Thing In The Blight PoV

[Duskfire]

Sorry for the double post, but my housemate bought up an interesting point: he is getting a serious vibe of Dracula and/or from Fain now. He can now create "undead", and has a fascination with blood and red and black. Dracula in some stories could turn into a mist, Fain now has a mist that he controls. Mashadar drains peoples souls, which is similar to Draculas feeding. Dracula is able to confer his vampiric ability onto others, as Fain can do with his corruption. Both are sadistic individuals who can change from a smooth talker to a fit of rage in an instant, and both have varying accents which change constantly. Nosferatu and vampires in European folklore were able to create ghosts or spirits to distract enemies; Fain probably did something similar in WH. Also, vampires can sense other vampires; Fain can sense other darkfriends.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Yeah but he's just not as dapper as auld Dracula.

[Braus]

Im curious about one thing when it comes to him traveling to SG. What happens when he reaches it, he is already in the blight. Will he just hide? or will he run rampart on the lands around SG, taking over any trolloc appearing etc. Will Rand and co eventually come to SG to seal the dark one and see that there is no alive shadowspawn to be found?:p

[JakeBarnes]

Luckers,

 

I want to know what you think of this Fain/Mordeth dual-personality shifting that we have which is so similar to the Isam/Slayer/Luc scenario. Upon reading it, I became convinced that your theory about the unseen eyes is SPOT ON. We now have two cases of merged beings, which shift from one to the other. The only connection between these merged beings is the unseen eyes.

 

Isam/Luc has powers over the dream world, where there are unseen eyes. Fain/Mordeth seems to have inherited the powers of the Shadar Logoth evil, where there are also unseen eyes.

 

To take this one step further, with the revelation of the new TP weave that allows someone to see through the eyes of a bird (possibly any animal), I think that it would make sense that when people die in TAR the DO takes over their eyes. This could also apply to any dead people, I mean, he is the Lord of the Grave. I'm not sure how it would fit with the Shadar Logoth scenario, unless this secret that Mordeth uncovered allowed him to possess a power very similar to the Dark One's. We know that their evils are opposite, and can kill eachother.

 

I don't want to take the time to write a theory about it, but it's something to think about.

[Azral]

For comparison, I'd say that he's shown a greater deadliness than Shaidar Haran. Perhaps Fain vs. Shaidar Haran? They seem like natural enemies to one another.

 

In terms of Fain becoming the new Dark One? Come on. Seriously? That's a pretty huge leap, even by dragonmount standards :)

 

The problem with the SH fight is that in theory SH could just balefire him, or hold him in air. And being an extension of the Dark One, I wouldnt be surprised if he was immune to Mashadar. However Fain could also have funky abilities when it comes to channelers, so who knows with him.

 

It depends on how the interaction between Mashadar and the True Power plays out, I expect. Brandon has been pretty clear in suggesting that the True Power is the Dark One's essence (we even get it word for word in Graendal's POV). If Mashadar can destroy the True Power then I think Fain has a chance one on one vs Shaidar Haran.

 

Of course, Brandon also states that the Taint is not the True Power (Mashadar could destroy and be destroyed by the Taint). If this holds then there is more to the Dark One's repertoire than just the True Power.

 

Also we saw Mashadar flee from a True Power BaleFire back in Shadar Logoth.

 

The gist of it is, I think Fain/Mashadar can affect manifestations of the Shadow in the Pattern (such as shadowspawn and even the Taint) but not the essence of the Dark One. That is, until Brandon writes otherwise.

 

First post. Be gentle :)

[TreeJoe]

Regarding Fain's powers - thinking through this a bit more. I don't think he can be killed any longer by a fireball or simple stuff. Let me elaborate:

 

1. We know that Mashadar was supposedly vast and, according to Moiraine, couldn't be wiped out by the whole White Tower. Think about that for a second...

 

2. We know Fain can apparently wield Mashadar like qualities, and I'd put a $5 bill down on him being melded with Mashadar now...

 

3. Mordeth lived for over 2000 years in Shadar Logoth, enough so that Aes Sedai encountered him, knew that he would steal souls if he ever took someone to the city walls...further, those Aes Sedai didn't kill him or otherwise control him.

