Who killed Janduin? (rand's dad)

[Doselan]

I don't suppose I noticed it the first readthrough, but this time it stood out to me:

 

1) Janduin went north to the blight after Shaiel (rands mom) died on dragonmount.

2) He was killed not by a trolloc, but by a young man.

3) They said the young man looked like Shaiel, so Janduin didn't raise a spear when the man ran him through.

 

This obviously isn't Rand, who is said to have Shaiel's features to his face; but could it be one of her other relatives? 

[Jon Paul]

Slayer.

[Erytmyst]

i agree with the post that answere simply slayer/lord luc

[Majsju]

As said, Slayer in his Luc-form. Luc was Tigraines (Shaiels) brother, sent to the Blight by Gitara Sedai, and killed there by Isam (Lans cousin). Isam and Luc then somehow merged to become Slayer.

[yoniy0]

and killed there by Isam

Pardon me? I remember "One did live, one did die", but nothing was said about one of them killing the other, was there?

[DemandredFO]

Do we know that Isam killed Luc, that's likely what happened but do we know for sure?

[Jon Paul]

Do we know that Isam killed Luc, that's likely what happened but do we know for sure?

 

I don't think one really "killed" the other.  I think this is simply a case of the fact that the two cannot exist at the same time, one has to be the dominate personality/body at any given time, in more poetic terms.

[Doselan]

How very very interesting.  Slayer is quite a bit more involved in the story as a whole than I thought he was.  And what's up with him hiding in the Tower of Genji?

[Crael123]

why did slayer kill rands dad though?

[Doselan]

I would imagine just because he felt like it.  It seems to me that Slayer just kills for the joy of killing.  Though somebody else may have a more interesting theory.

[Thor]

Ooh I don't know, you are working for some dark menacing boss. Some guy who has no will of living comes charging in killing your minions left right centre.

 

What do you do?

 

a) Kill the intruder

b) Join him

c) Sit back and laugh

[Majsju]

How very very interesting.  Slayer is quite a bit more involved in the story as a whole than I thought he was.  And what's up with him hiding in the Tower of Genji?

 

We do not know if he has anything to do with the TOG, or if he just tricked Perrin into believing that, hoping Perrin would enter and get stuck.

[Sid]

We do not know if he has anything to do with the TOG, or if he just tricked Perrin into believing that, hoping Perrin would enter and get stuck.

 

Thanks to Birgitte.  I never noticed before, but her innocent little conversation with Perrin to divert his attention from foolishly trying to follow Slayer into the TOG basically saved the light's chances.

 

I never understood why Hopper couldn't see her though.

[Luckers]

I never understood why Hopper couldn't see her though.

 

Because she didn't want him too. The Heroes can do this--there are hints that Gaidal is around several times when Nynaeve and Elayne can't see him.

[LemonPastie]

I never understood why Hopper couldn't see her though.

 

Because she didn't want him too. The Heroes can do this--there are hints that Gaidal is around several times when Nynaeve and Elayne can't see him.

 

I always got the idea that Hopper knew the precepts too and just refused to see her, like Gaidal refused to see the girls when we see him chat with Bridget

[Luckers]

Nah. We see times when Gaidal makes his presence known to Birgitte when the girls can't see him.

 

Besides, Hopper seems genuinely perplexed and doubtful. He speaks freely of his opinion of her words--and I think if he were just refusing to respond to the issue from respect for the precepts he would have simply refused to talk about it.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

I don't think one really "killed" the other.  I think this is simply a case of the fact that the two cannot exist at the same time, one has to be the dominate personality/body at any given time, in more poetic terms.

 

I don't know if this has been dealt with elsewhere (it probably has so I'll just brace myself for being told so) but I absolutely do think that Isam killed Luc as part of the process of becoming Slayer.  I think that Slayer is what happens when the Dark One transmigrates a soul into a body without removing its previous occupant.  Both minds are always somewhat present, but the mind of the current physical form has a degree of dominance due to the physiological factors involved in personality.  The change in body can only be made by passing into or out of Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh because that place allows the mind to shape matter, and the change sticks upon leaving because either body is "valid" since both souls occupy it.  Therefore he/they/it can choose which one applies.  The observed effectiveness of an assassin with Slayer's abilities is more than sufficient to demonstrate the Dark One's motive in creating him/them/it.

