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A Snippet Im Surprised Didn't Cause Wild Celebration Among Big ''Mat Fans''


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I count myself as an unabashed Mat Fan and I actually got chills when I read the following tidbit, shared by Mr Sandeson:

 

''However, if you were worried about him (Mat), it should help you to know that the large bulk of the Mat sequences Robert Jordan wrote are in TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT. There is a lot more Robert Jordan Mat to come.''

 

That quote comes from an interview that our excellent DM Staff posted here on DM quite some time ago.

 

In it, Brandon Sanderson acknowledged that he was aware that SOME (however, NOT including Harriet)felt Mat was ''off'' in TGS.

 

Finding out that part of what Mr Jordan ''left'' before he passed away was a ''large bulk'' of already written (by rj) Mat stuff literally made me feel like Christmas had come early!!!

 

I think alot of people missed this. It has me excited.

 

However, (Last Thing): I want to say that during my FIRST read of TGS (which I thought B.S. did an overall EXCELLENT Job with), I was one of those who was a bit concerned about the portrayal of Mat.

 

To me, he initally felt like...an over-caffinated cardboard cut-out of the character.

 

BUT. After a few months, and a later re-read...I have to say...I really felt like Mat was MUCH more 'himself' than I had INITIALLY thought.

 

Just My Opinion.

 

I am so excited about T.O.M. - As they like to say around here, I think it is going to be EPIC PWN/OWNAGE!!! :-)

 

 

Fish

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The only difference I noticed in Mat was his internal dialogue was missing.  The reason he's so funny is because his internal dialogue contradicts what he actually says to people a lot of the time.  Mat in TGS just talked and talked and talked without us seeing why he was saying what he was saying.  This was the main difference to me.

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I would like address this to gambril:

 

You stated that the biggest differences with Mat (in YOUR opinion) was an increase in verbal talking and a decrease in inner dialogue.

 

I actually agree with this observation very much.

 

One thing about Mat that I wonder if get lost is that: For all of his Comic Relief - he is a BIG TIME *Brooder* and he has ALOT of *ANGST* and Self-Bitterness about alot of his past actions.

 

While its always fun to see Mat capering around being silly...Mat himself (ESPECIALLY in the COT/KOD era) is MUCH more likely to go find a nice boulder away from camp, sit down on it by himself and just BROOD all day about all the 3 women he has killed.

 

I like him because about he is funny...I LOVE the character because of his complexity.

 

Perrin is more known for being super-emo but Mat actually broods the most of the Big Three (yes, even more than Rand and his List).

 

 

- Fish

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I was wildly celebrating.  On the inside. 

Aside from that I'm sure Sanderson can do a passable Mat with a little practice.  Yes, TGS was practice Mat.  It did seem a little closer after a few rereads when I looked at it objectively ignoring some of the more obvious things that just sounded wrong and kinda skewed my first read-through of those chapters.

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I would like to address to The Sid:

 

You actually just summarized my thoughts on Mat and TGS-MAT very well.

 

I actually had NOT read ANY other folks comments about Mat in TGS not being quite ''right'' when I very did first read TGS. ... Annnd... I thought he was glaringly ''off''

 

I am just currently and recently re-reading TGS after like 6 months without picking the book up - and I am also NOT seeing Mat as being NEARLY as ''off'' anymore...

 

The only two things that still stick out to me that bugged me just a little were/are:

 

1 ''Bloody Ashes'' ... I know this didn't bother many, but it DID me - LOL LOL LOL!!! - He never uttered the phrase one even time in 11 preceeding books in the WOT Series of books. I understand about ''Blood and Ashes'' and ''Blood and Bloody Ashes'' .... but ''Bloody Ashes'' all of a sudden ... just didn't work for me. But I do apologize.

 

2 jambril said it best ... The lack of ''internal'' thoughts ... bugged me. Being given so much strictly ''External'' Mat just seemed to make him come off as a bit to cardboard for me when he has actually been much deeper and more of a brooder in later books.

