The Bodyswap Theory

[Sabio]

My guess is all the three lost their Ta'veran stuff, Mat more than likely still has all his battle memories.  He doesn't need to be Ta'veran to take back Seanchan, with those memories he is the greatest living general not to mention his side has abilities the rebels in Seanchan don't.  How to make gateways, the floating gateways in the air, will mat give the Seanchan the secrets to make dragons or those new rapid firing crossbows?

[BFG]

Sutt, actually those sentences made me wonder if Perrin still was, with him going to kill a friend... I know there are other people it could be, but the better story is if it's Mat.

 

Conversely

 

I don't think that they need to necessarily be powerful to affect things. He could have had a major bust up with Tuon about damane and thrown out, if slaves are against the pattern it still needs someone to counter that...

[damandred]

Good spot by luckers to see the body swap in 2010. But the fact remains it hasnt been explained how it happened.

Rand in his old body carried out moridin, while having some sort of vision, of a jenn? Telling him it was what he had to do.

So the swap happened inside the healing tent. I have no idea how that could of happened, as both rand and moridin were not channeling at that point. ( dont know if it has been cleared up in thread as have only read current page).

As for rands ability to light his pipe out of nothing, he wove that reality, does that make him some sort of de facto creator?

[Estetio]

Good spot by luckers to see the body swap in 2010. But the fact remains it hasnt been explained how it happened.

Rand in his old body carried out moridin, while having some sort of vision, of a jenn? Telling him it was what he had to do.

So the swap happened inside the healing tent. I have no idea how that could of happened, as both rand and moridin were not channeling at that point. ( dont know if it has been cleared up in thread as have only read current page).

As for rands ability to light his pipe out of nothing, he wove that reality, does that make him some sort of de facto creator?

 

Are you sure about Rand carrying Moridin out in his old body? If i didn´t forget that part, or missunderstood, i thought when Rand was out of the cave he was *actually* in Moridin's body, and the change ocurred somewhere between Nynaeve and Moraine going out and the meeting with the aiel woman.

 

And for the "jenn", well... I can feel in my bones that the old woman could be Egwene... but that is only speculation (more than the other things, you know).

[udbabor520]

But the fact remains it hasnt been explained how it happened.

 

 

Oh, the answer is really easy. Jordan died, there were nothing in the notes, so they decided that they will go by the most popular fan theories. That's it. End of story.

 

(That's why nobody thinks about seriously about the books written by Sanderson. Because there were only a handful notes left behind, and even these notes often contradicts to each other.)

[Estetio]

 

But the fact remains it hasnt been explained how it happened.

 

 

Oh, the answer is really easy. Jordan died, there were nothing in the notes, so they decided that they will go by the most popular fan theories. That's it. End of story.

 

(That's why nobody thinks about seriously about the books written by Sanderson. Because there were only a handful notes left behind, and even these notes often contradicts to each other.)

 

 

Actually, the epilogue was written by Robert Jordan (all Mat and Rand parts at least)... and, in my opinion, Sanderson did a great job, considering the circunstances.

So the end *was* that, with the pipe, Moridin's body... if Robert Jordan was alife probably there would be the same questions about the body swap and all of that, i think.

[damandred]

 

 

Good spot by luckers to see the body swap in 2010. But the fact remains it hasnt been explained how it happened.

Rand in his old body carried out moridin, while having some sort of vision, of a jenn? Telling him it was what he had to do.

So the swap happened inside the healing tent. I have no idea how that could of happened, as both rand and moridin were not channeling at that point. ( dont know if it has been cleared up in thread as have only read current page).

As for rands ability to light his pipe out of nothing, he wove that reality, does that make him some sort of de facto creator?

Are you sure about Rand carrying Moridin out in his old body? If i didn´t forget that part, or missunderstood, i thought when Rand was out of the cave he was *actually* in Moridin's body, and the change ocurred somewhere between Nynaeve and Moraine going out and the meeting with the aiel woman.

