Is the CoL always born into the world twice each turning?

[Dagon Thyne]

I just wondering if Rand and LTT are diffetent than the past CoL. 

 

I mean, maybe the reason for being born twice is because this turning is actually different.  Maybe this is rezlly the final turning and the DO will be freed.  I would actually not be supprised. 

 

I think that the Dark one will be released and not only the world, but the wheel of time itself will be broken...

 

The winner of TG will remake the world as he sees fit....if the DO wins, it will be a world of desease, hunger, and darkness and all forms of evil..

 

If Rand wins, the creator will give him the power to banish all evil from the world...`there will be no crime, disease, war, ect.......

[Durinax]

how bout if rand wins the world is free from outside influence

[Crael123]

what is CoL...?

[Durinax]

what is CoL...?

Champion of light

[Thanatos]

If the DO wins, there will not be a world filled with disease, hunger, and strife.  He will shatter the Wheel, and time will cease to exist.  This is why all the Forsaken (other than Ishidin of course) are complete and utter fools.

[Skeeve the Great]

I just wondering if Rand and LTT are diffetent than the past CoL. 

 

Well, I think we can put this to rest. In tGS it's pretty clear that Rand (and LTT) was reborn many-many times and was always a CoL.

[Durinax]

I just wondering if Rand and LTT are diffetent than the past CoL. 

 

Well, I think we can put this to rest. In tGS it's pretty clear that Rand (and LTT) was reborn many-many times and was always a CoL.

I think he's saying is this turning different because the champion has been reborn twice in one age

[Jon Paul]

If the DO wins, there will not be a world filled with disease, hunger, and strife.  He will shatter the Wheel, and time will cease to exist.  This is why all the Forsaken (other than Ishidin of course) are complete and utter fools.

 

Which is why Elan is quite possibly the greatest villain in fantasy.  It takes a lot of balls to wake up one day and decide to work against ending existance and reality its self.  Not changing it, not for personal gain, just ending it all because it's all worthless.

[Skeeve the Great]

I just wondering if Rand and LTT are diffetent than the past CoL. 

 

Well, I think we can put this to rest. In tGS it's pretty clear that Rand (and LTT) was reborn many-many times and was always a CoL.

I think he's saying is this turning different because the champion has been reborn twice in one age

Twice? How come? LTT was born in second Age, Rand was born in third.

[jwillis7]

i started a tread on this a while a go here it is i did not want to retype (lazy sorry)

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,49020.0.html

[Skeeve the Great]

I think I got the source of confusion for me. Original post was implying that "usually" CoL is born once per Wheel turn (meaning is born once per 7 Ages). And some posts were saying twice per Age.

 

Ok, I got the idea of the original post and I strongly disagree with it.

 

So far we know the following repeatative Ages: First Age, where no One Power is known, Second Age, where One Power is widely used to create some sort of Utopia, Third Age, which if a fallout of utopian civilazation, Fourth Age, which supposed to be more peaceful than Third, where the Dark One supposed to be sealed away. We don't know what and how Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Ages supposed to look like, but

it supposed to be long and peacful enough so by the time Second Age comes again nobody knows what the Dark One is.

 

Implication of the original post is that in "usual", "normal" turn of the Wheel, from First to Seventh Ages, there is only one instance of Champion of Light happens.

 

I don't agree with this. There is no indication to that whatsoever.

 

[jwillis7]

did rj ever say there were 7 ages in a turning or is that just a spoke on the wheel theory?  i know people have said the 7 age thing i just dont know where it comes from

[Dagon Thyne]

I just wondering if Rand and LTT are diffetent than the past CoL. 

 

Well, I think we can put this to rest. In tGS it's pretty clear that Rand (and LTT) was reborn many-many times and was always a CoL.

 

Actually RJ said that it's a different person each team....just the same soul..it's not just LTT and Rand over and over....But I was talking about whether or not this turning could possibly be different than others..,like perhaps the pattern intends for the bettle to finally end in something other than a draw....In past turnings, the DO never got out...even when the CoL turned to the Shadow.....So we can safely assume that this turning is already different......perhaps it is litterally the Last Battle....I mean if Rand actually kills the DO, then how is the DO going to be imprisoned for the next turning?

