Discuss The Full Book

[Darth Krewl]

Personal opinion - I don't know that anyone's ever even asked the question, let alone gotten a definitive answer - I think the Warder Bond was invented by someone attempting to 1) give Gentled men "something to live for" so they don't fall into depression and suicide/give up, and perhaps 2) find some way to set up a link between men and women while subverting the rules of a 1-to-1 link so that women could lead. If they were trying to achieve #2, they failed... but they might have succeeded at #1, and over 2500 years everyone forgot about the original intent.

 

Excellent point. The Warder bond could've been developed for something like this. I can definitely see it, even if it did end up as a completely different thing altogether.

 

The effect of a permanent shield is the same as gentling, the male channellers will lose the will to live since they can't touch the Source. Unless you mean something like Asmodean's case, where the shield allows for a minimal strength channelling, but this still will lead to getting insane, since it doesn't seem to be much of a correlation between the amount of tainted saidin someone has channelled and how long he can stay sane. Rand remained mostly sane for years channelling a lot, including twice vast amounts with Choedan Kal. Some of the Asha'man went crazy while still in training.

 

The Seanchan were also partly to blame for breaking the Dragon's Peace. Keeping prisoners of war as slaves and repeating refusing all kinds of offers for a deal to release them is a serious reason to break the peace pact. This was the main reason for the Aiel to start the war, and it's hard to blame them much.

 

I didn't mention a permanent shield as the best option. In fact, I said very clearly in my post that I was making up potential solutions on the fly. But, yes. Something like the shield that Rand used on Asmodean could've worked. Good idea. At any rate, not all severed people would die as the result of not being able to touch the source. Logain, Siuan and Leane are the perfect example.

 

Even after being severed, these 3 not only refused to give up the will to live, but they actually kept their spirits high enough to escape the White Tower and seek out the rebels. And all I'm saying is that male channelers should've been seen as victims (not as monsters) and given some kind of chance to live, one way or the other, not jumping to using the worst possible options (gentling, execution) so hastily, w/o having given these guys the slimmest chance, at the very least, for survival. (Banishment to the Island of the Madmen or something along those lines comes to mind also, for instance).

 

IMO, thinking that these 3 characters would be the only ones to prevent falling prey to the deep depression that takes hold of severed channelers (only because it'd be convenient to the story line) would be stretching suspension of disbelief a little too much. So, I believe it's safe to conclude that some male channelers would've made it, had the Aes Sedai found another option to deal with the taint.

 

As for your quote from the book, I still believe that, by twisting the Seanchan's contingency plans for a possible attack on Caemlyn and the queen of Andor, the Aiel earned huge Toh to themselves 'cause there's no honor in slander and fabrications. If they really wanted to free their enslaved channelers, then they should've tried a diplomatic solution at first.

 

And when that came to fail (because we all know the Seanchan would've never yielded to such a demand) then, you can go to war, w/o having lost your honor. Because by refusing to treat citizens of the Randland as human beings (despite their channeling ability) you are, in fact, committing an aggressive action that can be considered as breaking the peace.

 

Still, the attack on Caemlyn in the epilogue (combined with the entry for the Towers of Midnight, the very title of the book, no less, in the Glossary, where it is stated that in desperate times, the imperial family can go there to "right the ancient wrong" - which I'm totally certain that refers to stop leashing marath'damane and freeing captive damane) seem to indicate that the future will be all but what Aviendha saw in Rhuidean.

 

So, again. IMO, Aviendha's visions are nothing but a warning on a potential future and nothing more. In which case, w/e she saw may just be completely irrelevant.

[Jack Shaftoe]

The Seanchan were also partly to blame for breaking the Dragon's Peace. Keeping prisoners of war as slaves and repeating refusing all kinds of offers for a deal to release them is a serious reason to break the peace pact. This was the main reason for the Aiel to start the war, and it's hard to blame them much.

