Light Burn Me! : Annoying Female Characters

[EmeraldCastrol]

I really think you should add Min to the list. During my first read of the series I found her irritating but after reading it again I've decided I can't stand her. I prefer Lanfear to her. I hope Min gets killed off in AMoL but fat chance of that happening.

 

She has absolutely no honour (there is no reason for Elayne and Aviendha to like her other than Jordan saying so), is greedy (hogs Rand to herself), and is the most fake and pretentious of the female characters. She's arrogant and looks down on feminity and girlishness but insists on wearing tailor made, skin tight breeches with floral embroidery on it??? She's as bad as Beyonce - in a tailor made police shirt so it'll look good on her for a music video. Min can't even channel and she takes for granted Elayne's and Aviendha's genorosity in including her in their bond with Rand - and then what does she do? Runs off with him. I actually feel most sorry for Elayne regarding the little time she gets to spend with Rand.

 

She acts as if she really cares about Rand but its her fault that he loses his hand and for putting him in the tight spot with Semirage and the male a'dam (and he still can't see it). What I really can't stand about Min is that her character is the most unrealistic and poorly crafted of the females, sure they can be annoying but she's like the ultimate girl-next-door male fantasy - the tomboy who's too pretty to actually be one, big breasted, she grew up tending horses but somehow she enjoys intellectual books. And where was this interest ten years ago when she preferred horses to books? She might as well be a prophecy sprouting blow up doll as to how real she is. If you want the real thing, take a look at Birgitte.

 

After Min, the next person on my dislike list is Egwene, for being a hypocrite and having poor judgement (listening to Liandrin and Halima despite Nynaeve's warnings). And then Alanna (for forcing a bond on Rand) and then Joline (for being an ungrateful brat to Mat after all he pulled to get her out of Ebou Dar).

 

From my rereading, I like Nynaeve's character best, but I find Tuon most interesting. Birgitte and Suian are very likeable. And I actually like Aviendha, Elayne and Faile. If you think they are annoying, read E.Feist's female characters. To me, annoying is preferable over dislikeable any day.

[Jon Paul]

In defence of Min.. how can you say that she "hogs" Rand all to her self? In case you forgot, Rand needs her, loves her, more than he does anyone else. Even throughout all his time spent with Elayne (which its self amounts to about a week all-in-all) and Avi' Min was always in his mind. Tough luck for Elayne and Avi'. But it's not as if he owes them anything. All they have ever done with him is bitch at him and screw up his head. Avi is an arrogant cow and Elayne is a stuck-up little girl trying to play at being a woman.

 

And you think Elayne and Avi were being "kind" by including her in the bond? They had no choice. Rand would have flat-out said no to them. And remember, it was Min who went to Elayne with news of Rand's arrival. If it wasn't for her kindness Elayne wouldn't have gotten her Warder never mind her children.

 

Yea, you'll no doubt argue that Elayne and Avi' have other "responsibilities" to be about instead of being with Rand all the time. That is rubbish though. Elayne and Avi' only give a fig about their responsibility when it suits them. One abandoned her realm for months because she wanted to play the hero with the Bowl and the other took invaluable time from her training to go and settle some warped sense of "obligation" to fix things with her owned screwed up head.

 

Oh and why do you think Min didn't spend her spare time pursuing philosophical treatises on the nature of reality and the Dragon's struggle when she was living in Baerlon and playing the Mines? It's a little obvious if you ask me.

[cgk84]

Nyneave is now my favourite female character as she seems to be one of the few, if not the only one, to realise that Rand in particular but others like Mat, Perrin and Lan need support not manipulation and control to face the awful things they are going to have to face. Though in fairness she did manipulate Lan in the Boarderlands but I'll forgive that as she was trying to ensure her husband's best chance for survival as opposed to being an Aes Sedai trying to manipulate a king.

 

I quite like Setalle too. In the past she has towed the party line of "All men are idiots, all us women know better and you are the worst offender for thinking it's the other way round Matrim" but overall I do like how she gets on with Mat.

 

Cadsuane I've actually mellowed towards in the most recent books. I think she's (maybe) slowly coming round to Nyneave's point of view that she needs to support Rand not manipulate him. Though that might be because she realise's he's changed...

 

I found Elayne bearable until she got actual power when she took the throne. Then she gave into the worst aspects of her spoiled personality, in particular how she treats everyone who isn't Birgitte. Actually it was the same with Egwene. I found her bearable until she was raised to the Seat. It's been downhill at an ever increasing pace since then.