 

JMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

:) :)

 

 

Fish

 

 

 

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However, (Last Thing): I want to say that during my FIRST read of TGS (which I thought B.S. did an overall EXCELLENT Job with), I was one of those who was a bit concerned about the portrayal of Mat.

 

To me, he initally felt like...an over-caffinated cardboard cut-out of the character.

 

BUT. After a few months, and a later re-read...I have to say...I really felt like Mat was MUCH more 'himself' than I had INITIALLY thought.

 

Just My Opinion.

 

I am so excited about T.O.M. - As they like to say around here, I think it is going to be EPIC PWN/OWNAGE!!! :-)

 

 

Agree 100% on all counts.

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I count myself as an unabashed Mat Fan and I actually got chills when I read the following tidbit, shared by Mr Sandeson:

 

''However, if you were worried about him (Mat), it should help you to know that the large bulk of the Mat sequences Robert Jordan wrote are in TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT. There is a lot more Robert Jordan Mat to come.''

 

That quote comes from an interview that our excellent DM Staff posted here on DM quite some time ago.

 

In it, Brandon Sanderson acknowledged that he was aware that SOME (however, NOT including Harriet)felt Mat was ''off'' in TGS.

 

Finding out that part of what Mr Jordan ''left'' before he passed away was a ''large bulk'' of already written (by rj) Mat stuff literally made me feel like Christmas had come early!!!

 

I think alot of people missed this. It has me excited.

 

However, (Last Thing): I want to say that during my FIRST read of TGS (which I thought B.S. did an overall EXCELLENT Job with), I was one of those who was a bit concerned about the portrayal of Mat.

 

To me, he initally felt like...an over-caffinated cardboard cut-out of the character.

 

BUT. After a few months, and a later re-read...I have to say...I really felt like Mat was MUCH more 'himself' than I had INITIALLY thought.

 

Just My Opinion.

 

I am so excited about T.O.M. - As they like to say around here, I think it is going to be EPIC PWN/OWNAGE!!! :-)

 

 

Fish

 

To be honest I didnt mind Mat in TGS. I do think it was slightly as if he had taken a step back in his mindset though, in a way. For example, while you could easily put it down to him trying not to be boring now that hes married, or that his unknown time of importance at TG is near, his moaning session to Thom I think felt like Mat a few books ago, the slightly less badass Mat. Although, one small line made it all right for me.

 

"I wish they'd all go after Rand. He likes it."

 

That made that scene into one of my favorite Mat moments despite the slight oddity in the rest of that scene.

 

I do like Mat a lot, and I can definitely understand why some people look forward to more "original" Mat if you will, but its moments like these that make me feel a bit sorry for Brandon, knowing that some people were potentially disapointed with an awesome character. I suppose its one of those things that just happens sometimes.

 

One thing he said recently though I think, is that while theres going to be a significant portion of AMoL on both Mat and Perrin, he did say that there is more Rand than either of the other two. That is what makes me more excited, because I have a feeling the Black and White Tower will be focused on and that we've got a good chance of getting the big revelation about Taims involvement.

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I count myself as an unabashed Mat Fan and I actually got chills when I read the following tidbit, shared by Mr Sandeson:

 

''However, if you were worried about him (Mat), it should help you to know that the large bulk of the Mat sequences Robert Jordan wrote are in TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT. There is a lot more Robert Jordan Mat to come.''

 

That quote comes from an interview that our excellent DM Staff posted here on DM quite some time ago.

 

In it, Brandon Sanderson acknowledged that he was aware that SOME (however, NOT including Harriet)felt Mat was ''off'' in TGS.

 

Finding out that part of what Mr Jordan ''left'' before he passed away was a ''large bulk'' of already written (by rj) Mat stuff literally made me feel like Christmas had come early!!!

 

I think alot of people missed this. It has me excited.

 

However, (Last Thing): I want to say that during my FIRST read of TGS (which I thought B.S. did an overall EXCELLENT Job with), I was one of those who was a bit concerned about the portrayal of Mat.

