What has Moiraine been up to in Finnland?

[restausn]

Great ppost Barid..

 

 

[Beren]

Perhaps this is what Moiraine is up to in Finnland?

 

 

This is an Egwene dream about Mat.

 

"In another, a woman, face shrouded in shadow, beckoned him toward great danger; Egwene did not know what, only that it was monstrous."

[Eht Slat Meit]

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

Thanks for the quote and sourcing. Puts an entirely different spin on things, hmmm...

[restausn]

Moiraine's thread will be very important now if she makes it back. She could be something like ta'veren now? If she does, she'll certainly move some threads of the pattern around..

Just like Verin and her books.. That was huge stuff.

[Sharaman]

Thanks for sourcing and confirming Barid.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Happy to help guys.

Also, remember Birgitte says that the Finns are not evil like the Shadow, but so different they might asewll be evil. Of course, she may be wrong, but theres something.

 

I suppose you could say that the Finns are affected by the DO, but they are not creations or spawn of the DO, nor does the DO coome from them. Note that the Finns have souls. They are a 'natural" part of the pattern. Shadowspawn and all things created by the Shadow do not have souls.

 

 

Perhaps this is what Moiraine is up to in Finnland?

 

 

This is an Egwene dream about Mat.

 

"In another, a woman, face shrouded in shadow, beckoned him toward great danger; Egwene did not know what, only that it was monstrous."

 

Nice, I think thats quite possible. The ToG is argueably the most dangerous task Mat has to date. I wouldnt be suprised if it was this. However, if thats the case, "a woman, face shrouded in shadow" is concerning. Of course, it could jsut mean that Egwene cannot see the face, but "shadow" seems to imply that the woman is a Darkfriend or worse. I hope Moiraine isnt a DF, or tainted in some way.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Happy to help guys.

Also, remember Birgitte says that the Finns are not evil like the Shadow, but so different they might asewll be evil. Of course, she may be wrong, but theres something.

 

I suppose you could say that the Finns are affected by the DO, but they are not creations or spawn of the DO, nor does the DO coome from them. Note that the Finns have souls. They are a 'natural" part of the pattern. Shadowspawn and all things created by the Shadow do not have souls.

 

I'd been thinking of this in terms of the DO being so alien to the Pattern that his nature would be considered evil and that he draws people like that to him, this being the commonality with the Finns. However, with that quote you gave, I'm now inclined to think that perhaps I should be looking at the Finns in terms of Padan Fain, a different kind of evil that exists in tandem with but still counter to the Shadow as depicted in the description of Rand's wound.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Happy to help guys.

Also, remember Birgitte says that the Finns are not evil like the Shadow, but so different they might asewll be evil. Of course, she may be wrong, but theres something.

 

I suppose you could say that the Finns are affected by the DO, but they are not creations or spawn of the DO, nor does the DO coome from them. Note that the Finns have souls. They are a 'natural" part of the pattern. Shadowspawn and all things created by the Shadow do not have souls.

 

I'd been thinking of this in terms of the DO being so alien to the Pattern that his nature would be considered evil and that he draws people like that to him, this being the commonality with the Finns. However, with that quote you gave, I'm now inclined to think that perhaps I should be looking at the Finns in terms of Padan Fain, a different kind of evil that exists in tandem with but still counter to the Shadow as depicted in the description of Rand's wound.

 

Yes, they would be more akin to Shadar Logoth evil. However, even still, the Finns are not actually evil in that sense. People tend to misinterpret Birgitte's quote. While they could be evil, they are not confirmed to be. Birgitte does not say that they are actually evil. She says they are so different to humans that they could be considered evil.

 

I think it is like calling a Lion evil. They kill indiscriminately with no remorse and to humans, that would be considered evil, but it is only natural instinct.

 

I think it is the same with the Finns. They are not evil in the sense of "bad guys", they just so strange that it seems evil.

 

Like a cow would probably see humans as evil. We keep them fenced in and then kill them off.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Happy to help guys.

Also, remember Birgitte says that the Finns are not evil like the Shadow, but so different they might asewll be evil. Of course, she may be wrong, but theres something.

 

I suppose you could say that the Finns are affected by the DO, but they are not creations or spawn of the DO, nor does the DO coome from them. Note that the Finns have souls. They are a 'natural" part of the pattern. Shadowspawn and all things created by the Shadow do not have souls.