 

Speaking of Birgitte, she's my second favourite female character. I'm sure there must be a few Green Ajah like her somewhere but until they are written Birgitte is pretty much the anomaly in Randland Female Matrix; a woman who likes men for being men and loves drinking and fighting and strangest of all doesn't have an inherent sense of superiority to the men and if any woman deserves to have that it's Birgitte bloody Silverbow. No One Power to make things easy for her! I mean who doesn't love the scenes with her and Mat on a bender?! Or just any scene where her and Mat are together. Hell, she's a much better match for Mat than Tuon is, even if he is too pretty for her

[Elan Tedronai]

Elayne: damn what's the point of her?

Aviendha: someone throw the uppity aiel tool into the waste.

Faile: managed to turn perrin into a wuss. Congrats

Tuon: This fool thinks she owns everything. she and her empire needs to be erased from existence.

[Morh]

I have actually always wondered why RJ made all the women in WOT so damn annoying... with a few exeptions. Maybe female readers thinks that the women in WOT are cool? I don't know, but I bet most male readers thinks like me.

 

My exeptions:

 

- Egwene during her capture in the WT.

 

- Nynaeve in the last two books. Used to really really hate her before, but now she is fine.

 

- Min... well she have never annoyed me but she is kinda useless so...

 

- Moiraine were always cool.

 

- Verin F*** yea!

 

Hmm all that I could think of right now... ouch

[EmeraldCastrol]

In defence of Min.. how can you say that she "hogs" Rand all to her self? In case you forgot, Rand needs her, loves her, more than he does anyone else...

 

I'm surprised you think Aviendha is arrogant. I found her one of the most humble characters. It is obvious that Min hogs Rand to herself, even you've admit to it by trying to justify it by saying that Rand loves her more than the other two. I would like to agree with you on this because thats the way it looks to me as well but I know that even though Rand may spend more time with her than the other two, and it may appear that he loves her more than them, but we know this is not true because 1. Min's prophecy shows him loving 3 women equally (i.e. this is the same as saying because RJ says so), 2. the bond wouldn't lie. If Elayne and Aviendha felt that Rand loved Min more than any of them, they would feel it through the bond and furthermore, be insecure. However they are not insecure showing this is not true and they DO have other responsibilities, being Queen of Andor and Aiel wisewoman, no small roles. But what is Min good for? Prophetic viewings that can't help in any way except to get her own way with Rand. She is absolutely useless and utterly dislikeable as a character. If she can figure out the riddle of the Dark One's seals, it is the least she could do, no matter how unrealistic it is.

 

You saying that Rand would have flat out refused Elayne her bond is conditional upon him loving Min the most. Because this isn't true, there is no evidence that he would have refused Elayne's request. He knew she was going to be Aes Sedai and as he initially agreed to be Egwene's warder before he lost any feelings for her, it is actually very likely that he would do the same for Elayne.

 

Yes, Min dragged Rand to do his duty by Elayne and Aviendha but I believe this is motivated by two things - 1. Her guilt as she knows she has to share him with them, and 2. She is so obsessed with the idea that she is a nice person that she can't be herself. But it's impossible for her to be 'herself' as if she looks into herself she'd see there's nothing but an empty, useless, narcissistic shell.

 

I will be so pissed off if Rand dies at the end of MoL and Min decides to die with him, leaving Elayne and Aviendha as single mums to look after his rotten offspring who will end up bringing the doom of the Aiel (thanks again Min for that prophecy).

 

There are three characters in WOT whose judgement can always be trusted - Nynaeve, Mat and Aviendha. Nynaeve and Mat don't care about Min (Mat cares more about Elayne) and Aviendha has tried to like her but can't help still disliking her and that's got to say something. Elayne and Aviendha readily accepted each other as first sisters but Aviendha is hesitant that she can accept Min as one.

 

I have actually always wondered why RJ made all the women in WOT so damn annoying... with a few exeptions. Maybe female readers thinks that the women in WOT are cool? I don't know, but I bet most male readers thinks like me.

 

I'm a female reader and I'm not sure that I think the female characters are cool. I remember telling my husband that RJ has really weird notions of females because he seems to like thinking that they are all superiorly self-possessed and annoyingly bossy. But after a while I got used to them. If the females were real life people, I'd say I'd probably get on best with Aviendha and Birgitte, even though I'd like Nynaeve for her good judgement even if I think she'd be annoying at times.