 

Aren't those prisoners the Shaido Wise Ones? Why should the rest of the Aiel have the right to declare war if those women are not released? Do they have a god given right to decide the fate of every Aiel, including their mortal enemies? If they want to declare war based on the whole damane practice, that's one thing but doing it just because some of the damane are Shaido - whom the rest of the Aiel wanted to exterminate - seems quite hypocritical to me. Shaido were big on slavery too, so being turned into damane serves those Wise Ones right as far as I am concerned.

[David Selig]

Logain was only gentled for about a year. Siuan and Leane for a few months. usually those who lose the ability to channel take several years to lose the will to live and die, but it's inevitable. Siuan and Leane admitted to Nynaeve after she healed them that as hard as they were trying to fill their lives with something else, they were soon going to get back into the depression and eventually die. Logain was broken and ready to give up on life before the Tower coup, he got a brief surge of vitality due to getting the chance for vengeance against the Reds, but it wouldn't have lasted much longer.

 

IIRC, in the first centuries after the Breaking, the Aes Sedai tried all kind of solutions to prevent the male channellers getting insane, nothing worked except gentling.

 

I still believe that, by twisting the Seanchan's contingency plans for a possible attack on Caemlyn and the queen of Andor, the Aiel earned huge Toh to themselves 'cause there's no honor in slander and fabrications.

No question about that.

 

if they really wanted to free their enslaved channelers, then they should've tried a diplomatic solution at first.

 

And when that came to fail (because we all know the Seanchan would've never yielded to such a demand) then, you can go to war, w/o having lost your honor. Because by refusing to treat citizens of the Randland as human beings (despite their channeling ability) you are, in fact, committing an aggressive action that can be considered as breaking the peace.

But this is exactly what happened in the vision, as shown in the quote from my previous post. The Seanchan refused to release the Aiel damane and da'covale despite the repeated diplomatic offers from the Aiel. So the Aiel declared a war on them. This is how the war started. The use of the contingency plans to trick Andor into the war happened 40 years later.

[David Selig]

Logain was only gentled for about a year. Siuan and Leane for a few months. usually those who lose the ability to channel take several years to lose the will to live and die, but it's inevitable. Siuan and Leane admitted to Nynaeve after she healed them that as hard as they were trying to fill their lives with something else, they were soon going to get back into the depression and eventually die. Logain was broken and ready to give up on life before the Tower coup, he got a brief surge of vitality due to getting the chance for vengeance against the Reds, but it wouldn't have lasted much longer.

 

IIRC, in the first centuries after the Breaking, the Aes Sedai tried all kind of solutions to prevent the male channellers getting insane, nothing worked except gentling.

 

I still believe that, by twisting the Seanchan's contingency plans for a possible attack on Caemlyn and the queen of Andor, the Aiel earned huge Toh to themselves 'cause there's no honor in slander and fabrications.

No question about that.

 

if they really wanted to free their enslaved channelers, then they should've tried a diplomatic solution at first.

 

And when that came to fail (because we all know the Seanchan would've never yielded to such a demand) then, you can go to war, w/o having lost your honor. Because by refusing to treat citizens of the Randland as human beings (despite their channeling ability) you are, in fact, committing an aggressive action that can be considered as breaking the peace.

But this is exactly what happened in the vision, as shown in the quote from my previous post. The Seanchan refused to release the Aiel damane and da'covale despite the repeated diplomatic offers from the Aiel. So the Aiel declared a war on them. This is how the war started. The use of the contingency plans to trick Andor into the war happened 40 years later.

[Mr Ares]

As for treating channelers like dogs, I guess it's okay for Aes Sedai to treat their male counterparts that way, right? Even now that the taint's been removed, they still look at them as something less than human. The White Tower is worse than the Seanchan empire in that sense.

The WT attempts to save the lives of male channelers. The Seanchan murder them out of hand. Who is more humane?

p.s.

Read some history. Britain and France had given guarantees to Poland, the Nazis attacked Poland, so international law gave full right to Poland's allies to intervene. It's not as if they invaded Germany because of the death camps or something like that.

