Will Future Randland Channelers Desire To Be Aes Sedai?

[gambril]

Aside from being a joke of an organization up to this point in the story, once the 'side effects' (said with all contempt and scorn possible mind) of the criminal binder become common knowledge to at least Aes Sedai, will people really want to become an Aes Sedai thus cutting your lifespan in half?  Would you?  Why become Aes Sedai and give up half your life when you could join a different channeling organization that doesn't require you to give up half your life?  Even more, it's common knowledge to us readers how incredibly ignorant and arrogant Aes Sedai are, but is it really feasible for us to believe that they would continue to insist that the 'Oath Rod' is what makes an Aes Sedai?  Will it not be incredibly disapointing for say, Nynaeve to swear on the binder and give up half her life? 

 

As an aside, I find it incredibly funny in an ironic way that people on here will defend the 'Oath Rod'.  Do you not realize that it's just another form of a leash?  But people will argue that it was needed to quell the common people and their fear.  The answer to this is quite simple actually and incredibly ironic since it comes from Egwene, but the answer is to this is what Egwene said to Elaida at their second 'dinner' when she told her that she had sworn the oaths in her heart and to her that was more dear, bingo.  So if 'swearing' the oaths in her heart is more dear, what is the point of doing it on a facking binder? LOL.  Sad, but funny.  I have many thoughts on this issue and will be extremely disapointed with the series if it isn't resolved (criminal binder used for it's true purpose, whether it's hunting darkfriends, trials etc).  Am I the only one that feels this way about Aes Sedai and their vaunted 'Oath Rod'?  Ah, well fire away.

[Tollieman]

I agree wholeheartedly with you. The oath road doesn't benefit the Aes Sedai in any way.

Another thing is; the majority of leaders are aware the Black Ajah exists. So Suian saying that, because of the oath road when an AS says flat out something, it must be true... Well that's down the toilet, because of the BA.

 

So it's all based on trust. And the Oath Rod doesn't change that at all.

 

Unfortunately, after Egwene's opinion-swap (that the Oath Rod is god's gift to Aes Sedai'dom) and the success of the purge.... it's not going away any time soon imo.

[Lambada]

Aside from being a joke of an organization up to this point in the story, once the 'side effects' (said with all contempt and scorn possible mind) of the criminal binder become common knowledge to at least Aes Sedai, will people really want to become an Aes Sedai thus cutting your lifespan in half?

Most likely no - but then again, if they see Aes Sedai as the hero's of the last battle then some might. You should also consider that most Randlanders (at least those who haven't been conquered by Seanchan) still believe that all channelers are Aes Sedai. Those for whom Seanchan are only a rumor mostly think that they use Aes Sedai.

 

Would you?  Why become Aes Sedai and give up half your life when you could join a different channeling organization that doesn't require you to give up half your life? 

If Aes Sedai become a respected organisation through Egwene / Last Battle then quite possibly people would. Also it could be that The Hall decides to keep knowledge of life span reduction to only full sisters. Those who do find out, well, i'm sure the Aes Sedai could cloak the truth so deeply that few would realise the cause.

 

Even more, it's common knowledge to us readers how incredibly ignorant and arrogant Aes Sedai are, but is it really feasible for us to believe that they would continue to insist that the 'Oath Rod' is what makes an Aes Sedai?

What other definition is there now that we have other Channellers? Like it or not, the Oath Rod is the one thing that has set them apart from other channelers.

 

Will it not be incredibly disapointing for say, Nynaeve to swear on the binder and give up half her life? 

More disappointing to me is the fact that Nynaeve will outlive Lan by a long way.

 

As an aside, I find it incredibly funny in an ironic way that people on here will defend the 'Oath Rod'.  Do you not realize that it's just another form of a leash?

I'm pretty sure everyone does, but it is most certainly a far better leash than the a'dam.

 

But people will argue that it was needed to quell the common people and their fear.

That was the whole point of them in the first place - and they would have worked, had it not led to the aloofness and separation that it had. But even so, people still listen to them because of the Oaths.

If they had not done the Oaths, then they most likely would have been feared so much that they'd have been outlawed everywhere - especially as most people way back then, would still have been fearful of them after the Breaking.

The answer to this is quite simple actually and incredibly ironic since it comes from Egwene, but the answer is to this is what Egwene said to Elaida at their second 'dinner' when she told her that she had sworn the oaths in her heart and to her that was more dear, bingo.  So if 'swearing' the oaths in her heart is more dear, what is the point of doing it on a facking binder?

