The Subtleties of Cadsuane

[csarmi]

I also didn't say serve the Tower but if she suddenly finds AS to be so incompetent why then over the course of the hundreds of years of her life did choose not to do something about it when it could have mattered?

 

We don't have enough information to figure that out. She might have tried when she was younger, for all we know. She might have gone to hiding to avoid being killed by the Black Ajah. Honestly, why does it matter? What's your point? You don't seem to have any point that's backed up by facts, now, do you?

 

[farthammer]

Well a big part of the discussion is talking about her character.  In my experience being apart of an organization where loyalty is important, to me if someone walks away from it, especially when it needs good people, I don't have too much fondness for those sorts of people.  This is the way I view Cadsuane, largely because of the parts in her POV where she recognizes similarities to someone like Semirhage.  She is different in important ways, but I do not like that kind of person.  I think that's a justified as trying to build her up as some kind of heroine.  She's flawed, like Rand was, I think she can redeem herself,  But she's not some savior here.

 

You don't seem to have any point that's backed up by facts, now, do you?

 

But I do.  I figured I didn't have to cut and paste parts of her POV straight from the book.  Do you want me to do this for you?

[Tollieman]

My Dad told me 'bullies are bad'. Tam said she's a bully.

 

 

 

 

Good enough for me  ;D !

[csarmi]

But I do.  I figured I didn't have to cut and paste parts of her POV straight from the book.  Do you want me to do this for you?

 

No need, I suppose. I see your points now. Not much to argue about what you just said. The fact of 'walking away' is a big plus in my eyes and a big minus in yours, that's where the differences lie, I guess.

[Senexx]

I don't fault the logic of the OP.

 

By that logic though you would be wrong to permaban Cadsuane if she was on the board and you will fail to learn a lesson that you may actually need to.

 

Indeed there is method in Cadsuane's madness but we can only see it when we know her goals.  How are her interactions with someone of no importance and inconsequential?  Do we know?

[Senexx]

Has anyone else noticed that by the logic of the first post this is how relationships play out?  As in romantic relationships.

 

The training of the partner with weird mind games incomprehensible to anyone but the person doing the "training".

 

Or am I imagining this?

[Luckers]

With the Balefire incident, she should have at least said to Rand what her logic was, rather than immediately slapping him. That would have given Rand a chance to consider her reasons for forbidding it, and also a chance for Rand to say why.  As time was short, a simple "We'll discuss this later boy" followed by the discussion after the incident would have helped. Even better would have been for her to consider the possibility that Rand had a reason for using it, or knew something she didn't. Followed by asking for his logic in using Balefire.

 

She states the problems with the methodology you suggest. "He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

She wasn't just bullying for the sake of bullying. She had thought on this, and she had reasons for choosing the path she took.

That quote, however, was from WH, while I agree that by that time that is what was needed, I do not believe that it would have been needed if she had taken my methodology from the beginning.

 

How about from the Wise Ones in tPoD?

 

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again."

 

Same concept. Stated 17 days after Rand first met Cadsuane. Or did Rand change in that time?

 

I also pointed out Cadsuane testing him on this, and Rand's reaction, and made other detailed arguments on why a Moiraine technique would not have work--even for Moiraine, even before the Tower kidnapped him.

 

She handled him wrong. When she was first introduced taking a Moiraine approach - telling him what he must know, whether he wants it or not - would still have worked. The quote you use to say it wouldn't is from TGS which is quite a distance from when she was first introduced.

 

Mmm. I may be mistake, but I believe I detailed my position on utilizing a 'Moiraine technique' with considerably more than one quote. Including, but not limited to, pointing out that she did test his response to her having information about his problems during their first meeting. He freaked.

The Moiraine technique you detailed mainly dealt with Moiraine doing exactly what was told of her. You mentioned only once about Moiraines previous technique of telling him what he needed to hear whether he wanted to or not.

 

Now during the first meeting. Cadsuane approached this in such a way as to deliberately to put him off balance. She "swept in immediately right after" she had been announced. Aes Sedai sweeping in, ended with him in a box alst time. Although she couldn't know this, it seems irresponsible to start off a relationship by trying to put them off balance.

 

This then cuased Allana and Merana's outburst "You mustn't harm him!". Which caused near panic for everyone in the room. Cadsuane must have at least suspected that her reputation, coupled with her having dealt with channelling men before would cause a reaction like this. So naturally Rand was already very off balance.

 

She then proceeded to insult Moiraine - who has enourmous significance for Rand, being the first name on the list, as well as someone he respected enoumously. "I would have thought that even a child such as Moiraine". Yes, Rand was rude, but so was she. If she treats someone rudely and deliberately off-balances them, what else can she expect.

 

Then she detailed what she had done before to men who could channel "Some fought to the bitter end kicking and screaming...", which sent Rand's anger over the edge - anger she had deliberately cultivated. What other reaction from someone whose only impression of her had been as I've detailed?

 

She bullied him from the word go. What does she expect to see from a man whose first impression of her is as a bully?

