Elaida's Foretelling and The Fall of Taim

[yoniy0]

Good grief, why oh why do people refuse to listen to Nicola?

The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

There will be both Aes Sedai and Ashaman after TG is over. Both orders will survive, and if I'm reading this right, they won't merge.

[Vermillion]

Balance could mean intergration.  If I had all female waiters and wanted balance, I could hire an equal number of men.

 

I think the black tower will be destoryed much as the white has been.  Then I think they will have a seperate but equal cooperative.  Traveling makes distance mute.  Might even have standing gates between the two.  The AM provide justice and protections while the AS do aid and diplomacy. 

[Val Mickey]

0 = 0

If they're both wiped out, they'll still balance each other. Not that I think it will, but something to consider.

[Ishmayl]

I really, really like this theory, and the main reason is for this section of your theory:

 

I'm not the biggest fan of Aes Sedai, but they haven't done a thing right in a long time. They've been used and beaten by Aiel, Sea Folk, Black Ajah, Rand, Asha'men, Seanchan and a few others besides--and rightly so. Those of you who read my thread on the Life and Times of an Aes Sedai; A Study in Stupidity  know my thoughts on them as whole.

 

But still, I wouldn't mind seeing them have some victories. And not stuff won by the Wondergirls, but victories for the old guard of Aes Sedai. They've been through the fire, and their stupidities are being exposed and dealt with, if slowly in some cases. Now we needed to remember why Aes Sedai were once respected. We need to see in them the strength and capability that crafed the original aura of the Servants of All. We need to see that they can be redeemed. Not remolded, like what Egwene's doing to them. I want to see if they, in themselves, can be redeemed.

 

I think it would be a beautiful scene of ironic awesomeness to finally see the Aes Sedai kick some important ass.

 

Unfortunately, I believe most of the theory rings of the speculativeness of Terez', or even - dare I say it? - Dida's theories  (I keed!  I keed!), so I doubt it would happen. :(  But I would love it if it did!

[michael1941]

the only thing not good about that theory is thaat taim has about 100 ashaman with him, so i doubt that 10 aes sedai can take on a hundred ashaman.

[PhoenixAngel]

After a LOT of reading and forum lurking......

 

Min has viewed numerous times that Logain carries an aura of a golden halo over his head indicating that he will one day attain great glory, saying that it is a glory above all other men. Also, Egwene once had a dream in which Logain steps over Rand's corpse, sits on a throne and laughs maniacally, while Rand's corpse collapses into leaves. Min also knows that Alivia (spelling) the strongest living female, will help Rand die.

 

I do not think these three things can in any way be ignored in the future. Somehow Rand dies with Alivia helping and Logain continues on to his glory.

 

Body swap ?

[Paerish Swar]

I want to stir up the pot a bit.

 

"The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds."

 

[aCoS; Prologue, Lightnings]

 

Ok, let's get back to one of the original questions here.  Who is gunna do the rending?  With the blood and the fire and the such & such?

 

If the word "fire" is representative of the use of the One Power, how could that play out?  What are our options?

 

Aes Sedai

 

If it is the Aes Sedai who are already there, Faolain and Pevara and the rest, most all of them are bound by the Three Oaths.  So the only way they could attack the Black Tower is if, 1) the Asha'man directly threaten their lives and the lives of their sisters, or 2) they come in to some definitive proof that Taim and his cronies are darkfriends (as Luckers pointed out).  They would never be able to initiate an attack without one of those things occurring first, and I wonder if there are enough of them there to even survive an offensive from Taim.

 

Egwene could always go on the offensive, but she would have to first get some evidence about the nature of Taim and the BT.  The Oaths here again.  It is possible that Egwene could track down some solid evidence about darkfriends in the BT, which could justify her making that decision.  That could also play in to the "knowing her anger" part, and Egwene could also use the opportunity to strengthen her relationship with the Reds.

 

It would be interesting to see how either of those possibilities might play out.

