Do u feel that Rand was Too Hard On/Overreacted to Cadsuane in The Great Storm?

[The Fisher King]

Ive been thinking about it. My opinion, after reflection, is: Yes, in my opinion, Rand was too hard on Cadsuane after ''The Last That Could Be Done'' in Book 12.

 

Elza was only able to steal the Domination Band because Shaidar Haran ''loaned'' her the ability to do that.

 

SH is an avatar of The DARK ONE Himself!!!

 

No one would have been able to prevent anyone from stealing the Dominiation Band. ... Cadsuabe Sedai did her best. She had incredible Wards Woven around the wooden box it was being kept in.

 

Rand's tirade bordered on verbally abusive.  It wasn't her fault and she had worked for The Light for more years than Rand has been alive. And how many times has she saved him so far??

 

Now, of course I understand that part of Rand's reaction was cumulative. She has been a bit...curt...with him. But noone deserved Rand's reaction. Certainly not one of his most trusted allies.

 

 

Fish

[HornOfValere]

For me, ultimately, it's about the character herself.

 

I think she's a nasty piece of work and has had hundresd of years to perfect it. I don't actually know what her angle is on anything but she takes pride in being away from the Tower for years on end and knowing everything.

 

I think she doesn't quite know how to handle Rand, leading to her alliance with the Wise Ones, but I think it's disgusting that she won't let Nynaeve in on her plans when between them she is the one who knows him best. I think her arrogance is going to make her pay dearly and Rand's reaction to her is the best she could have gotten.

 

I think in general I don't like Aes Sedai, especially this new generation who you would have thought would bring some sense to the organisation but then you get someone like Egwene who is just a stick in the mud, leading the pack. Nynaeve is the most sensible out of them all, and she's quite arrogant as it is. I can understand her bullishness having been a Wisdom, but the lot of them just need to be dunked into the Two Rivers.

 

I think the Aes Sedai have yet to pay dearly for their attitude and I get the feeling Taim will be leading the rebellion against them.

[Durinax]

I think she deserved more, she has been excessively rough with him from the start and he did nothing like almost destroy the lights chances at TG.

 

True she warded them but think of it from rands view, Cadsuane had them, then they where around his neck. I would have reacted even worse, I probably would have had her thrown out the window. Plus i forgot that she starts reeming on him doing something in the post event actions teaching BF to a ashaman (?) or some such and she yells at him.

[Ala Rubra]

If I remember correctly, Cadsuane's warding was rather pathetic, and only useful against non-channelers. Didn't it just bind the victim and sound an alarm? The former can probably be channeled out of by any competent channeler, and the latter can be easily defeated by a simple eavesdropping ward. I mean, what the heck? That's it? As soon as Cadsuane let anyone other than herself know the make-up of her ward(which, IIRC, she did), it was like begging someone to steal it!

[Majsju]

You remember quite incorrecly. Casuanes Warding was pretty much impossible to get through. It was at least as good, probably better than the one Rand put on Callandor. Problem was, Cadsuane never anticipated the DO himself dropping by to teach Elze how to get through the warding. Something not even rand, with all his knowledge seems to be aware the DO might actually be able to do.

 

 

[Durinax]

You remember quite incorrecly. Casuanes Warding was pretty much impossible to get through. It was at least as good, probably better than the one Rand put on Callandor. Problem was, Cadsuane never anticipated the DO himself dropping by to teach Elze how to get through the warding. Something not even rand, with all his knowledge seems to be aware the DO might actually be able to do.

rands warding was a killing ward and thus is way better at protecting something. like previously said Cadsuanes was a capturing type of warding which if precautions where taken a person could try again and again to beat it.

 

also didnt cadsuane try to make that warding do multiple things? and it has been said multiple times that tryign to do that could render it useless. Just goign off of memory here

[OptimusPrime]

Cadsuane wasnt at fault for the bracelet incedent. She didnt exaclty help with Rands ongoing trust issues with Aes Sedai though, but Id say that doesnt involve the bracelet incedent at all. As Maj said, how could Cadsuane have known Shaidar would show up?

 

Talking about the type of weave Cadsuane used, and putting her at fault for the protection she put on it, is pointless. As far as she knew, she put the best protection on it as she could, one where she could not only learn who tried opening it but also to actually capture them. What else can she do, within her knowledge? I suppose she could be put at fault for it, but only in the same way that Rand is at fault for being stabbed twice by infecting evils. You could give him credit for being stabbed twice in the same place so the evils dont work as well, but then you would have to give Cadsuane credit because Elza was exposed and dealt with at the expense of, in the long run, Rand hitting rock bottom and picking himself up by himself. Which Cadsuane instigated.