 

What she did was push him from an angle he didn't expect in order to learn what he was made of. And she did learn. Her deductions were spot on, and backed up by the Wise Ones--who experienced the exact same problems irrespective of performing a test like Cadsuane's.

 

In effect, Rand would have needed to be delt with that way whether Cadsuane first appeared as a bully, or offering candy. This way Cadsuane knew what she was dealing with, knew the path she needed to take. She took it. She succeeded. He's better.

 

I refer you to my original post. I'm more than willing to discuss my arguments upon this, contained therein.

 

My original response was more about things that I hadn't seen discussed at any great length in your post - hence I didn't quote it. You touched briefly on the Moiraine style I was talking about, but with only one quote about it, it didn't seem necessary to quote it. The rest of the discussion about Moiraines style was a different style to the one my post discusses, so I didn't quote that either. I do always try to quote peoples posts, but only when I am directly addressing a specific point contained in it.

 

Feel free to explain clearly how my discussion of why the submissive style Moiraine utilized would not work, and why you thereby dismissed them and spoke as if I'd only briefly touched upon the issue--but it seems disengenuos to me for you to simply say that I did and leave it at that. I put considerable effort into that subject, and I would like to know what I missed, rather than you simply act like I did nothing.

This is shown through Min's reveal, which is just a reminder really of Moiraine's revelation:

 

Quote

"This is what we all get," Min said, "for assuming we can make him do what we want"

 

(Their emphasis, not mine)

 

Min was correct, of course. Rand's complete break was what they got from trying to make him do what they want. Of course that was exactly what needed to happen. What Cadsuane knew would happen. Re-read my first post. I cover this in detail.

 

And my post was detailing why it didn't need to happen, if Cadsuane had taken a different approach. I agree entirely, that given the approach Cadsuane took it would have to come to that; I just dispute that it was inevitable that it should have come to that from before Cadsuane even stepped in front of Rand. Min's quote (and Moiraines similar revelation) show clearly how if Cadsuane had taken a different approach, Rand would never have become as bad as he was. In other words: Rand wouldn't need to have been broken in such a fashion if Cadsuane's approach had been different from the start.

 

No, they don't. It's quite clear Rand was heading there before he met Cadsuane--he was counting women who had died, not trusting anyone, erupting in rages. Cadsuane's methodology, resulting from her initial testing of Rand's mental state, was the only method that would reach his core. Anything else would have flowed off the hard exterior.

 

Min's quote only shows the danger of that approach, not that the other would succeed. I covered in detail why I think it would not. Feel free to address it.

But in effect Cadsuane made him do what she wanted. He broke with his old self without breaking. She got, as Min stated, precisely what she asked for.

See above: It could have been done differently, without having to go to such extremes.

 

Explain to me how, with reference to my comments on why it wouldn't work.

Thirdly, Cadsuanes approach is very uncommunicative. She doesn't tell or even show him the reasons why she tries to stop him doing something. She just punishes him. And one huge theme of this series, is that when people don't communicate, things go wrong.

 

She tested him first before choosing that approach. She states her deductions to Verin as I cited above. I agree with her conclusions, and detailed that above.

As I have outlined above, in her first meeting she had already chosen the bullying approach. The conclusions she drew were based on the behaviour of rand. But Rand could not have behaved any differently given her way of supposedly testing him. Her conclusions being correct relies on her data about Rand being unflawed. Yet her data about Rand is flawed as his reaction is the one any reasonable person should have seen as inevitable.

 

Sure he could have. He could've retained his cool instead of errupting. He could had not reacted to her knowing things about his weaknesses with fear and rage.

 

And no, her data about Rand was spot on. The Wise One's state the exact same conclusion, and they never bullied him. Her test provided her a shortcut to understanding. It did not pave a path necessitating only to a forceful education. Rand's inner personality did that.

I am more than willing to discuss my thoughts, if you could be specific in addressing them?

I have done so in this post, and I've already explained above why most last post didn't quote specific passages.

 

I am unsatisified. You stated that I only provided a brief coverage of something that I went into detail about. The requirement is on you to explain that specifically--why does my coverage not touch on your point--or remove the comment.

[Dream]

Defining Cadsuane

 

Some posters apparently hate Cadsuane with a vengeance. Some posters, like Luckers, think she is great. My own position is somewhere in-between. I can't stand her as a person but I do respect her as a character.

 

Cadsuane the person

 

She has an aggressive, abusive nature that I'm sure few people can appreciate. I am not one of them. In my opinion, she has taken the worst possible approach with Rand. Her forceful approach has alienated Rand from the beginning. Were it not for Min's Viewing that Cadsuane would teach Rand (and the Asha'man) something they would not like, he would have banished her long ago. Rand's resentment is so strong he even questions Min's Viewing on a few occasions.

 

On the other hand, Cadsuane is not without merit. She has been instrumental in protecting Rand from harm and even rescuing him when needed. And although her biting criticism offends Rand, and pretty much everyone else, what she says is true. She is highly intelligent and possesses a wealth of knowledge. There is alot of value in what she says. Unfortunately, her delivery tends to obscure the message.

 

I've always felt she made a fantastic bodyguard but a horrid mentor. She is capable, but flawed.

