Worry

[martianblues]

Wow some you are kinda harsh sometimes. Think about it this way: if you had written a novel that turned out even half as well as any of these books you would be thrilled with yourself probably. Light, a quarter as well! Have any of you ever tried to write even one novel, let alone 12? It's flaming hard!

 

 

Ya. So? It's the finished product we're discussing, not the amount of effort that was put into that product. Just because he worked as hard on the ones which didn't turn out as well as the rest doesn't make them any less inferior.

 

Also, if I expected people to pay good money for something I worked on and the quality wasn't what they expected it to be, I'd expect to get slagged over that as well - and rightly so.

 

I simply didn't find books 7-10 to be up to par with the rest of the series. I don't see a point in avoiding saying that.

 

and that's a valid opinion, and I have no problem with that. I can even understand to a degree the opinion of 7-10 not being quite as good as the rest (but still better than a lot of stuff I've read from other authors), even tho I think there are too many interesting plot developments and awesome scenes that happen in them to fully agree. I'm just saying that when one is critiquing something, one ought to consider the POV of "how would I feel to have created something like this?" and your overall opinion might alter a bit, even if there are some nit-picky things. I think about this as a musician. For a long time I would talk about stuff on the radio in a really critical way, and say "so-and-so sucks" etc., but then after I thought about it, I would have happy to have written any of those songs and gotten on the radio. If I listen to stuff with that in mind, I'm not so critical anymore.

 

as to the topic of "worry", I was a little worried at first after hearing about a new author finishing, but after TGS not so much. There are a couple minor things like "bloody ashes", but overall it was still great. I think the rest will be awesome. Especially knowing that RJ had thorough notes and recordings telling what was supposed to happen, and that the ending of AMoL had been written. And really I'm just glad to have an ending, and not have it unfinished.

[Baletickle_to_da_face!]

Wow some you are kinda harsh sometimes. Think about it this way: if you had written a novel that turned out even half as well as any of these books you would be thrilled with yourself probably. Light, a quarter as well! Have any of you ever tried to write even one novel, let alone 12? It's flaming hard!

 

If you think this thread is "harsh", then I am guessing you weren't 'round here inbetween CoT and KoD's release

 

And your point is somewhat funny in that the main issue with the WoT is that it's simply TOO long. Ironically enough the series might have been better off if Jordan had done a little LESS work on it.

 

As I said, I am in the camp that beleives 7-10 are a lot more enjoyable now that we aren't waiting years inbetween releases. I don't think they are bad books(though I still think 8 comes close). And I've always thought a little overgenerlization was going on when lumping all 4 together since 7 and 9 were always quite good no matter how you look at them. They just seemed to get lumped in with 8 and 10 because they were a little slower paced then the first six, and it's easy to overgeneralize(just imho).

 

That all said, it seems that if you look at the background, it's pretty clear that Jordan basically made a choice to extend the series rather then end it. I read a quote from Jordan a little before the release of LoC(I beleive) where he said he was 90% sure that he could finish the series in 7 books, and 95% in 8. Boy, what happened to that?!

 

When you look at the storyline's, I think it's quite obvious that Jordan made a decision to extend the series beyond what he had originally planned. I don't think it's a bad thing in the big scheme of things. As I said, the books are far more enjoyable in hindsight. But I think it's undeniable that Elayne's story was expanded far beyond what it could/should have been. Most of Egwene's Amyrlin storyline is essential, but it's actual onscreen time could have been scaled back quite a bit. There was additionals to the storyline like the too young sitters(if I remember right) and the Black Ajah Hunters(what a bloody waste of time that looks like in hindsight after Verin) that really didn't need to be in there at all and had a pretty blah climax.

 

And the Shaido/Perrin/Faile storyline didn't need to exist at all, really. In fact, probably the biggest remaining gripe I have with those books is how Perrin ran around doing nothing for 3 or 4 books. And the reboot of Perrin dealing with his inner-wolf in TGS and ToM just goes to show how out of place that whole thing was. While some might blame it on Sanderson's writing, I do not see how Jordan could have done much better. From what we've seen of TGS and ToM, Perrin's story really does look something like, "Ok, that stuff that just happened for 3 or 4 books doesn't matter anymore....back to dealing with Perrin's duality of character!".

 

Edit: By the way, love the sig al'Corey. Hadn't heard that one of Sagan's before

[Tenesmus]

Part of the problem with the later books was the wait. The first six all were released in less than five years (Jan 1990-October 1994) Starting with book 7 the wait grew longer for each installment and the main plot got stalled. Ironically, I enjoyed the minor character development of the later books, but the main plot lines got bogged down in verbosity. I believe that the main character story arcs in ACOS/TPOD/WH/COT could have been presented in two larger volumes. If you recall, TSR/TFOH/LOC were all very dense and close to 1000 pages each. The page count for 7-10 went down, but yet felt needlessly inflated. Rand's arc in ACOS was only a week in length, IIRC. The Elayne/Mat/Egwene/Perrin acs were extremely verbose.