They've attacked because they knew who's next on Hitler's list.

Russia?

 

Logain was only gentled for about a year. Siuan and Leane for a few months. usually those who lose the ability to channel take several years to lose the will to live and die, but it's inevitable.

*Cough*Setalle Anan*cough* Likely, not inevitable. Well, the death part is inevitable, but that's true of all mortals.

[Darth Krewl]

Logain was only gentled for about a year. Siuan and Leane for a few months. usually those who lose the ability to channel take several years to lose the will to live and die, but it's inevitable. Siuan and Leane admitted to Nynaeve after she healed them that as hard as they were trying to fill their lives with something else, they were soon going to get back into the depression and eventually die. Logain was broken and ready to give up on life before the Tower coup, he got a brief surge of vitality due to getting the chance for vengeance against the Reds, but it wouldn't have lasted much longer.

 

IIRC, in the first centuries after the Breaking, the Aes Sedai tried all kind of solutions to prevent the male channellers getting insane, nothing worked except gentling.

 

There was no way for any of these three to know that Nynaeve was about to find out how to heal them. So, in that sense, they could all have given up, thinking that they'd never be able to touch the Source again. And still, they kept fighting on. Giving in to suicidal depression is not a matter of how much you may have lost (and Siuan lost much more than just her ability to channel). It's a matter of character and inner strength, which IMO, all these characters demonstrated to have enough of to escape and seek the rebels. And Siuan would've still been very valuable. as mentor and adviser to Egwene, like she became, even if she wasn't healed.

 

It's good that the White Tower did seek more humane ways to deal with the madness, even if they failed. But still, that doesn't justify perceiving and treating male channelers as something less than human. And that's what I've been questioning all along: the White Tower's prejudiced and biased ways towards their male counterparts. I for one, find it sickening.

 

The use of the contingency plans to trick Andor into the war happened 40 years later.

 

And this is what I was specifically referring to; the way that the queen of Andor was tricked into going to war with the Seanchan. How dishonorable that was for any true Aiel and how much Toh that earned them. In other words, they used lies and slander and compromised, not only their own nation, but all nations outside Seanchan territories. It was only natural that the Seanchan would defend themselves and use that little excuse to complete their invasion of the Randland. And, judging from her reaction, Aviendha would seem to agree with me. She knew that her grandkids had done wrong.

 

As for treating channelers like dogs, I guess it's okay for Aes Sedai to treat their male counterparts that way, right? Even now that the taint's been removed, they still look at them as something less than human. The White Tower is worse than the Seanchan empire in that sense.

The WT attempts to save the lives of male channelers. The Seanchan murder them out of hand. Who is more humane?

 

When did I say that the Seanchan are more humane?

 

I suggest that you read all of my posts concerning this topic, because, at no point have I said that I believe the ways of the Seanchan humane. All I've said is that I don't approve of the ways of the White Tower any more than I approve of the ways of the Seanchan and that's only my very personal opinion about this. My take has always been that, while these people refuse to change their ways and accept each others as equals (the way people from the AoL did) then they will only be playing straight into the hands of the Shadow.

 

Herid Fel's words come to mind in this sense, when he spoke of belief and unity. Indeed, such things are all but non-existent in the Randland of the Third Age. But not amongst the Seanchan. Even now, at the brink of Tarmon Gai'don, there is lack of belief (in the Dragon's decision to break the seals or Egwene's decision to oppose Rand) and no unity whatsoever (the division's created by the same subject).

 

The only peoples I see united as one nation and with unflinching belief in their views, omens, prophecies and ways, at this point, are the Seanchan. For as questionable as their society's laws may be (though a slave can rise to great power, as so'jhin do), they are united and they believe in one single purpose. So, love or hate their ways, the Seanchan are far stronger than the rest of their world. Ditto for the Shadowsworn. And this certainly doesn't mean that I approve of the ways of the Shadow. Only that these two factions are completely united and believe in one single purpose.