 

Cadsuane the Aes Sedai

 

Luckers tries to separate Cadsuane from the Aes Sedai with the contention that Aes Sedai are simply meddlesome while Cadsuane is goal-oriented. Where the other Aes Sedai are prone to actions without reason, and apparently without thought, Cadsuane acts for a greater purpose. But are any actions truly without purpose? Would it be fair to say that Aes Sedai in general go around and "meddle" just for the fun of it? Of course not. In fact, their purpose is easily traced to the Ajah they represent.

 

The difference Luckers points out is not that Aes Sedai are meddlesome while Cadsuane is not, but rather Aes Sedai are incompetent while Cadsuane is effective. I disagree with the generalisation. Suffice it to say, not all Aes Sedai are incompetent--many have done good deeds and are respected for their actions--and not all of Cadsuane's efforts are successful.

 

For me, the pervading characteristic of Aes Sedai is the desire for control. Power, knowledge, influence. Whichever route they take, Aes Sedai show an uncanny aversion to sharing. Control is very important to every Aes Sedai. Cadsuane is no different. She rarely ever shares her knowledge, giving others tasks without explaining why. She has an entourage of Aes Sedai and often berates them to maintain her superiority. In this light, Cadsuane is in fact the prototypical Aes Sedai.

 

Cadsuane the Green

 

Which leads to how I would define Cadsuane. She is the epitome of a Green. Her stated goal in life is to reach the Last Battle (and help win it supposedly). All of her efforts are directed to this goal. It should not be surprising that she is most effective in the midst of action. Advising and mentoring are not her strong points, there is no hint of Grey in the this Green. Engaging in battle is her purpose. Whatever else she might be, bully or advisor, monster or saviour, first and foremost she is a warrior.

 

[Val Mickey]

Very good arguments there Dream. And though I would lynch Luckers on general principle, I agree with him here.

 

Cadsuane is an old-fashioned AS, and AS are bullies - certainly in RJ's world all women are. While AS may not meddle without reason, they certainly take charge without giving one or having one - which Cadsuane has not (with Rand). And Cadsuane is generally more successful than any other AS, because she has Rand's interests at heart. (She said so. And Verin has probably cleared her as not of the BA). And her delivery style has obviously worked on gentled men.

 

Was she successful? Partially, till events outpaced her with Semirhage and the Domination Band. (Now that's a good name for a rock group). Would Moirane have succeeded in her place? I'm inclined to think she'd have about the same middling success.

 

A honey and stick approach might be the most effective - a la Elayne and Nynaeve. Or Moirane and Cadsuane. :)

[farthammer]

I think you would have an argument there but take a look at Tam, Thom, Bryne, Lan, and so on.  For many of the characters you could describe as RJ trying to portray that, there is a counterbalance that exposes the flaws of such people or their actions (Tam and Cadsuane in this case).

 

I think it has something to do with the choices Rand has made in regards to who he surrounds himself with.  He started out very worried he would wind up killing those close to him, until he whittled down the people that really matter to him down to the smallest number possible.  Cadsuane does not have to be there because Rand could have chosen Tam as a confidant this entire time.

[gambril]

Excellent post Luckers.  The first time I came to see Cadsuane as different was when she told Rand straight up that what she would do would be for him, not for the White Tower or any other reason.  That's the first time I took a step back and started really analyzing Cadsuane.  The only other Aes Sedai to have this realiztion and implement it was Moiraine.  You could say Verin as well, but she is so subtle and sneaky that lets leave her out of it.  You might be able to argue and throw Elayne and Nynaeve in there as well, but I'm not so sure since they're tied to Egwene and so far they've been nothing but her lapdogs when she calls them to heel.

 

Anyways, I love Cadsuane for the simple fact that the White Tower means squat to her when it comes to Rand, which in essence is what it truly means to be an Aes Sedai.  To serve the world and not serve the White Tower and it's machinations.  Add to that the fact that, as Luckers mentioned, she treats Aes Sedai no matter their standing in the ridiculous Aes Sedai power heirachy how they should be treated regardless of where they stand. She reinforces other Aes Sedai's (Samitsu, Daigan) strengths when they're down on themself and points out what they need to work on (Nynaeve) and disregards the imbeciles (Beldeine). She is far from incomptent and in a lot of ways a true Aes Sedai because she's serving the world by trying to make Rand a better leader in order for the world to survive and give the world the best chance for survival.  I am curious however on her motivations for her embroidery project (ancient Aes Sedai symbol).  Does she mean or see that Asha'man and Aes Sedai need to join together and become as one for victory?

[Lambada]

With the Balefire incident, she should have at least said to Rand what her logic was, rather than immediately slapping him. That would have given Rand a chance to consider her reasons for forbidding it, and also a chance for Rand to say why.  As time was short, a simple "We'll discuss this later boy" followed by the discussion after the incident would have helped. Even better would have been for her to consider the possibility that Rand had a reason for using it, or knew something she didn't. Followed by asking for his logic in using Balefire.

