In YOUR Opinion - Is The Fantasy ''Genre'' Improving or Getting Worse??!

[The Fisher King]

I am interested.

 

In my opinion, it is fairly strong right now.

 

The 80s seemed to be dominated by one-dimensional (yet still fun) D&D type of books.

 

Eddings and The Belgariad and Weis&Hickman and Dragonlance were huge then too.

 

In the 90s I felt like Fantasy started to ''grow-up'' a little.

 

Melanie Rawn, Tad Williams and Robert Jordan started turning out some series that really seemed to have...Depth...COMPLEXITY.

 

The late 90s and Early 2000s seemed like the peak for me. I personally think it peaked AS A GENRE with A Storm of The Swords.

 

I feel like it has been in a slump since then. The gap between KOD.COT - TGS (through, of course, sad circumstances) and the gap between A Feast of The Crows and The Dancing of Dragon and the Goodkind books seemes to initiate a slump - In MY Opinion.

 

*Oh Yes - I will ALWAYS hit the inexcusable ''A Dance With Dragons'' very VERY HARD here, LOL!!! ;-)

 

aNYWAYYYYS:

 

It probably hurts me that I never saw what was so great about Malazzaan Book Fallen and that I have not read Baker yet.

 

***********EDIT***********::: I forgot to say WHY I feel that it is getting ''Strong'' again, LOL!!!

 

1 WOT is BACK, Baby!!! - 2 novels (TGS/TOM) is 13 months...ADWD can NOT be more than 1 more year away...Sword of The Truth is OVER and Brandon Sanderson seems to be heading up a new generation of EXCELLENT new and young Fantasy Writers! :)

 

I going twll you what: That Sanderson man has SO MUCH of my respect I cannot express.

 

These are just MY Thoughts...

 

I am interested in YOURS...

 

 

- Fish

[Werthead]

A recent comment by Orson Scott Card:

 

"This is the golden age of fantasy, with a dozen masters doing their best work."

 

Slightly hyperbolic, but not entirely unreasonable.

 

We have authors like Jeff VanderMeer, Hal Duncan, China Mieville, Steph Swainston, Alan Campbell and Neil Gaiman doing interesting and not-always-obvious things with the genre.

 

In epic fantasy itself we have had blistering debuts by Scott Lynch and Pat Rothfuss (that they really still have to follow up on satisfyingly, or in Rothfuss's case at all, but they still have vast potential) and authors like Ken Scholes and Adrian Tchaikovsky delivering quality work very rapidly. Brandon Sanderson is of course very good and, more importantly, getting better all the time. Mark Charan Newton's first two books have also been excellent, as have Stephen Deas's. We're also seeing more established authors like Chris Wooding, Paul Kearney and Glen Cook getting a lot more attention and respect than a few years ago.

 

Erikson and Bakker continue to twist epic fantasy into new shapes and say new things with the genre, even if (in Erikson's case) it is at the expense of good storytelling (but I think Erikson will bounce back strong after concluding the initial MALAZAN series). Established writers like Terry Pratchett continue to release good books, and even the old mainstay Terry Brooks seems to have upped his game a lot. Even tie-in work has been forced to up its game with the arrival of talents like Paul Kemp and Graham McNeill. Unfortunately, the chances of Ray Feist ever releasing a good book again seem to have disappeared as he churns out books for the money, but you never know.

[jemron]

Man, I should really read more.  I've only heard of like 3 of the mentioned authors in this thread so far... :P

 

I should really read more than WoT and BWS.

[The Fisher King]

Mr Wert:

 

Thank you very much, Wert, for mentioning those names (Duncan, VanderMeer, Swainston). Like many, I am always looking for new fantasy authors of merit and I had not heard those names before.

 

I actually HAVE heard of Lynch and Rothfuss and what they have been doing recently, but, sadly, I have not yet had the chance to read them. But I am excited to.

 

I so very agree with you about Brandon Sanderson. Sometimes I find myself asking ''Is this guy for real?'' ... He sometimes seems too good to be true, lol.

 

I agree about Brooks - Impressive. A rare example of an older author actually getting better, and FRESHER.

 

*Shakes Head Sadly* ... Mr Wert, I could write a Thesis on Raymond E Feist :(((

 

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Wert!!!

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

Jemron...Im like soooo with you on that deal - I am sooo BEHIND - HA HA HA!!! :)  :)

 

 

Fish

[Senexx]

When the popular fantasy media is Harry Potter and Twilight, you know it is going backwards and getting worse.

 

That's my opinion.

[The Fisher King]

Thanks for chiming in Senexx.

 

I have never read about any Twilight so I am not qualified to give an opinion there.

