Discuss The Full Book

[The Fisher King]

Wait, so Weiramon is DF or not? That didn't sound right..

I'm confused too... are those two the only non-DFs?

 

And any interaction between Cadsuane and Egwene? Doesn't Egwene order Cadsuane to the Tower too?

 

And since Nynaeve is now officially the strongest sister alive... does the way the AS treat her change?

 

No, they ARE Darkfriends. He can spot Darkfriends now.

 

Epic. FTW - All The Way.

 

 

Fish

[Beren]

I would love to hear your take on the Dark Prophecy at some point Fish. If I recall, you have done a pretty good job of reading these things in the past.

 

 

Also, what do you all think about "the three becoming one," "knowing the pieces" and Perrin with his three pieces of the hammer being forged? Foreshadowing here? If so, I would say the pieces are the following; Rand is the head of the hammer, Perrin is cap piece that holds it all together and Matt is the handle. Three ta'veren, three pieces of a hammer, the three must be as one. Just a thought.

 

 

Also, Nalaam as Demandred? Possible? Plausible?

[Terez]

Wait, so Weiramon is DF or not? That didn't sound right..

I'm confused too... are those two the only non-DFs?

 

And any interaction between Cadsuane and Egwene? Doesn't Egwene order Cadsuane to the Tower too?

 

And since Nynaeve is now officially the strongest sister alive... does the way the AS treat her change?

 

No, they ARE Darkfriends. He can spot Darkfriends now.

 

Epic. FTW - All The Way.

 

 

Fish

This was my first impression as well, but I'm not so sure now. I think it might have been something in the letter from Tiana (Verin), and Rand just used his new Lews Therin Daes Dae'mar suave smoothness to pretend like he was just that good.

 

Weiramon is old news. Anaiyella was obvious as soon as it became apparent she was sharing his bed.

[fionwe1987]

So, the final dark prophesy that was quoted, predicting doom and gloom for the Light on the day Rand breaks the seals... is this in Verin's notes that Egwene has? It would certainly be grounds for Egwene to oppose Rand's plan.

[Beren]

So, the final dark prophesy that was quoted, predicting doom and gloom for the Light on the day Rand breaks the seals... is this in Verin's notes that Egwene has? It would certainly be grounds for Egwene to oppose Rand's plan.

 

I don't think it predicts doom and gloom for the Light, but rather for the Shadow. I commented on this already, but look at the specific wording in the last section. If it is a prophecy for the Shadow then that last line would be directed at them... not at those who are on the side of the Light.

[Terez]

Well, the implication there is that the Dark One will win, but they're all going to die screaming anyway.

[Axon]

 

That is one of my few problems with this series - that the women in it always are undercutting the men because they think they are idiots. From what I see, Egwene is almost acting petty.

 

It would be rational if the dark one wasn't about to break free any minute and he was the one person that would have the most knowledge on the subject.

 

True, true. Only Rand's women are rational...oh, and the forsaken. The light females are all childishly stubborn.

 

Anyway, if the Dragon Reborn came to me and said "I'ma let the Dark one out, then I'mma whip his ass" I'd be all for it.

[fionwe1987]

Well, the implication there is that the Dark One will win, but they're all going to die screaming anyway.

Which is what Ishamael wants, and we know is the DO's true aim anyway. So, the question remains... does Egwene know of this prophesy?

[DPT24]

Don't know how Mat did in the Tower of Genji... but it sounds like he basically let Caymelen get destroyed... can't believe he didn't open that letter!!!!!

[The Fisher King]

I Have To Make One Comment And Ask Two Questions:

 

 

Comment: I love this thread and it is making me want to buy and read the book even MORE, if thats possible, lol - to be able to read for myself all the cool stuff being talked about here!!!

 

Question 1 - What happened with all the foreshadowing of Mat's losing an eye in Ghenji and weighing two aes sedai?

 

 

Question 2 - I is confused. Is Moiraine, in terms of channeling ability, a bigtime weakling now due to what the finns did to her - or a bigtime badasss because of the sweet angreal now in her posession?

 

 

Thank you all.

 

 

 

Fish

[Terez]

Question 2 - I is confused. Is Moiraine, in terms of channeling ability, a bigtime weakling now due to what the finns did to her - or a bigtime badasss because of the sweet angreal now in her posession?