 

To me, he initally felt like...an over-caffinated cardboard cut-out of the character.

 

BUT. After a few months, and a later re-read...I have to say...I really felt like Mat was MUCH more 'himself' than I had INITIALLY thought.

 

Just My Opinion.

 

I am so excited about T.O.M. - As they like to say around here, I think it is going to be EPIC PWN/OWNAGE!!! :-)

 

 

Fish

 

Just to correct your logic and avoid any misguidance:

 

BS said that the "large bulk" of RJ written Mat scenes are going to be in ToM.

 

It is very different from

 

The "Large Bulk" of what RJ left is mat scenes.

 

i do believe that the "large bulk" of his writings were about Rand and TG.

 

---

 

So it actually means that for aMoL there will be little RJ's Mat and more BS's.

 

Not that i mind. I did believe that Mat was strange due to the recent facts of his life (marrige and the proximity of the end of the world).

 

BS did manage to place a Mat who resorted to humor to hide his real feelings, even if those were not displayed as thoughts.

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Drekka Mort...ImpBo...

 

First, Drekka Mort...You said: ''''I do like Mat a lot, and I can definitely understand why some people look forward to more "original" Mat if you will, but its moments like these that make me feel a bit sorry for Brandon, knowing that some people were potentially disapointed with an awesome character. I suppose its one of those things that just happens sometimes.''''

 

AWESOME Point. While Brandon is a big boy and a professional author before starting TGS - and while we, by virtue of paying our money for the book, DO have the right to criticize, you DO have to feel for the guy a little bit. ... This is truly a HUGE set of shoes (Mr Jordan's) that he has stepped into and Mat is MANY folk's favorite character...Mr Sanderson is already being analyzed like crazy over EVERY word of his compared to RJ's /// Sanderson is doing a GREAT overall job if the main thing that YOURS TRULY (I mean 'me') had to gripe about of TGS was Mat seeming slighlty 'off; in Brandon's very first WOT Book...well...life is pretty good and I really appreciate Mr Sanderson.

 

IMPBO...Be careful...you agree with me too often and the folks around here haul you off to those nice soothing white rooms with the super soft walls ;-)

 

 

Fish

 

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Brandon has a hard task with Mat.  Robert Jordan specifically said in his notes (and Harriet confirmed later) that Mat would try, after his wedding, to desperately reassert a sort of devil-may-care, gambler attitude in an effort to prove that he is not becoming a husband but is the dame as ever.  So Brandon didn't even get the job writing Mat circa KoD, he needed to write a troubled Mat trying to pretend to be a carefree Mat of the days of yore.  That's a pretty tall order.

 

I thought Mat felt off for about one chapter, and then I was fine with it.  The initial bits were a little jarring, but as I read more of his POV the more it seemed to flow.  It's almost like Brandon tried too hard to make this fake-goofy Mat pop off the page all at once in effort to show the audience "See, see, Mat is trying to pretend like nothings changed but he's failing!"  Almost like he's trying to prove he is following the notes and instructions.  But in throwing it all out there quickly it was a little off-putting.

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I loved Mat in TGS. First time I read it I might have had a fleeting thought that this was a slightly different Mat, but overall I was immensely satisfied with Mat in TGS.

The only thing that really struck me as "off" in TGS was uniform across all parts of it, including the Mat chapters: differing choice of words from what RJ would have used. Words such as "devil," "damned" and "kingdom" really jarred me -- especially "kingdom" to refer to a nation in the Westlands, since many of the nations aren't even proper kingdoms (i.e. ruled by a king). BTW, this also means that Ch.  48 "Reading the Commentary" was probably Brandon's work. And it was really good, the profuse usage of "kingdom" non-withstanding.

 

I honestly thought chapter 34 "Legends" was spot on: the dichotomy between Mat and Verin was absolutely priceless, and because of the word choice I referenced earlier it's obvious that it was largely written by Brandon. I would have like to have seen Mat thinking to himself when Verin told him that Saidin was clean, but perhaps the absence of self-reflection enhanced exactly how hard it hit him.