 

She states the problems with the methodology you suggest. "He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

She wasn't just bullying for the sake of bullying. She had thought on this, and she had reasons for choosing the path she took.

That quote, however, was from WH, while I agree that by that time that is what was needed, I do not believe that it would have been needed if she had taken my methodology from the beginning.

 

How about from the Wise Ones in tPoD?

 

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again."

 

Same concept. Stated 17 days after Rand first met Cadsuane. Or did Rand change in that time?

 

And Rand does not trust the Wise Ones to the degree he should either. Sure, he respects them, but that is not the same. Why? Because like Cadsuane and most Aes Sedai they don't explain, but expect.

 

Try looking at Annoura. He first met her two days before Cadsuane showed up. She was 'advising' Colavere after taking the Sun Throne. He treated her respectably once he knew who she was and why she was there. Why? Because she showed him respect and courtesy. She answered his questions, and even volunteered some information. Rand allowed her near him, during audiences with Berelain. I have no doubt that had she not been Berelain's adviser, Rand would have listened honestly to her advice. I quote Rand himself now from his Annoura meeting - "I don't think every Aes Sedai is my enemy, not entirely, but I won't be schemed against, and I won't be manipulated". Annoura was honest and truthful in answering his questions, and thus he did not send her to the Wise Ones. Cadsuane did manipulate him, thus from step one he already thought she was an enemy.

 

I also pointed out Cadsuane testing him on this, and Rand's reaction, and made other detailed arguments on why a Moiraine technique would not have work--even for Moiraine, even before the Tower kidnapped him.

Cadsuane only tested giving him knowledge in the first meeting - which as I have previously detailed was done in such a way as to put him off balance thus her testing was invalid. I shall deal with Moiraine below.

She handled him wrong. When she was first introduced taking a Moiraine approach - telling him what he must know, whether he wants it or not - would still have worked. The quote you use to say it wouldn't is from TGS which is quite a distance from when she was first introduced.

 

Mmm. I may be mistake, but I believe I detailed my position on utilizing a 'Moiraine technique' with considerably more than one quote. Including, but not limited to, pointing out that she did test his response to her having information about his problems during their first meeting. He freaked.

The Moiraine technique you detailed mainly dealt with Moiraine doing exactly what was told of her. You mentioned only once about Moiraines previous technique of telling him what he needed to hear whether he wanted to or not.

 

Now during the first meeting. Cadsuane approached this in such a way as to deliberately to put him off balance. She "swept in immediately right after" she had been announced. Aes Sedai sweeping in, ended with him in a box alst time. Although she couldn't know this, it seems irresponsible to start off a relationship by trying to put them off balance.

 

This then cuased Allana and Merana's outburst "You mustn't harm him!". Which caused near panic for everyone in the room. Cadsuane must have at least suspected that her reputation, coupled with her having dealt with channelling men before would cause a reaction like this. So naturally Rand was already very off balance.

 

She then proceeded to insult Moiraine - who has enourmous significance for Rand, being the first name on the list, as well as someone he respected enoumously. "I would have thought that even a child such as Moiraine". Yes, Rand was rude, but so was she. If she treats someone rudely and deliberately off-balances them, what else can she expect.

 

Then she detailed what she had done before to men who could channel "Some fought to the bitter end kicking and screaming...", which sent Rand's anger over the edge - anger she had deliberately cultivated. What other reaction from someone whose only impression of her had been as I've detailed?

 

She bullied him from the word go. What does she expect to see from a man whose first impression of her is as a bully?

 

What she did was push him from an angle he didn't expect in order to learn what he was made of. And she did learn. Her deductions were spot on, and backed up by the Wise Ones--who experienced the exact same problems irrespective of performing a test like Cadsuane's.

As I mentioned above, the Wise Ones also did not try frank honestness. Flawed test data leads to flawed conclusions. Cadsuanes honestness was delievered only after setting him off balance. Meaning it isn't a fair test.  You will notice that Rhuarc has alwasy been frank - and he has always been one of Rands most trusted followers. Two independant tests flawed in the same way (specifically laking the plain honesty approach) will naturally agree - but that still means their conclusions are still invalid.

 

In effect, Rand would have needed to be delt with that way whether Cadsuane first appeared as a bully, or offering candy. This way Cadsuane knew what she was dealing with, knew the path she needed to take. She took it. She succeeded. He's better.

I feel I have shown, with the help of Annoura, that neither bullying nor candy was needed. Just frank honestness. She took a path down the only route that her flawed data showed, and although she succeeded, it was far more harsh on everybody than it needed to be.

 

I refer you to my original post. I'm more than willing to discuss my arguments upon this, contained therein.

 

My original response was more about things that I hadn't seen discussed at any great length in your post - hence I didn't quote it. You touched briefly on the Moiraine style I was talking about, but with only one quote about it, it didn't seem necessary to quote it. The rest of the discussion about Moiraines style was a different style to the one my post discusses, so I didn't quote that either. I do always try to quote peoples posts, but only when I am directly addressing a specific point contained in it.

