Mesaanas identity - A new approach?

[Lambada]

Just had a thought.

 

Messana obviously can't have impersonated a long-time Aes Sedai. But given how long most people are trained as novices / Accepted, I'd wager that the Aes Sedai will know most well enough to spot any impersonation flaws - Given how few novices / accepted there are (were).

 

Thus, perhaps Messana is not strictly impersonating someone.

 

What if she went and became a novice, and was accelerated through like the 3 wonder girls were. Perhaps this acceleration could have been done because of her skill and good learning skills (she was a scholar) after all, or perhaps the Messana ordered the BA to accelerate this novice through quickly for reasons that they weren't told.

 

In this case, perhaps it is worth looking at anyone who has either been raised through quickly (or just in the series so far), or shows unnaturally quickness at learning (if she hasn't been raised yet).

 

Can anyone think of someone whom this could fit?

[DaughterOfNight]

 

I like to entertain the idea that Mesaana is not a sister but possibly an Accepted or such.  I've thrown out the idea that she is a Novice ... and even though BS has told us to consider how one could beat the Oath Rod, I wonder about about those in the Tower who did not have to take the Oaths.  Novices, Accepted, Servants, AS out of the tower, etc.

 

There is a topic, a few days old, about this very idea you have.

[Lambada]

 

I like to entertain the idea that Mesaana is not a sister but possibly an Accepted or such.  I've thrown out the idea that she is a Novice ... and even though BS has told us to consider how one could beat the Oath Rod, I wonder about about those in the Tower who did not have to take the Oaths.  Novices, Accepted, Servants, AS out of the tower, etc.

 

There is a topic, a few days old, about this very idea you have.

I think you mis-understood slightly.

I'm not claiming that she is a novice / accepted. Just that she was a novice/accepted for a very short time and thus we should be looking at sisters who were raised quicker than normal (possibly during the span of the books themselves).

[Majsju]

 

I like to entertain the idea that Mesaana is not a sister but possibly an Accepted or such.  I've thrown out the idea that she is a Novice ... and even though BS has told us to consider how one could beat the Oath Rod, I wonder about about those in the Tower who did not have to take the Oaths.  Novices, Accepted, Servants, AS out of the tower, etc.

 

There is a topic, a few days old, about this very idea you have.

I think you mis-understood slightly.

I'm not claiming that she is a novice / accepted. Just that she was a novice/accepted for a very short time and thus we should be looking at sisters who were raised quicker than normal (possibly during the span of the books themselves).

 

Well then, lets hear some names...

[Lambada]

 

I like to entertain the idea that Mesaana is not a sister but possibly an Accepted or such.  I've thrown out the idea that she is a Novice ... and even though BS has told us to consider how one could beat the Oath Rod, I wonder about about those in the Tower who did not have to take the Oaths.  Novices, Accepted, Servants, AS out of the tower, etc.

 

There is a topic, a few days old, about this very idea you have.

I think you mis-understood slightly.

I'm not claiming that she is a novice / accepted. Just that she was a novice/accepted for a very short time and thus we should be looking at sisters who were raised quicker than normal (possibly during the span of the books themselves).

 

Well then, lets hear some names...

Why do you think I ended the first post with "Can someone think of anyone who could fit".

 

The two raised by Egwenes decree came to my mind (but I doubt it), and I don't have the time to browse through every snippet of infomation related to every Aes Sedai mentioned - it is 12:45am here!

[Majsju]

 

I like to entertain the idea that Mesaana is not a sister but possibly an Accepted or such.  I've thrown out the idea that she is a Novice ... and even though BS has told us to consider how one could beat the Oath Rod, I wonder about about those in the Tower who did not have to take the Oaths.  Novices, Accepted, Servants, AS out of the tower, etc.

 

There is a topic, a few days old, about this very idea you have.

I think you mis-understood slightly.

I'm not claiming that she is a novice / accepted. Just that she was a novice/accepted for a very short time and thus we should be looking at sisters who were raised quicker than normal (possibly during the span of the books themselves).

 

Well then, lets hear some names...

Why do you think I ended the first post with "Can someone think of anyone who could fit".

 

The two raised by Egwenes decree came to my mind (but I doubt it), and I don't have the time to browse through every snippet of infomation related to every Aes Sedai mentioned - it is 12:45am here!