 

And for the "jenn", well... I can feel in my bones that the old woman could be Egwene... but that is only speculation (more than the other things, you know).

Page 895 (to see the answer) aMoL " We found them together" Flinn said " Rand must have carried him out of the pit. We dont no why the Lord Dragon would save one of the Forsaken, but it doesn't matter. We cant heal him either. They're dying. Both if them."

And to put it beyound doubt that it was Rand carrying Moridin and not the other way around, we have Rands PoV on page 892. " closing. He thought. Its closing. The ceiling lowered like a shutting jaw, stone grinding against stone. With a gasp, Rand reached open air as the rocks slammed down behind him, locking together like clenched teeth.

Rand tripped. The body in his arms was so heavy. He slipped to the ground."

As rand was suprised when he woke in moridins body in the healing tent, it stands to reason the swap happened there. Unless he didnt notice comming out of the pit that he was in a differant body and carrying his own.

 

I cant imagin why you would think the jenn was egwene. It seems to me that the Jenn and old Aes Sedai had some way to comunicate with or affect the future. Remember Avihendha' visit in the waste. Though that is something also unexplained.

[Estetio]

 

Page 895 (to see the answer) aMoL " We found them together" Flinn said " Rand must have carried him out of the pit. We dont no why the Lord Dragon would save one of the Forsaken, but it doesn't matter. We cant heal him either. They're dying. Both if them."

And to put it beyound doubt that it was Rand carrying Moridin and not the other way around, we have Rands PoV on page 892. " closing. He thought. Its closing. The ceiling lowered like a shutting jaw, stone grinding against stone. With a gasp, Rand reached open air as the rocks slammed down behind him, locking together like clenched teeth.

Rand tripped. The body in his arms was so heavy. He slipped to the ground."

As rand was suprised when he woke in moridins body in the healing tent, it stands to reason the swap happened there. Unless he didnt notice comming out of the pit that he was in a differant body and carrying his own.

 

I cant imagin why you would think the jenn was egwene. It seems to me that the Jenn and old Aes Sedai had some way to comunicate with or affect the future. Remember Avihendha' visit in the waste. Though that is something also unexplained.

 

 

"We found them together", could be Rand in Moridin's body taking out his old body. That line doesn´t say anything, it's just a *logical guess* from Flinn.

 

In Rand's PoV there isn´t any clue about that neither. And when he woke up he wasn't surprised, he was feeling joyful about being in Moridin's body. Probably he thought he wouldn't make it and both die.

 

 

And for Egwene... It's about the Flame of Tar Valon, something entirely opposite to the balefire. If the balefire burned the threads of the Pattern, the Flame of Tar Valon healed (calling it someway) that threads. So, if the balefire can change the past about something that has happened... Why the Flame of Tar valon couldn't do the same? I mean, *heal* the past and extend those  threads to the future. And with that creepy end she had, why not becoming something in the future and in the past? That would explain Nakomi being Egwene, her meeting with Aviendha and how Nakomi behave with Aviendha, a woman at the exit of the cave dressed as an aiel, and that "Nakomi is an ancient name". And considering Egwene had *Aiel's Heart*... Yeah, i know it's a bit weird... but make sense to me. 

[damandred]

 

 

Page 895 (to see the answer) aMoL " We found them together" Flinn said " Rand must have carried him out of the pit. We dont no why the Lord Dragon would save one of the Forsaken, but it doesn't matter. We cant heal him either. They're dying. Both if them."

And to put it beyound doubt that it was Rand carrying Moridin and not the other way around, we have Rands PoV on page 892. " closing. He thought. Its closing. The ceiling lowered like a shutting jaw, stone grinding against stone. With a gasp, Rand reached open air as the rocks slammed down behind him, locking together like clenched teeth.

Rand tripped. The body in his arms was so heavy. He slipped to the ground."

As rand was suprised when he woke in moridins body in the healing tent, it stands to reason the swap happened there. Unless he didnt notice comming out of the pit that he was in a differant body and carrying his own.

