Hopper Couldn't see Brigitte??

[nophone]

Perrin spoke to the hero of the horn in the wolf dream. He assumed Hopper could see her because he acted so casually. This brought comfort to Perrin. It was as if Hopper was interacting to an old friend... He was very domesticated around her. Then, when she left. Perrin speaks with Hopper and hopper suggests that he was acting strangely and standing there talking to empty air. I think this was in book 4 or 5. I'm on my 3rd read through of the novels right now.

[dovien]

Hopper couldn't see her, no.

[Byzantine279]

Begs the question of how he couldn't. We know she doesn't only appear for people who she wants to see her (Egwene saw her) so that is out.

 

Perhaps wolves and heros exist "apart" in TAR, since both go there when they die.

[nophone]

Begs the question of how he couldn't. We know she doesn't only appear for people who she wants to see her (Egwene saw her) so that is out.

 

Perhaps wolves and heros exist "apart" in TAR, since both go there when they die.

 

I was thinking about this with respect to the unseen eyes. I remember someone recently mentioning that maybe it was the hero's of the horn, and i remember thinking that the first time i read through the books. I don't think so anymore because the hero's don't seem to give the feeling of discomfort though, so perhaps this is significant in that it helps rule out hero's as the unseen eyes? They seem to be able to hide just out the corner of your eyes when thye want to. Gidal was appearing to B during the chat to be like STFU and he kept thinking he saw something.

[trashbird1240]

Perrin spoke to the hero of the horn in the wolf dream. He assumed Hopper could see her because he acted so casually. This brought comfort to Perrin. It was as if Hopper was interacting to an old friend... He was very domesticated around her. Then, when she left. Perrin speaks with Hopper and hopper suggests that he was acting strangely and standing there talking to empty air. I think this was in book 4 or 5. I'm on my 3rd read through of the novels right now.

 

This was in The Shadow Rising, "To The Tower of Ghenjei." I took Hopper's confusion to mean that he couldn't see Birgitte. I think Perrin is in some ay able to enter the Wolf Dream and TAR, and they are connected but somehow separate. Perrin has acquired an ability somewhat similar to Isam, such that he really has control over which possible worlds he touches in the dream. Hopper is aware of Isam ("Slayer"), so I think Perrin's ability to touch various dreamworlds is similar to that of Isam.

[nophone]

Perrin spoke to the hero of the horn in the wolf dream. He assumed Hopper could see her because he acted so casually. This brought comfort to Perrin. It was as if Hopper was interacting to an old friend... He was very domesticated around her. Then, when she left. Perrin speaks with Hopper and hopper suggests that he was acting strangely and standing there talking to empty air. I think this was in book 4 or 5. I'm on my 3rd read through of the novels right now.

 

This was in The Shadow Rising, "To The Tower of Ghenjei." I took Hopper's confusion to mean that he couldn't see Birgitte. I think Perrin is in some ay able to enter the Wolf Dream and TAR, and they are connected but somehow separate. Perrin has acquired an ability somewhat similar to Isam, such that he really has control over which possible worlds he touches in the dream. Hopper is aware of Isam ("Slayer"), so I think Perrin's ability to touch various dreamworlds is similar to that of Isam.

 

Hmm... It's always implied that TAR and the wolf dream is the same... But, I see your point... there are so many times that perrin says something to the effect of "is this wolf dream Egween's TAR?" Seeing as how he ran into Egween and even Rand in the wolf dream, that this is the case.

 

The reasons I think that RJ would bring that up at all. 1: He's pretty good about using a brief passage to remind the reader about material that was introduced in previous novels without retelling the whole tale, so he may just be reminding us that wolf dreams and TAR are the same, so he would be emphasizing the point because they are in fact not different. 2: He would similarly be emphasizing to stress that although they may overlap, they are not entirely the same for the wolves, and that for Perrin, there is perhaps some "wolfness" that he's got.

 

I just have a hard time thinking of these worlds as different... I feel like Egween should be able to do anything that Perrin can do in the dream. How could it possibly be different for the Wolf and in the dream? The only thing i can think of is they manner in which they communicate would effect the way they interact with TAR, or their "fluency" with it.

[Val Mickey]

Just throwing this out there - What if the Heroes can control who see them?