 

4. Machin Shin - we don't know much about this creature, except it's vast, could be held back by blasts of fire and "corruscating fountains of the power" (Rand, tGH), but didn't actually die or be hurt by those things. Aes Sedai couldn't kill it off. Lived for thousands of years.

 

So, to recap, as far as we know Fain has encountered and melded with 2, and possibly 3, "parasites" that have existed in Randland for thousands of years. He's gained and even expanded upon their powers, and those parasites were not able to be killed off by even powerful channelers. Only hurt or pushed away.

 

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I realize that Fain may not be stoppable by humans short of Balefire.

[bjsm]

 

4. Machin Shin - we don't know much about this creature, except it's vast, could be held back by blasts of fire and "corruscating fountains of the power" (Rand, tGH), but didn't actually die or be hurt by those things. Aes Sedai couldn't kill it off. Lived for thousands of years.

 

Machin Shin is actually no more than a few hundred years old. The Ways didn't start to decay until around the War of the Hundred Years, and people didn't start disappearing or going insane until about 500 years ago. The Ways were still used regularly until about 300 years ago, when they were finally abandoned.

[TreeJoe]

 

4. Machin Shin - we don't know much about this creature, except it's vast, could be held back by blasts of fire and "corruscating fountains of the power" (Rand, tGH), but didn't actually die or be hurt by those things. Aes Sedai couldn't kill it off. Lived for thousands of years.

 

Machin Shin is actually no more than a few hundred years old. The Ways didn't start to decay until around the War of the Hundred Years, and people didn't start disappearing or going insane until about 500 years ago. The Ways were still used regularly until about 300 years ago, when they were finally abandoned.

 

 

Ahh, I thought it was around since the war of hundred years. So "1000" would've been accurate.

 

Also, I read the wiki which says that Machin Shin fled Fain and Fain imprinted himself on Machin Shin, which made it hunt Rand. I hadn't read that before, so perhaps Machin Shin is not a part of Fain at all.

 

Nonetheless, we know that Fain had some serious darkfriend powers before we merged with Mordeth and Mashadar, and those are definitely pretty bad-ass...

 

Joe

[Duskfire]

1. We know that Mashadar was supposedly vast and, according to Moiraine, couldn't be wiped out by the whole White Tower. Think about that for a second...

 

Because Mashadar was in essence the entire city. Which is why the entire city needed to be destroyed in order for Mashadar to die; the evil of Shadar Logoth was constantly feeding it and fueling it. In this new case, mashadar is confined to Fain, who's evil constantly feeds and fuels it. So in theory, once Fain dies and the last trace of Mordeth, Mashadar would to. And due to Fain not being city size, theres no reason to think Mashadar is also vast.

[Random Man]

1. We know that Mashadar was supposedly vast and, according to Moiraine, couldn't be wiped out by the whole White Tower. Think about that for a second...

 

Because Mashadar was in essence the entire city. Which is why the entire city needed to be destroyed in order for Mashadar to die; the evil of Shadar Logoth was constantly feeding it and fueling it. In this new case, mashadar is confined to Fain, who's evil constantly feeds and fuels it. So in theory, once Fain dies and the last trace of Mordeth, Mashadar would to. And due to Fain not being city size, theres no reason to think Mashadar is also vast.

The size of the vessel doesn't really have any significance to the vastness of the power. We don't really know where it comes from to begin with. Fain could now be a new conduit for Mashadar when before the city itself was the conduit. I would agree that it appears Mashadar is now fully contained within Fain, or only works at Fain's direction, and if he dies, then Mashadar dies as well, or is unable to touch the Pattern. But that doesn't mean that it's become weaker or more limited.

[CTKShadow]

Did anyone else find it odd that Fain "touched" the Fade with his Mashadar-like mist, killing it, and then considered that wearing gloves would prevent them from dying?

 

Is this a logical flaw caused by insanity, or is he right?

[Random Man]

Did anyone else find it odd that Fain "touched" the Fade with his Mashadar-like mist, killing it, and then considered that wearing gloves would prevent them from dying?