 

Let me save you some time. Other than the wonder girls, there is not a single Aes Sedai raised during the span of the books raised so fast it would in any way stand out.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I can't think of any accepted  or novice been raised or accelrate through training as quick as the supergirls. I can't recall a mention of such a person and surely they would of been mentioned a few times if they had near the same skill as the supergirls.

Maybe I just missed the references, its quite possible.

Can you see a forsaken taking such a lowly position though. Penaces, trips to mistress of novices and slow classes. That would be very humilating and frustrating.

[Kathleen]

the only ones I can think of were in the little tower, and mesa was said to have been in the real WT not the rebel camp.

[Lambada]

 

I like to entertain the idea that Mesaana is not a sister but possibly an Accepted or such.  I've thrown out the idea that she is a Novice ... and even though BS has told us to consider how one could beat the Oath Rod, I wonder about about those in the Tower who did not have to take the Oaths.  Novices, Accepted, Servants, AS out of the tower, etc.

 

There is a topic, a few days old, about this very idea you have.

I think you mis-understood slightly.

I'm not claiming that she is a novice / accepted. Just that she was a novice/accepted for a very short time and thus we should be looking at sisters who were raised quicker than normal (possibly during the span of the books themselves).

 

Well then, lets hear some names...

Why do you think I ended the first post with "Can someone think of anyone who could fit".

 

The two raised by Egwenes decree came to my mind (but I doubt it), and I don't have the time to browse through every snippet of infomation related to every Aes Sedai mentioned - it is 12:45am here!

 

Let me save you some time. Other than the wonder girls, there is not a single Aes Sedai raised during the span of the books raised so fast it would in any way stand out.

I only said possibly during the books.I never stated that they had to be raised during the books. Just that they had to be raised quickly.

 

Some who have been mentioned as being raised quickly: Elaida a'Roihan, Moiraine Damodred, and Siuan Sanche all spent three years as novices and three as Accepted before being raised Aes Sedai. The standard is 10 years as a novice, and 10 as an Accepted. So quick raisings do happen - it's just uncommon. I'm still looking for more though.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Even if the went twice as fast as Elaida or Moraine, they still would be quite noted amoung the Aes Sedai. Even so has three years passed since the forsaken escaped their imprisonment? I just cannot see Mesaana posing as noivce or even an accepted. She already has issues with how people precieve her abilities. The whole I'll teach them in reference to the time she was refused a chance to research at collem dan(spelling) shows how prickly she is. She wouldn't be able to keep her cover.

[Majsju]

 

I like to entertain the idea that Mesaana is not a sister but possibly an Accepted or such.  I've thrown out the idea that she is a Novice ... and even though BS has told us to consider how one could beat the Oath Rod, I wonder about about those in the Tower who did not have to take the Oaths.  Novices, Accepted, Servants, AS out of the tower, etc.

 

There is a topic, a few days old, about this very idea you have.

I think you mis-understood slightly.

I'm not claiming that she is a novice / accepted. Just that she was a novice/accepted for a very short time and thus we should be looking at sisters who were raised quicker than normal (possibly during the span of the books themselves).

 

Well then, lets hear some names...

Why do you think I ended the first post with "Can someone think of anyone who could fit".

 

The two raised by Egwenes decree came to my mind (but I doubt it), and I don't have the time to browse through every snippet of infomation related to every Aes Sedai mentioned - it is 12:45am here!

 

Let me save you some time. Other than the wonder girls, there is not a single Aes Sedai raised during the span of the books raised so fast it would in any way stand out.

I only said possibly during the books.I never stated that they had to be raised during the books. Just that they had to be raised quickly.

 

Some who have been mentioned as being raised quickly: Elaida a'Roihan, Moiraine Damodred, and Siuan Sanche all spent three years as novices and three as Accepted before being raised Aes Sedai. The standard is 10 years as a novice, and 10 as an Accepted. So quick raisings do happen - it's just uncommon. I'm still looking for more though.

 

For your theory to work, it must be someone raised during the span of the books, because when the series start, Mesaana is still sealed in the Bore.

 

Looking at timing, Mesaana could at the very earliest get to the WT sometime in TGH.

Also, the Aes Sedai would know pretty much exactly where every Accepted even remotely close to the shawl stood, so any sudden leaps, in either strength or skill, would raise a huge amount of talk.