 

I cant imagin why you would think the jenn was egwene. It seems to me that the Jenn and old Aes Sedai had some way to comunicate with or affect the future. Remember Avihendha' visit in the waste. Though that is something also unexplained.

 

"We found them together", could be Rand in Moridin's body taking out his old body. That line doesn´t say anything, it's just a *logical guess* from Flinn.

 

In Rand's PoV there isn´t any clue about that neither. And when he woke up he wasn't surprised, he was feeling joyful about being in Moridin's body. Probably he thought he wouldn't make it and both die.

 

 

And for Egwene... It's about the Flame of Tar Valon, something entirely opposite to the balefire. If the balefire burned the threads of the Pattern, the Flame of Tar Valon healed (calling it someway) that threads. So, if the balefire can change the past about something that has happened... Why the Flame of Tar valon couldn't do the same? I mean, *heal* the past and extend those threads to the future. And with that creepy end she had, why not becoming something in the future and in the past? That would explain Nakomi being Egwene, her meeting with Aviendha and how Nakomi behave with Aviendha, a woman at the exit of the cave dressed as an aiel, and that "Nakomi is an ancient name". And considering Egwene had *Aiel's Heart*... Yeah, i know it's a bit weird... but make sense to me.

 

It seems to me that in Rands PoV, it is very unlikely that Rand carried his own body out of the pit of doom, while inhabbiting moridins, for the simple reason that he would have noticed.

 

And he was suprised to awake in moridins body as he woke he felt for his wound on his side. At the very least he didnt exspect to wake in it.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

Page 895 (to see the answer) aMoL " We found them together" Flinn said " Rand must have carried him out of the pit. We dont no why the Lord Dragon would save one of the Forsaken, but it doesn't matter. We cant heal him either. They're dying. Both if them."

And to put it beyound doubt that it was Rand carrying Moridin and not the other way around, we have Rands PoV on page 892. " closing. He thought. Its closing. The ceiling lowered like a shutting jaw, stone grinding against stone. With a gasp, Rand reached open air as the rocks slammed down behind him, locking together like clenched teeth.

Rand tripped. The body in his arms was so heavy. He slipped to the ground."

As rand was suprised when he woke in moridins body in the healing tent, it stands to reason the swap happened there. Unless he didnt notice comming out of the pit that he was in a differant body and carrying his own.

 

I cant imagin why you would think the jenn was egwene. It seems to me that the Jenn and old Aes Sedai had some way to comunicate with or affect the future. Remember Avihendha' visit in the waste. Though that is something also unexplained.

"We found them together", could be Rand in Moridin's body taking out his old body. That line doesn´t say anything, it's just a *logical guess* from Flinn.

 

In Rand's PoV there isn´t any clue about that neither. And when he woke up he wasn't surprised, he was feeling joyful about being in Moridin's body. Probably he thought he wouldn't make it and both die.

 

 

And for Egwene... It's about the Flame of Tar Valon, something entirely opposite to the balefire. If the balefire burned the threads of the Pattern, the Flame of Tar Valon healed (calling it someway) that threads. So, if the balefire can change the past about something that has happened... Why the Flame of Tar valon couldn't do the same? I mean, *heal* the past and extend those threads to the future. And with that creepy end she had, why not becoming something in the future and in the past? That would explain Nakomi being Egwene, her meeting with Aviendha and how Nakomi behave with Aviendha, a woman at the exit of the cave dressed as an aiel, and that "Nakomi is an ancient name". And considering Egwene had *Aiel's Heart*... Yeah, i know it's a bit weird... but make sense to me.

 

It seems to me that in Rands PoV, it is very unlikely that Rand carried his own body out of the pit of doom, while inhabbiting moridins, for the simple reason that he would have noticed.

 

And he was suprised to awake in moridins body as he woke he felt for his wound on his side. At the very least he didnt exspect to wake in it.