 

Is this a logical flaw caused by insanity, or is he right?

Possibly now his physical touch is the same, at least to Fades, as his tendrils of mist. It'd make plenty sense then. Fain himself is probably deadly at this point just to be around -- remember how in EoTW Moiraine said that spending time with Mat once he'd gone too far would be enough to kill. Or he was just thinking of how nice it would be to torture a Fade again and the rest was just insanity. It certainly doesn't logically follow that wearing gloves would alter the effects of Mashadar.

[Baletickle_to_da_face!]

I just want people to know that I thought of that Fain is looking for Moridin but thinks he's Rand theory on my own too. I want some credit if you read it first!

 

Also a few things that stood out to me/theories/etc:

 

1. Fain will soon have a new name. Does anybody else think it will be Shai'tan?

2. For some reason I'm having a hard time picturing a worm that is purple as being scary/dangerous

3. Mashadar FTW!

4. As to Fain bleeding, I got the impression he was bleeding because he liked it, but whoever mentioned that he was probably doing it to attract Shadowspawn; well that makes way more sense

5. Interesting comparison that somebody made about Fain becoming Machin Shin. Very interesting; though I think he's actually becoming the new DO. If not, he's too close to Gholum for my tastes. I mean, if all he will be used for will be to just kill the DO... that would feel too much like LotR to me; though I do think that they could both potentially destroy each other, just as Mashadar killed the taint on saidin

 

That is all (what's with me making all these lists lately?)

 

I had never really considered it before, but the idea that Fain may be the DO is interesting. Though I don't think Fain is going to be the Dark One, so much as perhaps the DO is an amaglamation of past Fain's or Fain-like characters(depending on just how exactly these actions of the Wheel repeat themselves). When all is said and done, this Fain just being another incarnation added to the seething mix trapped inside the DO's prison.

 

I find this compelling because Fain has become a potent mix of human evil, madness, greed, lust for power etc. It would make sense if the Dark One is actually the personification of the negative aspects of humankind locked up by the Creator.

 

Also, if we accept the probable result of this being a pre-destination paradox, then it goes a long way towards explaining the entire dynamic of the Dragon Reborn. And why the Dark One is so obsessed with him.

 

Perhaps the True Power is a distilled and potent form of the mist that Fain is now displaying. Or perhaps the subtle power, slight as it is, that the DO has over the entire planet is a weakened version of that mist. Maybe both.

 

There are also some interesting connections between Shadar Haran and Fain being tied to the DO himself. And I have a feeling the bit about Fade's dying just from the touch of Fain is signifigant. I am not sure how those would fit in.

 

There are some problems with this idea, of course. Like for instance why the Dark One would want to turn Rand rather then killing him(as Fain is very focused on doing) or why there has been so much emphasis put on the evil of the DO and Shadar Logoth being opposing forces(though this could be that Fain's evil is esentially the same, but a step off of the evil it came from and will eventually rejoin. Sort of, out of tune with that evil, if you get what I mean)

[sdelu]

I had a very long, elaborate post to add to the conversation... and my cat steps on my keyboard and erases it. Are you #&%*@!# kidding me?

 

Suffice it to say that I don't feel Fain is really as legitimate a threat to the DO as we seem to expect him to be.

 

Consider some of the following (in brief now, and not so eloquent, thanks to the cat)...

 

Musing 1:

We know that the powers of Mashadar and the DO are opposed to one another (the cleansing, Rand's wounds), but we seem to be confusing the fact that they are "opposed" with the fact that they are "of equal strength." We have, on the one hand, the Taint, which is arguably but a sliver of the DO's full power (this was a mere counterattack, after all, and one designed to simply sow chaos, not "win" the Ages-long war. The DO has no need to strike a decisive blow, as he believes he will inevitably win in the end, and he has already weathered thousands upon thousands of turnings of the wheel). The Taint is akin to a poison, and a very potent one at that, and combined with other facts it seems that we can safely say it was only a small measure of the DO's power.

