Disappointed in the Children of the Light

[Abutt]

Oh, also: it seems kinda like you're buying into their PR a bit. They like to present the image of being awesome and badass, but it's kinda the whole point that they're actually not that great, just really arrogant. I mean, they spend most of their time attacking people who can't really fight back, and not doing much in the way of real fighting against actual competent and effective militaries.

Not at all actually... All I am saying, is that you would think they would be an elite force. Im not talking about their philosphy at all here, if you were to actually read my first post on this thread, you would know that.

 

I'm saying their rep as presented in the books is influencing your ideas of what they "should" be, and thus influencing the stuff you wrote.

I dont think that they are bad ass though. Thats exactly what I am saying, that they should be bad ass, not because they act like they are bad ass, but because well, the quote below says it all

I mean, considering they are supposed to be a military organization, then in that respect, yeah, I think that they should have better quality soldiers, as it is their profession. But in reality, they are like Andorian/Cairhein/Illianer/Tarien soldiers.

[Crael123]

Obviously their philosophy sucks. And I hate how they accuse nearly everyone as being a dark friend but, you would think that because they are strictly just an army, that they would kick ass. But so far, we have seen none, only them getting their ass kicked or running away. I hope they actually manage to do something good by the end of the series. Your thoughts?

 

They are just like any religious faction to me.

 

The original religion is corrupted by select few humans who do things for greed and power. It happens in every single religious institute.

 

But in its barest form, the religion has good morals etc. Just people always mess it up.

Agreed

 

 

I disagree. how can you say that. so just because some catholic priest rapes a little boy, all Catholics are "corrupted" ??

 

Just because some Muslim extremest is a suicide bomber all Muslims are bad?

 

I disagree or maybe just didn't see what your saying but... no im sorry that is completely untrue and i find that a little offensive.

 

I am afraid you completely missed the point. Read the other posts before you comment with something like this.

 

okay im glad to hear that. il edit the post. my bad.

[jdbond]

Only fake Blademaster in whole series is Gawyn. He never sounded like a promising candidate (Mat took down both brothers alone) and suddenly he started beating many warders all by himself! For Rand, I would say it's genetics. He is a freaking Aiel. I wonder if Aiel took sword, how many of them will end up being a blademaster.

 

Add Galad and Valda to the list.

[Crael123]

okay good. im sorry i misunderstood the post. i edited it.

[Durinax]

IMO whitecloaks are a unified militaristic presence that has fallen from its peak. Personally I think the whitecloaks have been becomign weaker and weaker since the whitecloak wars. They are basically as good as teh soldiers of amador (since they basically are). The only thing that is different for them is their fanaticism, which we have also seen fail epicly in the face of what they say their main enemy is AS.

 

I think people play them up because we have seen multiple great swordsmen come from their rank (galad, guy galad kills, Nial) but all in all they are no better than andorans or tairens or illianers.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Obviously their philosophy sucks. And I hate how they accuse nearly everyone as being a dark friend but, you would think that because they are strictly just an army, that they would kick ass. But so far, we have seen none, only them getting their ass kicked or running away. I hope they actually manage to do something good by the end of the series. Your thoughts?

 

They are just like any religious faction to me.

 

The original religion is corrupted by select few humans who do things for greed and power. It happens in every single religious institute.

 

But in its barest form, the religion has good morals etc. Just people always mess it up.

Agreed

 

 

I disagree. how can you say that. so just because some catholic priest rapes a little boy, all Catholics are "corrupted" ??

 

Just because some Muslim extremest is a suicide bomber all Muslims are bad?

 

I disagree or maybe just didn't see what your saying but... no im sorry that is completely untrue and i find that a little offensive.

 

I am afraid you completely missed the point. Read the other posts before you comment with something like this.

 

okay im glad to hear that. il edit the post. my bad.

 

No thats completly fine. I just got a bit annoyed when i was being accused of being anti-relgious or whatever the term is. (Religist? hahaha)

[jdbond]

I am anti-religious. They can blame me;)

[BrandonXRoss]

It doesn't really surprise me that the Whitecloaks aren't exactly an elite fighting force. Almost everywhere you see them outside of their main force they roam around in packs of 4 or 5 in cities looking for helpless outcasts to accuse as darkfriends. Where would they actually get any real fighting experience? The one campaign we see them successfully carry out is against untrained peasants and such.