 

I'd been thinking of this in terms of the DO being so alien to the Pattern that his nature would be considered evil and that he draws people like that to him, this being the commonality with the Finns. However, with that quote you gave, I'm now inclined to think that perhaps I should be looking at the Finns in terms of Padan Fain, a different kind of evil that exists in tandem with but still counter to the Shadow as depicted in the description of Rand's wound.

 

Yes, they would be more akin to Shadar Logoth evil. However, even still, the Finns are not actually evil in that sense. People tend to misinterpret Birgitte's quote. While they could be evil, they are not confirmed to be. Birgitte does not say that they are actually evil. She says they are so different to humans that they could be considered evil.

 

I think it is like calling a Lion evil. They kill indiscriminately with no remorse and to humans, that would be considered evil, but it is only natural instinct.

 

I think it is the same with the Finns. They are not evil in the sense of "bad guys", they just so strange that it seems evil.

 

Like a cow would probably see humans as evil. We keep them fenced in and then kill them off.

 

This analogy would only make sense to me if these were mindless animals incapable of thought or reason, able only to survive on feeding and instinct. Nothing seems to suggest that. While they may perceive us as being less than animals, we're judging them by -our- standards, not theirs. By our standards, they deceive, cheat, steal, apparently murder and defend the Shadow against intrusion. These things may be perfectly alright in their worldview, but the same holds true for many evil creatures, far less alien.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Happy to help guys.

Also, remember Birgitte says that the Finns are not evil like the Shadow, but so different they might asewll be evil. Of course, she may be wrong, but theres something.

 

I suppose you could say that the Finns are affected by the DO, but they are not creations or spawn of the DO, nor does the DO coome from them. Note that the Finns have souls. They are a 'natural" part of the pattern. Shadowspawn and all things created by the Shadow do not have souls.

 

I'd been thinking of this in terms of the DO being so alien to the Pattern that his nature would be considered evil and that he draws people like that to him, this being the commonality with the Finns. However, with that quote you gave, I'm now inclined to think that perhaps I should be looking at the Finns in terms of Padan Fain, a different kind of evil that exists in tandem with but still counter to the Shadow as depicted in the description of Rand's wound.

 

Yes, they would be more akin to Shadar Logoth evil. However, even still, the Finns are not actually evil in that sense. People tend to misinterpret Birgitte's quote. While they could be evil, they are not confirmed to be. Birgitte does not say that they are actually evil. She says they are so different to humans that they could be considered evil.

 

I think it is like calling a Lion evil. They kill indiscriminately with no remorse and to humans, that would be considered evil, but it is only natural instinct.

 

I think it is the same with the Finns. They are not evil in the sense of "bad guys", they just so strange that it seems evil.

 

Like a cow would probably see humans as evil. We keep them fenced in and then kill them off.

 

This analogy would only make sense to me if these were mindless animals incapable of thought or reason, able only to survive on feeding and instinct. Nothing seems to suggest that. While they may perceive us as being less than animals, we're judging them by -our- standards, not theirs. By our standards, they deceive, cheat, steal, apparently murder and defend the Shadow against intrusion. These things may be perfectly alright in their worldview, but the same holds true for many evil creatures, far less alien.

 

YOu are correct, they are not mindless animals. I guess what I am trying to say is that for me at least, evil is wanton destruction of anything and everything for the pleasure of it. I mean, they could be evil, but for all we know the Finns kill people for food and clothes. The deception, cheating and stealing I think is because of Mat's ignorance. Human's made a treaty with the Finns at some point, all of the rules are followed by the Finns. The treaty is a trade of goods. You get questions or wishes in return for memories. Mat didnt ask about hte treaty, nor the rules. he got exactly what they said they would give him, he just didnt understand . Technically, the Finns did nothing wrong. It only seems that way because Mat doesnt know the rules.

 

Anyway, we will find out in a few days. It has gotten a bit off topic, lets just RAFO eh?

[Bob T Dwarf]

"In another, a woman, face shrouded in shadow, beckoned him toward great danger; Egwene did not know what, only that it was monstrous."

 

I believe the generally accepted idea about this is that it has already been fulfilled. The woman whose face is shrouded in shadow was Selene/Lanfear. She attempted to get Mat to join her in The Dragon Reborn.

[Bob T Dwarf]

As to what Moiraine has been up to in Finnland -

 

She's knitted each of the boys and all of the Wonder Girls a nice pair of warm woolen socks. Antimacassars for the backs of all of the chairs in the Amyrlin's office. And, a nice, thick, and somewhat protective shirt for Lan as an "I'm sorry" present for nearly causing the poor guy to kill himself.

