Discuss The Full Book

[Lobes604]

Or Demandred could have Shara

[Terez]

Or Demandred could be Sorilea.

[daavorian]

Damandred is so high King Darlin.

RJ said that Demandred's alter ego had not been seen on screen as of COT, and Brandon extended it to KOD. Roedran is the only eligible monarch aside from Alsalam (unlikely), or the new Panarch or King of Tarabon (also unlikely).

 

 

Mattin Steppaneos wasn't seen onscreen until TGS, correct? And now he's hanging out in the White Tower, too "scared" to leave...

 

I believe he was onscreen in KoD, very early in the book. He met with Elaida after arriving in the Tower.

 

Either way his rule isn't secure, he's not gathering for war etc.

 

Was that KoD? Huh, I just re-read all those, too. Anyway, I had been thinking that there's no reason to assume that Demandred's armies are anything 'regular'. If he HAD been posing as Mattin (And I'm just using him as an example) there's no reason to think that he doesn't bugger off to the blight every once in a while to check on his Red-veiled Aiel, or whatever. I had thought that all regular armies were accounted for at this point so Mattin seemed as likely as anyone, especially given that he can hang about the white tower with his buddy Messana and see what was going on. Oh well though.

 

I think someone said before that the BT was likely due to the semhirage-mesaana-damandred alliance. One controls WT, one BT and the other Seanchan, pretty much all the channelers in the world, they would be able to roll anything that opposed them.

 

Yet, I find that doubtful. M, S & D were already referred to as "secretive" by Graendal in LOC Prologue.

[Duskfire]

My main problem with Demandred being at the BT or at least controlling it is why send Osan`gar there then? That would be like sending Rahvin to watch over the Companions while Sammael took over Illian.

[Terez]

Maybe they were working together. Osan'gar didn't have the clout he might have had with his old name, so it's not hard to seem him taking a back seat to Demandred. Demandred is taking a back seat to Moridin, after all.

[Lobes604]

Maybe they were working together. Osan'gar didn't have the clout he might have had with his old name, so it's not hard to seem him taking a back seat to Demandred. Demandred is taking a back seat to Moridin, after all.

If Taim is more Moridins bitch how can Demandred's rule be secure??...... if thats where he's operating

[Duskfire]

Maybe they were working together. Osan'gar didn't have the clout he might have had with his old name, so it's not hard to seem him taking a back seat to Demandred. Demandred is taking a back seat to Moridin, after all.

 

Not a direct back seat though. Its not as if they are bunking together, which is basically what Demandred and Osan`gar would have been doing. Not to mention Taim is obviously some uber level darkfriend. So they would have Demandred, Osan`gar and Taim in the same place, with Moridin keeping a close eye on things. Not to mention, there is still that whole Demandred not recognising Flinn. Obviously he isn't Taim, but Flinn is a pretty major Asha`man. He was the first person to ever be tested at the farm, is their best healer, and is one of Rands personal guards. If Demandred had any involvement at the Blacktower, surely he would know who flinn is. And if he didn't know Flinn was personally, at the very least he would know that there are old people becoming Asha`man. But he professed shock at the Cleansing at that fact.

 

Basically, there isn't that much evidence that Demandred is at the BT. Granted there isn't much evidence that he is anywhere. But its mostly an extension of the Demandred/Taim scenerio. Taim isn't Demandred. So they must at least work together!

[decrepid dragon]

Maybe they were working together. Osan'gar didn't have the clout he might have had with his old name, so it's not hard to seem him taking a back seat to Demandred. Demandred is taking a back seat to Moridin, after all.

All the reborn forsaken (Ishmael excluded) have taken on lesser roles, like cyndane, and becoming Darshiva and Halima.

[Ataxia]

Why cant Demandred be in multiple places? Maybe hes acting like Rand and building armies from multiple places. Maybe he has a piece of the pie in the BT, Murandy, and Shara? He would also have access to trollocs/fades. It would be a complete army and one the forces of light would fear.

[nolirion]

Why cant Demandred be in multiple places? Maybe hes acting like Rand and building armies from multiple places. Maybe he has a piece of the pie in the BT, Murandy, and Shara? He would also have access to trollocs/fades. It would be a complete army and one the forces of light would fear.