 

 

 

Actually, we do have more. It's stated that they were found together and it is then added that Rand must have carried him out. Based on Rand's PoV of him leaving and how he collapsed after, it should have been easy to tell who carried who when they were found.

[Sabio]

It is a good point, we have no idea when Rand came out of the pit if he was already in Mordin's body, or if he started the body swap when he stumbled out and Nakomi found him.  It s possible she aided somehow.  I am guessing the strange lady at the end was Nakomi.  Flinn might of simply assumed Rand carried Moridin out simply because it is highly unlikely Moridin would of carried Rand out or that they came out walking together.  For all we know the bodies when found might of been side by side.  Might biggest complaint about the body swap is simply there should of been some hint put in the book on how Rand came to suspect it.  It was clear at the end he wasn't totally shocked to find himself in Moridin's body, he seemed more surprised by the absence of pain.  And having Alviria lay his stuff and coin meant he had planned ahead he would live and the goal was everyone think the dragon reborn had died. 

[damandred]

I think it is pretty conclusive he came out of the pit in his own body carrying moridins. He was aware enough of the cave to be shutting like " a closing jaw" it is remarked on that he found the body in his arms heavy. He would of surely noticed and thought upon in his PoV that it was his own body he carried.

and sorry maybe its just me but there is some suprise when Rand wakes up in moridins body, not shock, but suprise non the less. That he had Alivia leave coin ect, is an indication that he saw a small chance that he may live. But i dont think that he had any idea that if he did it would be in a differant body.

[Estetio]

I think it is pretty conclusive he came out of the pit in his own body carrying moridins. He was aware enough of the cave to be shutting like " a closing jaw" it is remarked on that he found the body in his arms heavy. He would of surely noticed and thought upon in his PoV that it was his own body he carried.

and sorry maybe its just me but there is some suprise when Rand wakes up in moridins body, not shock, but suprise non the less. That he had Alivia leave coin ect, is an indication that he saw a small chance that he may live. But i dont think that he had any idea that if he did it would be in a differant body.

 

I think the body swap ocurred in the pits, after Moraine and Nynaeve leaving, and in the PoV he was only thinking about going out of the cave. If not, he could have thought he was carrying Moridin's body. He didn't say whose body was.

 

And why inside the pit? Because it's the only moment when he's alone with Moridin. After that... well, it didn't seem to me there's a chance for that.

 

He was surprised, yeah, not with the body swap, but with the fact he survived (and as Sabio said by the absence of pain). Because it was only a chance, after the body swap, that he could live.

[damandred]

 

 

I think it is pretty conclusive he came out of the pit in his own body carrying moridins. He was aware enough of the cave to be shutting like " a closing jaw" it is remarked on that he found the body in his arms heavy. He would of surely noticed and thought upon in his PoV that it was his own body he carried.

and sorry maybe its just me but there is some suprise when Rand wakes up in moridins body, not shock, but suprise non the less. That he had Alivia leave coin ect, is an indication that he saw a small chance that he may live. But i dont think that he had any idea that if he did it would be in a differant body.

I think the body swap ocurred in the pits, after Moraine and Nynaeve leaving, and in the PoV he was only thinking about going out of the cave. If not, he could have thought he was carrying Moridin's body. He didn't say whose body was.

 

And why inside the pit? Because it's the only moment when he's alone with Moridin. After that... well, it didn't seem to me there's a chance for that.

 

He was surprised, yeah, not with the body swap, but with the fact he survived (and as Sabio said by the absence of pain). Because it was only a chance, after the body swap, that he could live.

I will have to disagree that the body swap happened inside the pit. There is no reason to think or any indication, that Rand was not in his own body on leaving the pit.

I think there is a suggestion of suprise that when he sees his " own left hand" and has to get a mirror.