Maybe I'm forgetting something but only a small number of the Whitecloak's actually seem to be competant as either swordsmen or tacticians. It's been suggested by POV segments that their great tacticians, such as Pedron Nile (sp?), and Bornholdt(sp?) accomplished strong victories before the main timeline of the books, but we don't really have much exposition on that...

[LazyMonk]

The Children are LOUSY soldiers!!

It is demonstrated clearly in how the sentries do their duty and how their camps are arrayed, they are blinded by their faith. Like the zealots they are, they are trained to follow command like mindless drones, without looking sideways or personal thoughts.

It is demonstrated in how Bornhald cheerfully rides into battle at Falme without deploying scouts to find out what he's walking into, how Valda clears himself a path to gain speed by butchering refugees, how Dain Bornhald refuses to engage the trollocs.

The only commander of the Children capable of clear thinking was Nial, but then he was "tainted" by Padan Fain... and then there were none.

Also, the Children never really engage in a large scale battle. Their strategy is bullying, intimidation, rousing mobs, showing-off with shiny armor and white cloaks, and slaughtering remote villages when needed.

 

To sum it up, whatever was the idea for creating the Children of Light, it was forgotten. The Children is an entity that has no excuse for existing anyone.

[Mr Ares]

The reason the Whitecloaks do so badly in the books is that their principal opponents are the Seanchan - a channeler backed army. They face an enemy they cannot hope to stand against, and consequently lose. Had they faced a non-magical army, they would have had more success, as they did in the Aiel and Whitecloak Wars prior to the series' beginning.

[Jon Paul]

The reason the Whitecloaks do so badly in the books is that their principal opponents are the Seanchan - a channeler backed army. They face an enemy they cannot hope to stand against, and consequently lose. Had they faced a non-magical army, they would have had more success, as they did in the Aiel and Whitecloak Wars prior to the series' beginning.

 

Mr Ares is spot on.

 

How exactly are they going to be capable of winning battles in the current time when everyone is running around throwing lightening from their hands and fire-bolts from their eyes? Pedron Niall is in the grave, so they don't have a Great Captain to lead them any longer and keep in mind before anyone brings it up that the Little Wolf was hamstrung and near death, the Seanchan war-machine was about to crush him before Rand saved his arse.

 

If you want to honestly evaluate the Children's military prowess then it should be judged up to the time of Rand's declaration of himself. And by all accounts, the Children could kick heads in when necessary. The Whitecloak War was basically Niall steam-rolling over everything in his path until the rest of the nations united against him (Illian, Murandy etcetera). And Nial was second-over all commander of the forces during the Aiel War, after Lord Aglemar.

 

I'm not disappointed in them.

[didymos]

The Whitecloak War was basically Niall steam-rolling over everything in his path until the rest of the nations united against him (Illian, Murandy etcetera).

 

Uh, no, the books say nothing like that. Niall only went up against Illian, Altara, and Murandy...and eventually lost. No one else is known to have had any significant role in that war. Now, Illian is certainly respectable, being a unified, wealthy nation with a sizeable military, but Murandy and Altara aren't exactly known for all-round military awesomeness. Mostly they're known for only barely qualifying as nations. As best as can be told from the books, he never accomplished much (in terms of his own goals for the war, mind you, and not in terms of how well any particular battle during the war went) beyond invading and briefly holding part of northern Altara. Some steamroller that.

 

And Nial was second-over all commander of the forces during the Aiel War, after Lord Aglemar.

 

This is not correct either: the "Grand Coalition" had a weird system of rotating command for a variety of stupid political reasons. Niall was simply in that rotation.

[FarShainMael]

I am anti-religious. They can blame me;)

 

No, we'll forgive you

[FarShainMael]

The reason the Whitecloaks do so badly in the books is that their principal opponents are the Seanchan - a channeler backed army. They face an enemy they cannot hope to stand against, and consequently lose. Had they faced a non-magical army, they would have had more success, as they did in the Aiel and Whitecloak Wars prior to the series' beginning.

 

Mr Ares is spot on.