With the state of the world Taim is far to busy to be anything else but taim .

[Ataxia]

I never said anything about taim, i was talking about demandred. People assume hes just in 1 location, but I think he is in multiple places, with many different armies being assembled.

[decrepid dragon]

I never said anything about taim, i was talking about demandred. People assume hes just in 1 location, but I think he is in multiple places, with many different armies being assembled.

That would actually be pretty cool if he was in BT and Murandy or something, I'm not sure if we are just overhyping how awesome his reveal is going to be (some forsaken has to be the last to be revealed) but it would make sense that the last forsaken in hiding brings an extra serving of pain to the light. But I really can't see him building armies of anything but the BT or seanchan and sharan people, Murundians that weren't darkfriends surely woulnd't try to fight the rest of the world alongside trollocs just cause their king said so, and still somehow believe they were fighting for the light.

 

I know some people have suggested that maybe he is gathering trollocs, but that makes no sense to me. As an entire species they are already on the DO's side, and would just require being told by other random shadowspawn to marshal and they would, no more need for an overlord except moridin.

[Yamahako]

We learned in this book that Graendal controls Slayer (might have learned it before but it was news to me at the time) since she gave the Dreamspike to him to trap Perrin. So if Greandal was responsible for Asmodean's death, couldn't it have just been Slayer directed by her? The other 2 she was responsible for she didn't directly kill either.

[Tom Sawyer]

We learned in this book that Graendal controls Slayer (might have learned it before but it was news to me at the time) since she gave the Dreamspike to him to trap Perrin. So if Greandal was responsible for Asmodean's death, couldn't it have just been Slayer directed by her? The other 2 she was responsible for she didn't directly kill either.

 

Moridin lent her Slayer at the start of the book and there's nothing that ties the two of them together before that. Back in WH, he said that any of the Forsaken knew how to contact him when Aran'gar sicced him on Rand, so it could have been that.

 

I think that Graendal killed Asmodean herself, though. When she went to her cave hiding spot, one of her toys there was a Tairen High Lady, who sounded a lot like Alteima. She was one of Rahvin's pets and Graendal could have popped into Camelyn to pick her up to play with once Rahvin died and saw Asmodean wandering around and smoked him while he was there - which would fit into the "roadkill" comment by RJ.

[Dolphineus]

Finished reading my first time thru on Thursday. Been reading through the posts on here, but haven't caught up.

 

My thoughts.

 

• 
   
  
• Action! Lots of action. Loved it. From the Perrin/Galad battle against the trollocs to the melee in the World of Dreams. Gotta love Perrin inadvertently foiling the BA/Messana getaway.
  
• Absolutely loved Perrin showing Egwene how its done. She is the "Dreamer", the one getting all the formal training from the Wise Ones, but he simply shrugs his shoulders as if to say "balefire? not in my dream!" and poof! Give Egs credit for how quickly she learns though, since she put that to good use against Messana. A little dissappointed that Egs team didn't get more BA in that fight.
  
• Nice to see Perrin finally finish growing up. Gawyn too. And Galad, shattered illusions much? Nice work Morgase!
  
• Am I the only one thinking Rand is using Egwene? I don't think he intends to show up and discuss whether he should break the seals. He has already decided. I think he just told Egs that to get her to marshal everyone together. If you think about it, Rand doesn't need Egwene's Aes Sedai. He has a couple sources of female channelers that are somewhat loyal to him. Take Nyneave, Cadsuanne, Alivia and the Wise Ones and Windfinders, and what does he need the White Tower for.
  
• I love how channelers are figuring out (finally!) what we have known for years. Namely, that the two halves of the power working together are much more powerful than each working alone.
  
• I liked Avienda's flash forward. Ok, Aiel used to follow the Way of the Leaf. Avienda knew that already. No big shock. But to have her see a future that was even more distasteful laid out in front of her was priceless. It would be interesting to see what her always-channeling children are capable of.
  
• Mat and the Tower. Nicely done. I liked almost everything about it. Sure, I didn't want to see Jain die, but you kinda saw that coming. I loved the realization his bargain only said the foxes couldn't hurt them. Oops! Um, run! The resolution there was sweet, and would get my vote as the BUT (Big Unnoticed Thing) from Books 4-6. Also loved the only way to go forward was to go back!
  