 

While the Randlanders spend their time opposing each other, bickering amongst themselves and, most importantly, refusing to rally around the Dragon Reborn (some don't even respect him. What's with this imbecile, Gawyn and that idiotic Aes Sedai "puppet" of Cadsuane, Merise, calling him "al'Thor"? When have you seen a Seanchan refer to their Empress or a Darkfriend to the Dark Lord in such disrespectful fashion?), the Seanchan are doing exactly as demanded by their Empress, whether they like it, dislike it, consider it wise, unwise, etc. This is why they're succeeding in their invasion and why they should raze the White Tower to the ground, just like Caemlyn's being destroyed by Shadowspawn (because again, Shadowsworn are also united and none dare question their leadership. Only the Randlanders are doing that).

[mossman87]

While the Randlanders spend their time opposing each other, bickering amongst themselves and, most importantly, refusing to rally around the Dragon Reborn (some don't even respect him. What's with this imbecile, Gawyn and that idiotic Aes Sedai "puppet" of Cadsuane, Merise, calling him "al'Thor"? When have you seen a Seanchan refer to their Empress or a Darkfriend to the Dark Lord in such disrespectful fashion?), the Seanchan are doing exactly as demanded by their Empress, whether they like it, dislike it, consider it wise, unwise, etc. This is why they're succeeding in their invasion and why they should raze the White Tower to the ground, just like Caemlyn's being destroyed by Shadowspawn (because again, Shadowsworn are also united and none dare question their leadership. Only the Randlanders are doing that).

 

 

 

*Ignoring 3,000 years of Randland history*

Don't worry, I know you'd be the one to get their shit together if push came to shove!

[David Selig]

The unity of the Seanchan people is not that strong apparently, look what happened after Semirhage killed the Empress in Seandar - huge civil war with numerous fractions battling for supremacy.

 

The Empire was just really efficient in establishing the absolute power of the Empress at all costs, by using all kinds of morally wrong things like slavery(da'covale), even worse slavery (damane), secret police (Seekers), etc.

[Darth Krewl]

The unity of the Seanchan people is not that strong apparently, look what happened after Semirhage killed the Empress in Seandar - huge civil war with numerous fractions battling for supremacy.

 

The Empire was just really efficient in establishing the absolute power of the Empress at all costs, by using all kinds of morally wrong things like slavery(da'covale), even worse slavery (damane), secret police (Seekers), etc.

 

Their empire is crumbling, yes. It's been weakened by the Dark One's orders to let the lord of chaos rule, sure. But those who are with Tuon/Fortuona, are united under their empress and believe in the Return. And those are the ones threatening the Randland at this point, as Aviendha's visions would suggest.

 

Still, it was Fel who said that the keys to defeating the Dark One were unity and belief. Ever wondered why food doesn't spoil in Perrin's and Mat's camps? Ever seen how these two guys are never questioned and how much their followers look up to them? There is union and belief in Perrin's forces and in Mat's Band of the Red Hand. And, these 2 haven't done it by relying to shock therapy or other kinds of brain-washing and mind-control propaganda, like the Seanchan's. This is why I believe that the food isn't spoiling in Perrin's and Mat's camp.

 

And, IMO, until the people of the Randland learns to rally around the Dragon Reborn (not because they want to, but because the prophecies demand it from them) and stop opposing, fearing and doubting him, chaos will continue ruling in their midst and the Dark One will keep touching them, by spoiling food, sending bubbles of evil, etc. I think it's obvious that, where order, belief and union reign, the Lord of Chaos cannot rule.

[Mr Ares]

As for treating channelers like dogs, I guess it's okay for Aes Sedai to treat their male counterparts that way, right? Even now that the taint's been removed, they still look at them as something less than human. The White Tower is worse than the Seanchan empire in that sense.

The WT attempts to save the lives of male channelers. The Seanchan murder them out of hand. Who is more humane?