 

That said, this thread is about annoying female characters. If there was a thread about annoying male characters, I wonder who would top the list? My guess would be Rand or Gawyn (even though I like Gawyn!).

[Morh]

There sure are alot of male characters that annoys me too, like Gawyn, Galad, Perrin and so on :P

[capuga]

However they are not insecure showing this is not true and they DO have other responsibilities, being Queen of Andor and Aiel wisewoman, no small roles. But what is Min good for? Prophetic viewings that can't help in any way except to get her own way with Rand. She is absolutely useless and utterly dislikeable as a character. If she can figure out the riddle of the Dark One's seals, it is the least she could do, no matter how unrealistic it is.

 

How is it Min's fault that she isn't a queen or an Aiel Wise One? That makes her a terrible person? Her responsibility, and one that turns out to be far more important to the world, it to keep Rand human. It's not her fault that the other two can't spend as much time with Rand as she can. It is not selfish to want to be around the man you love. And she uses her viewings to try and help Rand, not in some scheme to get her way with him. That is pretty much the only thing you ever see from Min - unconditional love and support for Rand and a desire to help him in whatever way she can. It is largely through her love and support that Rand stays somewhat sane and stable as long as he does. Could/would have one of his other two woman have been able to do this? Probably, but as you said they have other responsibilities and are not able to give Rand the humanizing support that he needs. Min is and thus is far from "useless". As for "utterly dislikeable"? She is nothing but a good and sweet person to Rand and pretty much everyone else. I can understand an argument that she is not interesting or doesn't do much but be Rand's girlfriend (neither of which I agree with), but the venom and hate you seem to have for her is frankly strange to me.

 

You saying that Rand would have flat out refused Elayne her bond is conditional upon him loving Min the most. Because this isn't true, there is no evidence that he would have refused Elayne's request. He knew she was going to be Aes Sedai and as he initially agreed to be Egwene's warder before he lost any feelings for her, it is actually very likely that he would do the same for Elayne.

 

I don't ever remember Rand agreeing to be Egwene's warder. And I find it unlikely that he would have bonded Elayne without the inclusion of the other two. He states flat out that he loves them each the same. I find it strange that you have a problem with Rand and Min together but seem OK with Elayne. At least Avi and Min spend time with Rand and actually develop a relationship. Elayne has spent a total of about two weeks with Rand. They have probably the least believable relationship in the books.

 

Yes, Min dragged Rand to do his duty by Elayne and Aviendha but I believe this is motivated by two things - 1. Her guilt as she knows she has to share him with them, and 2. She is so obsessed with the idea that she is a nice person that she can't be herself. But it's impossible for her to be 'herself' as if she looks into herself she'd see there's nothing but an empty, useless, narcissistic shell.

 

If she was so narcissistic she would have said nothing to Elayne and Avi like Rand asked her to and kept him all to herself. Instead she selflessly makes sure to include her friends in the relationship.

 

I will be so pissed off if Rand dies at the end of MoL and Min decides to die with him, leaving Elayne and Aviendha as single mums to look after his rotten offspring who will end up bringing the doom of the Aiel (thanks again Min for that prophecy).

 

This contains a ToM spoiler that doesn't belong on this board and, is in fact, completely wrong since it was not Min's prophecy. Also, what she sees in her visions are not her fault, she has no control over them.

 

There are three characters in WOT whose judgement can always be trusted - Nynaeve, Mat and Aviendha. Nynaeve and Mat don't care about Min (Mat cares more about Elayne) and Aviendha has tried to like her but can't help still disliking her and that's got to say something. Elayne and Aviendha readily accepted each other as first sisters but Aviendha is hesitant that she can accept Min as one.

 

So Nynaeve's irrational hatred of Moiraine should always be trusted? Mat and his decision to explore Shadar Logoth should always be trusted? Aviendha with her desire to stab anything she doesn't like should always be trusted? These are just examples - they, like everyone else, have lapses in judgement, and are not who I would put forth as the greatest character judges in the series. Nynaeve and Mat are not close with Min because they don't spend much time around her to develop a friendship. However, neither actually dislikes her. And Elayne and Aviendha become first sisters after a long time spent together getting to be friends. Aviendha hasn't had that chance with Min. Her comments express her unfamiliarity with Min, not her dislike.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Anyone find the whole Tylin - Mat thing a little disturbing?