 

Feel free to explain clearly how my discussion of why the submissive style Moiraine utilized would not work, and why you thereby dismissed them and spoke as if I'd only briefly touched upon the issue--but it seems disengenuos to me for you to simply say that I did and leave it at that. I put considerable effort into that subject, and I would like to know what I missed, rather than you simply act like I did nothing.

I felt I had already adressed this, but let me try it in a different manner.

 

There are 3 kinds of Moiraine control:

1) "The Wheel weaves style" - which is how she was when we first met her

2) The Moiraine who told Rand Frankly and Honestly about things (e.g. her discussion with him on Balefire).

3) The Moiraine who spoke only when Rand let her (e.g. when Rand told her "later Moiraine" / Saidar style).

 

While 1 would have been totally ineffective, 2 still got through to Rand - as Annoura recently showed. as for 3 I agree this was ineffective.

The way I have been reading your post is that it was focussed almost entirely on style 3, whilst I have been meaning style 2. Hence why I didn't speccifically counter issues in your Moiraine section as my arguemtments weren;t so much specific counter arguments, but rather a more general - "Hey, you missed out this style of control".

 

I trust this has cleared this up.

 

This is shown through Min's reveal, which is just a reminder really of Moiraine's revelation:

 

Quote

"This is what we all get," Min said, "for assuming we can make him do what we want"

 

(Their emphasis, not mine)

 

Min was correct, of course. Rand's complete break was what they got from trying to make him do what they want. Of course that was exactly what needed to happen. What Cadsuane knew would happen. Re-read my first post. I cover this in detail.

 

And my post was detailing why it didn't need to happen, if Cadsuane had taken a different approach. I agree entirely, that given the approach Cadsuane took it would have to come to that; I just dispute that it was inevitable that it should have come to that from before Cadsuane even stepped in front of Rand. Min's quote (and Moiraines similar revelation) show clearly how if Cadsuane had taken a different approach, Rand would never have become as bad as he was. In other words: Rand wouldn't need to have been broken in such a fashion if Cadsuane's approach had been different from the start.

 

No, they don't. It's quite clear Rand was heading there before he met Cadsuane--he was counting women who had died, not trusting anyone, erupting in rages. Cadsuane's methodology, resulting from her initial testing of Rand's mental state, was the only method that would reach his core. Anything else would have flowed off the hard exterior.

 

Min's quote only shows the danger of that approach, not that the other would succeed. I covered in detail why I think it would not. Feel free to address it.

As Annoura showed he was not at the point where Cadsuanes approach was inevitable. Yes he had the list, but he still trusted Rhuarc (as well as Perrin), and he only erupted in rages when someone tried to maniputlae him. He didn't rage at Annoura or even Colavere. Cadsuanes chosen method was based on her flawed initial testing. Frank Honesty would have worked had Cadsuane not deliberatly put him off balance.

If Cadsuane had acted as Annoura had, I doubt that her honesty about his future would have caused his rage.

 

I have to disagree about Min's quote, and I feel I have covered in detail why another approach would have worked. I don't quite get why you felt I hadn't addressed it... the only new thing in my post so far has really been Annoura for a specific, time appropriate example.

 

But in effect Cadsuane made him do what she wanted. He broke with his old self without breaking. She got, as Min stated, precisely what she asked for.

See above: It could have been done differently, without having to go to such extremes.

 

Explain to me how, with reference to my comments on why it wouldn't work.

Again, I don't quite know why you don't feel as if I'd addressed it. So See Above.

Thirdly, Cadsuanes approach is very uncommunicative. She doesn't tell or even show him the reasons why she tries to stop him doing something. She just punishes him. And one huge theme of this series, is that when people don't communicate, things go wrong.

 

She tested him first before choosing that approach. She states her deductions to Verin as I cited above. I agree with her conclusions, and detailed that above.

As I have outlined above, in her first meeting she had already chosen the bullying approach. The conclusions she drew were based on the behaviour of rand. But Rand could not have behaved any differently given her way of supposedly testing him. Her conclusions being correct relies on her data about Rand being unflawed. Yet her data about Rand is flawed as his reaction is the one any reasonable person should have seen as inevitable.

 

Sure he could have. He could've retained his cool instead of errupting. He could had not reacted to her knowing things about his weaknesses with fear and rage.

I feel I showed precisisly why his rage was inevitable given her style of testing. As I have already shown, if she had not put him off-balance then he would not ahve reacted the way he did. I really don't get why you don't see that biased input gives a biased output.

And no, her data about Rand was spot on. The Wise One's state the exact same conclusion, and they never bullied him. Her test provided her a shortcut to understanding. It did not pave a path necessitating only to a forceful education. Rand's inner personality did that.

I've addresed the data numerous times already - she did not try simple honesty with him, without trying to put him off balance first. The WO's never frankly explained anything. They expected that he would do as they 'asked', and sniffed and spied (Listneing in with Moiraine, "This is wise Ones business") until they got their way.

I am more than willing to discuss my thoughts, if you could be specific in addressing them?

I have done so in this post, and I've already explained above why most last post didn't quote specific passages.