 

When did I say that the Seanchan are more humane?

 

I suggest that you read all of my posts concerning this topic, because, at no point have I said that I believe the ways of the Seanchan humane. All I've said is that I don't approve of the ways of the White Tower any more than I approve of the ways of the Seanchan and that's only my very personal opinion about this.

I suggest that you read what I quoted. You said that the WT's treatment of male channelers was worse than the Seanchan. The WT doesn't consider them animals, it just considers them to be very dangerous (with good reason). The Seanchan treat all channelers as dangerous, but also as animals, and they kill the men as they have way to control them. No, the Seanchan are worse than the AS.

[Sharaman]

Seanchan, sea-folk and Aiel essentially kill their male channelers or offer them the choice of committing suicide.

[Darth Krewl]

As for treating channelers like dogs, I guess it's okay for Aes Sedai to treat their male counterparts that way, right? Even now that the taint's been removed, they still look at them as something less than human. The White Tower is worse than the Seanchan empire in that sense.

The WT attempts to save the lives of male channelers. The Seanchan murder them out of hand. Who is more humane?

 

When did I say that the Seanchan are more humane?

 

I suggest that you read all of my posts concerning this topic, because, at no point have I said that I believe the ways of the Seanchan humane. All I've said is that I don't approve of the ways of the White Tower any more than I approve of the ways of the Seanchan and that's only my very personal opinion about this.

I suggest that you read what I quoted. You said that the WT's treatment of male channelers was worse than the Seanchan. The WT doesn't consider them animals, it just considers them to be very dangerous (with good reason). The Seanchan treat all channelers as dangerous, but also as animals, and they kill the men as they have way to control them. No, the Seanchan are worse than the AS.

 

The lines I've highlighted in bold, Mr. Ares, clearly indicate that this argument here is based on personal opinion and interpretation. Because, for better or worse, I did say that my opinion about the White Towers is very personal. You clearly seem to disagree, just as I disagree with your claim that the Seanchan are worse than the Aes Sedai (I'm speaking strictly of the Third Age AS only).

 

As for my comments, my point is simple: the Aes Sedai have a much longer history than the Seanchan, as we all know. And, again, in my very personal opinion, the Aes Sedai of the Third Age have certainly strayed far from the original path of their order. Like it or not, the Seanchan have stayed true to their ways and it's possible that they will change for the better; it's hinted at in the glossary entry for "Towers of Midnight". Whereas the Aes Sedai of the Third Age have never deserved the title "Servants of All". And to this point, judging by their leader's arrogant, narrow-minded views and stance on the Dragon Reborn, they are still unwilling to change their ways and adapt to the radical changes that Tarmon Gai'don's brought to their world.

 

So, while you may dislike the Seanchan as much as I despise the White Tower, it's all a matter of personal interpretation and opinion. But the fact remains that, at no point, have I called the Seanchan "humane". What I did was call the ways of the AS of the Third Age inhuman. And there's a huge difference. Again, this is from my very personal point of view and I won't change it. So no, to me the Seanchan are not worse than the AS of the Third Age.

[doseyclwn]

I dunno. I think it's pretty funny that (and I'm sure there are many of you that know the books better than I do, so please correct me if my facts are wrong) the real power behind the empress of Seanchan (the reason why they are so devoted) is that the Crystal Throne is some sort of Ter'angreal. So, was Artur Hawkwing's son that was sent over the Aryth Ocean a complete hypocrite?

[doseyclwn]

Pardon me, but I thought I'd go off the beaten path here and change course. I loved this book. I especially like the forging of Perrin's hammer and the whole Tower of Ghenjei sequence. I'm wondering something about the fins, maybe some of you know. So, the fins knew Matt would come back. Did they also know he would get out?

[Goramier]

Pardon me, but I thought I'd go off the beaten path here and change course. I loved this book. I especially like the forging of Perrin's hammer and the whole Tower of Ghenjei sequence. I'm wondering something about the fins, maybe some of you know. So, the fins knew Matt would come back. Did they also know he would get out?