 

How exactly are they going to be capable of winning battles in the current time when everyone is running around throwing lightening from their hands and fire-bolts from their eyes? Pedron Niall is in the grave, so they don't have a Great Captain to lead them any longer and keep in mind before anyone brings it up that the Little Wolf was hamstrung and near death, the Seanchan war-machine was about to crush him before Rand saved his arse.

 

Wait until they find out that Galad can channel..

[threadnecromancer]

The Whitecloak War was basically Niall steam-rolling over everything in his path until the rest of the nations united against him (Illian, Murandy etcetera).

 

Uh, no, the books say nothing like that. Niall only went up against Illian, Altara, and Murandy...and eventually lost. No one else is known to have had any significant role in that war. Now, Illian is certainly respectable, being a unified, wealthy nation with a sizeable military, but Murandy and Altara aren't exactly known for all-round military awesomeness. Mostly they're known for only barely qualifying as nations. As best as can be told from the books, he never accomplished much (in terms of his own goals for the war, mind you, and not in terms of how well any particular battle during the war went) beyond invading and briefly holding part of northern Altara. Some steamroller that.

 

And Nial was second-over all commander of the forces during the Aiel War, after Lord Aglemar.

 

 

This is not correct either: the "Grand Coalition" had a weird system of rotating command for a variety of stupid political reasons. Niall was simply in that rotation.

 

As I understand "by accident or design" the best leaders (Agelmar, Nial etc) got to be lead the anti-Aiel forces first with the worse leaders ending up later on the list and so fortunately never had the chance to command.

[username13]

I thought that was just the war council. Where Murandy and Altara sent so many representatives that they were once again useless. The five generals simply rotated leadership amongst themselves. Been a long time since I read it though

[bigWalt]

Let the Children Of The Light go the way of the Shaido and pass into the realm of bad memories, and good riddance too them. We saw how they fight Trolocs in Emonds Field, and that is too cowardly to face them.

[bigWalt]

The Children are LOUSY soldiers!!

 

And LOUSY sentries as well.

[Tom Sawyer]

I really don't see how the Whitecloaks are going to be very relevant at all. They have a few thousand soldiers, no channellers, no country under their control anymore, a membership that's hamstrung by zealots and a couple of senior commanders who are still corrupted by Fain. Galad's pretty much just one more leader of a mercenary band which is slightly better equipped than most bands.

 

They look like they'll be more of an afterthought than anything else.

[Jon Paul]

Uh, no, the books say nothing like that. Niall only went up against Illian, Altara, and Murandy...and eventually lost. No one else is known to have had any significant role in that war. Now, Illian is certainly respectable, being a unified, wealthy nation with a sizeable military, but Murandy and Altara aren't exactly known for all-round military awesomeness. Mostly they're known for only barely qualifying as nations. As best as can be told from the books, he never accomplished much (in terms of his own goals for the war, mind you, and not in terms of how well any particular battle during the war went) beyond invading and briefly holding part of northern Altara. Some steamroller that.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that all of the nations united against Niall. I simply meant Illian, Murandy etcetera. Even if Murandy and Altara aren't military bastions, it was hardly a walk in the park facing those three nations. And don't for a minute think Tar Valon didn't have its fingers in the pie, probably helped settle the arguments of the Murandians to organise themselves to face the Children.

 

This is not correct either: the "Grand Coalition" had a weird system of rotating command for a variety of stupid political reasons. Niall was simply in that rotation.

 

Sure, that's what it was meant to be like. But as per threadnecromancer's post, I have read consistently that Aglemar and Niall were basically the two men who commanded the war effort.

[jdbond]

I really don't see how the Whitecloaks are going to be very relevant at all. They have a few thousand soldiers, no channellers, no country under their control anymore, a membership that's hamstrung by zealots and a couple of senior commanders who are still corrupted by Fain. Galad's pretty much just one more leader of a mercenary band which is slightly better equipped than most bands.

 

They look like they'll be more of an afterthought than anything else.

 

 

They will find some respect in ToM I think. New leader will change everything.

[Dagon Thyne]

Obviously their philosophy sucks. And I hate how they accuse nearly everyone as being a dark friend but, you would think that because they are strictly just an army, that they would kick ass. But so far, we have seen none, only them getting their ass kicked or running away. I hope they actually manage to do something good by the end of the series. Your thoughts?

 

 

Their original philosophy and intentions were pure...it was corrupted by greed, anger, and pride...