• Seriously had at least a half a dozen OMG! moments in this book. All those little plot threads being wound together, so many little prophecies and visions coming to fruition. Mat and the badger in the sack? (I had just re-read the first 1/2 of EotW)
  
• Just a little disappointed that the Asmo reveal was so lame. Did I miss it somewhere in the text, or was it only in the Glossary?
  
• Some people can open up a can of whoop-butt! Then there are those industrial sized cans. Rand at Maradon? He opened up a whole case of industrial sized cans of whoop-butt, made a whole pot of whoop-butt stew, heated that sucker to boiling and threw in a basket of jalepenos!
  
• Olver :( Yeah, hugs little man, many hugs.
  

[Rybal]

Haven't gone through everything yet, but I can confirm that it makes this clear at two points within the text and spells it out in the Glossary.

 

On Page 116, Moridin essentially confirms it when talking to Grendal (sp?)

The epilogue also seems to confirm this.

[Sharaman]

We learned in this book that Graendal controls Slayer (might have learned it before but it was news to me at the time) since she gave the Dreamspike to him to trap Perrin. So if Greandal was responsible for Asmodean's death, couldn't it have just been Slayer directed by her? The other 2 she was responsible for she didn't directly kill either.

 

Moridin lent her Slayer at the start of the book and there's nothing that ties the two of them together before that. Back in WH, he said that any of the Forsaken knew how to contact him when Aran'gar sicced him on Rand, so it could have been that.

 

I think that Graendal killed Asmodean herself, though. When she went to her cave hiding spot, one of her toys there was a Tairen High Lady, who sounded a lot like Alteima. She was one of Rahvin's pets and Graendal could have popped into Camelyn to pick her up to play with once Rahvin died and saw Asmodean wandering around and smoked him while he was there - which would fit into the "roadkill" comment by RJ.

 

How'd you deduce it was Aran'gar that sicced Slayer onto Rand at Far Madding?

I'm not saying it's impossible but you have no proof IIRC.

If you're basing this on Aran'gar's PoV at the Ansaline Gardens, they're not conclusive and can actually be interpreted differently.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

How'd you deduce it was Aran'gar that sicced Slayer onto Rand at Far Madding?

I'm not saying it's impossible but you have no proof IIRC.

If you're basing this on Aran'gar's PoV at the Ansaline Gardens, they're not conclusive and can actually be interpreted differently.

 

Yes, it's inconclusive, but nothing else fits the facts. Slayer and the DF Asha'men all had orders from Demandred to kill Rand. When we see Demandred in person, however, he's very insistent that nobody gets to kill Rand except him, so it's safe to assume that he didn't give these orders and someone was impersonating him. When Aran'gar hears about someone impersonating Sammael, she goes on about how someone else is playing her game - ie, impersonating another Forsaken. Given that there's no other instances in the entire series of someone else impersonating a different Forsaken, it's safe to assume that this is what she's referencing.

 

I really don't get how there's a second interpretation which is even remotely reasonable. What else could she have been talking about?

[masaru]

Damandred is so high King Darlin.

RJ said that Demandred's alter ego had not been seen on screen as of COT, and Brandon extended it to KOD. Roedran is the only eligible monarch aside from Alsalam (unlikely), or the new Panarch or King of Tarabon (also unlikely).

 

I've always found this statement to be a clue that we are perhaps overthinking Demandred. Perhaps Demandred doesn't have an alter-ego in the books so the question of "who is Demandred?" becomes moot in figuring out what he's doing.

 

The Roedran theory seems kind of...weak for Demandred's ambitions. Murandy has never been portrayed as an especially big deal and any army he could gather would be relatively small in the scheme of things, not to mention the fact that any army of normal citizens and soldiers he gathers would bolt once they are made aware of who their leader is, I would think.

[Sharaman]

Anybody worked out all the timelines yet?

Most can be converged using Veins of Gold as the reference point.

Perrin, Mat pre-ToG, Elayne, Egwene, Nyn, Ituralde, etc. can all be converged.

So can the BT with very little fudging.