 

Unless of course, it's one of those Balance of good and evil things and a new DO is created to take the old one's place and a new prison is formed.

[Thanatos]

If the DO wins, there will not be a world filled with disease, hunger, and strife.  He will shatter the Wheel, and time will cease to exist.  This is why all the Forsaken (other than Ishidin of course) are complete and utter fools.

 

Which is why Elan is quite possibly the greatest villain in fantasy.  It takes a lot of balls to wake up one day and decide to work against ending existance and reality its self.  Not changing it, not for personal gain, just ending it all because it's all worthless.

 

I agree with you whole-heartedly.  The whole philosophical aspect of Ishy is what makes his character the greatest in the series.  The rest of the forsaken side with the Shadow for personal gain.  Ishy just sides with him because he knows that eventually the DO WILL win.  I wonder what will happen in the end, now that he has a link with Rand.

 

I just wondering if Rand and LTT are diffetent than the past CoL. 

 

Well, I think we can put this to rest. In tGS it's pretty clear that Rand (and LTT) was reborn many-many times and was always a CoL.

 

Actually RJ said that it's a different person each team....just the same soul..it's not just LTT and Rand over and over....But I was talking about whether or not this turning could possibly be different than others..,like perhaps the pattern intends for the bettle to finally end in something other than a draw....In past turnings, the DO never got out...even when the CoL  turned to the Shadow.....So we can safely assume that this turning is already different......perhaps it is litterally the Last Battle....I mean if Rand actually kills the DO, then how is the DO going to be imprisoned for the next turning?

 

Unless of course, it's one of those Balance of good and evil things and a new DO is created to take the old one's place and a new prison is formed.

 

RJ confirmed that The Dragon has never turned to the shadow.  That was just Ishamael being a "lying liar who lies:.

[Ewandrina]

Crazy theory but her goes, The DO is vanquished BUT someone must take his place to keep the wheel turning or the world doesnt exist.

 

For eg, Rand kills the DO and traps (lets say Ishy) in his place. The reason the New DO is quite for such a long time is that it takes him a while to work out his new role and how to touch the world, once he knows how to do this he then tries to currupt evrything and the whole cycle starts again.

[Duskfire]

I agree with you whole-heartedly.  The whole philosophical aspect of Ishy is what makes his character the greatest in the series.  The rest of the forsaken side with the Shadow for personal gain.  Ishy just sides with him because he knows that eventually the DO WILL win.  I wonder what will happen in the end, now that he has a link with Rand.

 

But that is personal gain. Not wanting to exist anymore because ultimately its worthless is all about personal gain. Its just a very nihilistic view of personal gain, but regardless Ishamael is still benefiting from the Dark Ones victory. I agree that he has better reasons then the other Forsaken, but ultimately even for him it still comes down to personal gain. Its characters like Rand who fight on and on despite the lack of personal gain that makes a truly courageous person.

[Jon Paul]

But that is personal gain. Not wanting to exist anymore because ultimately its worthless is all about personal gain. Its just a very nihilistic view of personal gain, but regardless Ishamael is still benefiting from the Dark Ones victory. I agree that he has better reasons then the other Forsaken, but ultimately even for him it still comes down to personal gain. Its characters like Rand who fight on and on despite the lack of personal gain that makes a truly courageous person.

 

Well, how much can you say Elan stands to gain when the Dark One becomes victorious?  He will cease to exist, he will never have existed.  There is simply nothing :P..

 

But on a more serious note.. I still don't think you can call Elan's philosophy as being self serving.  He doesn't want the Dark One to be victorious so that he may gain non-existance out of it.. his entire service to the Dark One is entirely selfless.  He works for the Dark One becaue the Dark One will eventually break the Wheel.  Elan simply recognises that it is futile to fight it.  Just get it over and done with.

 

And I am not saying Elan is very courageous exactly.. not in a virtious sense.  But Rand does gain from fighting the Dark One.

[The Desert Pea]

If the DO wins, there will not be a world filled with disease, hunger, and strife.  He will shatter the Wheel, and time will cease to exist.  This is why all the Forsaken (other than Ishidin of course) are complete and utter fools.