 

Anyway, that's my opinion.  Isam kills Luc, at Ishamael's instruction, to facilitate the process of getting two souls into one body.

 

And I personally doubt that killing Janduin was random, although I freely admit it could well have been.  Slayer doesn't really need a reason to kill.  It would be a pretty big coincidence, but certainly not the biggest one we've seen.  All hail Deus Ex Ta'veren.

[yoniy0]

First off, remember Egwene's injuries from paying her toh to the WO? She made them disappear when she entered tel'aran'rhiod (in the flesh), but they returned when she exited.

Secondly, the transmigrated Forsaken have no ability to return to their original physical form. They can all manipulate tel'aran'rhiod.

Last but not least, even if we accept your premise, what reason is there to assume Isam killed Luc and not the other way around?

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

First off, remember Egwene's injuries from paying her toh to the WO? She made them disappear when she entered tel'aran'rhiod (in the flesh), but they returned when she exited.

 

She only has one physical form, since she only has one soul.  I'm speculating that Slayer can make the change stick because he has two souls.  That is what I meant when I said that "the change sticks upon leaving because either body is 'valid' since both souls occupy it."

 

Secondly, the transmigrated Forsaken have no ability to return to their original physical form. They can all manipulate tel'aran'rhiod

 

Again, one body, one soul.  The mechanism for making the change stick is having two equally "valid" souls.  Slayer can't make himself into anything he wants when he comes out of Tel'aran'rhiod, but he has two forms to pick from, because the "reality" of Tel'aran'rhiod recognizes two souls.

 

I think that "something" in Tel'aran'rhiod recognizes which body comes with which soul, and so to get two options, you have to have two souls.

 

Last but not least, even if we accept your premise, what reason is there to assume Isam killed Luc and not the other way around?

 

Because we have no indications of Luc being a Darkfriend before leaving Andor, but Isam is the son of Breyan, who was captured by Trollocs in the fall of Malkier.  Isam was an infant at the time, and was "never seen again", which almost certainly means that Isam was raised in the Blight, probably by Ishamael or someone designated by Ishamael.  See the history of Breyan and Isam in TEoTW ch 47.

[yoniy0]

First off, remember Egwene's injuries from paying her toh to the WO? She made them disappear when she entered tel'aran'rhiod (in the flesh), but they returned when she exited.

She only has one physical form, since she only has one soul.  I'm speculating that Slayer can make the change stick because he has two souls.  That is what I meant when I said that "the change sticks upon leaving because either body is 'valid' since both souls occupy it."

Okay, I don't agree, but your point is valid.

 

Last but not least, even if we accept your premise, what reason is there to assume Isam killed Luc and not the other way around?

Because we have no indications of Luc being a Darkfriend before leaving Andor, but Isam is the son of Breyan, who was captured by Trollocs in the fall of Malkier.  Isam was an infant at the time, and was "never seen again", which almost certainly means that Isam was raised in the Blight, probably by Ishamael or someone designated by Ishamael.

That has no bearing on this issue. Transmigrating someone shouldn't make them a Darkfriend. If anything, I'd say that the DO shouldn't be able to transmigrate anyone who didn't already swear his soul to the Shadow, making it LESS likely that Luc was the one transmigrated.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

Okay, I don't agree, but your point is valid.

 

Fair enough, as I said, it is only my speculative opinion.

 

That has no bearing on this issue. Transmigrating someone shouldn't make them a Darkfriend.  If anything, I'd say that the DO shouldn't be able to transmigrate anyone who didn't already swear his soul to the Shadow, making it LESS likely that Luc was the one transmigrated.

 

To quote Kari al'Thor:

 

"The Lord of the Grave is stronger than he once was, my son ... The Father of Lies has a honeyed tongue for unwary souls."

 

The Dark One apparently has greater power to convince/convert souls after they are dead.  Since the original killing would have to be done by one who was converted in life, and we know that Isam basically had to be raised as a servant of the Dark One, it seems more likely that he would be the one doing the killing.