 

I dont think Rand was too hard on her. He was hard on her for slightly the wrong reasons, but again, he doesnt know Shaidar exists, let alone intervened. The Shadow have done well, havent they?

[Ban thBomm]

Did it expressly state tha Elza retrieved the Domination Band?

 

There was a lot of mention in the lead-up to Cadsuane's re-setting of the wards, of how observant Sorilea was, and how quickly she learnt weaves....

 

...just sayin', that's all...

[Skeeve the Great]

I feel he was very SOFT on Cadsuane. He should've blasted her right there and then.

[bjclinton]

i liked it, if for no other reason than to see the balance shift back towards rand in his relationship with Caddy.

...it made for some pretty awesome reading.

[Ewandrina]

I do think he went a little over the top, there have been others who deserved that treatment, however as much as Cadsuane has tried to push Rand about he could have dealt with it in a better way.

[nnokwoodeye]

Rand was too hard on her for the simple reason that the whole incident was his fault. By now he should have known that there was no way a "half trained girl" could have stopped one of the forsaken. He had every reason to assume that semi escape was a result of his refusal to kill/still her.

[MikeRiley]

Does Rand even know how the warding was broken? I mean, what I remember of that scene was that Rand knows Cadsuane had charge of the domination band and that she claimed it was safe, and that it really wasn't. He put a lot of trust in her with letting her have that, of all things, and she blew it big time.

 

After all her manipulating behind his back she goes and fails him in this manner.. No, I don't believe he was too hard on her.

[-ZanMgt- OneNight]

Does Rand even know how the warding was broken? I mean, what I remember of that scene was that Rand knows Cadsuane had charge of the domination band and that she claimed it was safe, and that it really wasn't. He put a lot of trust in her with letting her have that, of all things, and she blew it big time.

 

After all her manipulating behind his back she goes and fails him in this manner.. No, I don't believe he was too hard on her.

I have to agree with MikeRiley. That Domination Band could have ended all hope for the light, and Cadsuane not only refused to give it up to Rand, so that he may lock it away with a fatal warding or two, or just destroy it. But she kept it and like Riley said, she claimed it was safe. When in fact all she did was set up an alarm and ensnare warding. Besides that Rand had been bottling up his anger for a while now until he couldn't take it anymore. If I was Rand I wouldn't be sure if Cadsuane was even with the light because of how often she had tried to manipulate/bully him to whatever she wanted to do. And how often Darkfriends in unexpected places, with the fact that as far as he knew Cadsuane probably gave the Domination Band to Semirhage. I think Cadsuane was lucky that Rand, in his current state, didn't balefire her on the spot.

[OptimusPrime]

Thing is, if Rand had killed Cadsuane he would still be walking round acting like a Forsaken and not caring about it. So one way or another, Cadsuanes so-called failure saved the world. It made Rand hit rockbottom, which made Cadsuane put Tam in Rands face. Make or break.

 

Plus, if you were Aes Sedai and had her experience with male channelers, which includes Mazrim Taim by the way, would you not see some possible use for that sad bracelet? Her hairnet ter'angreal have played a part in her success. The sad bracelets could surely hold a male Forsaken prisoner as far as Cadsuane knows, Cadsuane not knowing about the True Power and all that.

 

Seriously I think if people want to blame Cadsuane for something, blame her for her attitude. Not her "failure" because she without a doubt put Rand in a situation where he could not hide from himself anymore. Yes, Rands epiphany was his own, but he would not have reached the point of having it without the Tam incedent, which in turn required Cadsuane to do exactly what she did with the bracelet.

 

Well done Cadsuane. You set out to teach Rand how to laugh and cry, and you did it. Indirectly of course, but that is one hell of an achievement, considering we're talking about a Two Rivers man who forced himself to become near invulnerable, to become a living breathing weapon. Good lass.

[csarmi]

I don't understand the whole conversation. The Shadow did have several copies of that ter'angreal anyway, so why does it matter?

[OptimusPrime]

I don't understand the whole conversation. The Shadow did have several copies of that ter'angreal anyway, so why does it matter?

 

Rand and co dont know that though. The point is for Rand to think his minions are incompetant, or untrustworthy. Or both

[Duskfire]

If I was Rand I wouldn't be sure if Cadsuane was even with the light because of how often she had tried to manipulate/bully him to whatever she wanted to do. And how often Darkfriends in unexpected places, with the fact that as far as he knew Cadsuane probably gave the Domination Band to Semirhage. I think Cadsuane was lucky that Rand, in his current state, didn't balefire her on the spot.