Both. She's too weak to even wear the shawl at all now (not that it's likely she will be demoted - she's still bound by the Oaths), but stronger than she was before with the angreal. Which is awesome, because Siuan has Vora's sa'angreal. They both deserve it, not only for what they've sacrificed, but for what they can do with them. They are both warriors.

[fionwe1987]

Doesn't Egwene have the sa'angreal?

[The Fisher King]

Question 2 - I is confused. Is Moiraine, in terms of channeling ability, a bigtime weakling now due to what the finns did to her - or a bigtime badasss because of the sweet angreal now in her posession?

Both. She's too weak to even wear the shawl at all now (not that it's likely she will be demoted - she's still bound by the Oaths), but stronger than she was before with the angreal. Which is awesome, because Siuan has Vora's sa'angreal. They both deserve it, not only for what they've sacrificed, but for what they can do with them. They are both warriors.

 

Thank you for the answer. The long prophesied injury to/loss of Mat's eye wasn't a complete loss, then?

 

 

Fish

[Bob T Dwarf]

lots of people seem to think that Slayer hangs out there, since he appeared to disappear into it in book 4

 

i've seen that too, but i thought it was impossible to enter tog from tar. don't remember now where i got that idea from, but it is pretty firm in my head.

RJ said so in an interview quote, but a lot of people dismissed it because Birgitte seemed to imply that it was possible.

 

What Birgitte said is that is was nearly impossible to get out of the Tower, which was why it was so dangerous to enter.

[Satsuoni]

DO YOU WANT SPOILERS?

If you want spoilers, you shall HAVE SPOILERS!

Ahem. Don't read if you want your eyes intact:))

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I'll try to recap the major plotlines in the book, as I remember them. Mind you, my memory is not good, especially considering i've read the book in sitting, so I must be missing pieces, too.

Also, many of the questions has been answered already, but I am too lazy to filter them out

But here is my memory and opinions:

Rand:

Gains ability to see darkfriends, and, apparently somehow enhace his channelling with Light, at the expense of attracting even more DO's attention. When he does, the darkfireds in the vicinity get crazy/suicidal. He, as well as his gf's (those he is bonded to) cause breaking in the clouds and decrease of DO's influence in the area. His actions:

1. Go to WT, walk in, says he is going to break the seals to Egwene, walks out. Egwene does not take it well.

2. Comes to Tear, lifts Cad's exile, detects two DF in his high lords (see above) and sends them to carry message to other DF's.

3. Goes to Bandar Eban, unspoil the grain on ships, rallies people to restore the town -in one day.

4. Goes to borderland town where Ituralde is (on his last legs), blast trollocs with his power , causes two DF is charge of the town go suicidal just by feeling his battle.

5. Goes to Far Madding, gets slapped on the face by the Borderland rulers and asked(by them) a question about his past life (they had some kind of prophecy about that). Makes, imo, an important note that prophecy is a warning more than necessity, it may not come true. (Seriously, the thing I want from the series the most -the breaking of a prophecy, even one. Not missinterpretation, actual breaking. Hate foreshadowing). Gives them ultimatum to come with him or rot in Far Madding.

Um.. that seems to be it, mostly

next Perrin:

The most of the book seemed to be focused on him.. (duh. kinda dissapointed here)

1. Whines, mopes, burns banners (his own).

2. Starts training in TOR from Hopper (can hopper to be the Borken Wolf? Not likely, but why not..)

3. Meets with the Whitecloak army, led by Galad. Tries to parley, but galad takes a look on his eyes and won't have anything of it.

4. Discovers that he can't travel from there (or to there, it was mentioned, later). There is weird purple dome on TOR over the place.

5. Frightens Galad into parley. Galad sees Morgase. Perrin agrees to be judged by Morgase for his crimes against WC.

6. More training, ability to follow the jumps in TOR, impose his will on the place. COnnection between DOme thingie and inability to Travel. Encountering Slayer in TOR.

7. Where was I...right. Resolves his guilt over WC death in the trials, somewhat.

8. Confronts Slayer on TOR with a pack of wolves over a dreamspike -a ter'ang in the world of dreams that prevents TRavelling in the real world, and can be set to allowed some gateways while refusing others. Carries it to TarValon, destrys it ;) Hopper is killed by Slayer.

9. Forges Mjornir, hammer of (al')Thor for the memory of Hopper (Mjornir is Hopper in the OT, or close enough :). Raises the (last remaining) WolfBanner.