Let's see... perhaps because that means that insincere Oaths are far easier to give, and you wouldn't be held to them. I doubt every Aes Sedai loves the Oaths as much as Egwene does. Some would definitely take the first opportunity to lie I think.

LOL.  Sad, but funny.  I have many thoughts on this issue and will be extremely disapointed with the series if it isn't resolved (criminal binder used for it's true purpose, whether it's hunting darkfriends, trials etc).  Am I the only one that feels this way about Aes Sedai and their vaunted 'Oath Rod'?  Ah, well fire away.

 

And to clear this up:

I would like it to be resolved, but I am unsure how.

I liked Egwenes idea of retiring from being Aes Sedai into the Kin, but that now strikes me as entirely unpractical - why not just become Kin in the first place?

Depending on how they act in the last Battle, I could see the Aes Sedai organisation radically changed, from the central power, to a more distributed one such as The Kin; or even Aes Sedai could be put under even stricter Oaths (such as "I vow to only speak the truth in the plainest language possible").

If you remove the Oaths, you do remove the one thing that sets Aes Sedai apart from The Kin et al.

 

So yeah, although I argued highly-pro Oaths in this, I can see futures where they may not be necessary.

[gambril]

Re: Lambada.

 

The point you are failing to realize in saying the Oath Rod sets Aes Sedai apart from other channelers, just as Aes Sedai do, is that it isn't the Oath Rod that sets them apart, it's the Three Oaths.  It's the spirit of the Three Oaths that sets them apart.  They just take this spirit of them to the extreme by binding themselves to them.  There is no questioning of oneself due to this.  They take an oath to tell no word that is not true and can't due to the binder, but what do they do?  They completely mis-understand the spirit of this oath and intentionally mislead and decieve others all with the unspoken understanding that people know they can't lie.  In essence they completely miss the point of it and sows more distrust, imagine that. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

I am going to agree partly here and say that the Oaths themselves are usless, it is the AS themselves that create the bad name, thus leading to the need for Oaths.

 

All of the other establishments of channelers (Windfinders, Wise Ones etc.) are respected by their communities, without the need for Oaths. Also,  is it a coincidence that all of the other establishments (Windfinders, WO, Kin, Seanchan, Forsaken (they are, after all, AoL Channelers)) look upon the AS with contempt or disappointment(the Kin, after finding out that AS arnt that great).

 

Why is it, we must ask, that the Windfinders, the WO, even the Seanchan Damane are trusted in some way (yes, damane (leashed) are trusted) as opposed to AS, who need Oaths to bolster their reputation? (and even then they are distrusted)

 

The only logical thing to conclude is it is the AS behavior and establishment itself that is lacking. Instead of binding themselves like criminals to get people to trust them, perhaps they should ahve a long hard look at themselves and try improving their attitude and actions.

[Lambada]

Re: Lambada.

 

The point you are failing to realize in saying the Oath Rod sets Aes Sedai apart from other channelers, just as Aes Sedai do, is that it isn't the Oath Rod that sets them apart, it's the Three Oaths.  It's the spirit of the Three Oaths that sets them apart.  They just take this spirit of them to the extreme by binding themselves to them.  There is no questioning of oneself due to this.  They take an oath to tell no word that is not true and can't due to the binder, but what do they do?  They completely mis-understand the spirit of this oath and intentionally mislead and decieve others all with the unspoken understanding that people know they can't lie.  In essence they completely miss the point of it and sows more distrust, imagine that. 

Ok, let's imagine that there was no Oath Rod, but they still tried to hold to them.

For one thing, they may be a lot more lax about the making a weapon / using as a weapon. While the OR holds them to the letter of the Oath without the OR I doubt many would be true in saying that they wanted to give up the ability to lie or make a weapon.  I can think of plenty of people who say that they are honest, yet still tell lies - where is the spirit of honesty in that?

If everyone was like Egwene I would agree entirely with you in that they could do without. But they aren't and they can't. I believe I already made a similar point in my original reply.

 

I am going to agree partly here and say that the Oaths themselves are usless, it is the AS themselves that create the bad name, thus leading to the need for Oaths.

 

All of the other establishments of channelers (Windfinders, Wise Ones etc.) are respected by their communities, without the need for Oaths. Also,  is it a coincidence that all of the other establishments (Windfinders, WO, Kin, Seanchan, Forsaken (they are, after all, AoL Channelers)) look upon the AS with contempt or disappointment(the Kin, after finding out that AS arnt that great).