 

Which is why Elan is quite possibly the greatest villain in fantasy.  It takes a lot of balls to wake up one day and decide to work against ending existance and reality its self.  Not changing it, not for personal gain, just ending it all because it's all worthless.

 

I agree with you whole-heartedly.  The whole philosophical aspect of Ishy is what makes his character the greatest in the series.  The rest of the forsaken side with the Shadow for personal gain.  Ishy just sides with him because he knows that eventually the DO WILL win.  I wonder what will happen in the end, now that he has a link with Rand.

 

I just wondering if Rand and LTT are diffetent than the past CoL. 

 

Well, I think we can put this to rest. In tGS it's pretty clear that Rand (and LTT) was reborn many-many times and was always a CoL.

 

Actually RJ said that it's a different person each team....just the same soul..it's not just LTT and Rand over and over....But I was talking about whether or not this turning could possibly be different than others..,like perhaps the pattern intends for the bettle to finally end in something other than a draw....In past turnings, the DO never got out...even when the CoL  turned to the Shadow.....So we can safely assume that this turning is already different......perhaps it is litterally the Last Battle....I mean if Rand actually kills the DO, then how is the DO going to be imprisoned for the next turning?

 

Unless of course, it's one of those Balance of good and evil things and a new DO is created to take the old one's place and a new prison is formed.

 

RJ confirmed that The Dragon has never turned to the shadow.  That was just Ishamael being a "lying liar who lies:.

 

Which of course means that the "Dragon soul" is not necessarily the CoL. Theory time ;)

[Dagon Thyne]

If the DO wins, there will not be a world filled with disease, hunger, and strife.  He will shatter the Wheel, and time will cease to exist.  This is why all the Forsaken (other than Ishidin of course) are complete and utter fools.

 

Which is why Elan is quite possibly the greatest villain in fantasy.  It takes a lot of balls to wake up one day and decide to work against ending existance and reality its self.  Not changing it, not for personal gain, just ending it all because it's all worthless.

 

I agree with you whole-heartedly.  The whole philosophical aspect of Ishy is what makes his character the greatest in the series.  The rest of the forsaken side with the Shadow for personal gain.  Ishy just sides with him because he knows that eventually the DO WILL win.  I wonder what will happen in the end, now that he has a link with Rand.

 

I just wondering if Rand and LTT are diffetent than the past CoL. 

 

Well, I think we can put this to rest. In tGS it's pretty clear that Rand (and LTT) was reborn many-many times and was always a CoL.

 

Actually RJ said that it's a different person each team....just the same soul..it's not just LTT and Rand over and over....But I was talking about whether or not this turning could possibly be different than others..,like perhaps the pattern intends for the bettle to finally end in something other than a draw....In past turnings, the DO never got out...even when the CoL  turned to the Shadow.....So we can safely assume that this turning is already different......perhaps it is litterally the Last Battle....I mean if Rand actually kills the DO, then how is the DO going to be imprisoned for the next turning?

 

Unless of course, it's one of those Balance of good and evil things and a new DO is created to take the old one's place and a new prison is formed.

 

RJ confirmed that The Dragon has never turned to the shadow.  That was just Ishamael being a "lying liar who lies:.

 

Thats funny....I have heard on more than one source...including the "Question of the Week" thing on RJ's website that the CoL has went to the shadow at least once in the past.

[Dagon Thyne]

If the DO wins, there will not be a world filled with disease, hunger, and strife.  He will shatter the Wheel, and time will cease to exist.  This is why all the Forsaken (other than Ishidin of course) are complete and utter fools.

 

Which is why Elan is quite possibly the greatest villain in fantasy.  It takes a lot of balls to wake up one day and decide to work against ending existance and reality its self.  Not changing it, not for personal gain, just ending it all because it's all worthless.

 

I agree with you whole-heartedly.  The whole philosophical aspect of Ishy is what makes his character the greatest in the series.  The rest of the forsaken side with the Shadow for personal gain.  Ishy just sides with him because he knows that eventually the DO WILL win.  I wonder what will happen in the end, now that he has a link with Rand.