10. Saves whitecloack from Trollocs that were prepared for him by Graendal further on the road. Swears them to his service in the LB. Byar dies.

11. Gets things sorted out with Elayne and Andor, meets with Mat (lends him Ashaman).

Ah also on the way -makes up with Faile, and she sorts things out with Berelain.

Berelain falls for Galad -love on first sight, on both sides. HA!

Next .. Aviendha.. Um.. *puke* gasp, arghh.. Disgusting AND out of place. Bleaargh. I HATE foreshadowing, destiny etc.. I swear, if I were here (and channelling), I'd balefire the first human Min has viewings about, just for the sake of trying to screw with them. And AV's POV is nothing but that. The only nice things -according to her viewings, the Power stays intact after the LB, for a while. It just (somehow) gets superceded by tech.(, IMO, by seanchan hunting the channeling out of the world altogether.)

What else...

Gawyn:

1. Mopes, being out of place in the WT.

2. Gets over his hatred for Rand, saves Egwene live from Seanchan assassins, gets bonded for it. That is about it. Collects booster rings from Seanchan.. I wonder...

Egwene, WT -plots against Rand, gathering monarchs to talk him out of breaking the seals.

Thinks that assassins are Mesaana, so lures her ( and a host of DA) to TAR for battle. DUe to Perrin running around with Dreamspike, can(t be trapped by DF's and breaks Mesaana's mind. Get shown by Perrin, how the things in TAR are REALLY done :)*Badass*

To be continued....

[Scraps]

^^^^ AWESOME Satsuoni ^^^^ =D

 

The world Aviendha saw (and that you guys are describing) seems to be reminiscent of Fable II.

[Satsuoni]

Ahm.. more spoilers.. and disjointed ramblings. Beware :)

Graendal -is ordered to kill Perrin, and shown the prophecy (above). Moridin gives her the dreamspike, and says that he (NOT Demandred, don't know where that comes from) has another one and puts it a good use.

Actually I don't remeber Demandred metioned even once in a book, must have missed it if it was there.

She is also given Isam, to better hunt Perrin.

She then proceed to set a trap , using portal stones and dreamspike to hold him in place. The trap fails spectacularly. She is then promised by SH that he'll not forget her (to rape her daily, it'd seem).

Seanchan -only one POV of Tuon, where she has Suffi demonstrate a gateway for her, and starts preparing to destroy the WT.

Lan -meets with the srmy, gives up and raises his banner. The last scene is soo cliffhangy :((

In fact the whole Epilogue seems to be the Cliffhangville of Dhoom, there are so many beginnings there..

Going to stop posting for now, tired :)

[Terez]

lots of people seem to think that Slayer hangs out there, since he appeared to disappear into it in book 4

 

i've seen that too, but i thought it was impossible to enter tog from tar. don't remember now where i got that idea from, but it is pretty firm in my head.

RJ said so in an interview quote, but a lot of people dismissed it because Birgitte seemed to imply that it was possible.

 

What Birgitte said is that is was nearly impossible to get out of the Tower, which was why it was so dangerous to enter.

Yes, but that statement implies that the person was able to get inside in the first place.

[Tensai0211]

did anyone mention that Alanna has vanished? wonder whats going on there, it looks like she got either a letter or visit from Verin.

[sleepinghour]

1) Does Moiraine still look the same?

 

2) Do we find out what happens to people other than Avi's immediate family in Avi's visions?

 

3) After meeting with Rand in Far Madding, does the Borderlander army return to the Borderlands? Is anyone sending backup to Lan?

[Satsuoni]

And to finish:

Black Tower:

Something fishy is going there. The second dreamspike is being used (an no, you can't travel in, either, unless allowed. Perrin and Rand are aware of this. Don't know why Perrin didn't remove it, maybe no time). Nest, Logain has disappeared somewhere, and Taim is training his favourites hard and fast, probably also brainwashing them by Compulsion/ 13x13. (IMO, he may even boost their skills by rewriting their brains to Shadow, or even putting a total new soul in there. 13x13 seems more probable, though).

There is a small group of Ashaman loyal to Logain, but hey are weak and getting weaker (one of theirs was brainwashed recently). Also the tower's emissaries are being.. changed, somehow, also that seems more like compulsion than full conversion. Don't know. The Rebel's emissaries are just sitting outside.

Mat

Not nearly as much Mat as i'd like in the book...