 

Why is it, we must ask, that the Windfinders, the WO, even the Seanchan Damane are trusted in some way (yes, damane (leashed) are trusted) as opposed to AS, who need Oaths to bolster their reputation? (and even then they are distrusted)

 

The only logical thing to conclude is it is the AS behavior and establishment itself that is lacking. Instead of binding themselves like criminals to get people to trust them, perhaps they should ahve a long hard look at themselves and try improving their attitude and actions.

Exactly, their attitudes and actions are what has caused the distrust. Not the Oaths directly. Most likely Egwene will change the attitudes and actions, whilst keeping the oaths.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Lambada, I am not sure if you have read my post incorrectly, or are trying to argue for arguments sake..

 

But what you just replied is exactly what i am saying...

 

Read the first line...

I am going to agree partly here and say that the Oaths themselves are usless, it is the AS themselves that create the bad name, thus leading to the need for Oaths.

 

I am saying that the oaths are useless, in the fact that if they improve their behaviour and actions, there would be no need to have the oaths....

[Lambada]

Lambada, I am not sure if you have read my post incorrectly, or are trying to argue for arguments sake..

 

But what you just replied is exactly what i am saying...

 

Read the first line...

I am going to agree partly here and say that the Oaths themselves are usless, it is the AS themselves that create the bad name, thus leading to the need for Oaths.

 

I am saying that the oaths are useless, in the fact that if they improve their behaviour and actions, there would be no need to have the oaths....

I know, I quoted you as my bit about Egwene changing attitudes whilst keeping Oaths was inspired by your post. I did not intend it to be taken as part of my debate with gambril - hence the blank line between the two sections of my post.

[Barid Bel Medar]

AH, yes, you are correct, sorry it seems I am the one who misread hahah :D

[gambril]

Naw, I disagree.  The Oaths and being bound to them has indirectly, maybe not completely but it's a large part of it, has led to the mistrust.  Let me try to make a point on how I see it and understand it in the simplest manner I can think of.  Lets take Matrim and his PoV's whom, we all know he doesn't like the witches and doesn't trust them.  Why is this?  Part of it is simply because they're witches but the other part is this is how he was raised in the Two Rivers.  The whole you can't trust what an Aes Sedai says.  Or the truth an Aes Sedai tells you isn't the 'truth' you think it is.  Why is this?  Two reasons as I see it:

 

1:  First he and everyone knows they take an oath not to lie.  I don't know about you but if someone were to tell me such a thing.  The first thing that pops into my head, why in the world do you need an oath not to lie?

 

2:  The second is, he's seen time and again that this is in fact true.  When he thanks Joline and tells her he's in debt to her for leaving that note on his 'pillow'.  Her response is all debts are settled if you help me get out of here.  He knows it's a lie, if only by omission but still a lie, because the note wasn't left on his pillow.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You have stated the point exactly

 

1:  First he and everyone knows they take an oath not to lie.  I don't know about you but if someone were to tell me such a thing.  The first thing that pops into my head, why in the world do you need an oath not to lie?

 

In the first place, people didnt trust AS, so they made the Oaths.

 

So, why do they need oaths you ask?

 

Becaause their attitude was dubious. IF they improved their attitude, there would be no need for the Oaths and thus, there would be no question "Why in the world do you need an Oath not to lie"

[TheDecline01]

I think the single main problem of Aes Seadai above all is their confinement. The White Tower, only it.

Have we ever seen a society work where every would be leader or behind the scene leader comes from the same single place? No. They are so closed and single minded as they are now because of their isolation. Tower laws are the laws for them. Problem, there hasn't been any time during the whole Humanity that a single organisation hasn't been seriously wrong on one particular point.

 

Wise Ones, Windfinders etc... are less flawed because they are spread and thus, in contact with many opinions, many ways of thinking, laws etc... They might represent a group, but they're also everywhere. Aes Sedai only intervene to interfere and bend people to their will. Not to learn and absorb knowledges.

 

The oath rod is anything but useless to me, it's only the way they got themselves that is highly disturbing. And that makes them so inefficient at seeing things through clearly.

[Mcpatrick]

You know, during the formation of the white tower, the aes sedai murdered the channellers that refused to join. Given that this is the "wheel of time", history might just repeat itself.

[Wonzer]

I don't think we will see AS giving up oaths in any book. Egwene is now against that idea and I don't think we will see her opinion changing again.

However if the life goes on I believe they would give up the oaths in future. Maybe 100, 300 or 1000 years from now. And I believe that the big issue in this wil be the Asha'mans. They won't be tied by oaths but I believe they will have eaqual influence to world and people. At some point AS will see that they get no advantage with oaths and drops them.

 

Also I think we don't know what effect there is if someone has oaths some thime and then give them up. If she is bound let's say 50 years and then give up the oaths will that cut her life and if so how much?