 

He probably did come close to killing her, but there is no way he would believe she was a darkfriend. She had simply done too much to help him. And gone out of her way to do so.

 

Look, I am a huge Cadsuane sympathiser on the Boards. I think shes an awesome and a vastly underrated character and extremely important in the scheme of things. However, to some extent I do think she was in the wrong here. Yes she went out of her way to protect and shield the item, but at the same time she should have at least considered the fact that the Shadow would be interested in getting their hands on it. Especially with Semiharge literally around the corner.

[Dream]

Here's my take on this.

 

 

Was what happened unfair to Cadsuane?

 

Yes. She took the necessary precautions that were only defeated via Shaidar Haran. Not only this, the Dark has additional copies anyways. This was a set-up and really wasn't her fault.

 

 

Was Rand's reaction unreasonable?

 

No. The Light doesn't know about Shaidar Haran or his abilities. No one knows how it happened, only that Cadsuane assumed responsibility for it and failed to keep it secure. This could have led to alot of deaths, starting with Min. Banishment would be light for such a potentially cataclysmic failure. Again, this was not Cadsuane's fault, but no one knows this.

 

 

Did Cadsuane deserve this for the way she treated Rand?

 

IMO, Rand's failed relationship with Cadsuane is partially his fault. Yes, Cadsuane is pushy and disrespectful. But Rand allowed this by not putting his foot down and setting limits to what she was allowed to do. He gave her too much free reign over him and bottled up his resentment instead of being firm with her. Chalk it up to someone who has too much responsibility for such a young age.

 

 

Does Cadsuane deserve credit for Rand's epiphany?

 

Hell no. She was trying to help him get better but ended up pushing him over the edge. While not her intent, the cumulative effects of her treatment of him pushed him further and further to self-destruction. Cadsuane was one of the factors driving Rand insane and if we were to give her credit for it, then we should also give credit to Semirhage for making him cuendillar. It may be true that what happened (Rand getting better) might not have happened without Cadsuane's failure, but by this logic, none of this would have happened if Shaidar Haran hadn't set-up Cadsuane. And Shaidar Haran wouldn't exist without the Dark One. So in fact the Dark One saved the world. Go GLoD!

 

Rand deserves full credit for his epiphany. He chose to go to Dragonmount and sit down to think things through. He decided to continue the good fight despite supposedly being insane and tainted by the True Power.

 

Tam probably deserves a little credit for saying "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." ;)

 

[OptimusPrime]

If I was Rand I wouldn't be sure if Cadsuane was even with the light because of how often she had tried to manipulate/bully him to whatever she wanted to do. And how often Darkfriends in unexpected places, with the fact that as far as he knew Cadsuane probably gave the Domination Band to Semirhage. I think Cadsuane was lucky that Rand, in his current state, didn't balefire her on the spot.

 

He probably did come close to killing her, but there is no way he would believe she was a darkfriend. She had simply done too much to help him. And gone out of her way to do so.

 

Look, I am a huge Cadsuane sympathiser on the Boards. I think shes an awesome and a vastly underrated character and extremely important in the scheme of things. However, to some extent I do think she was in the wrong here. Yes she went out of her way to protect and shield the item, but at the same time she should have at least considered the fact that the Shadow would be interested in getting their hands on it. Especially with Semiharge literally around the corner.

 

So what exactly could she have done apart from put wards on the box? She put them there BECAUSE she knew people would be after it. She isnt daft, shes just not capable of seeing the future and pulling out of thin air that Shaidar would turn up.

 

Like I said, the Shadow have done well, because even people who see the bigger picture are still blaming either Rand or Cadsuane. They have been messed with.

[MikeRiley]

Thing is, if Rand had killed Cadsuane he would still be walking round acting like a Forsaken and not caring about it. So one way or another, Cadsuanes so-called failure saved the world. It made Rand hit rockbottom, which made Cadsuane put Tam in Rands face. Make or break.

 

That's not a very good example. All Cadsuane did was send Tam in to talk to Rand without telling Tam what was going on. She had to have known it could go very wrong and she did it anyway. Rand is the one who stopped Rand from balefiring Tam. Not Cadsuane. If you screw something up but everything works out for the best in the end, you don't get to pat yourself on the back because you were still responsible for the problem. In this case, the problem was Rand looking at one of the major cities and preparing to balefire it out of existence.