 

I just wondering if Rand and LTT are diffetent than the past CoL. 

 

Well, I think we can put this to rest. In tGS it's pretty clear that Rand (and LTT) was reborn many-many times and was always a CoL.

 

Actually RJ said that it's a different person each team....just the same soul..it's not just LTT and Rand over and over....But I was talking about whether or not this turning could possibly be different than others..,like perhaps the pattern intends for the bettle to finally end in something other than a draw....In past turnings, the DO never got out...even when the CoL  turned to the Shadow.....So we can safely assume that this turning is already different......perhaps it is litterally the Last Battle....I mean if Rand actually kills the DO, then how is the DO going to be imprisoned for the next turning?

 

Unless of course, it's one of those Balance of good and evil things and a new DO is created to take the old one's place and a new prison is formed.

 

RJ confirmed that The Dragon has never turned to the shadow.  That was just Ishamael being a "lying liar who lies:.

 

Which of course means that the "Dragon soul" is not necessarily the CoL. Theory time ;)

 

Actually I did have a theory once that LTT was not the CoL...

 

My theory being that the CoL can only be born once per turning.....

 

My theory was that Rand, the CoL, is not LTT reborn, and that the reason LTT is in Rand's head is because the pattern kept LTT from going back into the true source, or whereever you go to be respun into the pattern after death.

 

LTT was simply the most powerful channrlor alive and his soul was placed within Rand to prepare him for TG.  Also, When Rand is killed at TG, I think it will be LTT's soul that passes on leaving Rand alive....fullfilling the "To live, you must die" prophesy, and keeping Rand promise to let LTT die at TG....

[MikeRiley]

I think RJ said that the Dark One has never won and that when the Dragon has turned to the Shadow it always ended in a draw.

 

I don't believe this is how it is, but I'd rather learn that Ishamael was the Champion of the Light and became the Betrayer of Hope, causing Lews Therin to end the age in a "draw" by sealing the Dark One away. Then he is later reborn as the next champion.

[Nightstrike]

I think RJ said that the Dark One has never won and that when the Dragon has turned to the Shadow it always ended in a draw.

Yep, that's right. "You can only lose once."

 

I don't believe this is how it is, but I'd rather learn that Ishamael was the Champion of the Light and became the Betrayer of Hope, causing Lews Therin to end the age in a "draw" by sealing the Dark One away. Then he is later reborn as the next champion.

Ishy isn't the Dragon soul. He and Rand are frequently intertwined in the Pattern, just like Birgitte & Gaidal Cain (well, maybe not "just like"...). Somehow the Bore needs to be unmade, not just patched up in a makeshift manner.

 

[MikeRiley]

I don't believe this is how it is, but I'd rather learn that Ishamael was the Champion of the Light and became the Betrayer of Hope, causing Lews Therin to end the age in a "draw" by sealing the Dark One away. Then he is later reborn as the next champion.

Ishy isn't the Dragon soul. He and Rand are frequently intertwined in the Pattern, just like Birgitte & Gaidal Cain (well, maybe not "just like"...). Somehow the Bore needs to be unmade, not just patched up in a makeshift manner.

 

 

I wasn't implying Ishamael was the Dragon, it's just a thought that he could have been the Champion of the Light. The Dragon is merely an Age of Legends title, for all we really know, Lews Therin wasn't the Light's champion. The Age of Legends Aes Sedai certainly didn't see him so. I guess it's more of a nod towards that theory that Moridin will turn good again - in which case it would fit with the Fisher King idea only with him as the Fisher King all along! Maybe I should have posted in the crazy theory thread instead.

 

But the idea here is that if Ishamael was the Champion of the Light and he was turned, then everything would end in a draw - as the Age of Legends did - neither side won. What is a draw, if not that? The Dark One must be imprisoned again or else the draw is only a temporary solution within the turning. Perhaps the third age itself is just an extra spoke in the event the draw happens? The Dragon soul would then be reborn and take over the failed Champion of the Light's task.

[Vermillion]

I have read two quotes. One stating that he's never been turned and another that he has but it ended in a draw.  Which one is true?