[TheDecline01]

Another big question is : Why would the White Tower, as a powerful political party, be closed to non-channelers??

I've always been struck that only channelers have the right to be part of this organization above kings and queens themselves. Are channelers all this clever? Do you have to be smart to have the gene for channeling?

Cause we've not seen so far an idiot channeler right?

 

 

P.S.: I do realize I'm a bit off topic...

[DocBean]

Cause we've not seen so far an idiot channeler right?

 

 

Elaida, Elayne is pretty dumb.

 

[DemandredFO]

As someone said it would be incredibly disappointing if Nyneave took the oaths on the binder.  She was wisdom, she was trusted, some of the men thought she was bossy and she was but they all trusted her.  She has matured beyond biatch, she still has some rough edges but I see no need for her to take oaths on the binder.  Really it was probably their deeds more than anything else that made AS distrusted.  Sure people held them responsible for the breaking but 700 years or so elapsed between the breaking and the Trolloc Wars.  Surely if they had done good works time would've mended their reputation.  Most importantly though, they need to be detached from their Ivory tower.

[darth_hel]

I would say the most important oath is not the tell no lie oath, the oath that allows people to accept them  is the Never use the One Power as a weapon, except against Shadowspawn and darkfriends,or save her own life, or her Warder's, or the life of another sister. I don't think people trust a group of strictly channelers governed by no one. The Windfinder's are not a group of channelers, the windfinders are seafolk first and channelers second and usually stay apart from other channelers. The Wise Ones are not just channelers but just powerful women who survived Rhuidean. The asha'man are the only other all channeler self-governed group and they aren't really trusted, even Elayne with her strong ties to Rand is wary of them being close to Caemlyn in the Black Tower. The only thing keeping people from seeing Aes Sedai as a major threat is the knowledge that they will be safe as long as they do not attack them.

 

[WMTom]

Egwene's emphatic insistance to the Three Oaths ensure their survival for as long as she remains incharge.  I believe they will modify the originals or make an addition to, something to the effect "I am not now, never have been nor will ever be a darkfriend".  Perhaps with the addition to never touch the oath rod again.  With recent occurances, I would guess the Black Ajah will not be an issue for the White Tower as it once was.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Egwene's emphatic insistance to the Three Oaths ensure their survival for as long as she remains incharge.  I believe they will modify the originals or make an addition to, something to the effect "I am not now, never have been nor will ever be a darkfriend".  Perhaps with the addition to never touch the oath rod again.  With recent occurances, I would guess the Black Ajah will not be an issue for the White Tower as it once was.

 

For the purposes of keeping out the BA, i think that oath is a good idea, perhaps with ann additional "I will never try to remove this oath" so they cant get around it by unswearing.

 

On the whole topic of AS and their oaths, i now say, meh, let them have it. Just tell all the people that the AS are swearing oaths on what used to be something to bind criminals, that would reduce their credibility, when the common people learn what the Binder is.

[Thor]

I disagree, the White Tower has done its job better than the United Nations. So stop criticizing it. It has still produced good people throughout the years that worked behind the scenes and would never be mentioned in the hidden archives.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I disagree, the White Tower has done its job better than the United Nations. So stop criticizing it.

 

I dont think you realise the stupidity of this comment.

 

You dont know everything, your word isnt true, it is an opinion.

 

Others are allowed their own opinion.

 

If think you know everything, dont post, keep it to yourself, this is a place for posting opinions, expect your point of view to be disagreed with.

 

Edit: Alright, I apologize, i may have been a bit abbrasive, but the fact still remains...

[Loophole]

You dont know everything, your word isnt true, it is an opinion.

 

Since he said it I assumed it was his opinion... seriously do we have to put in my opinion in front of everything we say ?  :-\

 

 

Now I also think the oaths are useless, but I definitely think this is the wrong time to try and remove them. the AS are barely trusted as it is and removing them now with their current attitude would be disastrous.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You dont know everything, your word isnt true, it is an opinion.

 

Since he said it I assumed it was his opinion... seriously do we have to put in my opinion in front of everything we say ?  :-\

 

 

Read the sentance properly.

 

I disagree, the White Tower has done its job better than the United Nations. So stop criticizing it.

 

 

 

[Loophole]

 

Read the sentance properly.

 

I disagree, In my opinion the White Tower has done its job better than the United Nations. In my opinion you should all stop criticizing it.

 

 

Seems fine to me... modified it to show that what he says his his opinion, does this make it better? although the "so stop criticizing it" was a bit forceful.