[Kaman]

Just as a point of timing I did a "ideal Seek" for Mesaanas' name and the first time she gets a mention is in the tSR glossary. The second time is in the FoH glossary. She doesn't become an active part of the series till LoC when her name is referenced 34 times.

 

This is one of the passages most often looked at when people try to reason out Mesaanas true identity.

 

CoS  Prologue

 

  "To each she knelt, and only Mesaana had appeared with an inhuman face. This cloak of shadow and light must be woven with the One Power, but Alviarin could see no weave. She had felt the strength of Lanfear and Graendal, had known from the first instant how much stronger in the Power they were than she, but in Mesaana she sensed . . . nothing. As if the woman could not channel at all.

  The logic was clear, and stunning. Mesaana hid herself because she might be recognized. She must reside in the Tower itself. On the face of it, that seemed impossible, yet nothing else fit. Given that, she must be one of the sisters; surely she was not among servants, bound to labor and sweat. But who? Too many women had been out of the Tower for years before Elaida's summons, too many had no close friends, or none at all. Mesaana must be one of those. Alviarin very much wanted to know. Even if she could make no use of it, knowledge was power."

 

So, you can either take this at face value that Mesaana is a long forgotten sister recently returned after Elaidas mutiny in tSR...or you can see this as a red herring thrown in by RJ to keep people guessing. The fact that Mesaana is referenced in the glossarys of tSR and FoH may seem to indicate that Mesaana is an active background caracter of books 4 and 5 but under an assumed name.

 

The two most likely candadates as put foreward by the Encyclopedia-WoT is either the red sister Tarna Feir, or the brown sister Danelle. I personlly prefer Tarna as she was sent to the rebel camp in tSR, though that point doesn't get mentioned till LoC. The glossary clues just seem to fit the timeline of Tarna Feir better. 

[DemandredFO]

I prefer Danelle but whatever.

What really wanted to say is I find it impossible that Mesaana was a Novice or accepted because all the foresaken like to be in charge, Rahvin, Be'lal and Sammael made themselves at the top for that reason

[yoniy0]

I personlly prefer Tarna

But Tarna had a PoV in KoD. Do you think she could have concealed her true identity?

[Kaman]

I personlly prefer Tarna

But Tarna had a PoV in KoD. Do you think she could have concealed her true identity?

 

Perhaps not, but it's been since KoD was published that I have read it. I am currently doing a listening to all the audiobooks but I'm only starting aCoS so I still have sometime before I get back to KoD. I only base my preference on previous beliefs and to be honest I didn't even remember Tarna having a PoV till you mentioned it. Also there are so many Mesaana/Tarna references within a few chapters of each other that at first glance it appears they may be connected, (as per a Encyclopedia-WoT side by side comparison). This could easily be coincidence since they both become important caracters in LoC and are not mentioned before that, also I just finished listening to LoC less than a week ago so it is fresh in my mind.

[DaughterOfNight]

 

I like to entertain the idea that Mesaana is not a sister but possibly an Accepted or such.  I've thrown out the idea that she is a Novice ... and even though BS has told us to consider how one could beat the Oath Rod, I wonder about about those in the Tower who did not have to take the Oaths.  Novices, Accepted, Servants, AS out of the tower, etc.

 

There is a topic, a few days old, about this very idea you have.

I think you mis-understood slightly.

I'm not claiming that she is a novice / accepted. Just that she was a novice/accepted for a very short time and thus we should be looking at sisters who were raised quicker than normal (possibly during the span of the books themselves).

 

No, I did not misunderstand you at all... Actually, I like your theory a bit more than mine if only because it elaborates my original ideas.  I always post late at night, brain dead so my comments are never well thought out or cohesive, anyway.  :)

Also, my original reply wasn't specifically directed to you... just to whomever would listen to my nonsense.

[Fains nose]

There was a scene were mesaana is shown building a tower out of dominos and one of the forsaken comments that mesaana took pride in being able to build it purely with her knowledge of stresses and levers. Now consider that female merchants, engineers arent uncomon in randland, and that the builders that were doing some work on a library that were involved in overthrowing siuan. Could mesaana be posing as a female architect/engineer on elaidas palace?

[lews reborn]

There was a scene were mesaana is shown building a tower out of dominos and one of the forsaken comments that mesaana took pride in being able to build it purely with her knowledge of stresses and levers. Now consider that female merchants, engineers arent uncomon in randland, and that the builders that were doing some work on a library that were involved in overthrowing siuan. Could mesaana be posing as a female architect/engineer on elaidas palace?