 

On the other hand we have Mashadar. Mashadar, the culmination of an entire city's worth of hate/malice, plus some armies of Trollocs. I don't believe that Fain took much of Mashadar with him, but more of a seed (ie, Mordeth, who was certainly powerful, but was NOT the same as Mashadar)--we can see early on that he did not possess the full powers of Mashadar and that they have grown over the series. Thus it stands to reason that Mashadar at the time of the cleansing was at full (or nearly full) power. And all this power could do was cancel out a tiny portion of the DO's own power. None of Mashadar existed afterward, so it was clearly not stronger than the Taint, otherwise there would be some remnant of it left alive. Looking at the outcome makes it seem more likely that the small amount of the DO's power destroyed Mashadar, and not the other way around.

 

By that reasoning in order for Fain/Mordeth/Mashadar to destroy the DO he would essentially have to be as powerful (or MORE powerful) than the DO himself, which just doesn't seem anywhere near reasonable.

 

 

 

Musing 2:

I believe that Fain is viewed by some as an aberration in the pattern, and this is what will finally result in the DO's destruction. This is impossible for multiple reasons. For one, the very existence of an aberration in the pattern is an impossibility. As far as we know the pattern is still strong enough to weave the direction of events (the ta'veren power still holds true, after all, and there are still Foretellings and Talents), and the bubbles of evil haven't become as frequent or powerful as they are now until far after Fain was cobbled together. If Fain was an aberration in the Pattern, then the pattern would attempt to smooth that wrinkle out. In fact, we see the pattern attempting to fix aberrations throughout the series (most recently in Hinderstap, where every night the pattern "reweaves" itself to erase what has occurred).

 

Second, Fain cannot exist "outside" of the Pattern and still be within the pattern. That is paradoxical in nature (which is something attributed to the DO... hmm). Besides, the only other thing we know of that exists outside of the pattern are vacuoles, and we can be certain that they exist WELL and TRULY outside of the pattern--the realities present within one are completely separated from those "within" the pattern. If Fain was a being that existed outside the confines of the Pattern he would similarly be...well... outside the Pattern.

 

Third, we know that there have been countless Ages, countless turnings of the Wheel, prior to the present day in Randland. We also know that Talents, magics, etc. come and go, that there are Ages that do not know the DO's touch and Ages which are dominated by him. How likely is it that something akin to Mashadar has not existed in the past? Indeed, Mordeth found the source of his abilities somewhere, and I doubt that they were created just for him or just by him, so if the WoT stretches back to the beginning of existence, I find it truly hard to believe that similar powers have not existed in past turnings. How, then, can they pose such a threat to the DO? Is it simply the combination of powers in such a specific manner that makes Fain so dangerous?

 

Or is he not what we truly expect him to be? I expect all the hints leaning toward Fain being a "Gollum" figure are not what they appear.

[Elend]

This quote may be pertinent to the discussion...

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

 

Also...

 

He also mentioned the fact that Fain is essentially his wild card, a character that is outside the structure of the work and can therefore act totally unpredictably.

 

All quotes taken from...

 

https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_66gfzm5tfx

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, Fain is definitely an unknown factor.

 

I dont think he will be able to "break the wheel" or the pattern, I dont think it is even possible.

 

I really hope he doesnt play a gollum role. I would hate if he managed to unwittingly help Rand seal away the DO, and be even more disappointed if he managed to kill the DO.

 

I dont think it will happen though, I believe RJ was too good a writer to use him so close to gollums role. He may have gollum like properties, but I sincerely hope/doubt RJ would go so far as to duplicate gollums destruction of the Ring in Fain defeating the DO

[TreeJoe]

Fain will be critical to Rand winning in that he is an immensely powerful individual who reaps havoc with the Dark One's forces, and is traveling to the heart of the Dark One's power in waiting for Rand.

 

I'm guessing that we'll see something like the following happen:

 

1. Shaidar Haran's full power will be revealed in doing serious damage to the light's channelers, and we'll all think "who could stop him", and Fain kills him or they kill each other off.

 

2. Someone will be about to kill Rand and Fain will intervene because only HE is allowed to kill Rand

 

He's not going to be the saviour, but he will HELP the Light by "accident"

[Elend]

By the way, after reading this I kinda think that Fain is now an interesting character to read. In the past he hasn't been because he's just been all like, "I'm in your White Tower, corrupting your sisters! I'm in your rebellion, screwing with your soldiers!" but now he's all like, "I'm in your Blight, messing with your hordes!" A much better position for him, IMO.