 

Mat was supposed to be different (from RJ's notes). But he's still the same Mat we (and Brandon) all love. Perhaps my favorite line in the book was from Mat:

Ch. 27 "Night in Hinderstap"

...but Mat just turned back to the village below. "The answers are there," Mat said. "Thom, you're with me. Talmanes, watch the women."

"We have little need of being 'watched,' Matrim," Joline said grumpily. (ew...adverb at the end of a sentence, but let's ignore that for now)

"Fine," he snapped. "Thom, you're with me. Joline, you watch the soldiers."

I had to put the book down from laughing the first time I read that. Can't wait for more Mat..............

 

EDIT: spelled "Hinderstap" wrong. Keep wanting to write "Hinderstrap."

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I loved Mat in TGS. First time I read it I might have had a fleeting thought that this was a slightly different Mat, but overall I was immensely satisfied with Mat in TGS.

The only thing that really struck me as "off" in TGS was uniform across all parts of it, including the Mat chapters: differing choice of words from what RJ would have used. Words such as "devil," "damned" and "kingdom" really jarred me -- especially "kingdom" to refer to a nation in the Westlands, since many of the nations aren't even proper kingdoms (i.e. ruled by a king). BTW, this also means that Ch.  48 "Reading the Commentary" was probably Brandon's work. And it was really good, the profuse usage of "kingdom" non-withstanding.

 

I honestly thought chapter 34 "Legends" was spot on: the dichotomy between Mat and Verin was absolutely priceless, and because of the word choice I referenced earlier it's obvious that it was largely written by Brandon. I would have like to have seen Mat thinking to himself when Verin told him that Saidin was clean, but perhaps the absence of self-reflection enhanced exactly how hard it hit him.

 

Mat was supposed to be different (from RJ's notes). But he's still the same Mat we (and Brandon) all love. Perhaps my favorite line in the book was from Mat:

Ch. 27 "Night in Hinderstap"

...but Mat just turned back to the village below. "The answers are there," Mat said. "Thom, you're with me. Talmanes, watch the women."

"We have little need of being 'watched,' Matrim," Joline said grumpily. (ew...adverb at the end of a sentence, but let's ignore that for now)

"Fine," he snapped. "Thom, you're with me. Joline, you watch the soldiers."

I had to put the book down from laughing the first time I read that. Can't wait for more Mat..............

 

EDIT: spelled "Hinderstap" wrong. Keep wanting to write "Hinderstrap."

 

I know exactly what you mean on the laughing part. About three times in Mat's chapters I laughed hysterically and put the book down. The wording I noticed the first time I read it, the second time not so much.

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Drekka Mort...ImpBo...

 

First, Drekka Mort...You said: ''''I do like Mat a lot, and I can definitely understand why some people look forward to more "original" Mat if you will, but its moments like these that make me feel a bit sorry for Brandon, knowing that some people were potentially disapointed with an awesome character. I suppose its one of those things that just happens sometimes.''''

 

AWESOME Point. While Brandon is a big boy and a professional author before starting TGS - and while we, by virtue of paying our money for the book, DO have the right to criticize, you DO have to feel for the guy a little bit. ... This is truly a HUGE set of shoes (Mr Jordan's) that he has stepped into and Mat is MANY folk's favorite character...Mr Sanderson is already being analyzed like crazy over EVERY word of his compared to RJ's /// Sanderson is doing a GREAT overall job if the main thing that YOURS TRULY (I mean 'me') had to gripe about of TGS was Mat seeming slighlty 'off; in Brandon's very first WOT Book...well...life is pretty good and I really appreciate Mr Sanderson.

 

Yeah the important thing is that Mat wasnt ruined at all. We got plenty of the humour side of him, we got Mat slightly less in his Leader of the Band role, thats why he might have felt different I think. I think some of us mgith have been forgetting that he isnt jsut a Gambler or the Son of Battles. Hes still a 22 year old lad whos crucial in a very unknown way to the worlds survival. Hes had the Band, the Finns, Aes Sedai, and all sorts of crazy gallivanting to keep hm occupied up until now, but in TGS the signs of the Last Battle can be seen everywhere, Im not surprised Mat would have a bit of insecurity/begin to act a bit differently around a time like this.