 

Not to say that it is not possible for the Aes Sedai to be the ones doing the rending . . . but, if that is so, I just have to wonder (again, as Luckers did) why the Foretelling says "The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds?"  Why wouldn't it be flipped around to say, "Sisters will walk the grounds of the Black Tower, and it will be rent in blood and fire?"  Is this a point against Aes Sedai being the ones to do the rending?

 

I don't necessarily think it makes any difference at all, but I have to put the question out there again.

 

Asha'man

 

If it is not the Aes Sedai who are rending the BT in "fire" (meaning the One Power), then perhaps it will be the Asha'man themselves.  There could be a revolt among the non-dark Asha'man within the Tower proper (perhaps "inspired" by the Sisters?), or Rand could send in some "troops" to take the BT back from Taim.  Maybe that could be how Logain gets his glory.

 

Elayne

 

And then there is Elayne.  Let us not forget that the BT is right on her doorstep and there are many incentives for her to make sure they are not a danger.  She has a store of angrael and ter'angrael, and a whole lot of unbound channelers at her disposal.  I like throwing this one in there, because Elayne's "silence" in the last book is just as concerning to me as the silence and absence of the sisters sent to the BT.  They are pretty darn close to each other, and there could always be a correlation.  (Perhaps, though, something like this would be a little too irresponsible, even for Elayne ;))

 

Seanchan

 

I guess the Seanchan are always a possibility, but I like this one the least.  So . . . that's enough for them.

 

Wild Card

 

What about Mat?!

 

He is certainly very, very close to the BT right now.  He is building those Dragons, whose pattern of destruction could certainly qualify as "rending in blood and fire."  He also has this uncanny knack for saving the necks of women who can channel.  (Although, Mat's trip to save Moiraine would make the timing for this very difficult.)

 

Well . . .

 

I'm not at all sold on the Mat, Elayne, or Seanchan possibilities.  I do think it is more likely to be Aes Sedai and/or Asha'man.

 

I just wonder about these things because sisters have been walking the grounds of the BT for books now.  What's the big deal in that anymore.  The Foretelling doesn't say who is going to initiate the conflict at the BT, so I think we might want to talk about everybody who could have a legitimate opportunity to make it happen.

 

I personally think the "know her anger" part might be hinting at a joint venture between Rand and Egwene to purge the BT (Maybe led by Logain and Siuan, working together again?).  The first truly cooperative action between Aes Sedai and Asha'man as institutions that could get everybody prepared for cooperation to fight Tarmon Gaidon.

 

That's just my crazy little theory about this.  

[TheAngryDruid]

While I find the theory interesting, and do like the part about the AS redeeming themselves, I don't agree.

 

First, seems a bit too reliant on grammatical interpretation. It's all one sentence so it has to happen together. That conclusion may end up being correct, but I think it is a rather thin reed. And even if it is, I won't necessarily buy into a correlation between it being right and it being one sentence (a correlation but not necessarily causation).

 

Second, the Amyrlin's anger could be about anything (truce with Seanchan, bonding sisters w/out permission, having sisters swear oaths of fealty), I don't think it is necessarily related to the BT.

 

Third, while I do agree that it would make sense for Egwene to talk to Rand about the fate of the BT delegations (and Seanchan, and TG), I'm not sure it will happen.

 

Last, I'm of the opinion the thing Cadsuane will teach Rand and the AM that they won't like learning is that they should (and maybe must) cooperate with female AS to get things done right. I believe this will play out during the whole BT affair. She'll glean some of it from her group's bonded Warders, and some from Logain's bonded AS, and put it together. This points to a coordinated AS/AM raid on the BT. From Rand's side: Logain and his AS + Cadsuane & her Asha'man will lead the charge. All those ter'angreal/angreal in her hair are just too useful not to use is this context (Nynaeve's too).

 

If Eggy is involved, she'll have someone too. Aldelorna (sp?) perhaps?

 

Anyway, I think we'll still get a showdown with Logain involved, but I think Luckers could also be right that the old guard AS still redeem themselves (Caddy + the Green Head Aldelorna + Pevara + rebel embassy).

 

[Skeeve the Great]

I personally dont like Elaida's "Foretelling". It's all fishy to me. She has the only unique Foretelling ability that apparently even Messaana didn't believe (you know, the one from Age of Legends? Where thousands, if not millions, Foretellers were roaming around for free?).