 

Birgitte certainly has (what I consider) a superior skill than Egwene in TAR - that of tracking a person in TAR, whoever they might be. Gaidal's shadow falls in front of Perrin, but turn around and he's gone. So if the Heroes could decide who could see them, and even how much of them - Why, then Birgitte could easily decide that the wolves should not see her (it may even be protocol) and thus Hopper couldn't.

[nophone]

Just throwing this out there - What if the Heroes can control who see them?

 

I think this is entirely likely, however the point I wanted to make, is that if they're choosing to be 'unseen' and then 'watch' it doesn't seem that their 'watching' seems to give the wolves any sort of discomfort. Although it has been mentioned that the unseen watchers have not been observed by men in TaR or the wolf dream or TaR in the flesh, or atleast if it has been observed by them, it was just implied and RJ did not feel it was worth mentioning, which is unlike his style.

[A2597]

I'd venture to say that it isn't the heroes that are different, but the wolfs. They are on a slightly skewed level of TaR, unable to see or communicate with the humans in TaR. Perrin being an exception, as he is well...wolfbrother.

[firstfishman]

Maybe the wolves can only be seen by wolf people in TAR, and are the "Unseen Eyes"... Perrin never talks about being watched while in the dream.

 

Maybe only people people bound to the wheel can see the Heroes while in TAR, hence Hopper not seeing Birgitte.

 

(Egwene, Nynaeve, Rand, Forsaken, etc are bound to the wheel in my opinion. If not before, they are now...)

[nophone]

I'd venture to say that it isn't the heroes that are different, but the wolfs. They are on a slightly skewed level of TaR, unable to see or communicate with the humans in TaR. Perrin being an exception, as he is well...wolfbrother.

 

Sisters have been known to encounter wolves in the TaR

[haloun]

this brings up what hopper always tells perrin when he is there. you are here too strong. you are in danger. i have always wondered what that was about, but cannot find any answer.

[didymos]

this brings up what hopper always tells perrin when he is there. you are here too strong. you are in danger. i have always wondered what that was about, but cannot find any answer.

 

Uh, Hopper tells him straight-out in TDR (pg 536, US Hardback):

 

You are here too strongly! Every sending carried shock. You will die, Young Bull!

 

So dying is what that's about.

[Majsju]

The really odd thing to me is Hoppers casual behaviour. If someone started to have a conversation with himself in the way Perrin should have seem to Hopper, I would be anything but casual, since clearly you have someone in front of you who is completely bonkers.

 

So, perhaps Hopper did see Birgitte, but he simply refused to acknowledge it, for some reason (If wolves and heroes hang out in T'a'r, they might very well have agreed on a few things).

 

Not something I really believe, but it is a possibility.

[didymos]

The really odd thing to me is Hoppers casual behaviour.

 

He's a wolf. Why would he think that was particularly odd human behavior worthy of comment? He thinks just about everything humans do is odd and makes no sense. Perrin wasn't communicating with him or doing anything he was interested in, so he took the opportunity to lay down and chill. I mean, it's not like wolves have a body of knowledge about human mental illness and the symptoms thereof. It's was just more weird "two-legs" crap.

[username13]

This is just my opinion but I think it's more that the Heroes make a concious decision on NOT being visible to others in T'A'R, in line with their Precripts or whatever it was Birgette mentioned early on. Their natural phase, if you could call it that, would be to be just as visible as any other individual. Birgette let that slip when chatting to Elayne (/) and Egwene saw her, and when chatting to Perrin made a concious choice that only Perrin could see her since she could see Hopper. She couldn't see Egwene, so as far as she knew only Elayne was in the room with her, she was so focussed on her conversation with Elayne that her spidersense for people knowingly in T'A'R had taken a back seat for a second, when she realised she vanished.

 

I believe the Wolf Dream and T'A'R are the same thing. Isam, Aes Sedai and Ishy have all seen and interacted with them over the time that we've seen, and probably the Aiel too - and none of them have an ounce of wolfiness in them

[AuldGoldBeard]

Pretty sure that if Heroes could control who saw them in TAR, Birgitte wouldn't have been too worried about Moghedien.

[yoniy0]

All due respect for Hopper, he's no Moghedien.

[Jon Paul]

I always thought the Wolf Dream are T'A'R were one and the same. Why are people talking as if they are distinct?

[didymos]

Why are people talking as if they are distinct?

 

Because, for some reason, people like to come up with theories that make things even more complicated than they already are.