 

Im glad we got another "Do I look like I need saving?" moment, I really had a good picture in my head of Mats jaw clenching and the heated reply "Well you're here arent you?" Awesome.

 

Also, the rant about women throwing blank dice, and every woman sides against you just because theyre women, like, even the woman whose grandmother hated your grandmother over some recipe dispute agrees that the dice say you lost... liked that.

 

I was just thinking, how good would it be if Mat briefly visits Rand in ToM and he meets Taim, and starts mocking him on him supposedly channeling for 5 years through the Taint and having been a False Dragon and whatnot? Like, seriously exaggerating like he does and really makes Taim look like an idiot? That would be awesome especially if Taim is Ishamael.

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The main problem was that Mat is often used for humor, and RJ and BWS had very different senses of humor--a problem that BWS alluded to in one of his post-TGS interviews.  RJ's humor was very dry, while BWS's is goofy, for lack of a better term. 

 

The perfect example is the aliases scene while they were planning to go into the village.  That struck me as not only discordant with Mat's character, but also as the dumbest scene in the entire series.  A lot of people like it, and that's fine, but it's not my sense of humor at all, and nothing RJ ever would have done.  Even if the initial idea was his, he never would have executed it in the slapstick, over-the-top, hit-you-on-the-head-with-how-funny-this-is manner that BWS did.  The opening monologue at the very first of Mat's chapters is another instance of that. 

 

It's not BWS's fault, and it's not something that can really be corrected, it's just an inevitable consequence of shifting authors.  Unfortunate, but a far cry better than not getting the series finished at all.

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The main problem was that Mat is often used for humor, and RJ and BWS had very different senses of humor--a problem that BWS alluded to in one of his post-TGS interviews.  RJ's humor was very dry, while BWS's is goofy, for lack of a better term. 

 

The perfect example is the aliases scene while they were planning to go into the village.  That struck me as not only discordant with Mat's character, but also as the dumbest scene in the entire series.  A lot of people like it, and that's fine, but it's not my sense of humor at all, and nothing RJ ever would have done.  Even if the initial idea was his, he never would have executed it in the slapstick, over-the-top, hit-you-on-the-head-with-how-funny-this-is manner that BWS did.  The opening monologue at the very first of Mat's chapters is another instance of that. 

 

It's not BWS's fault, and it's not something that can really be corrected, it's just an inevitable consequence of shifting authors.  Unfortunate, but a far cry better than not getting the series finished at all.

 

But the aliases...they were hilarious... :(....

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The perfect example is the aliases scene while they were planning to go into the village.  That struck me as not only discordant with Mat's character

 

How so? Wouldn't be the first time that Mat invented aliases. Remember "Tom Grinwell" from TDR and that he invented all their aliases and backstories for the circus stay in CoT. Now, writing all this down would go against real Mat's character - but then again, one of the guys who provided him with memories was a poet, IIRC, so maybe it were just this guy's habits acting up.

 

BTW, another hilarious Mat moment from TGS (paraphrasing) : Talmanes, who is staring at Joline's assets : "Burn me!" Mat: "She almost did!".

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If you'll read carefully, you'll see I didn't say it was out of character for Mat to come up with aliases.  I said it was a break from RJ's sense of humor to have the (alleged) comedy of it played up so blatantly.  Neither of the other examples you cite use aliases for over-the-top humor.

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Excluding the long "women are mules" monologue (which I really didn't like) I liked Mat in tGS. I lol'd quite a few times. He wasn't the same, but he was still good. But the reason Mat was funny before was because most of the time he had no clue that he was being funny. He spent a lot of time refusing to accept reality, and convincing himself of things that made him feel comfortable. And that was always funny. He rarely ever purposely said something funny, and he did a lot of that in tGS with Talmanes.

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