 

I have read the HP series ... I actually felt like they were (for the most part - adverbs not withstanding) very, very well-written.

 

Have you read The HP Series?

 

 

Fish

[Senexx]

I've read a single page, maybe it was two and it was enough to turn me off.

[The Fisher King]

LOL!!!  :D

 

 

Fish

[Hallow]

I quite enjoyed Harry Potter. It started out as a slightly childish fantasy series but grew darker and more mature as it went on. I wouldn't say it's up there with Lord of the Rings, Wheel of Time or A Song of Ice and Fire but they're still decent books.

[Kaznen]

Harry Potter is why the genre is how it is now.  Used to be Fantasy demand wasn't that huge so publishing houses focusing on fantasy were few and far between and according to Orson Scott Card's book on writing fantasy it wasn't that hard to get published if you had a halfway decent story.

 

And because the readership was so low the houses couldn't publish a whole lot (even through demand was high in the audience) because readers only had so much money.

 

Harry Potter got many young children interested in reading and reading fantasy.  When they got done reading the Potter books they would ask bookstore employees for more fantasy and they would turn them to more "grown up" stuff, like WoT. (There was a news article about this and WoT was mentioned).

 

The kids who started by reading HP grew up but stayed in the genre.  Larger audience still high demand.  Publishers can afford to invest in a larger variety of fantasy instead of just Robert E. Howard type stories and LotR wanna-bes.

[Rufae]

You forgot Dune in your recap. That was quite a milestone in its day.

 

As for Scott Lynch, he was great with Lies of Locke Lamora. But he totally lost creditbility with me in Red Seas. I won't spoil it for those who like that kind of stuff, but that book pissed me off more than any other book has in recent memory.

 

[Phariah]

i think it has gotten better.

 

i grew up on Micheal Moorcock and his Elric and his various Eternal Champion series. Thomas Covenant series. LotR. Dune. and a few others.

 

like it was said i think with HP acting as a doorway it has brought many into reading fantasy again. the first few HP were mild yet as they got to HBP and DH it became quite good imho. but still cant stand Twilight.

 

besides the author mentioned there are others that are putting out detective and PI style fantasy novels that are doing well also, among those is Mr Jim Butcher and his Dresden Files. Fantasy has grown quite well lately imho.

[Kaznen]

You forgot Dune in your recap. That was quite a milestone in its day.

 

Dune always seemed more Sci-Fi then Fantasy to me.  And I do believe there is a difference.

 

besides the author mentioned there are others that are putting out detective and PI style fantasy novels that are doing well also, among those is Mr Jim Butcher and his Dresden Files. Fantasy has grown quite well lately imho.

 

Like what I said about the high demand, larger audience.  Publishers are able to take chances in expanding the genre.  Used to be, when there wasn't such a large audience, they stayed with the safe tried and true sword and sorcery stuff because they didn't have the safety of a low percent return on recouping costs, let alone making money.

 

Before HP if there was an audience of say, 500,000, and the book they published only got a 3% share and they printed 50,000 copies they didn't sell 35,000 units they lost 70% of what they put in.

 

After HP if the audience is 5,000,000, and the new book gets 3% share they would sell out of a 100000 copy printing.  Not only did they earn back what they spent they made some decent money.

[TheBeerPatriot]

I feel the fantasy genre has improved and gotten quite sophisticated over the past two decades.  I too, grew up reading Eddings, Dragonlance, the initial Shannara trilogy and the Magician series by Feist. 

 

Fantasy really turned the corner with Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow & Thorn trilogy, and of course the debut of WoT in 1990.

 

With much more fantasy in print than there was during the 80's, you're bound to have clunkers.  I've never read Twilight, and don't plan to, either.  Wizard's First Rule was ok, but could not get through the 2nd book.  I did read the HP series and I felt the series got stronger up to book 6, but the 7th book was a easy copout. 

 

One author I haven't seen mentioned on here is Patricia McKillip.  She's not as well known, as some of the other authors mentioned here, probably because most of her books are stand-alone novels.  However, she writes some of the best characters, and her descriptive powers are the best I've seen in the genre.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Im going to agree with most people here, Fantasy at the moment is going very well, a lot of good authors, established and new.

 

HOWEVER

 

In my opinion, it will get worse in around 10-20 years. It has been becomming more and more complex, less black and white. Which has been a good think, i like the complexity of WoT, aSoIaF etc...

 

HOWEVER, i think people are going to get a bit out of control with the "reality and shaded" side of it until it becomes, frankly, just a mess of characters who have no real purpose and just go round killing and such for stupid reasons.

 

It is good to make thinks unpredictable, but seriously, you DO need to have a bit of the Good v. Evil in there. YOu need a ultimate good and bad guys overarhing plot to sustain the series.

