actually, that was exactly my point. IMO, history shows us that most institutions tend to lose their way and stray far from their original path, oft times becoming an obsolete mockery of the vision that their original founders had. And that's exactly my point, I see the "Eyes Se-Blind" of the Age of Legends as far less than the heroes they ought to be, at least on paper that is, and as a pest that must be removed by the Pattern, as the world moves to a new Age.

[haloun]

can we get off the debate of male chaneller's human rights? we can accept that the red ajah has been very prejudiced against the male channelers, even to the point of hunting down and killing them without trial, the "vileness" anyone? and yes while the white tower has fallen greatly from its founding precepts and principles, they are not all bad, are are starting in some few exceptions to get better, nynaeve and, dare i say it, cadsuane, are breaking free and they are the most powerful female aes sedai alive, caddy is a living legend whose authority with other aes sedai might even supersede the amyrlins, and nynaeve is becoming a legend in and of herself with all of her healing, and cleansing the taint and everything else, and now we have the third legend moiraine, a legend because she is legendary in going her own way, ignoring the "leader" and doing whatever she sees as right. so the white tower will eventually reconcile their sins, and TG will happen but while you few are arguing over the human rights of people in a world that is purely fictional, the rest of us have been trying to carry on our own theoris and get thoughts going on other subjects and your debate, which has been going on since the forums were started, even if not by you, has towered over everything with your lengthy posts and your debate, if we could start up a thread to put this debate on then you could continue it there. btw the countries that have refused to be a part of the UN have a lot easier time getting away with and not being tried and convicted of war crimes, or violations of HR, none of these countries are in the UN, nor is there any form of similar laws in the world of the wheel of time. so the entire idea is moot.

[Jblaylock]

OK, question.

 

I understand that Danelle is Mesaana. Problem is, there are so many damn charecters that I can't remember who Danelle is or was. What important things had she done in previous books to make her stand out, that a reader might remember her for, so I can be like, "ohhhhhhh, herrrrrrrrr..."

[Darian]

so ....the excerpt on lanfear.......I think it implies the possibility that she might get rescued and help Rand out with patching the hole. the excerpt's weird placement stands out, and I know no author writes useless paragraphs. mark my words, she still has a part to play.

[blazetheearth]

OK, question.

 

I understand that Danelle is Mesaana. Problem is, there are so many damn charecters that I can't remember who Danelle is or was. What important things had she done in previous books to make her stand out, that a reader might remember her for, so I can be like, "ohhhhhhh, herrrrrrrrr..."

 

She had really only shown up a couple of times, but the major point is in TSR when Suian Sanche is deposed. Danelle was in charge of some construction project and she brought in troops disguised as workmen to aid in overthrowing Suian. And she was one of the Sisters that followed Elaida into Suian's office when Elaida grabbed the Amrylin's Stole off of Suian's neck. Other than that I think we only see her in passing. She may have been mentioned from one of the BA hunter's PoV at some point. There had been a big debate going on as to her identity, this page discusses that debate and give why some thought it was Danelle several years ago.

 

EWoT cites these locations of references to her in the books

 

An Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah. She sides with the White Tower.

 

 

Physical Description

She is young and has big, blue eyes. She is dreamy even for a Brown. (TSR,Ch47) She is slight and often seemingly lost in a dream. She has big blue eyes. (TFoH,Prologue)

 

 

Chronology

• Danelle has two hundred soldiers brought into the White Tower disguised as masons. (TSR,Ch47)
• Danelle is one of Elaida's party that takes Siuan into custody. (TSR,Ch47)
• Danelle meets as part of Elaida's Council. She reports on skirmishes in Shienar and Pedron Niall's political maneuvering in Altara, Murandy and Illian. (TFoH,Prologue)
• Danelle reports to Elaida that Mattin Stepaneos has agreed while Roedran, Tylin and Alliandre are still considering. (LoC,Ch7)
• She is one of the first people Alviarin passes between Elaida's quarters and her own. (ACoS,Prologue)

I don't know if any of the above links work, as I just copy/pasted. Hope that helps clarify.