 

At first it was the usual, Mat roguishness, you think "oh man, a queen? Mat you rascal!"...and then the tables turn! He's the one being 'pursued'.

 

I love Mat, but decided this was comeuppance for all the 'fooling around' and bar maids over the last few books...

 

And then it got a little creepy.

 

He losses freedom of movement (or at least where he's allowed to sleep), he is forced to dress a certain way as per Tylin's wants, then when he tries to get out the ante gets upped and he's basically starved until he 'forms up'. We even see a bit of insight into the bedroom where he's physically tied up...both metaphorically and physically he's trapped.

 

 

And what really brings it into focus was when 'the girls' find out that he's not the one seducing the queen, but her that is basically raping him...and they laugh about it.

 

What if the situation was reversed?

 

Holding a queen prisoner, denying her the rights to sleep anywhere but where you deem, refusing to feed her, tying her to a bed and raping her? Wow. Dark much?

 

 

 

I find myself asking the "What if the situation was reversed?" a lot in this book. And in most cases where 'the wonder girls' are doing something stupid, the reverse comes off as extremely sexist in light cases and probably criminal in others...

 

The double standard REALLY grates. The only thing that trumps it is the superiority complex/entitlement of most of the characters in the book...as everyone else has already commented on...

 

 

THESE are the reasons I find most of the 'light side' women incredibly frustrating to the point of hating them.

 

[gambril]

Anyone find the whole Tylin - Mat thing a little disturbing?

 

At first it was the usual, Mat roguishness, you think "oh man, a queen? Mat you rascal!"...and then the tables turn! He's the one being 'pursued'.

 

I love Mat, but decided this was comeuppance for all the 'fooling around' and bar maids over the last few books...

 

And then it got a little creepy.

 

He losses freedom of movement (or at least where he's allowed to sleep), he is forced to dress a certain way as per Tylin's wants, then when he tries to get out the ante gets upped and he's basically starved until he 'forms up'. We even see a bit of insight into the bedroom where he's physically tied up...both metaphorically and physically he's trapped.

 

 

And what really brings it into focus was when 'the girls' find out that he's not the one seducing the queen, but her that is basically raping him...and they laugh about it.

 

What if the situation was reversed?

 

Holding a queen prisoner, denying her the rights to sleep anywhere but where you deem, refusing to feed her, tying her to a bed and raping her? Wow. Dark much?

 

 

 

I find myself asking the "What if the situation was reversed?" a lot in this book. And in most cases where 'the wonder girls' are doing something stupid, the reverse comes off as extremely sexist in light cases and probably criminal in others...

 

The double standard REALLY grates. The only thing that trumps it is the superiority complex/entitlement of most of the characters in the book...as everyone else has already commented on...

 

 

THESE are the reasons I find most of the 'light side' women incredibly frustrating to the point of hating them.

 

 

The Tylin - Mat 'relationship' can be grating if you let it be. The worst part, as you pointed out, was specifically Elayne's reaction when he told her how it really was. She goes from being angry enough to abolish all promises she made to Mat about the situation to laughing about it when it wasn't how she thought it was, it was how she thought it was... just the other way around, heh. C'est la vie for a man in today's world though I suppose.

[David Selig]

To be fair to the women, it has to be said that Mat didn't tell Elayne he was practically raped by Tylin who was holding a knife to his body at the time. He told her Tylin had been chasing him really aggressively, but no more. Her reaction at first was still pretty bad, of course, but not "make fun of a rape" terrible.

 

Also Elayne apologised for this two pages later.

 

Still the whole Mat - Tylin relationship remains creepy, trying to play up what is pretty much a rape for laughs wasn't a good idea by Jordan.

 

There are three characters in WOT whose judgement can always be trusted - Nynaeve, Mat and Aviendha. Nynaeve and Mat don't care about Min (Mat cares more about Elayne) and Aviendha has tried to like her but can't help still disliking her and that's got to say something. Elayne and Aviendha readily accepted each other as first sisters but Aviendha is hesitant that she can accept Min as one.