 

Also, the Trollocs show an odd attachment to Isam by name in the Two Rivers.  It may even be that Isam was raised among Trollocs!

[OptimusPrime]

Slayers changes are permanent because he goes there in the flesh.

 

Another reason to believe that Isam is the one that lived is that the Shadow-well, Moridin and a bunch of Trollocs at least-call Slayer Isam. When Slayer was posing as Luc in the Two Rivers (and encountering Perrin as Isam in T'A'R) the Trollocs shout Isam, even though it is Luc in the Two Rivers in the real world. Now Trollocs being Trollocs would probably call you the name of the person you look like anyway, but in a certain Forsaken meeting Moridin states that Isam has been sent against the renegade aka Fain; Isam, not Luc. Now again you could put his instability at fault for a mistake if you wished, but I doubt that both Trollocs AND Moridin would make that mistake the only two times we see the Shadow speak of Slayer onscreen. You might even say the Luc/Isam thing might be a top secret thing among the Shadow, known only to a couple of people who were about at the time, which might easily have onvolved both Ishamael and Fain but not the other Forsaken, but seeing as there was a dark prophecy about Luc and Isam it seems a bit pointless to keep that from people like the others. Not to mention that Slayer also notes that the Chosen know where to find him, not just Ishamael/Moridin.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

Slayers changes are permanent because he goes there in the flesh.

 

As yoniy0 quite accurately pointed out, going to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh alone is not enough to make the changes that occur in Tel'aran'rhiod stay in place when a person comes back out.  Egwene went to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, and when she came back out, changes she had made to her own body while there did not continue with her.

 

The only difference between Slayer and all the other people we have seen with the ability to enter Tel'aran'rhiod, in the flesh or not, is that Slayer has two souls inhabiting one body.  And he is the only one with the ability to choose from one of two bodies, when entering or exiting Tel'aran'rhiod.

[Ozzie_aiel]

I don't think one really "killed" the other.  I think this is simply a case of the fact that the two cannot exist at the same time, one has to be the dominate personality/body at any given time, in more poetic terms.

 

I don't know if this has been dealt with elsewhere (it probably has so I'll just brace myself for being told so) but I absolutely do think that Isam killed Luc as part of the process of becoming Slayer.  I think that Slayer is what happens when the Dark One transmigrates a soul into a body without removing its previous occupant.  Both minds are always somewhat present, but the mind of the current physical form has a degree of dominance due to the physiological factors involved in personality.  The change in body can only be made by passing into or out of Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh because that place allows the mind to shape matter, and the change sticks upon leaving because either body is "valid" since both souls occupy it.  Therefore he/they/it can choose which one applies.  The observed effectiveness of an assassin with Slayer's abilities is more than sufficient to demonstrate the Dark One's motive in creating him/them/it.

 

Anyway, that's my opinion.  Isam kills Luc, at Ishamael's instruction, to facilitate the process of getting two souls into one body.

 

And I personally doubt that killing Janduin was random, although I freely admit it could well have been.  Slayer doesn't really need a reason to kill.  It would be a pretty big coincidence, but certainly not the biggest one we've seen.  All hail Deus Ex Ta'veren.

 

I think Isam and Luc can exist in the real world at the same time. In TSR (i think) Luc leads a group of Two Rivers folk to tell the Whiteclaoks they aint welsome, but someone had to tell the Fades to ambush Perrins party.

 

As for Lus/slayer killing Rands biological dad, its about as random as the only two-rivers man to leave, meet the future queen (Morgase knew the Two Rivers accent from somewhere), join an army, become a blademaster and find a new-born on the slopes of Dragonmount.

 

I think that Janduin had to die, his role in the story was finished. If he somehow survived, he may have gotten the idea to search for his lost son.

[Jon Paul]

its about as random as the only two-rivers man to leave/quote]

 

There is no evidence that Tam is the only man to ever leave the Two Rivers.

 

meet the future queen (Morgase knew the Two Rivers accent from somewhere)

 

And the evidence for that being Tam is weak.