I think Moridins soul left his body in the pit, and it was a empty shell Rand carried out, but, the swap happened inside the tent, i think nynaeve' comments are a clue about this. " Its not fair" Nynaeve said " Why should he die, when the other one gets better?" Earlier it was said by Flinn that they were both dying, now however Moridins body is getting better, ie, there is now a soul inhabbitting that body while Rands battered empty shell dies.

Also it is first remarked around this time how little reation there is from the " three" about Rands dying

[Estetio]

 

I will have to disagree that the body swap happened inside the pit. There is no reason to think or any indication, that Rand was not in his own body on leaving the pit.

I think there is a suggestion of suprise that when he sees his " own left hand" and has to get a mirror.

I think Moridins soul left his body in the pit, and it was a empty shell Rand carried out, but, the swap happened inside the tent, i think nynaeve' comments are a clue about this. " Its not fair" Nynaeve said " Why should he die, when the other one gets better?" Earlier it was said by Flinn that they were both dying, now however Moridins body is getting better, ie, there is now a soul inhabbitting that body while Rands battered empty shell dies.

Also it is first remarked around this time how little reation there is from the " three" about Rands dying

 

 

Yeah, i get your point, 'cos i thought the same once, but how a one-hand man (exhausted after the Dark One sealing) could carry a body more or less his weight out of a "closing cave"? 

It makes more sense, at least to me, if he *had already* both hands. So... Rand was already in Moridin's body.

 

P.S: I felt creepy Moraine and Nynaeve going out without Rand, probably because they thought he was dead, and the one alife was Moridin.

[damandred]

 

 

I will have to disagree that the body swap happened inside the pit. There is no reason to think or any indication, that Rand was not in his own body on leaving the pit.

I think there is a suggestion of suprise that when he sees his " own left hand" and has to get a mirror.

I think Moridins soul left his body in the pit, and it was a empty shell Rand carried out, but, the swap happened inside the tent, i think nynaeve' comments are a clue about this. " Its not fair" Nynaeve said " Why should he die, when the other one gets better?" Earlier it was said by Flinn that they were both dying, now however Moridins body is getting better, ie, there is now a soul inhabbitting that body while Rands battered empty shell dies.

Also it is first remarked around this time how little reation there is from the " three" about Rands dying

 

Yeah, i get your point, 'cos i thought the same once, but how a one-hand man (exhausted after the Dark One sealing) could carry a body more or less his weight out of a "closing cave"?

It makes more sense, at least to me, if he *had already* both hands. So... Rand was already in Moridin's body.

 

P.S: I felt creepy Moraine and Nynaeve going out without Rand, probably because they thought he was dead, and the one alife was Moridin.

It makes a lot more sense to me a young, strong one handed man carrying out moridin, than him failing to notice that he is in a new body, and has two hands.

I think its pretty thin to say he couldnt carry out Moridins body coz he was tirered and only had one hand.

[Sabio]

Everyone who says Rand would of noticed if he carried his own body had he been in Mordins forgets what the book said:

 

Rand slipped on his own blood.

He couldn't see, he carried something.  Something heavy, a body.  He stumbled out of the tunnel. 

 

Then it goes on to say:

Rand tripped.  The body in his arms was so heavy.  He slipped to the ground.  He could......see just faintly, A figure kneeling down beside him.   "Yes", a woman whispered.  He did not recognize the voice.  "Yes, that's good.  That is what you need to do".   He blinked his vision fuzzy.  Was that aiel clothing?  An old woman, with grey hair?

 

 

So at no time could he tell what body he was carrying.  He was near death, exhausted, so I doubt he was in any condition to notice if he currently had one or two working arms.  Plus both had to of been alive since if Mordin's soul wasn't in one of the bodies it would of been dead.  Since Ny comments on one getting stronger and Rand's body slowly dying it means a soul had to of been in each.  

[Estetio]

Everyone who says Rand would of noticed if he carried his own body had he been in Mordins forgets what the book said:

 

Rand slipped on his own blood.

He couldn't see, he carried something.  Something heavy, a body.  He stumbled out of the tunnel. 