IIRC Mat has never even spoken to Min so far in the series. He noticed her briefly in Baerlon in TEOTW and that was the only time they've been together in a scene in the whole series. They must've met again briefly after the end of TGH before Mat went to Tar Valon, but this happened offscreen and chances are he's probably forgotten it anyway due to the dagger influence. Naturally he has no opinion of her, probably except that she's hot. ;)

[EmeraldCastrol]

How is it Min's fault that she isn't a queen or an Aiel Wise One? That makes her a terrible person? Her responsibility, and one that turns out to be far more important to the world, it to keep Rand human. It's not her fault that the other two can't spend as much time with Rand as she can. It is not selfish to want to be around the man you love. And she uses her viewings to try and help Rand, not in some scheme to get her way with him. That is pretty much the only thing you ever see from Min - unconditional love and support for Rand and a desire to help him in whatever way she can. It is largely through her love and support that Rand stays somewhat sane and stable as long as he does.

 

And she does such a good job of keeping Rand sane, NOT!!!! She wasn't the one that helped humanize him again, Tam was. Rand has a tendency to take things too seriously and I can't see how Min helps him in this regard because she thinks she has to be just as serious. Aviendha and her Aiel sense of humour is more healthy for Rand. Min, in thinking that she has to be everywhere Rand is, is actually being selfish. She excuses this by saying she that loves him and is helping him but to me, this seems so false of her. Instead Rand becomes so obsessed with keeping her safe that I feel it contributed to his dehumanization, it definately contributed to him losing his left hand.

 

As for "utterly dislikeable"? She is nothing but a good and sweet person to Rand and pretty much everyone else. I can understand an argument that she is not interesting or doesn't do much but be Rand's girlfriend (neither of which I agree with), but the venom and hate you seem to have for her is frankly strange to me.

 

Just because a person likes to come across as 'good and sweet' does not make them likeable. I like flaws. I like real humans. This is what people look for when they read, characters they can relate to and like. Characters they understand. Not characters they are told to like, are told are sweet and good, are told are needed. There really is no point in talking me out of my dislike for Min. I found her so unbearable in my reread of WOT that I will welcome any excuse to express it.

 

Elayne has spent a total of about two weeks with Rand. They have probably the least believable relationship in the books.

 

Yes, I agree. And I feel sorry for Elayne. It's very good of her that she can be content with the thought of her babies.

 

This contains a ToM spoiler that doesn't belong on this board and, is in fact, completely wrong since it was not Min's prophecy. Also, what she sees in her visions are not her fault, she has no control over them.

 

No, it doesn't. It is in an earlier book that Min tells Aviendha that she will bear four of Rand's kids. Healthy but something weird about them. The fortune teller's etiquette requests that if its bad news, don't say it. So Min should have said nothing. Admittedly, RJ probably needed to include it as foreshadowing but he has added to Min's dislikeableness by doing so. And the Aiel were always aware that their Caracarn would bring the doom of the Aiel. You are probably thinking of something else, relating to Aviendha, explaining this prophecy in more detail.

 

So Nynaeve's irrational hatred of Moiraine should always be trusted? Mat and his decision to explore Shadar Logoth should always be trusted? Aviendha with her desire to stab anything she doesn't like should always be trusted? These are just examples - they, like everyone else, have lapses in judgement, and are not who I would put forth as the greatest character judges in the series.

 

The reason why their judgement can be trusted is that they are unreliable narrators. They are unreliable because they are the only ones who are completely honest to themselves and their emotions. Through their honesty does the reader see reflected the true characters of everyone else around them. This does not make them perfectly correct in everything they do. They still make wrong decisions and they still feel jealousy over those they love.

 

Aviendha hasn't had that chance with Min. Her comments express her unfamiliarity with Min, not her dislike.

 

Aviendha liked Egwene and Elayne straight away. People generally know who they like or dislike within moments.

 

Still the whole Mat - Tylin relationship remains creepy, trying to play up what is pretty much a rape for laughs wasn't a good idea by Jordan.

 

You really think so? I actually found their relationship amusing. Mat might go on about it being a 'rape' but can a man really be forced into an erection (without anal stimulus)? And afterwards, he does admit that he was fond of Tylin.

 

But yeah, those pink ribbons Tylin dressed him in (and Mat let her!!) ... creepy =P

[Lupy]

Anyone find the whole Tylin - Mat thing a little disturbing?

 

At first it was the usual, Mat roguishness, you think "oh man, a queen? Mat you rascal!"...and then the tables turn! He's the one being 'pursued'.

 

I love Mat, but decided this was comeuppance for all the 'fooling around' and bar maids over the last few books...

 

And then it got a little creepy.

 

He losses freedom of movement (or at least where he's allowed to sleep), he is forced to dress a certain way as per Tylin's wants, then when he tries to get out the ante gets upped and he's basically starved until he 'forms up'. We even see a bit of insight into the bedroom where he's physically tied up...both metaphorically and physically he's trapped.