 

That and the fact its been awhile since the last Fain PoV I think.

 

[Sid]

That and the fact its been awhile since the last Fain PoV I think.

Since Lord of Chaos ch 28

[jemron]

I just want people to know that I thought of that Fain is looking for Moridin but thinks he's Rand theory on my own too. I want some credit if you read it first!

 

Also a few things that stood out to me/theories/etc:

 

1. Fain will soon have a new name. Does anybody else think it will be Shai'tan?

2. For some reason I'm having a hard time picturing a worm that is purple as being scary/dangerous

3. Mashadar FTW!

4. As to Fain bleeding, I got the impression he was bleeding because he liked it, but whoever mentioned that he was probably doing it to attract Shadowspawn; well that makes way more sense

5. Interesting comparison that somebody made about Fain becoming Machin Shin. Very interesting; though I think he's actually becoming the new DO. If not, he's too close to Gholum for my tastes. I mean, if all he will be used for will be to just kill the DO... that would feel too much like LotR to me; though I do think that they could both potentially destroy each other, just as Mashadar killed the taint on saidin

 

That is all (what's with me making all these lists lately?)

 

I had never really considered it before, but the idea that Fain may be the DO is interesting. Though I don't think Fain is going to be the Dark One, so much as perhaps the DO is an amaglamation of past Fain's or Fain-like characters(depending on just how exactly these actions of the Wheel repeat themselves). When all is said and done, this Fain just being another incarnation added to the seething mix trapped inside the DO's prison.

 

I find this compelling because Fain has become a potent mix of human evil, madness, greed, lust for power etc. It would make sense if the Dark One is actually the personification of the negative aspects of humankind locked up by the Creator.

 

Also, if we accept the probable result of this being a pre-destination paradox, then it goes a long way towards explaining the entire dynamic of the Dragon Reborn. And why the Dark One is so obsessed with him.

 

Perhaps the True Power is a distilled and potent form of the mist that Fain is now displaying. Or perhaps the subtle power, slight as it is, that the DO has over the entire planet is a weakened version of that mist. Maybe both.

 

There are also some interesting connections between Shadar Haran and Fain being tied to the DO himself. And I have a feeling the bit about Fade's dying just from the touch of Fain is signifigant. I am not sure how those would fit in.

 

There are some problems with this idea, of course. Like for instance why the Dark One would want to turn Rand rather then killing him(as Fain is very focused on doing) or why there has been so much emphasis put on the evil of the DO and Shadar Logoth being opposing forces(though this could be that Fain's evil is esentially the same, but a step off of the evil it came from and will eventually rejoin. Sort of, out of tune with that evil, if you get what I mean)

 

To clarify, I don't think he is the DO, I think he'll become the "new" DO.

[theblacksmith]

I have been pondering Fain, and here is my speculation on his role...

 

Taking into account the quote above from RJ (side stepped the pattern/ wildcard)I honestly believe Fain can save Rand.

 

I was trying to figure out The Dragon Reborn's Purpose...I mean if all it really takes is for men and women to channel in concert to emplace a perfect seal (the seal that begins the ages of peace) what truly does The DR do. I am stuck on the fact that the male half of the Power was tainted because the men had to touch him with it to hold his essence in check while the seals were placed. Which lead me to believe that the same would happen if both sides were used to do the exact same. (Someone posted on another thread RJ saying in fact both halves would have been tainted.) I believe the Dragon is Reborn to be that buffer his blood on the rocks of SG is his Life in actuality but not such a literal translation (perhaps this is some pr by Ishy for if he simply dies by normal means in this battle, the DO wins) The DR will confront the DO by sacrificing himself once the last seal is broken by holding the DO in check (only DR will be touching/holding back the DO) while the AS and AM place the seal...LTT, said the plan was flawed because they (women) would not come, but I think he only did what he could and not what should have been done during this sealing. The main point here is, something of power must be used to hold the DO inside the bore after the seals are removed so that the new seals can be replaced...I submit in all turnings prior, based on the "wild card" quote the Dragon has been that buffer.