 

Other than that, she's learned a few other domestic skills and has put up several jars of Plum Preserves to be used at various holiday festivities.

 

And, she's almost mastered the trembling twitches from being stuck with Finns for so long. Although, that's a mixed blessing, as those trembling twitches help her sell her whole crazy lady act that is making the Finn's afraid to get anywhere near her.

 

"Hello to your face. Wanna buy a duck? is about the extent of what she's had to say to the Finns, so far.

[Beren]

Perhaps this is what Moiraine is up to in Finnland?

 

 

This is an Egwene dream about Mat.

 

"In another, a woman, face shrouded in shadow, beckoned him toward great danger; Egwene did not know what, only that it was monstrous."

 

Nice, I think thats quite possible. The ToG is argueably the most dangerous task Mat has to date. I wouldnt be suprised if it was this. However, if thats the case, "a woman, face shrouded in shadow" is concerning. Of course, it could jsut mean that Egwene cannot see the face, but "shadow" seems to imply that the woman is a Darkfriend or worse. I hope Moiraine isnt a DF, or tainted in some way.

 

I don't think she is a DF. I do think that she may be bait in a trap that even she does not know about. The face shrouded in shadow might have just been because Mat's future at that point was uncertain as to whether he would attempt to free her or not.

[Callahan]

Likely the Finns have pretty good knowledge of the last third age.

 

 

Hmm..Something just occured to me.How long has the Tower of Ghenji existed ? I had the Impression that it was not there in the AOL as Matt has no memories of the previous age.

[Crossroad]

How long has Moiraine been in the land of the fins, I would think only moments from the time Matt seen her and Lanfear fall throw the gateway. Time is different there so I believe its only moments. Why has Lanfear been reborn I believe the Fins killed her because she attacked them when she arrive.

[Sid]

Actually, if we can extrapolate from Mat's timing of events in TSR, he experiences an indeterminable amount of time in the Doorway in Rhuidean, but he didn't eat or sleep or get hungry. I guess we can assume that he was in there for a few hours or so, while Rand spent 6 days visiting his ancestors in the ter'angreal. It would be reasonable to assume that time runs at an average of about 1/50th the time as it does in the normal world. If so, she's been in there for what seems to her to be around 5 days. Of course, if visiting this world is like T'A'R in terms of comparative timing, then we have no way to figure it.

 

Excuse me if I go off on a tangent, but something occurred to me...

Balthamel and Aginor became Osan'gar and Aran'gar about 400 days after they were killed.

Ishamael first appeared as Moridin about 230 days after he was killed.

The time between when we see Lanfear go into the Doorway and our first introduction to Cyndane is about 120 days. (she's in Finnland at most 2.5 days if the timing stays about the same)

 

Does this mean that the DO is streamlining this soul transmigration process, or getting better at it, or just putting more effort into it? Perhaps he can do this whenever he wants and only brought out the Gar's when Rahvin and Be'lal were balefired and Moghedien went missing. Moridin was brought back immediately but kept under wraps so the other Forsaken would vie for Nae'blis a bit more? Sorry to go off track but my mind's in such a jumble in my need for a ToM fix

[FarShainMael]

Rand's own time sense in the columns was skewed as well; he didn't eat, sleep, or perform any other biofunctions either. I'm not sure whether they had their independent internal clocks or whether it was Rhuidean's mist barrier itself slowing time for them.

[Kestrel]

Rand's own time sense in the columns was skewed as well; he didn't eat, sleep, or perform any other biofunctions either. I'm not sure whether they had their independent internal clocks or whether it was Rhuidean's mist barrier itself slowing time for them.

Rand wasn't trapped there indefinitely.

 

Sure hope Finnland has a decent buffet, rest rooms, laundromat, showerhouse and hotel. Else Moraine is going to be an unrecognisably miserable, tattered creature with a first-class bellyache.

 

Hmmm. Maybe that's why the Finns are so unpleasant. Poor Moraine.....

[FarShainMael]

Sure hope Finnland has a decent buffet, rest rooms, laundromat, showerhouse and hotel.

If they don't have a sauna I'll be most disappointed..

[Guest]

i think one of the key factors is mat having to weigh "two aes sedai versus each other" (slap me if i misquoted) this could mean two individual aes sedai, and also two different factions of aes sedai (or in other words, female channelers) maybe he has to sacrifice a certain channeler for moiraines life, or a whole faction altogether. we'll know on the 2nd of nov :P