 

 

And what really brings it into focus was when 'the girls' find out that he's not the one seducing the queen, but her that is basically raping him...and they laugh about it.

 

What if the situation was reversed?

 

Holding a queen prisoner, denying her the rights to sleep anywhere but where you deem, refusing to feed her, tying her to a bed and raping her? Wow. Dark much?

 

 

 

I find myself asking the "What if the situation was reversed?" a lot in this book. And in most cases where 'the wonder girls' are doing something stupid, the reverse comes off as extremely sexist in light cases and probably criminal in others...

 

The double standard REALLY grates. The only thing that trumps it is the superiority complex/entitlement of most of the characters in the book...as everyone else has already commented on...

 

 

THESE are the reasons I find most of the 'light side' women incredibly frustrating to the point of hating them.

 

 

I'm glad that other people thought this part of the books was creepy as well. I really felt for Mat, his being trapped between an abusive woman holding him hostage and pretty much raping him, and being trapped by his oath to Rand. I think it's best for Beslan if Tuon never finds out about that.

[white_wolf]

I actually like Tuon. I mean sure I would hate to live under her rule in real life,but I think what a lot of people on these forums forget is that a modern western style democracy does not exist anywhere in these books so of course compared to our own countries Seanchan is terrible, but compared to countries of the Westlands it isn't that bad. In some ways it is worse in some ways it is better. Infact I actually like her more than any Aes Sedai, because at least her arrogance makes sense. She is the ruler of a massive empire larger than any other country in the world, while the Aes Sedai are just as arrogant as her and have the nerve to call themselves "Servants of all"

[moratcorlm]

I actually found their relationship amusing. Mat might go on about it being a 'rape'

Well, he actually did not go on about it being a rape, because, as you say, Jordan played the whole thing for laughs. It's the readers who noticed that Tylin's actions constituted rape. Which they did. Period.

[White_star]

 

You saying that Rand would have flat out refused Elayne her bond is conditional upon him loving Min the most. Because this isn't true, there is no evidence that he would have refused Elayne's request. He knew she was going to be Aes Sedai and as he initially agreed to be Egwene's warder before he lost any feelings for her, it is actually very likely that he would do the same for Elayne.

I don't ever remember Rand agreeing to be Egwene's warder. And I find it unlikely that he would have bonded Elayne without the inclusion of the other two. He states flat out that he loves them each the same. I find it strange that you have a problem with Rand and Min together but seem OK with Elayne. At least Avi and Min spend time with Rand and actually develop a relationship. Elayne has spent a total of about two weeks with Rand. They have probably the least believable relationship in the books.

 

 

I think it was toward the end of TEotW on their way to the Eye. In response to Nynaeve Egwene says something like "see Rand, we'll all be together. I know, you could be my warder. You'd like that wouldn't you? My warder?"

 

I wouldn't call it "agreeing to be". All Rand said was "I'd like being your warder". He knew what Min had said about them not meant for each other but he didn't want to hurt her feelings.

[EmeraldCastrol]

I think it was toward the end of TEotW on their way to the Eye. In response to Nynaeve Egwene says something like "see Rand, we'll all be together. I know, you could be my warder. You'd like that wouldn't you? My warder?"

 

I wouldn't call it "agreeing to be". All Rand said was "I'd like being your warder". He knew what Min had said about them not meant for each other but he didn't want to hurt her feelings.

 

Thank you, White_star, I knew it was there somewhere. To me, it sounds as if he IS agreeing. At this point, even though Min has told him that he and Egwene are not meant for each other, they are still sad about it. He doesn't realise he has fallen out of love with her yet until they are in Tear.

 

Yes, Rand didn't want to hurt her feelings. I really missed the old Rand, who genuinely cared about others, in tEoTW and tGH. In fact, I am pretty sure that he doesn't change into the self-pitying 'I need to be a human weapon' version of himself until Min started being all possessive over him (sorry I couldn't resist putting that in, I really hate that girl). Good on Tam for bringing him back!

[capuga]

How is it Min's fault that she isn't a queen or an Aiel Wise One? That makes her a terrible person? Her responsibility, and one that turns out to be far more important to the world, it to keep Rand human. It's not her fault that the other two can't spend as much time with Rand as she can. It is not selfish to want to be around the man you love. And she uses her viewings to try and help Rand, not in some scheme to get her way with him. That is pretty much the only thing you ever see from Min - unconditional love and support for Rand and a desire to help him in whatever way she can. It is largely through her love and support that Rand stays somewhat sane and stable as long as he does.