 

Enter Fain, who has inherited the power of Mordeth, and has forgotten that he is Fain, walking through the Blight with a seeming equal hatred of the DO and Rand. His powers (which I believe are inherited from Mordeth) are increasing (after this prologue I also am certain in my belief that it was him controlling MS in the ways that prevented Rand from following. Note the similarities in their dealing death equally to the minions of the DO and anyone who crosses paths with either. Possibly both, the powers Mordeth found in his studies and the black wind originate from the same source) At any rate this guy has forgotten who he is, but is reveling in the forces that have taken him, exulting in this power and acting in the manner in which these controlling forces wish, The DO set him to hunt Rand so he is waiting to ambush him, Mordeth's power seeks to corrupt and destroy to include the DO. I believe Fain has sufficient power to do as the DR has done throughout time, he can be that buffer.

 

Why would he?

 

The Last Book is titled "A Memory of Light" who else has drifted so far from their vision of self, who has been totally denied the aid or assistance of the light? I recall earlier Fain wishing he could go back and do things differently, while ranting prior to the Rand encounter in Bayer??? He very well may confront and destroy SH and all such things, but as the clarity dawns (AMoL)on Rand of what he must do, what he has done many times before, and what is truly required of the Dragon, Fain will share in his own Memory of Light, he will remember he was Fain, and the DO lead him to SL hunting like an animal...be it from fear of the DO being so close or finally within reach to attempt his destruction Fain wil choose to fight the DO instead of the Light. He will then attack and force the DO back into the bore and hold him at bay while the AS & AM do the seal that is required for the age to pass and the others to go forward, while the "wild card" will allow the hero to live on.

 

First Prediction but don't hold back...I can take it, I think

[Sharaman]

Note that for inscrutable reasons the GLoD seems to need the DR. Ishy has done his best to find the DR, provoke him, turn him but keep him alive. If it was just a question of the GLoD destroying the Seals and widening the Bore, until he got free and touched the world, well he could have just continued quietly beavering away in the Blight as he has, for 3000 years. It may take some more time but what does time mean anyhow to GLoD?

 

Rand would have channeled and gone nuts without ever necessarily even figuring out that he was the DR if all had been quiet. Even after Rand figured stuff out, he was pushed into action. Again if the Forsaken had been ordered to sit tight and not create trouble, it would actually have been more difficult for Rand to get Wotland to back him. The FS removed legitimate rulers, plunged countries into chaos, which made things easier for Rand.

 

Why?

Presumably GLoD (and Ishamael) thinks that Rand could, at the very least, considerably accelerate the jail break. More likely, there is something that GLoD cannot do, something not even His Chosen can do, which the DR can. It cannot be purely power-related - the Chosen include many strong, talented channelers of both genders and He is the TP, as well.

So the GLoD wants Rand at SG, doing something that's uniquely possible only for the DR to do.

 

At the same time, the DR is a creature of the Pattern who has the power somehow to seal the GLoD away more permanently. It's been done before, we know that due to the circularity of the WoT and the fact that nobody knew of the GLoD's prison in the AoL. Fel had figured out some way to do it, at least theoretically, even if he hadn't got the technical details in place.

 

Fain doesn't feature in any of these equations. He cannot, except perhaps, in what the Finn saw). Fain is a wild-card, the equivalent of Fain didn't exist earlier, whenever the last effective removal of the GLoD from the Pattern occurred. Any method involving Fain must necessarily be new and more or less outside all earlier calculations. So it could be a bit of a red herring to try and work Fain into earlier hints we've got about Sealing off GLoD, except perhaps in the context of the "To live you must die" answer.

[deltadisco]

I just want people to know that I thought of that Fain is looking for Moridin but thinks he's Rand theory on my own too. I want some credit if you read it first!