 

Consider this; The TSR/TFOH/LOC sequence is approximately 1,000,000 words in length and the ACOS/TPOD/WH/COT sequence is approximately 1,140,000 words in length. Given that; books 7-10 could have easily been edited down to three books, but when you consider that in most folks opinion those four were needlessly inflated for individual book word count to begin with, they could have done that four book sequence in two books. Its obvious to the most casual reader that RJ and Harriet dropped the ball after books 4-6.

 

I am NOT saying the books were bad. I AM saying that the TSR/TFOH/LOC sequence is a literary masterpiece. Those three books are some of the greatest works of fiction ever written, bar none. Books 7-10 are merely above average to excellent.

[martianblues]

yeah the wait between did suck, i was around for that. i remember being a little pissed when New Spring came out instead of the next book, but I'm glad to have that bit of the story and I liked the book. but the re-read after they are all out definitely makes that slow paced section of the books better.

 

i will agree that some of the stuff in there could have been condensed a little. i actually worry a little about ToM being TOO condensed compared to some of the previous books. There is a LOT of stuff going on now in the story.

 

thanks for appreciating the Sagan quote, Baletickle. Love him.

[Kestrel]

Wow some you are kinda harsh sometimes. Think about it this way: if you had written a novel that turned out even half as well as any of these books you would be thrilled with yourself probably. Light, a quarter as well! Have any of you ever tried to write even one novel, let alone 12? It's flaming hard!

I too thought books 7-10 dragged out too much, as well as taking too long between releases, and got bogged down with open-ended extraneous plot lines which would all need to be resolved. And some major plot lines from the earlier books were left hanging. (Surely Rand isn't the only one who can use the portal stones?? Didn't the Seanchan critters come from a portal stone world? How come we haven't seen any more of Luc/Slayer, or the draghkar, or the grolm?)

 

That being said, when I take into consideration the fact that RJ was suffering from a fatal disease and the aggressive treatments, I commend RJ for doing a fantastic job up through the end. Good heavens, I'm healthy and my own mind fuzzes out just because it's after 10:00 pm. I can't imagine writing anything reasonably coherent when I'm on NyQuil, and here's RJ keeping the entire series glued together despite the complete pharmicopia he's consuming/injecting. On top of that he makes extensive notes which allows someone else to step in and (using a bare minimum of independent input) complete the story he was physically incapable of doing himself.

 

I see RJs expansion ond continuation of the WoT series as symbolic, in a way, of his refusal to give up on his own life. It's as if he was determined to look his fatal disease in the eye, spit on it, and go on living by having something to live for -- his still-unfinished story. He knew he didn't have the energy to start another major series, so he found a reason to keep living by refusing to let this one go. Yes, he could have concluded it by book 9, but then he would have been left to stare at the walls while his disease consumed him, and just write short books like New Spring to fill in gaps.

 

RIP, RJ. Thank's for making sure we were cared for even after you were gone.

[TheBeerPatriot]

Part of the problem with the later books was the wait. The first six all were released in less than five years (Jan 1990-October 1994) Starting with book 7 the wait grew longer for each installment and the main plot got stalled. Ironically, I enjoyed the minor character development of the later books, but the main plot lines got bogged down in verbosity. I believe that the main character story arcs in ACOS/TPOD/WH/COT could have been presented in two larger volumes. If you recall, TSR/TFOH/LOC were all very dense and close to 1000 pages each. The page count for 7-10 went down, but yet felt needlessly inflated. Rand's arc in ACOS was only a week in length, IIRC. The Elayne/Mat/Egwene/Perrin acs were extremely verbose.

 

Consider this; The TSR/TFOH/LOC sequence is approximately 1,000,000 words in length and the ACOS/TPOD/WH/COT sequence is approximately 1,140,000 words in length. Given that; books 7-10 could have easily been edited down to three books, but when you consider that in most folks opinion those four were needlessly inflated for individual book word count to begin with, they could have done that four book sequence in two books. Its obvious to the most casual reader that RJ and Harriet dropped the ball after books 4-6.

 

I am NOT saying the books were bad. I AM saying that the TSR/TFOH/LOC sequence is a literary masterpiece. Those three books are some of the greatest works of fiction ever written, bar none. Books 7-10 are merely above average to excellent.

Although ACOS drags early on for the first 200 pages before it gets going, I think it stands up well as its own book, given all the things that happen in there. I think TPOD/WH could have been merged, and COT/KOD definitely could have been merged. As others have mentioned on here, I too think some of the slower books stand up a little better now upon re-read. I think TPOD is important because Rand experiences some serious setbacks in the book, but some of it certainly could have been merged into setting up WH-especially some of Rand's earlier scenes where he's hiding in Far Madding. I'm re-reading COT right now, so we'll see if that one holds up better now upon re-read ;)

 

Tenemus, I definitely agree with you that the Elayne/Egwene/Perrin (and yes, some of Mat's chapters) were drawn out unnecessarily in these 4 books. Especially Perrin's rescue of Faile-gaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh

[The Fisher King]

''When its all said and done, WOT will be able to be looked back upon, and, with a credible supporting argument, the statement will be able to be made that approximately 3,000 pages could have been deleted from the series without the quality or clarity of the series as a whole suffering even one bit.''