 

And she does such a good job of keeping Rand sane, NOT!!!! She wasn't the one that helped humanize him again, Tam was. Rand has a tendency to take things too seriously and I can't see how Min helps him in this regard because she thinks she has to be just as serious. Aviendha and her Aiel sense of humour is more healthy for Rand. Min, in thinking that she has to be everywhere Rand is, is actually being selfish. She excuses this by saying she that loves him and is helping him but to me, this seems so false of her. Instead Rand becomes so obsessed with keeping her safe that I feel it contributed to his dehumanization, it definately contributed to him losing his left hand.

 

I will agree that Min is largely responsible for Rand losing his hand (although Rand should have refused to bring her). But I view that as a mistake not as her being selfish. I think she really thought she could help him with her viewings and protect him with her knives. And her love and support do keep him human for much longer than he would have otherwise. He would have been on top of Dragonmount thinking of destroying the world long before he did without her. And he might have made a different choice without that love. Would Avi be better for him? Maybe (she's actually my favorite of the three) but she is not able to be around Rand to give him the love he needed. Neither was Elayne.

 

As for "utterly dislikeable"? She is nothing but a good and sweet person to Rand and pretty much everyone else. I can understand an argument that she is not interesting or doesn't do much but be Rand's girlfriend (neither of which I agree with), but the venom and hate you seem to have for her is frankly strange to me.

 

Just because a person likes to come across as 'good and sweet' does not make them likeable. I like flaws. I like real humans. This is what people look for when they read, characters they can relate to and like. Characters they understand. Not characters they are told to like, are told are sweet and good, are told are needed. There really is no point in talking me out of my dislike for Min. I found her so unbearable in my reread of WOT that I will welcome any excuse to express it.

 

This is what seems strange to me. Its not that you don't like Min. Different people like different type of characters. And your first few sentences are some of the reasons that some people don't like Min. But those reasons usually just produce a "meh" type feeling. They don't seem like the kind of problems that should inspire hate.

 

This contains a ToM spoiler that doesn't belong on this board and, is in fact, completely wrong since it was not Min's prophecy. Also, what she sees in her visions are not her fault, she has no control over them.

 

No, it doesn't. It is in an earlier book that Min tells Aviendha that she will bear four of Rand's kids. Healthy but something weird about them. The fortune teller's etiquette requests that if its bad news, don't say it. So Min should have said nothing. Admittedly, RJ probably needed to include it as foreshadowing but he has added to Min's dislikeableness by doing so. And the Aiel were always aware that their Caracarn would bring the doom of the Aiel. You are probably thinking of something else, relating to Aviendha, explaining this prophecy in more detail.

 

My apologies. I thought you were referring to a different vision. And saying that Avi will have four of Rand's kids and that they will be healthy but something will be strange isn't really mean or related to Rand breaking the Aiel. And did she say it to Avi? I can't remember if she even knows about it.

 

Aviendha hasn't had that chance with Min. Her comments express her unfamiliarity with Min, not her dislike.

 

Aviendha liked Egwene and Elayne straight away. People generally know who they like or dislike within moments.

 

You have to remember that part of the afinity that Avi had for Egwene and Elayne in the beginning was because they could channel. I think its likely that Avi and Min will get along just fine once they get to know each other better.

 

Still the whole Mat - Tylin relationship remains creepy, trying to play up what is pretty much a rape for laughs wasn't a good idea by Jordan.

 

You really think so? I actually found their relationship amusing. Mat might go on about it being a 'rape' but can a man really be forced into an erection (without anal stimulus)? And afterwards, he does admit that he was fond of Tylin.

 

I always read it as mostly amusing also, but you have to admit that if you reverse the genders the situation would become a lot less funny. And the things like preventing him from eating and forcibly keeping him from leaving are way out of line.

[Ihasavowel]

Anyone find the whole Tylin - Mat thing a little disturbing?

Yes, to the extent where the first read through, I told myself that I had a foul mind and was mistaken entirely in my interpretation, but no matter how many times I re-read it, I just could not come up with any other sensible interpretation.

 

 

And what really brings it into focus was when 'the girls' find out that he's not the one seducing the queen, but her that is basically raping him...and they laugh about it.