 

Also a few things that stood out to me/theories/etc:

 

1. Fain will soon have a new name. Does anybody else think it will be Shai'tan?

2. For some reason I'm having a hard time picturing a worm that is purple as being scary/dangerous

3. Mashadar FTW!

4. As to Fain bleeding, I got the impression he was bleeding because he liked it, but whoever mentioned that he was probably doing it to attract Shadowspawn; well that makes way more sense

5. Interesting comparison that somebody made about Fain becoming Machin Shin. Very interesting; though I think he's actually becoming the new DO. If not, he's too close to Gholum for my tastes. I mean, if all he will be used for will be to just kill the DO... that would feel too much like LotR to me; though I do think that they could both potentially destroy each other, just as Mashadar killed the taint on saidin

 

That is all (what's with me making all these lists lately?)

 

I had never really considered it before, but the idea that Fain may be the DO is interesting. Though I don't think Fain is going to be the Dark One, so much as perhaps the DO is an amaglamation of past Fain's or Fain-like characters(depending on just how exactly these actions of the Wheel repeat themselves). When all is said and done, this Fain just being another incarnation added to the seething mix trapped inside the DO's prison.

 

I find this compelling because Fain has become a potent mix of human evil, madness, greed, lust for power etc. It would make sense if the Dark One is actually the personification of the negative aspects of humankind locked up by the Creator.

 

Also, if we accept the probable result of this being a pre-destination paradox, then it goes a long way towards explaining the entire dynamic of the Dragon Reborn. And why the Dark One is so obsessed with him.

 

Perhaps the True Power is a distilled and potent form of the mist that Fain is now displaying. Or perhaps the subtle power, slight as it is, that the DO has over the entire planet is a weakened version of that mist. Maybe both.

 

There are also some interesting connections between Shadar Haran and Fain being tied to the DO himself. And I have a feeling the bit about Fade's dying just from the touch of Fain is signifigant. I am not sure how those would fit in.

 

There are some problems with this idea, of course. Like for instance why the Dark One would want to turn Rand rather then killing him(as Fain is very focused on doing) or why there has been so much emphasis put on the evil of the DO and Shadar Logoth being opposing forces(though this could be that Fain's evil is esentially the same, but a step off of the evil it came from and will eventually rejoin. Sort of, out of tune with that evil, if you get what I mean)

 

To clarify, I don't think he is the DO, I think he'll become the "new" DO.

 

As I've been going through my latest re-read of the series I feel more and more strongly that this really is where Fain is headed. Rand's idea to destroy the DO this time around just doesn't

seem to fit in with the pattern - it sure seems like the DO exists for a reason (balance, likely) and I'm now pretty convinced that Fain is the way the pattern will correct itself for the next

turning.

 

My money is on that whatever the light does to rid themselves of the current DO will work (with Fain's intervention or not) but somehow Fain will end up sealed away to be the next iteration

of the DO.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Ahhhh, it was Fain. :D Not really a LOT of details, but enough to make it obvious he's the Shadowspawn thief. And Mashadar...that rocks. I was thinking RJ had ruled it out, but I should have known better. It makes a lot more sense that way.

 

Really? Strange, when I read it I actually thought the complete opposite; it basically confirmed it wasn't him. It just doesn't fit his thoughts, his ramblings. He has to torture Fades to get what he wants, and the way the Trollocs respond to him; surely if he was able to theoretically steal thousands of them, a small band would be nothing?

 

At the very least, its far from obvious.

 

Not only that, but if was him wouldn't they all have been zombified? "Sluggish and dull" and their skin all ruptured and bleeding and what not. Seems like something Rand and Co would have noticed with there being thousands of them and all.

[Sharaman]

The only possibility if you think Fain orchestrated the attack on Algiarin's manor is that Fain can somehow use his control of mashadar, combined to his power of illusion (as in WH), to pull out sammael's soul, with chosen-mark and all, and force shadowspawn to follow him. This is very far-fetched but not outright impossible since Sammael died of Mashadar and GLoD hasn't reclaimed him since his soul was twisted by the mashadar taint.

The question remains, why would Fain go through this elaborate zombie ritual then, however? Maybe because he's mad or he wouldn't be able to retain control of a trolloc -fade horde if a genuine live FS arrived.

Lucker's Taim-theory (or the possibility that some other Forsaken imitated Sammael) actually seems more believable.