 

 

The forging of that hammer is one of my favorite scenes in this series. I love the series and have read it for a long time. There are many, many things I like. But for some reason the forging of tha hammer was just epic. I loved it.

[bjsm]

I dunno. I think it's pretty funny that (and I'm sure there are many of you that know the books better than I do, so please correct me if my facts are wrong) the real power behind the empress of Seanchan (the reason why they are so devoted) is that the Crystal Throne is some sort of Ter'angreal. So, was Artur Hawkwing's son that was sent over the Aryth Ocean a complete hypocrite?

 

I don't think he ever sat on the Crystal Throne. The Consolidation took hundreds of years. We know he landed at Imfaral, which is on a whole different continent than Seandar. (There are really two Seanchan continents, a smaller northern one where Imfaral is and a larger southern one containing Seandar.) Presumably, he lived maybe fifty years after landfall. During that time, the a'dam was invented, and his followers started collaring Aes Sedai and other women who could channel, and they probably conquered most or all of the northern continent. I find it unlikely that he ever invaded the southern continent, though, or else the Consolidation would have been over a lot faster than it actually was. I figure some Seanchan Aes Sedai controlled the Crystal Throne before losing it to a Hawkwing descendant about a hundred to a hundred and fifty years into the Consolidation.

[Guest gggiv]

When I read TGS I really liked it. It was a good read, and with interesting plots.

 

When I picked up ToM I was excited to begin to read, and when I was done reading my heart was pumping extremely. I was totally amazed by this book.

The Tower of Genjei-part; I haven't felt that kind of excitement since The Great Hunt, when everybody is in Falme. It wasn't only Perrin coming back as the badass he were, but also the series! Now, I have liked the way the series changed in those long plots and political intrigues; I have enjoyed that. But this kicked me back to Great Hunt and the adrenaline of those book!

 

Egwene is good in this book; she's not the girl who says she's the real Amyrlin, she now IS the Amyrlin. Very much Aes Sedai-politics in her PoV, but much more likeable.

 

Lan's PoV is all about him going to Malkier. It doesn't happen so much, but neither does he have much screentime. I think the scene where he finally calls himself king, feels kind of rushed.

 

Ituralde! This maybe has to be the best mini-subplot I have ever read! It starts with a bang and keeps on banging to the end. I mean when you have it starting like, and I now qoute; "Burn me, where are those archers!" Rodel Ituralde climbed up to the top of the hillside. "I wanted them formed up on the forward towers and hour ago to relieve the crossbowmen!" "

It can't get more badass than that. I think it was masterly written, BS did this really nice! You're thrown into the fight directly and stay there with them. One of ToM great sections!

 

The Rand part was interesting. Rand was very interesting. When I got through a 3/4 of the book, and realised Lews Therin wasn't there! Then came the chapter with Rand talking like he was both Lews Therin and Rand.

All the Hippie/jesus-talk about Rand before the book was realised vanished. He's actually more badass now than he was before.

 

But ToM was all about Mat and Perrin, and my god that was WoT old-school! Man... They were both badasses.

Perrin fighting Slayer was great. And the Perrin vs Galad things was incredible! Then we have the grand ending with the hammer!

 

Mat; always funny and always cool. The Tower of Genjei-part was the best thing and the highlight of ToM, without a doubt. It made the book go from amazing to Oh-my-f'cking-god-this-book-is-epic. :D

 

Okey, this was a bad written review, but it actually were my feeling about this book because I have not anybody to talk to in real life.

 

Towers of Midnight is my favourite book.

 

 

I agree with you. The one thought that hit me at the end of the book; I believe that Olver will turn out to be Gaidan, Brigitte's legendary partner. The only narration from Olver shows that he has a warrior's soul. Brigitte likes "ugly" men and we keep hearing about how ugly Olver is .... hmmmm.