Edit: With BT, we have Androl being able to weave Gates and then not. If we assume that the BA had to be present to do the 13x13 thing, then it probably cannot happen until they escape the WT in TGS.

Then it sort of fits why there would be a delay putting the D-Spike into operation.

The dicey ones are Mat post Finnland due to potential time-scramblings effects,

Aviendha (who doesn't seem to have reacted to VoG when she finishes with Rhuidean) and we only have an approximate idea of how long she'd take,

The assault into the Borderlands (we know when the AS eyes & ears started reporting but it hadn't appeared to have started when Lan rode into Arafel).

However, did Tarwin's Gap coincide with Maradon maybe?

Also did Rand jump the gun with Field of Merrilor?

He said he would be there a month later or something when he met Egwene but it all seems to have happened much quicker than that.

I guess we'll have to wait for Steven to update the TGS chronologies a bit.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

I've always found this statement to be a clue that we are perhaps overthinking Demandred. Perhaps Demandred doesn't have an alter-ego in the books so the question of "who is Demandred?" becomes moot in figuring out what he's doing.

 

The Roedran theory seems kind of...weak for Demandred's ambitions. Murandy has never been portrayed as an especially big deal and any army he could gather would be relatively small in the scheme of things, not to mention the fact that any army of normal citizens and soldiers he gathers would bolt once they are made aware of who their leader is, I would think.

 

Ya, when I started reading ToM, I thought that all those mercenary armies outside of Camelyn were the armies that Demandred was talking about. Then we get thousands of Trollocs running through a Waygate into the middle of the city, so it seems kind of pointless to have a bunch of extraneous mercenary armies hanging around as well. Wherever he is, I think it'll turn out to be kind of weak for Demandred's ambitions. The impression that I have right now is that they waited too long to introduce this character and any plotline he has in the last book will be fall flat and be kind of truncated as they wrap him up and move on to other things.

[Sharaman]

 

How'd you deduce it was Aran'gar that sicced Slayer onto Rand at Far Madding?

I'm not saying it's impossible but you have no proof IIRC.

If you're basing this on Aran'gar's PoV at the Ansaline Gardens, they're not conclusive and can actually be interpreted differently.

 

Yes, it's inconclusive, but nothing else fits the facts. Slayer and the DF Asha'men all had orders from Demandred to kill Rand. When we see Demandred in person, however, he's very insistent that nobody gets to kill Rand except him, so it's safe to assume that he didn't give these orders and someone was impersonating him. When Aran'gar hears about someone impersonating Sammael, she goes on about how someone else is playing her game - ie, impersonating another Forsaken. Given that there's no other instances in the entire series of someone else impersonating a different Forsaken, it's safe to assume that this is what she's referencing.

 

I really don't get how there's a second interpretation which is even remotely reasonable. What else could she have been talking about?

 

Ok - first bit of confusion - are you talking about Aran'gar possibly imitating D'Dred to give orders to Ashaman or are you talking about Aran'gar as somebody giving orders to Slayer?

Slayer got his orders from an obfuscated image - he had no clues whether it was male/female and it didn't identify itself.

The person who hired Slayer gave him exact information that turned out (marginally) incorrect.

Hence it was somebody who could more or less find Rand

I'd assumed it was Cyndane - she can find Rand due to her ability to read ta'veren disturbances and she's acting without orders and needs to conceal herself if it is indeed her.

Yes, it could be Aran'gar but then Aran'gar has to know Rand's location, one way or another.

 

The kill orders came to the Ashaman from somebody who may have been D'dred or pretending to be D'dred.

Moridin's orders also came from somebody who may have been Moridin , or pretending to be Moridin.

Yes, Aran'gar may be imitating D'dred (or Moridin) in the case of the Ashaman but whoever ordered Slayer wasn't necessarily the same person.

 

The other instance where Aran'gar could be playing the imitating game is as the Dragon with Masema.

The POV just makes it clear that Aran'gar has imitated somebody - not necessarily a Forsaken.

Your interpretation is reasonable.

[Elan Tedronai]

Dear Book 14,

 

I just read Book 13. Have you? It's pretty flaming good!

 

Listen, I wanted to mention a few things I saw in bits and pieces in your predecessor that I must beg won't occur in your august pages.