 

I am unsatisified. You stated that I only provided a brief coverage of something that I went into detail about. The requirement is on you to explain that specifically--why does my coverage not touch on your point--or remove the comment.

I trust my different way of explaining the Moiraine issue has resolved this. If I was unclear the first time, then that was my fault - it is kind of hard to see how words can be interpreted differently when you already know what you mean.

[The Fisher King]

Im afraid I am forced to say that this was an excellent dissertation by Luckers on this. Those that like Cadsuane are definitely in the minority - and I will never understand why.

 

Yes, she can be a bully. One common trait in this series has been that almost ALL of the characters in power seem to be bullies, yet I see plenty of THEM among the fandom's list of faves.

 

Like Lucker's says...at least Cadsuane only bullies when she NEEDS to.

 

Her pyschological analysis of most of those around her is usually far, far shrewder than most of her amazingly clueless companions throughout the series. Rand's head was growing FAR too big at that point to listen to Moiraine at that point. Also, her ''Awe Factor'' of being an Aes Sedai was wearing off on Rand. He was seeing her more and more as just another woman who needed to set aside to keep out of harm's way.

 

Cadusane was much, much different in her approach to Rand - but I maintain that it was what Rand needed at that point.

 

Plus, you have to look at all the good she has done. Shes been amazing, despite her flaws.

 

- Fish

 

If Cadsuane only truly was motivated by self-interest then she would ONLY see Rand as The Dragon Reborn - the tool to win The Last Battle. But, we see countless examples of Cadsuane caring about Rand the person.

 

As tragic as Moiraine's ''death'' was, I always felt like the time she had left to influence Rand was nearing its end very quickly. Moiraine herself realized this.

[Charlz Fel]

Amen, Luckers.  I love Cadsuane.

[Shimmer]

@Dream - my thoughts exactly.  :D

[FarShainMael]

I am curious however on her motivations for her embroidery project (ancient Aes Sedai symbol).  Does she mean or see that Asha'man and Aes Sedai need to join together and become as one for victory?

 

Didn't the Aelfinn tell Rand that 'the two must be as one'?

 

 

 

[lilltempest]

I am curious however on her motivations for her embroidery project (ancient Aes Sedai symbol).  Does she mean or see that Asha'man and Aes Sedai need to join together and become as one for victory?

 

The only way Cadsuane would allow the Asha'man and the Aes Sedai to "join together" is with the Asha'man subservient to the Aes Sedai. Much like Egwene, she has no intention of allowing the Asha'man the courtesy of being treated as equals to the women...they must be bonded and be forced to obey the women. End of story. That said...

 

I read this entire thread and, as usual, disagree with Luckers (and anyone else who thinks Cadsuane had the right and the excuse to treat Rand like crap). Cadsuane is like a burr in a horse's saddle - she is irritating to the point of distraction. She is completely untouchable (God-mode ter'angreal, anyone?), everyone ends up submitting to her or cooperating with her (like the Wise Ones), and no one ever stands up to her (save Tam). She is nothing but a bully, albeit one intelligent enough to know when she has encountered someone who will not be bullied the 'normal' way (like the Wise Ones, who would not put up with her trying to push them around). No one in his or her right mind would put up with this woman's attitude. I wouldn't have lasted three minutes around her before I either kicked the crap out of her (age be damned) or had her removed from my presence and dared her to show her face again. She may have good intentions for the world, but she is a horrible excuse for a human being and being around her would be as pleasant as having every hair on your body yanked out by the root...one by one. As for how she treated Rand...

 

I have always been a firm believer that her reasons for setting out to break Rand (and that has, indeed, been her goal since the first day she swept into his world, insulting him and being an all-out bitch) was the same reason that the armed services go about breaking young boys who join - to turn him into her perfect, obedient soldier. In other words, her goal was to break him so that he would obey her (and would behave submissively to all Aes Sedai) so she can control him until the Dark One is sealed away. She wanted the same thing Moiraine always wanted - to use him to win the Last Battle (only I've always felt that she was truly breaking him, unwittingly, to Egwene's benefit because she thinks she is the one who is meant to use Rand to win TG and RJ seemed to think Egwene's crap doesn't stink so it would not surprise me in the least if Rand kneels to Egwene and allows her to run the show). I still think that is Cadsuane's intent - and Egwene's - but while reading this thread, I started to have a few other thoughts. Though chances are slim they are accurate (RJ clearly wanted the women to run everything and have the men be lapdogs who obey but complain about it), if the story were to follow a more logical path, the following scenario would be quite fitting...

 

Someone (can't remember who) put up a quote from Cadsuane about "pushing" Rand from a direction he did not expect to throw him off balance. That made me think of something my brother, a second (or third, I think) degree blackbelt in karate, recently showed me. Bear with me here, this is actually relevant. He was teaching me how to stand when in a confrontation. Most people, out of instinct, stand with one foot slightly in front of the other but with their feet kind of close together (that was my first instinct when he was showing me this stuff). However, the problem with that stance is that, while you're still stable if you get hit from the front, when you get hit from the side, you fall over (he showed me that as well). If you stand with your feet wider apart, you have a more stable base and won't fall over no matter which direction someone is coming at you from.