[Goramier]

 

 

I agree with you. The one thought that hit me at the end of the book; I believe that Olver will turn out to be Gaidan, Brigitte's legendary partner. The only narration from Olver shows that he has a warrior's soul. Brigitte likes "ugly" men and we keep hearing about how ugly Olver is .... hmmmm.

 

 

He won't. RJ already said he is not. He said (I can't remember exactly but...) the timing is off and it doesn't work and is definately not Gaidal. RJ also said Taim is not Demandred in case you were wondering.

 

 

 

Edit: to include last sentence.

[babuada]

I dunno. I think it's pretty funny that (and I'm sure there are many of you that know the books better than I do, so please correct me if my facts are wrong) the real power behind the empress of Seanchan (the reason why they are so devoted) is that the Crystal Throne is some sort of Ter'angreal. So, was Artur Hawkwing's son that was sent over the Aryth Ocean a complete hypocrite?

 

I don't think he ever sat on the Crystal Throne. The Consolidation took hundreds of years. We know he landed at Imfaral, which is on a whole different continent than Seandar. (There are really two Seanchan continents, a smaller northern one where Imfaral is and a larger southern one containing Seandar.) Presumably, he lived maybe fifty years after landfall. During that time, the a'dam was invented, and his followers started collaring Aes Sedai and other women who could channel, and they probably conquered most or all of the northern continent. I find it unlikely that he ever invaded the southern continent, though, or else the Consolidation would have been over a lot faster than it actually was. I figure some Seanchan Aes Sedai controlled the Crystal Throne before losing it to a Hawkwing descendant about a hundred to a hundred and fifty years into the Consolidation.

I still think Crystal Throne is a binding chair. That is why Seanchan grovels for their empress and they think Dragon Reborn will grovel too once he kneeled before Crystal Throne.

[Randommer]

Pardon me, but I thought I'd go off the beaten path here and change course. I loved this book. I especially like the forging of Perrin's hammer and the whole Tower of Ghenjei sequence. I'm wondering something about the fins, maybe some of you know. So, the fins knew Matt would come back. Did they also know he would get out?

 

I was wondering this too. The fins still haven't been explained all that well imo. But, come to think of it, I suppose they wouldn't have known he was going to get out since Mat didn't know that himself (that's if the Eelfinn can see into Mat's head like he thinks they can). But then again the Aelfinn can see the future in some way or other and surely would have known...so yeah I'm very confused...

[blazetheearth]

I loved the forging of the Perrin's hammer, and I can't help but wonder what properties it has that we haven't seen yet. Several have been proposed, including that it is an Uber-Darkhound Slaying Hammer +10, which I kinda like because it really fits with the whole Darkhounds have Shadow-Twisted wolf souls, and it would be like Perrin freeing the wolf souls of their enslavement by the DO. But I thought I would mention something I haven't seen yet.

 

We know from how the forging is described and from comments later that Neald couldn't remember exactly what he had done that night, but that he and Grady had pieced together enough to create the equivalent of AS-made weapons - which would indicate that the Hammer is imbued with more than any other AS-made weapon (especially when you consider that there was a circle including 2 men and 6 women providing the OP for that forging.

 

We know it grows warm in Perrin's hand and strikes Shadowspawn with an energy that burns them on contact. So far that's about all we know.

 

 

I propose that Mah'alleinir actually goes beyond mere OP-enhanced weapon to ter'angreal status, and that the warmth is associated with it being activated by Perrin's touch. The "skin sizzled and smoked" effect can easily be achieved with lightning/electrical discharge as with fire and lightning would definitely fit better with it's mythological equivalent Moelljnir.

 

So I guess I'm wondering ... will a circumstance come up where Perrin will have to THROW Mah'alleinir at an enemy and if so will it return as it's counterpart was said to do? How far will RJ/BS take the parallel?

[Majsju]

Well, right now the only thing connecting Perrins hammer to Mjolnir is that he is the one wielding it, and that it wsas mystically forged. But, the size is wrong, it was not forged by dwarfs, not forged by a metal with mystical propertiers, not blessed by Oden, etc.