[Agelmar]

My thoughts on the full book:

 

Sanderson is starting to catch his stride. The change in Towers of Midnight from the Jordan books was less jarring than in The Gathering Storm. Although this is perhaps due to 1) Sanderson being forced to work with less previously written work, 2) it being the second Sanderson book I've read as opposed to the first, or both. I also haven't gone back and re-read the Jordan books since The Gathering Storm came out, and I had not read the last Jordan book since the month it came out, so I haven't had the opportunity to compare the two close up. Sanderson's writing isn't as repetitive as Jordan's, he has the ability to move the plot at a far more frenetic pace (I'm convinced Jordan would have taken 20 books to finish), and he writes the "action" scenes just as well, which is saying a lot. On the other hand, he still struggles with the voice for some characters (Mat in particular, although he is much improved from The Gathering Storm), he doesn't have Jordan's talent for switching POVs on cliffhangers (although given the limited time I had to devote to reading the book, I should thank him), his more modern dialogue grates at me, and he tends to go to literary crutches more often than Jordan. E.g., the characters tend to reminisce, something they never seem to do under Jordan (although perhaps this provides very much needed re-exposition); Nakomi, if she isn't anything more than she appears on the surface; etc.

 

Overall, I'm ready to pronounce the Sanderson experiment a success, and I look forward to the final book. I also hope Sanderson gets the nod to and decides to do the remaining pre-quel novels and the outrigger novels (particularly after Aviendha's second trip through the columns--I don't think that cliffhanger will be resolved in the final book).

[johthohar]

I also hope Sanderson gets the nod to and decides to do the remaining pre-quel novels and the outrigger novels (particularly after Aviendha's second trip through the columns--I don't think that cliffhanger will be resolved in the final book).

 

If you've read his blog at all you would know that this is very unlikely. He just has way too many other projects going. If he wrote any of the prequels or outriggers it would probably be in the distant future. The Stormlight Archive is a huge project and one he says he's been working on pretty much since he started writing. He plans on writing two more Mistborn trilogies. As well as several stand alone novels set in these and other worlds he's created. If the other WoT books are written at all I think its more likely that they will outsource them to another author. I also saw a reader question on Tor.com about Sanderson possibly publishing another companion book after the series is finished that includes RJ's notes on the WoT series and outlines for the prequels and outriggers he had planned. I actually think this would be the best idea as nobody would be able to do those justice IMO since its likely most of his notes pertained to finishing the main series and if he included resolutions to all the loose ends in his notes somewhere at least it would satisfy fan curiosity albeit in a less satisfying way.

[Aiyen kin Leary]

On a slightly different note, why do people keep saying that AMOL will be difficult/impossible/rushed to fit everything into one (WOT-sized) book? Really, what still needs to happen?

 

is essentially set for Tarmon Gai'don. He needs to make his speech and set his terms (the Dragon's Peace, perhaps?) for the rulers of the world, then the Strike at Shayol Ghul commences.

will bring back to the rest of the Light forces; a few awesome reunion scenes will ensue, and she will likely do something changing defeat to victory (my personal crazy theory is that she will warn about Shaidar Haran and his deadly abilities; unless has some kind of Light True Power SH could probably still shield him in combat). And she'll marry

is ready at the Fields of Merillor; he may do a little preliminary work (maybe passing out Power-wrought weaponry?), but he's basically good to go.

will have an interesting showdown with at the FM.

doesn't seem to have a huge separate role anymore; she's basically support, but I reckon she'll have an epic scene rescuing/failing to quite rescue and mourning

[Aiyen kin Leary]

has already started Tarmon Gai'don. He'll have his plate quite full soon, but assuming survival he'll likely be backed up by plenty of

Min will figure out something crucial to sealing the Bore, or maybe using .

will establish a strong position for Andor, probably claiming Cairhien and allying with Manetheren (the Gryphon Alliance).

will desperately try to avoid the future she saw, either preventing from bowing to the Crystal Throne or, tragically, bringing that future to pass by her attempts (depends on if Nakomi was Light or Dark).