 

Then it goes on to say:

Rand tripped.  The body in his arms was so heavy.  He slipped to the ground.  He could......see just faintly, A figure kneeling down beside him.   "Yes", a woman whispered.  He did not recognize the voice.  "Yes, that's good.  That is what you need to do".   He blinked his vision fuzzy.  Was that aiel clothing?  An old woman, with grey hair?

 

 

So at no time could he tell what body he was carrying.  He was near death, exhausted, so I doubt he was in any condition to notice if he currently had one or two working arms.  Plus both had to of been alive since if Mordin's soul wasn't in one of the bodies it would of been dead.  Since Ny comments on one getting stronger and Rand's body slowly dying it means a soul had to of been in each.  

 

Yep, you are right, he probably went out of the cave without noticing whose body was carrying.

 

But, what about Nynaeve and Moraine leaving Rand in the cave, without any explanation?

[Sabio]

Honestly I don't think either of them expected him to ever come out of the cave.  But their running I took as self preservation since it said "Together they ran, away from the burning light behind".  I don't think they dared interrupt Rand and being in that bright light was too painful to just stand in, so they fled.

[mb]

Doubtless the closing contributed to the lack of vision while he was inside; since that probably made the area inside darker.

[damandred]

Everyone who says Rand would of noticed if he carried his own body had he been in Mordins forgets what the book said:

 

Rand slipped on his own blood.

He couldn't see, he carried something. Something heavy, a body. He stumbled out of the tunnel.

 

Then it goes on to say:

Rand tripped. The body in his arms was so heavy. He slipped to the ground. He could......see just faintly, A figure kneeling down beside him. "Yes", a woman whispered. He did not recognize the voice. "Yes, that's good. That is what you need to do". He blinked his vision fuzzy. Was that aiel clothing? An old woman, with grey hair?

 

 

So at no time could he tell what body he was carrying. He was near death, exhausted, so I doubt he was in any condition to notice if he currently had one or two working arms. Plus both had to of been alive since if Mordin's soul wasn't in one of the bodies it would of been dead. Since Ny comments on one getting stronger and Rand's body slowly dying it means a soul had to of been in each.

 

The book makes it clear that Rand can see the exit to the pit. "Closing like a snapping jaw". So i dont buy the idea that Rand is completly blind. However that bit is a bit vague and i can see pros and cons for him noticesing himself carrying his own body. I think he would have. but i supose it can be debated either way. But the thing that convinces me that the swap happened inside the healing tent is the fact that one minute both Rand and Moridin are dying the next Moridins getting better. How can you explain that, if Rands soul was already in Moridins body on entering the healing the tent, why didnt it respond to healing straight away?

[mb]

Their unconsciousness might be why they did not respond immediately.  Not entirely certain on that.

 

Though there might have been a chance that the body swap caused the consciousness.

[jack of shadows]

@demandred,

"the swap happened inside the healing tent".

if the body swap did happen inside the healing tent what was the old woman outside

the pit of doom talking about?

she said to rand:"yes that's good,that is what you need to do."

so according to her rand was doing something outside the pit of doom,if he wasn't swapping

bodies with moridin what was he doing?

[Sabio]

Now where does it say he saw the cave closing, since it said "stone grinding against stone" he simply might of heard it or been aware of it and the author was just being very descriptive.  But also since it slammed shut behind him, he would of had to of turned around to see it.  So again its more of a guess for what he could and couldn't see.  But for me its clear he was pretty blind and just stumbling about.

 

But also you can't really get into if soul swap happened here healing would of worked since we have no idea if that was case or how it works.  It might of started in the cave but wasn't completed until later in the tent.  Healing might have no effect at all and is simply a time thing, where the soul slowly has to get stronger on its own so regardless healing wouldn't of helped because it wasn't a physical issue.  We have no way of knowing. 

[mb]

It seems doubtful to me that the old woman was talking about swapping bodies.

more likely possibilities::

-Rand carrying the body

-Rand coming out of the cave