 

 

|Thats what i always thought. Considering Mesaana was hiding her ability to channel shows that she wasn't AS. You could say that she Didn't want other AS knowing her ability but is it possible you hide the extent of the power you could channel? If she was AS she would have to be stronger then most other AS and they're only a few that can fall into that category. Also BS said to think of ways to cheat the oath rod. what better way then not to take the oaths in the first place.

[Demiandre]

Or the head architect of Elaida's palace...

 

But it would be strange to hide her capacity while hiding under a non-channeling alter ego. It would have been clever to appear at full strengh. Alviarin would never have guessed in the first place, because she knew no sister had that strengh in the OP. So she wouldn't try to betray her. As Verin says and Elza does, a BA could throw a Forsaken down if they have a way to justify it. And Alviarin as BA could have found a reason stronger than Mesaana's mad plan discovered in the prologue of tGS. And not many way to be kept in touch with what happens, and way to interact with sister to web some plots.

 

So definitely I would say a sister. Not Tarna. Because of her PoV where she states her fear at discovering Asha Man while riding toward Tar Valon after her trip to Salidar. If she was Mesaana, she wouldn't have been there by horse, but with Travelling. And that statement in itself makes me think it is not one of the Forsaken, because we generally don't have so many details in BA PoV, as Verin, Liandrin (in the first books), or others.

[yoniy0]

Considering Mesaana was hiding her ability to channel shows that she wasn't AS.

Actually, RJ said that while not many know how, it is possible to appear weaker than you actually are without masking your ability altogether.

 

Demiandre, I think she did that to hide the glow of the Power around her, so as to make her appear more mysterious.

[mossman87]

I'll eat my hat if it isn't Danelle.

There's only so many red herrings you can throw out, after so much going for her, how can you explain:

 

A: Danelle in the Siuan coup, and the smirk she gave Siuan being the main thing for me.

and

B: Danelle letting in the masons to kill.

 

What have we seen of Danelle to ever know why she was a part of that, let alone why would she smirk at the Amyrlin?

If that was all we had of Danelle I wouldn't be bugged so much by the top two questions here, but since all the other mounting evidence, I can't let the behavior go here, and it just seems obvious to me.

[Lambada]

I'll eat my hat if it isn't Danelle.

There's only so many red herrings you can throw out, after so much going for her, how can you explain:

 

A: Danelle in the Siuan coup, and the smirk she gave Siuan being the main thing for me.

and

B: Danelle letting in the masons to kill.

 

What have we seen of Danelle to ever know why she was a part of that, let alone why would she smirk at the Amyrlin?

If that was all we had of Danelle I wouldn't be bugged so much by the top two questions here, but since all the other mounting evidence, I can't let the behavior go here, and it just seems obvious to me.

*cough*Taimandred*cough*

After that, i'm not sure what I'd put past RJ.

[mossman87]

I'll eat my hat if it isn't Danelle.

There's only so many red herrings you can throw out, after so much going for her, how can you explain:

 

A: Danelle in the Siuan coup, and the smirk she gave Siuan being the main thing for me.

and

B: Danelle letting in the masons to kill.

 

What have we seen of Danelle to ever know why she was a part of that, let alone why would she smirk at the Amyrlin?

If that was all we had of Danelle I wouldn't be bugged so much by the top two questions here, but since all the other mounting evidence, I can't let the behavior go here, and it just seems obvious to me.

*cough*Taimandred*cough*

After that, i'm not sure what I'd put past RJ.

 

Yeah but we were told we should know by now who Mesaana is.

[yoniy0]

Yet there obviously is no consensus. RJ's notions of what is or isn't obvious were slightly skewed :)

[mb]

Danelle vs Tarna, Danelle seems to make more sense out the two of them.

 

In one of the Forsaken meetings, Mesaana told that she liked Belal's plan.

Based on that comment, she seems to have been around since Dragon Reborn.

 

First appearance/mention of Tarna is chronologically before that.  (New Spring)

Danelle, chronologically after.  (Shadow Rising)

 

 

These criteria I think can narrow down the list of candidates::

-First introduced at or after Dragon Reborn but not any later than Crossroads of Twilight

-A female channeler

-Has always been at White Tower