 

1. Don't kill Talmanes. Don't kill Olver either, but for the love of Narg, do *not* kill off Talmanes to save the spud's life

 

2. If Fain bites off Callandor or whatnot and falls into the Pit of Doom, I shall personally burn you, and your 13 predecessors

 

3. You read that scene with the ToG? Yea, me too, that scene was awesome. Do stuff like that.

 

4. You read all those Perrin, Elayne and Egwene chapters in Book 13? Yea, me too. Pretty good. Seems to wrap up most of their flaming character arcs. Catch my drift? You have too many of those, and I swear to God above I will not only burn you, I will rewrite you first. With dirty words. Dirty, British-idiom words.

 

5. Demandred didn't show up once in your predecessor. The guy is *literally* the only Forsaken not to a. show up on screen and b. get his ass handed to him on a silver platter. Do *not* let him be like that. Demandred is Lews Therin's rival. They were bestest buddies; they went for the same chick; I will bet metric flametons of scheisse that Demandred was Lews Therin's best man. You know what that's called, Book 14? Backstory. It's called characterization. It's flaming powerful. Do you realize that "who is Demandred?" is the question that has figuratively and I'm sure in some cases literally tormented WOT fandom for *decades* plural.

 

If you muck this up, Book 14, I will chop off your manhood and feed it to the freaking goats.*

 

Best regards,

 

Mr. Micawber

 

*If you turn around and make Taim Demandred, I swear on all that is holy I will hunt you down, along with every one of your relatives. Let me tell you, Book, eternity with Beelzebub and all of his hellish demons will seem child's play compared with five minutes with me and this pencil.

 

demandred, taim, moridin and et al will end up dead and buried in a span of days. The last battle will simply be a larger version of Dumai wells. After reading 13 books i have learned to to temper my expectations. The war of power which lasted 10 years will probably be the longest most bloody battle in rand land ever. Tarmon gaiden will not touch it.

[Kahlika]

Wherever he is, I think it'll turn out to be kind of weak for Demandred's ambitions. The impression that I have right now is that they waited too long to introduce this character and any plotline he has in the last book will be fall flat and be kind of truncated as they wrap him up and move on to other things.

 

This is what I tend to think as well. I think it's why I really like the Demandred has gathered an army in 'the Blight', 'Shara', 'on the Moon' type theories, because they fit with my idea that he should be doing something huge and will have a massive reveal. But in general the reveals and ends of the Forsaken have each been somewhat anticlimactic (Lanfear's and Rahvin's death's would be an exception to that for me though, so I have hope it is possible).

 

What I would really like to see is Demandred and Mat go up against each other, that's my hope for how the Demandred thing plays out whatever it's revealed he's been doing. That would be a true moment of awesome. They're respectively the General/battleleader figures for the Light and Dark so it would make some sort of sense, they'll be manoeuvring against each other on the battlefield already, Mat's medallion makes it theoretically possible. I have no clue how it would actually occur though but I'd love to see/read it.

[JDJ]

Wherever he is, I think it'll turn out to be kind of weak for Demandred's ambitions. The impression that I have right now is that they waited too long to introduce this character and any plotline he has in the last book will be fall flat and be kind of truncated as they wrap him up and move on to other things.

 

This is what I tend to think as well. I think it's why I really like the Demandred has gathered an army in 'the Blight', 'Shara', 'on the Moon' type theories, because they fit with my idea that he should be doing something huge and will have a massive reveal. But in general the reveals and ends of the Forsaken have each been somewhat anticlimactic (Lanfear's and Rahvin's death's would be an exception to that for me though, so I have hope it is possible).

 

What I would really like to see is Demandred and Mat go up against each other, that's my hope for how the Demandred thing plays out whatever it's revealed he's been doing. That would be a true moment of awesome. They're respectively the General/battleleader figures for the Light and Dark so it would make some sort of sense, they'll be manoeuvring against each other on the battlefield already, Mat's medallion makes it theoretically possible. I have no clue how it would actually occur though but I'd love to see/read it.

 

That could be an interesting scenario to put down on paper... the Band vs Demandred's army. Leader vs Leader. General vs General.