Fortuona will likely send the reeling, and may be a serious problem. Likely the will be a serious threat early on, but will be rather quickly brought into the fold when the armies show up.

Demandred will have a Crowning Moment of Awesome (Brandon said his identity was the biggest secret in the series).

The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and Pevara and Androl (and maybe Logain?) will team up to fight for the Light.

A wild card or two will be unleashed and resolved, definately the Red-Veiled Dark Aiel, maybe the Sharans (unless those two are the same lol)?

may still do something useful.

will have to make a final pass at maybe trying to corrupt him, or even turning herself back to the Light?

Fain will play Gollum, maybe with that army of Zombie Trollocs.

All that, plus the actual logistics of Tarmon Gai'don, which I'm hoping will be truly amazing.

 

That's certainly more than enough for a wonderful, rather long book. Yet it really doesn't seem like they'd have to make it much longer than the others in the series, or worse forbid, split it again.

[Sharaman]

has already started Tarmon Gai'don. He'll have his plate quite full soon, but assuming survival he'll likely be backed up by plenty of

Min will figure out something crucial to sealing the Bore, or maybe using .

will establish a strong position for Andor, probably claiming Cairhien and allying with Manetheren (the Gryphon Alliance).

will desperately try to avoid the future she saw, either preventing from bowing to the Crystal Throne or, tragically, bringing that future to pass by her attempts (depends on if Nakomi was Light or Dark).

Fortuona will likely send the reeling, and may be a serious problem. Likely the will be a serious threat early on, but will be rather quickly brought into the fold when the armies show up.

Demandred will have a Crowning Moment of Awesome (Brandon said his identity was the biggest secret in the series).

The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and Pevara and Androl (and maybe Logain?) will team up to fight for the Light.

A wild card or two will be unleashed and resolved, definately the Red-Veiled Dark Aiel, maybe the Sharans (unless those two are the same lol)?

may still do something useful.

will have to make a final pass at maybe trying to corrupt him, or even turning herself back to the Light?

Fain will play Gollum, maybe with that army of Zombie Trollocs.

All that, plus the actual logistics of Tarmon Gai'don, which I'm hoping will be truly amazing.

 

That's certainly more than enough for a wonderful, rather long book. Yet it really doesn't seem like they'd have to make it much longer than the others in the series, or worse forbid, split it again.

You've forgotten the obligatory bedroom scenes with Rand-Avi and Rand-Cyndane (in TAR hopefully).

[Aiyen kin Leary]

has already started Tarmon Gai'don. He'll have his plate quite full soon, but assuming survival he'll likely be backed up by plenty of

Min will figure out something crucial to sealing the Bore, or maybe using .

will establish a strong position for Andor, probably claiming Cairhien and allying with Manetheren (the Gryphon Alliance).

will desperately try to avoid the future she saw, either preventing from bowing to the Crystal Throne or, tragically, bringing that future to pass by her attempts (depends on if Nakomi was Light or Dark).

Fortuona will likely send the reeling, and may be a serious problem. Likely the will be a serious threat early on, but will be rather quickly brought into the fold when the armies show up.

Demandred will have a Crowning Moment of Awesome (Brandon said his identity was the biggest secret in the series).

The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and Pevara and Androl (and maybe Logain?) will team up to fight for the Light.

A wild card or two will be unleashed and resolved, definately the Red-Veiled Dark Aiel, maybe the Sharans (unless those two are the same lol)?

may still do something useful.

will have to make a final pass at maybe trying to corrupt him, or even turning herself back to the Light?

Fain will play Gollum, maybe with that army of Zombie Trollocs.

All that, plus the actual logistics of Tarmon Gai'don, which I'm hoping will be truly amazing.

 

That's certainly more than enough for a wonderful, rather long book. Yet it really doesn't seem like they'd have to make it much longer than the others in the series, or worse forbid, split it again.

You've forgotten the obligatory bedroom scenes with Rand-Avi and Rand-Cyndane (in TAR hopefully).

 

lol

 

I wonder what they could do in a world where one's fantasies are literally reality...