[Sagacious Lu]

Personally my favorite fantasy authors tend to be the guys that pioneered the genre- by which I mean Howard, Moorcock, Leiber, Tolkien and co.  Not only did they tell a better story than most modern writers, they were undeniably original in a way that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO BE TODAY.  They established the conventions of the genre (the multiverse, or at least other realities. time travel, wizards, monsters etc.) and in so doing defined concepts that we take for granted no matter the author. In their day pretty much all fantasy was "original" but today's writers have to work a lot harder to come up with something new. As a result there is exponentially more fantasy today but most of what I see is a shameless rehashing of stories that were told better a couple of decades ago.  On the other hand there are also a precious few modern writers who see further because they stand on the shoulders of giants (to steal a phrase) and thus elevate the genre. Thus the genre IS improving, provided you have the patience to find the talent.  IMHO China Mieville is a great example of what I'm talking about.  In a market that has seen way too many books written to support RPGs his work is genuinely imaginative and challenging.

[Blackhoof]

its getting harder and harder to think of original fantasy. everything has been done. the old black and white has been done, and now all shades of grey is getting boring as well. well, boring for some people, i just read whatever.

[The Dirty Landry]

Anybody read "The Left Hand of God" yet? Its the book that Tor.com has been advertising. I actually thought it had some originality in it. It was certainly an interesting storyline.

 

Also the Warded Man and the Desert Spear by Peter Brett were pretty interesting. I also thought the Black Magician Trilogy by Trudi Canavan was pretty well done and the author wasn't afraid to kill of big characters.

[Senexx]

There has never been an original.  Just new ways of presenting the same material.

 

I base this on the cliche "There's nothing new under the sun".

 

That is my opinion.

[Lilbaz]

Personally my favorite fantasy authors tend to be the guys that pioneered the genre- by which I mean Howard, Moorcock, Leiber, Tolkien and co.  Not only did they tell a better story than most modern writers, they were undeniably original in a way that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO BE TODAY.  They established the conventions of the genre (the multiverse, or at least other realities. time travel, wizards, monsters etc.) and in so doing defined concepts that we take for granted no matter the author. In their day pretty much all fantasy was "original" but today's writers have to work a lot harder to come up with something new. As a result there is exponentially more fantasy today but most of what I see is a shameless rehashing of stories that were told better a couple of decades ago.  On the other hand there are also a precious few modern writers who see further because they stand on the shoulders of giants (to steal a phrase) and thus elevate the genre. Thus the genre IS improving, provided you have the patience to find the talent.  IMHO China Mieville is a great example of what I'm talking about.  In a market that has seen way too many books written to support RPGs his work is genuinely imaginative and challenging.

 

Why do people always think these guys pioneered the field. Fantasy was around long before these guys. Homer anyone? Tolkien didn't invent elves or dwarves they were already in Norse/Celtic/Germanic mythology.

Anyway back on track. Good writers out there at the moment: Weeks, Abercrombie, Lynch, Sanderson, Brett, Butcher, Martin, Ericson, Banks. These aren't the only ones, just the ones I have read and can pull off the top of my head.

We have lost a couple, Jordan and Gemmell stand out for me and will be impossible to replace, but there will be someone just as good.

At the moment it is hard to get truly epic scope books started as I think that publishers actually want to keep them short (3 books) to keep interest. But fashion will change again and someone will write a 20 book saga that will take 30 years to write and in 50 years will be the greatest ever.

[Blackhoof]

no, but tolkien turned dwarves from weird invisible people into mining warriors and elves from midgets into tall, immortal tanks. since then, the immortal elf and the mining, underworld-dwelling dwarf are both common. he took old myths and turned them into solid, well-known stereotypes. regardless of whether he made up new stuff or not, he was one of the major contributers to fantasy transforming from weird, mythologised poems that you couldnt understand (homer, shakesphere) into solid, understandable stories.

[Senexx]

He also has a good story behind it all but in my own opinion is a poor writer.

 

I can be reading a Tolkien battle scene and be bored by it.

[Epherion]

I'd say it expands both ways.

[Ozzie_aiel]

I'd say the Renaissance of Fantasy was with authors like Kipling, Tolkien, etc, who set the benchmark in what fantasy is. Since then, it has been gradually declining, not because the authors are getting worse, but because the Fantasy genre has very distinct, almost rigid, parameters, and though there are an infinate number of ideas, etc, the stories almost always go the same way.

 

A prime example of this can be 3 of the biggest fantasy series of all time; Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and star Wars, all very different, yet you can move the main characters around and still have the same plot.

 

This is true to some extent with every fantasy series