 

Rand, figuratively speaking, had been in the "instinctive" defensive stance with his feet closer together, one behind the other. When Cadsuane marched in there being her naturally obnoxious self, and hit him from the side, so to speak, he wasn't ready. She has continually done that. She has never stopped pushing at him from every direction she can find. He wobbled. He submitted (accepted her emotional and physical abuse without fighting back or even attempting to defend himself). In the end, he fell when she used Tam to attack him. And he fell hard. So hard that he was giving up and was adopting Ishamael's attitude about destroying the world. For all intents and purposes, he had curled into a ball on the ground and was going to set off a nuclear bomb to finish himself off so he wouldn't have to put up with being pushed down anymore. However, he found the strength in himself (whoever credited Cadsuane with "saving the world" was wrong, in my opinion...Rand was the one who did it by finding the strength in himself to go on...all Cadsuane did was come close to destroying it by continually pushing him!) to get up and keep going.

 

The question is, now that he is ready to get back on his feet, how will he stand? Will he not bother with a defensive position at all and become exactly what Cadsuane and all the Aes Sedai want - an obedient slave to their orders, the perfect soldier (warder) who will obey them without question? Or will he get up and have a more solid "base", ready for anything that comes his way and able to take hits without submitting or going down? If it's the latter, and I really hope that it is, I think Cadsuane, Egwene, and everyone else who means to control him is in for a big surprise. Instead of getting a Rand who will fly into a rage at their poking at prodding, or submissively agree to their every demand, they will get a man who can not be shaken by anything they do and who, while listening to and weighing any suggestions they make, will do what he feels best and will refuse to allow anyone to control him. As I said, that would be the most logical path for the story to take now, after Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount. I just fear that RJ intended to, illogically, follow the predetermined course he set that "women must always be in charge and men must submit".

[Skeeve the Great]

I am curious however on her motivations for her embroidery project (ancient Aes Sedai symbol).  Does she mean or see that Asha'man and Aes Sedai need to join together and become as one for victory?

 

The only way Cadsuane would allow the Asha'man and the Aes Sedai to "join together" is with the Asha'man subservient to the Aes Sedai. Much like Egwene, she has no intention of allowing the Asha'man the courtesy of being treated as equals to the women...they must be bonded and be forced to obey the women. End of story. That said...

 

I read this entire thread and, as usual, disagree with Luckers (and anyone else who thinks Cadsuane had the right and the excuse to treat Rand like crap). Cadsuane is like a burr in a horse's saddle - she is irritating to the point of distraction. She is completely untouchable (God-mode ter'angreal, anyone?), everyone ends up submitting to her or cooperating with her (like the Wise Ones), and no one ever stands up to her (save Tam). She is nothing but a bully, albeit one intelligent enough to know when she has encountered someone who will not be bullied the 'normal' way (like the Wise Ones, who would not put up with her trying to push them around). No one in his or her right mind would put up with this woman's attitude. I wouldn't have lasted three minutes around her before I either kicked the crap out of her (age be damned) or had her removed from my presence and dared her to show her face again. She may have good intentions for the world, but she is a horrible excuse for a human being and being around her would be as pleasant as having every hair on your body yanked out by the root...one by one. As for how she treated Rand...

 

I have always been a firm believer that her reasons for setting out to break Rand (and that has, indeed, been her goal since the first day she swept into his world, insulting him and being an all-out bitch) was the same reason that the armed services go about breaking young boys who join - to turn him into her perfect, obedient soldier. In other words, her goal was to break him so that he would obey her (and would behave submissively to all Aes Sedai) so she can control him until the Dark One is sealed away. She wanted the same thing Moiraine always wanted - to use him to win the Last Battle (only I've always felt that she was truly breaking him, unwittingly, to Egwene's benefit because she thinks she is the one who is meant to use Rand to win TG and RJ seemed to think Egwene's crap doesn't stink so it would not surprise me in the least if Rand kneels to Egwene and allows her to run the show). I still think that is Cadsuane's intent - and Egwene's - but while reading this thread, I started to have a few other thoughts. Though chances are slim they are accurate (RJ clearly wanted the women to run everything and have the men be lapdogs who obey but complain about it), if the story were to follow a more logical path, the following scenario would be quite fitting...

 

Someone (can't remember who) put up a quote from Cadsuane about "pushing" Rand from a direction he did not expect to throw him off balance. That made me think of something my brother, a second (or third, I think) degree blackbelt in karate, recently showed me. Bear with me here, this is actually relevant. He was teaching me how to stand when in a confrontation. Most people, out of instinct, stand with one foot slightly in front of the other but with their feet kind of close together (that was my first instinct when he was showing me this stuff). However, the problem with that stance is that, while you're still stable if you get hit from the front, when you get hit from the side, you fall over (he showed me that as well). If you stand with your feet wider apart, you have a more stable base and won't fall over no matter which direction someone is coming at you from.