 

This logic is like saying Ishamael is responsible for Saidin being cleansed just because he did something that had this effect in the future. Or that the Black Ajah is responsible for his coming back to the Light because they made him crazy in the first place with that box. One way or another, it happened. Maybe if they knew what their actions would result in and worked towards it.. but they didn't. In Cadsuane's case, it wasn't to force Rand to hit a new low and go off on a killing rampage, it was so that he'd see the Light again by talking to his father. She failed. Rand didn't. His breakthrough came quite on his own after he nearly murdered a countless number of people.

 

In all, I have to say Cadsuane was a step away from being the biggest failure in history. If Rand hadn't come to his senses right before he could balefire Tam, it would have been game over for the Light side. We would be talking about whether or not Tam was Ilyena reborn. So if Cadsuane gets verbally abused or exiled, it's still less than she deserved.

[FarShainMael]

I'm with Dream all the way. I think Rand should be commended on his restraint in not balefiring Cadsuane!

 

[Coraxian]

Does Rand even know how the warding was broken? I mean, what I remember of that scene was that Rand knows Cadsuane had charge of the domination band and that she claimed it was safe, and that it really wasn't. He put a lot of trust in her with letting her have that, of all things, and she blew it big time.

 

After all her manipulating behind his back she goes and fails him in this manner.. No, I don't believe he was too hard on her.

 

My thoughts as well.  He didn't exactly ask Elza how they got the band before balefiring her.

 

I wouldn't exactly call it a tirade either.  Granted, the words were harsh, but composed.

 

When claiming that Cadsuane couldn't know SH would intervene (they don't even know he exists) you should also note that Rand was under the influence of the TP at that time and a step closer to Moridin in my eyes.

 

Imagine how a CEO would react if a manager had said :"don't worry, I've got it covered" only to find the company close to bankrupcy because apparently the manager didn't have it covered....

 

How do you think he should have reacted, if he wasn't under the influence of the TP?

[Jon Paul]

This is just a general rant against Cadsuane and some Nyn' fanboyism.

 

When you play with fire, you get burned.

 

Cadsuane never showed any real respect for Rand.  Not as a person nor as the Dragon.  Everything she did was calculated to oppose him and gain the upper hand, to have control over him.  How could she ever hope to teach him human emotion when she is so lacking in the virtues she preaches?

 

She didn't want Rand to find his humanity again because it would be good for Rand's soul, but because of the necessity of the Pattern.  There is nothing wrong with thinking in the grand scheme of things, but she should have been straight out honest about it.  Instead she tried to convince herself that it was for him.  Nyn' on the other hand cares about Rand's soul.  She cares about his salvation under the Light.  She truly appreciates he is a man.  When Rand explains about Dragonmount and the last climb, Nyn' is not sad that this is the Dragon the world is getting.. she was moved deeply because she saw in front of her a soul on the brink of damnation.  A very personal thing.

 

There was also how Cadsuane treated Rand when they were in company together.  She forced her own culture upon him.  She said she wished he was born in Far Madding, where a man has no power and is subject to a woman's whims.  This would have made it easier for her to control him.

 

She speaks of human emotion, whilst forcing him to bottle up his emotions.  Guess what?  Men get angry.  Guess what happens when men bottle up their anger?  It sometimes leads to unleashing Balefire and threatening the fabric of reality.. but yea, you know, who cares as long as the man is "civil" by some random Aes Sedai's cultural standards?

 

Cadsuane is Aes Sedai to the bone.

[aggs4life]

First, let me say I just finished my 3rd read through.  The first two times I read WoT I could not stand Cadsuane.  But now I have to say I like her.  Her intentions toward Rand are true and good, I do believe she cares for him, however terribly flawed her methods have been.  She also has accomplished great things, and been critical in saving Rand's life on at least 3 occasions; Fain attack (partially her fault), the Cleansing, and meeting with Semirhage.

 

So, my thoughts:

 

Was Rand to hard on Cadsuane?  Not in the least.  She utterly failed.  Could she have stopped it?  Yes, at least stoped them from using those specific male adam and thus sowing the mistrust with Rand that way.  She should have had the male adam destroyed immediately.  Yes she wanted to learn from it, but it was clear Rand was not going to allow it.  So considering that, and the fact that there was a captive female Forsaken in the camp as well as possible black ajah sisters (she has to be aware of the possibility), it was incredibly dumb to keep it/them.

 

This may not be related, but I think it also pushed Rand to do what he did to her: she is keeping the Coden Kal access key as well as Callandor from him.  She should not be doing that, she has no right to do it.  Rand faced down a member of the Forsaken, faced down death, both when he got Callandor, and when he got the acces key.  He earned them in every sense of the word, and both had been extremely safe while he had them and where in his protection.  The access key, at least, was not safe with Cadsuane, regardless of whether or not she could have predicted SH or had any chance of stopping him.