 

I believe that. I also do not know if that is the greatest criticism or the greatest compliment to a work of writing in the history of literature.

 

 

 

Fish

[Lisa Campbell]

3000 pages wouldn't make a difference. Are you kidding?

 

I know a lot of people here found the "slow" books tiresome and I suppose I can understand why but I just didn't have that reaction. I thought RJ developed a lot of the plot lines we are looking forward to in those books, and also that is where I really "fell in love" with Mat. He was soooo funny throughout them. Even Nynaeve had funny scenes in them and I started liking her more too. She's one of my fave characters now. I just love that she has to work so hard to control her temper when all she wants to do is box someone's ears. Anyone who has kids could relate to that.

 

I agree that the whole waiting in between books was excruciating but it also made it all the sweeter when they did come out. It was because they didn't really seem to be going anywhere while giving lots of clues and foreshadowing that made me lurk around sites like this to see what theories were bouncing around.

[Shard]

I agree I think it WAS the waiting that really hurt those books. I remember not caring at all about Pevera and her BA hunt the first read thru and only when I re-read the series without those pesky 2-3 year waits I found I actually enjoyed the PoD book more. I remember likeing WH because of the Cleansing and I didn't know anyone was upset with KoD. CoT though is still slow even on re-read. I also never had problems with CoS because I didn't have to wait for it, that books release was when I started WoT.

[Walker]

Second that.

 

PoD and CoT weren't so bad after I read WH and KoD. It was waiting years for cliff hangers to be resolved that got me. Imagine if LoC was the last book in print when you started and the rescue wans't in that book.

 

I was on the rec.arts.written news group when LoC came out. A large number of fans (many of them FAQ contributors) threatened to quit the series.

 

I am amazed at how 7 has been retconned as a bad book. At release, CoS was seen as making up for the "mess" that was LoC.

[Sid]

I was on the rec.arts.written news group when LoC came out. A large number of fans (many of them FAQ contributors) threatened to quit the series.

 

I am amazed at how 7 has been retconned as a bad book. At release, CoS was seen as making up for the "mess" that was LoC.

I came into the series when PoD came out, but I can kind of see how people might have thought things were spinning out of control with LoC. I mean, after TSR you're thinking 'holy crap this thing just blew wide open'. But then after LoC you realize 'holy crap the divergence that was TSR was nothing compared to this'. The problem is that nearly every single one of those minor subplots matters later. Every book from then on was kind like RJ saying 'whoooooa, I have to figure out how I'm actually going to do this' and things kind of stalled until KoD. Then Sanderson put his foot on the gas like the series has never seen since the early books with TGS. I'm not worried, even though ToM is supposedly a lot more like LoC was itself, it'll actually be catching up and tying up rather than splitting and introducing new. And then AMoL will be the crazy wonderful ending. I'm not worried.

[ajfurst]

Second that.

 

PoD and CoT weren't so bad after I read WH and KoD. It was waiting years for cliff hangers to be resolved that got me. Imagine if LoC was the last book in print when you started and the rescue wans't in that book.

 

I was on the rec.arts.written news group when LoC came out. A large number of fans (many of them FAQ contributors) threatened to quit the series.

 

I am amazed at how 7 has been retconned as a bad book. At release, CoS was seen as making up for the "mess" that was LoC.

I was on rec.arts.sf.written in the pre rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan days (you know you've been analysing the series a long time when you remember the joy of getting a dedicated RJ newsgroup!) and don't remember ACOS as making up for LOC.

 

I remember LOC had the prologue released online early (the first online and for free, back in the pre ebook money days - ah, the good 'old' days) and some fans were pissed about the resurrected forsaken. By the time the book came out though most had Dumai's Wells as one of their favourite parts of the series to that point and the book got a solid pass - if not the standard of the first 3 or the pinnacle that was and still is TSR.

 

I remember it as ACOS got disparaged as the prologue going back over the same ground as the end of LOC, the first few chapters them hanging around watching crows feast and Travelling to Cairhein, then nothing much happening until a 'bolted on' few chapters of Rand killing Sammael at the end. And that it was clearly the most disliked of the series to that point.

[Byzantine279]

I only got into the series this summer. Because of that I've never had to play the waiting game like many of you have. And from the way you talk about the slow books it truly seems to be the wait that was what brought them down. They read perfectly (well, almost even I admit CoT was obnoxious) without a pause between them.

 

Once aMoL is out anyone who starts the series fresh will be holding an amazing gem, because although some parts were very slow to build the series wouldn't be complete without them. Really, it all comes down to how many of the storylines close in the final two books that will decide just how good the series was as a whole. So, we shall wait and we shall see what it all ends up resulting as. Many of you have been reading this series longer than I have been alive, I have no idea what waiting that long must have been like, but I am certain it soured your taste of RJ's slow buildup.