1. Encounter Gholam, chases it off. Lopin and 4 Redarms dead.

2. Goes to meet Elayne, and secures the production of the dragons, sweetens the deal by giving Elayne his foxhead for 3 days.

3. Goes drinking (milk) with Birgitte, learns more about Finns.

4. Lures Gholam through the Skimgate, pushed it off, so technically, by the end of the book it is still alive, but probably not for long (it will die of starvation eventually).

5. Meets with Perrin, secures Ashaman for gating.

6. Goes to the tower of Ghenjey, with Thom and Jain (Noal)

7. Goes in, uses dice to find Moraine(spelling wrong..probably). Makes a deal with them: his eye (half the bloody light of the world) for Moraine and her angreal out, a way out straight and without twists, and no foxes attacking. Forget snakes here :)

Snakes chase him around, so they can't go back ( the only way to go forward in this place is to go forward and back several times). Noal/ Jain delays snakes in the Last Stand, and, probably, dies (not shown though.. only bloody swords shown afterwards).

8. Mat realizes that his Ashandarei is the key , the "way out", and opens a portal in the wall with it, escapes.

9. Moraine explains that Finns fed on her power, slowly draining her ability. Says that they claim they killed Lanfear by over draining (imo here -they may not be lying. First, maybe the speed of the drain was enough shock so that she died before completely drained, and second -it was hinted that DO boosts her, somewhat, by Brandon, i think). Thom and Moraine express the desire to get married on the spot :) Mat refuses to perform the ceremony, though.

Mat's eyehole hurts, but his luck is better than ever :)

BTW Verin really messed up with the letter:)Way to go Mat! Nice willpower. Upthy,Verin ;)

Elayne:

No baths that I noticed. Copied (imperfectly) mat's foxhead, the copy can be overwhelmed by strong weaves and cuts of the ability to channel during touch, but burns Gholam the same.

Tries to interrogate captuerd BA by masqueradingas a forsaken, but other DA and Mellar attack her from behind, so she ends up wounded and losing one of the copies. The BA mention the invasion, but it only gets clarified in Epilogue, in Olver POV. DOes not undergo testing (due to pregnancy), and not sure about Oaths yet.

Nynaeve:

Heals residual madness on one Ashaman, tries Rand, but since Rand is both too far gone and balanced by Light Taint (somehow), can't do it. Undergoes AS testing, during which she goes on the Balefire rampage to save (virtual) Lan, and passes (barely).... That is all that I recall, really. Well, she also helps Egwene with Mesaana/DA hunting.

Min:

Read about some additional flaw in Callandor, but is none too specific. EOS>

As an afterthought:

Olver:

In the epilogue there is Olver POV. During it, he wins (legally) in snakes and foxes (apparently, no one bothered with calculating the exact odds of beating the game, just assumed it was unbeatable), at about the same time Mat escapes ToG, and open the letter, which says "In one month, trollocs are coming through Waygate into Caemlyn, tell Elayne to BLAST it, love, Verin". Goes out to see Caemlyn burning.

Comes across as a somewhat mad fool, during POV, IMO.

Red-veiled aiel, enemy channelers

Hm.. there is a mention of a red-veiled aiel-like men in the Blight eating (or just killing, dunno) some borderlander. IMO, it may be that some male aiel that went to the Blight (since they could channel) were not killed, and instead turned to the Dark side, possibly after they went mad.

Also there is a mention of enemy channelers (male), which may be also these Aiel, or turnes recruits from the Black Tower.

Also, Morgase has finally married Tallanvor, closer to the end.

That is it really. Uff..

[Satsuoni]

Does Moiraine still look the same?

Yes, mostly. Tiread, and somewhat softer, but apparently the same. The oaths appear to be in place.

2) Do we find out what happens to people other than Avi's immediately family in Avi's visions?

A little

3) After meeting with Rand in Far Madding, does the Borderlander army return to the Borderlands?

He made an ultimatum for them -either they follow him -then he makes gateways, or not, and then -thay walk all the way back on foot :) And miss the TG. I don't recall their answer being specified.

Is anyone sending backup to Lan?

Not mentioned :( Rand said "Not yet"

Ah right, forgot about Alanna. Oh well.. She is easy to track, that with randbond, and probaly the cloud thing.

[Man on the edge]

who killed tons of trollocs if not Elayne?

[Satsuoni]

Rand, of course

[Man on the edge]

in Caemlyn or Borderlands?