Which is really yuk in my opinion. It does not exactly cast R.J. in a very good light, because the most sensible interpretation is that R.J. thinks men being raped is amusing.

What if the situation was reversed?

 

Holding a queen prisoner, denying her the rights to sleep anywhere but where you deem, refusing to feed her, tying her to a bed and raping her? Wow. Dark much?

Well Mat's not a Queen, so it's not exactly a reversal of his situation. But as it happens, we do have a Queen in WoT who was held prisoner, forced to move to and live in a particular place, and eventually raped (and horribly made to verbally agree to the rape under threat of further torture). Granted she was not starved and seems to have been allowed to wear whatever she pleased, but I dare say whatever Asunawa did to get her to say "yes" to being raped by Valda, was at least as unpleasant as missing a few meals and being made to wear pink lace.

 

Of course, R.J. has at least so much taste and sense to not try to make the rape of Morgase into comedic relief, and to me this is a very important distinction.

 

 

 

I really have no idea what kind of thinking was going through R.J.'s head when he came up with and wrote the whole raping of Mat storyline as some kind of comedy. Mat is really very young (a teen in fact) and is being exploited, physically and sexually assaulted, and involuntarily dominated by a much, much older person, who has a great deal of power over him in the circumstances.

 

It's really very disgusting and not the least bit amusing.

 

Worse still, I suspect Mat, despite enjoying a cudde and more besides, had probably never been "all the way" before Tylin. So we have a very powerful person, exploiting their power to rape a teenaged virgin, and who chooses to structure the rapes as BDSM. R.J. thought we should all be amused by this!

 

Very yuk and very creepy.

 

Edit to add: I noticed someone above refers to the fact that Mat no doubt achieved an erection and seems to imply that this amounts to consent.

 

The fact of an erection is not proof of consent. In the first instance, erections can occur in situations of stress and fear. More to the point, physical pleasure is not consent. A two year old can be caused to feel sexual pleasure, but only a complete creep would construe this as consent.

Being physically "turned on" and consenting to sexual activity are two entirely different things.

[David Selig]

Mat was not a virgin before he met Tylin by any means. He clearly slept with Melindra for one thing. And Jordan confirmed in interviews that Mat had slept with plenty of other women.

 

Not that this makes the whole situation less creepy, at least to me.

[Ihasavowel]

Mat was not a virgin before he met Tylin by any means. He clearly slept with Melindra for one thing.

 

Duh!

 

I totally forgot about her, which is silly because I am re-reading the books and just last night was reading part of a book where Mat referred to Melindra in a POV.

 

 

Maybe I should stop thinking about making myself a cup of coffee and just do it!

[EmeraldCastrol]

lol I actually don't think Mat minded too terribly his ordeal under Tylin so there's no reason to feel offended for him

He's just having a whine, like he always does but he's had plenty of sexual encounters previously, just that usually it's him doing the chasing

To me, it's the double standard which is the annoying thing about it all, and makes the female characters more dislikeable

[gambril]

Mat was not a virgin...remember Tylin making the comment after they had sex something like...."If that's what it's like to be ta'veren then you..."

. To me that said, as Mat would say, he knew what he was about.

[randsc]

It hardly matters whether Mat was a virgin. Min, Aviendha, and Elayne aren't either. If RJ had depicted any of them being repeatedly tied to a bed, having their clothes cut off, and being denied food until they submitted sexually, I guarantee any male character who found the thought amusing would be universally hated. With complete justification.

[Dbob]

Yeah, it’s rape. If you reverse the genders there would be no one chuckling or saying otherwise. Which kinda points out where the double standard actually is.

 

The idea that a man can be treated in that way and it isn’t rape, as a matter of fact it’s comic relief – is predicated on the assumption that men are strong and women are weak and it’s the woman that gets victimized. It’s misogynistic – akin to the amusing humor of executives chasing secretaries around desks out of the 50’s.

 

Now if Matt had told her somewhere before she stalked and starved, and tied him to a bed with a knife at his throat – that that’s what he wanted, that would be a different thing, but he kept saying no, and she used her authority against him. Rape.

 

That said, this is just a fairly egregious example of the whole dominatrix undertone running through a lot of Jordan’s writing. All the spanking and slippering, the bossy, pushy woman, the women in collars, etc that makes me think that maybe the women act the way they do because Jordan has some affinity for that kind of thing. This is fine, but not universal by any means. It might also explain why guys who aren’t into that don’t find a lot of this kind of behavior particularly charming.

 

Just a thought.