 

Rand, figuratively speaking, had been in the "instinctive" defensive stance with his feet closer together, one behind the other. When Cadsuane marched in there being her naturally obnoxious self, and hit him from the side, so to speak, he wasn't ready. She has continually done that. She has never stopped pushing at him from every direction she can find. He wobbled. He submitted (accepted her emotional and physical abuse without fighting back or even attempting to defend himself). In the end, he fell when she used Tam to attack him. And he fell hard. So hard that he was giving up and was adopting Ishamael's attitude about destroying the world. For all intents and purposes, he had curled into a ball on the ground and was going to set off a nuclear bomb to finish himself off so he wouldn't have to put up with being pushed down anymore. However, he found the strength in himself (whoever credited Cadsuane with "saving the world" was wrong, in my opinion...Rand was the one who did it by finding the strength in himself to go on...all Cadsuane did was come close to destroying it by continually pushing him!) to get up and keep going.

 

The question is, now that he is ready to get back on his feet, how will he stand? Will he not bother with a defensive position at all and become exactly what Cadsuane and all the Aes Sedai want - an obedient slave to their orders, the perfect soldier (warder) who will obey them without question? Or will he get up and have a more solid "base", ready for anything that comes his way and able to take hits without submitting or going down? If it's the latter, and I really hope that it is, I think Cadsuane, Egwene, and everyone else who means to control him is in for a big surprise. Instead of getting a Rand who will fly into a rage at their poking at prodding, or submissively agree to their every demand, they will get a man who can not be shaken by anything they do and who, while listening to and weighing any suggestions they make, will do what he feels best and will refuse to allow anyone to control him. As I said, that would be the most logical path for the story to take now, after Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount. I just fear that RJ intended to, illogically, follow the predetermined course he set that "women must always be in charge and men must submit".

 

OK, I feel like reporting you to moderators - you are making too much sense!

[Lambada]

@lilltempest

Actually RJ has always stated that the fact that women and men need to work together isw one of the major themes of his series.

 

The only times anything has ever really gone right has been when both genders worked together.

 

To show this, he had to create a world where that was not the norm.

 

All that aside, I generally agree with your points, as I have outlined elsewhere in this thread.

 

I believe that what will happen now is that most channelers will start to work together - in part because Egwene is close to realising this, her attitude has improved, but it is not quite there yet.

[Silentvoice]

Cadsuane is the way she is because she knows what works. I actually tend to like her arrogance, since it stems from what to her is the only correct course of action. She does what she needs to get her goals accomplished.

 

The only time I don't like her is when she uses force to accomplish things. In general though she's dealing with weak willed individuals, and knows how to get them to do what she wants. If she oversteps her bounds in doing this, it's by invitation.

[aunt_pol]

@silentvoice: by invitation?? Clarify pls!

[lilltempest]

@lilltempest

Actually RJ has always stated that the fact that women and men need to work together isw one of the major themes of his series.

 

The problem is that he seemed to believe that "working together" meant the men being bonded and in a subservient position to the women. Women who are bullies are presented as "strong and a force to be reckoned with", where as men who are bullies are presented as horrible and evil. Even in the Two Rivers, where men and women are supposedly equal, the man aren't allowed to stick their noses in women's business but the women are constantly meddling in the men's affairs. The same goes double for the Aiel.

 

So, personally, I don't trust that RJ truly understood what "working together" means. It does not mean one group completely dominating another as the Aes Sedai want to do with the Asha'man and Rand. And, until the people in Randland learn what cooperation really is, I think "separate but equal" is the only way to go. In other words, the Asha'man need to stay a separate entity from the Aes Sedai and make it clear that, while they will work with the women, they will not submit.

 

I believe that what will happen now is that most channelers will start to work together - in part because Egwene is close to realising this, her attitude has improved, but it is not quite there yet.

 

Egwene is one of the worst offenders and, in my opinion, suffers from the same arrogance as Cadsuane. We have seen her think repeatedly that she needs to control Rand. She truly believes that she knows what needs to be done more so than he does and that he is not capable of doing anything without her or the Aes Sedai of her choice keeping him on a proverbial leash. To think for one second that she would allow channeling men to be treated as equals to Aes Sedai is, at the very best, extremely optimistic. She will want them bonded, just as Cadsuane does, and will not accept anything less. I fear Rand will give it to her. Poor Logain.  >:(

[StefanR]

You might have heard Jim talking about him and Harriet before. He said something along the lines of "I agree with Harriet about small things that I may not be happy about, so that when something big comes along, I can put my foot down and by the time she comes to, it's all smoothed over"

 

I'd be quite surprised if the same didn't apply to Rand after Veins of Gold

[Durinax]

You might have heard Jim talking about him and Harriet before. He said something along the lines of "I agree with Harriet about small things that I may not be happy about, so that when something big comes along, I can put my foot down and by the time she comes to, it's all smoothed over"

 

I'd be quite surprised if the same didn't apply to Rand after Veins of Gold

oh so thats where abels advice about marriage came from that he told perrin

[aunt_pol]

I thought that was the way every successful partnership worked. You can't have everything your own way. You compromise. You love the other person, so you give in on things that are more important to them than to you, and vice versa.

 

I'd imagine RJ was grinning saying that.