 

do not see any reason to take it any further. If we look at the three ta'veren, Mat borrows extremely much from Oden, whereas Rand borrows quite little from Tyr, so far it is mostly being a leader in war and losing a hand. Perrin as he is right now would land smack in the middle of those two.

[Aquarius]

I have an odd feeling about this book and wanted to know if others were thinking the same:

 

This books is full of interresting things, fun action to read, great things beeing done ... but mainly things we pretty much knew a lot about. I felt no big surprise moment, no real "OMG" moment... Mat's trip to the Finns was fun, the assault on the blightborder (and Lan's recognition of his people) was good, Rand's attitude was awsome, Egwene's writting is pretty much allright, and so on ... but NONE of this is any big surprise.

 

The surprises exist, however, but they currently seem to be related to minor events, that may prove major in AMoL, but which are currently pretty much... "bah".

- The Trollocs in Caemlyn

- Graendal's attitude / actions

- The gathering at the Fields of Merilor

- The Forsaken doing **nothing** of note on screen.

 

What do you think ? (sorry if that sort of opinion was already stated multiple times here, U didn't read this part of the Forum until I finished the book a few days ago).

[Yehosh]

You're right, not as many as in TGS, but I thought there were some good surprises.

 

1) Graendal was alive and Arangar dying at Natrim's Borrow wasn't something I expected

 

2) Caemlyn under attack is a big event and nobody saw it coming (except for Rand as he has been trying to seal the waygates for the last 6-7 books)

 

3) Avienda's vision - not sure surprising is the right word, but it was an eye opener

 

4) Tarna being turned by 13x13 - we've been expecting to see this all series, but most people thought it'd happen in the white tower

 

5) Cadsuane not being annoying - shocking is probably a better word then surprising

[Axon]

I have an odd feeling about this book and wanted to know if others were thinking the same:

 

This books is full of interresting things, fun action to read, great things beeing done ... but mainly things we pretty much knew a lot about. I felt no big surprise moment, no real "OMG" moment... Mat's trip to the Finns was fun, the assault on the blightborder (and Lan's recognition of his people) was good, Rand's attitude was awsome, Egwene's writting is pretty much allright, and so on ... but NONE of this is any big surprise.

 

The surprises exist, however, but they currently seem to be related to minor events, that may prove major in AMoL, but which are currently pretty much... "bah".

- The Trollocs in Caemlyn

- Graendal's attitude / actions

- The gathering at the Fields of Merilor

- The Forsaken doing **nothing** of note on screen.

 

What do you think ? (sorry if that sort of opinion was already stated multiple times here, U didn't read this part of the Forum until I finished the book a few days ago).

 

I felt the same way after my first read through. Everything that happened was fairly predictable, but hey, this stuff was obvious and we knew it was coming - we just needed it to be confirmed. Still, as a set-up novel, it's the best of the series. After a number of(I know its sacrilege, but it's the truth) bad set-up books, I'll take Towers of Midnight any day.

 

After my second read through, where I started piecing all the material together from the earliest novels, ToM became much better in my eyes. The three boys each have a catharsis - Perrin, a simple and strongly conservative man (read TGH again, his POVs work much better after ToM), finally accepts his role as a leader and as a wolf. Readers have been complaining that Perrin was annoying, and he was, but I think we missed that he's just a simple, small town guy who never wanted any piece of magic or big town life. He didn't just fear losing himself to the wolf, he hated the entire process and never wanted any part of it.

 

Mat accepts that he is, well, the man, and that he is (and must be) a hero after all. And Rand stops bullying people just because he's the Dragon Reborn and finally becomes the true champion of the Light - as Egwene says, people will do as he commands simply because he brings that level of respect and authority to the table now. So it's a character development set-up as well.

 

I actually read TGH and then ToM over the long weekend, and the two novels have many fine plot points that are closely connected.