 

The whole thing "This I Foretell" and being able to remember what she said screams haux. Another things that annoys me most, is that she Foretells in pretty much normal manner, it's totally different than any other Foretellings that we saw in the books.

 

As good ol' Lord Gareth said in book 1 (I'm paraphrasing): "All she said nothing more than any of us can see with our own eyes". That's pretty much sums what I think about Elaida's Foretelling - bunch of common sense wrapped under disguise.

 

8)

[DemandredFO]

First, I think Logain's glory will be as the Dragon Reborn.  If Rand lives I think he'll fade and Logain will be remembered as the DR, except by those who've directly interacted with Rand.  I think the Asha'Man will lead with Pevara assisting or she will fetch the OR to free sisters.  Surely Tiam knows the limitations of the oaths or the Foresaken do and he will not act against the embassay with violence unless he can be assured of a killing stroke.  So that is why I think the oaths need to be circumvented or removed.

 

[yoniy0]

Skeeve, we've seen an Elaida PoV, and she truly believes in her Foretellings. You may argue that she's deranged, but she's not attempting fraud.

And I don't see why we're to assume that her Foretellings aren't true. She identified Rand on sight (she kept a part of that Foretelling to herself, you'll remember, which is the reason Morgase took it the way she did), she knew that the Andoran royal line will be crucial at TG, it all seems to fit.

[horus17]

my theory on Rand facing the Amyrlins anger is this... rand is a close friend of the Amrylin, who's Egwene now, so he faces her anger and maybe they make a pact. or at least its someone he knows from childhood, so he's more open to having direct contact. she is the only Amyrlin that he could possibly deal with face to face, and w/o the fear of being tricked. well, tricked into capture or submission i mean. she could trick him into an Aes Sedai plot, but i digress. but Moiraine did say not to trust anyone who wears the shawl now. egwene wasnt wearing the shawl at that time.

 

just saying

[Durinax]

my theory on Rand facing the Amyrlins anger is this... rand is a close friend of the Amrylin, who's Egwene now, so he faces her anger and maybe they make a pact. or at least its someone he knows from childhood, so he's more open to having direct contact. she is the only Amyrlin that he could possibly deal with face to face, and w/o the fear of being tricked. well, tricked into capture or submission i mean. she could trick him into an Aes Sedai plot, but i digress. but Moiraine did say not to trust anyone who wears the shawl now. egwene wasnt wearing the shawl at that time.

 

just saying

he doesnt trust egwene, he knows she's not at all the girl from back home, she's AS to the core, he stated such in TSR I believe

[The Desert Pea]

Pevara Being Awesome

 

During the tGS signing tour Brandon said these two things.

 

Hopefully we’ll get to see more of Pevara being awesome, but that could possibly appear in a novella on Brandon’s web page that will fill in some missing holes. But no promises!

 

7. Question: Please tell me all you can about the potential novella that fills in holes? What holes? Who? Where will it be published if written? Is this material that you really wanted to include in ToM or TGS but just couldn’t fit in? How does this match up with your feeling about not writing other stuff in the WOT world?

 

7. Answer: There are about 50,000 words of secondary plots that Sanderson wants to include in ToM. He’s just not sure all of it will get into the book. If something gets cut, he’d like to get to his fans on his website.

 

I think you can guess where I am going. Pevara gets free, or is free--frees the other sisters, and leads them against Taim in an awesome display of blood and fire either killing him, or at least kicking him out of the Black Tower, much as Egwene did with the Black Ajah.

 

This is the one part of the theory that I have a problem with, and not because it's Pevara going to town on the Black Tower and not Logain. If Pevara is going to rend the Black Tower in blood and fire in her awesomeness, doesn't that seem like a huge secondary plot that shouldn't even be considered to be left out of the book? It would be the climax of the Black Tower storyline, which I don't think would be left to a few paragraph flashback in a character's inner monologue. Other than that though I absolutely love this theory.

[Vermillion]

Maybe Mats letter has something to do with the BT and a dark friends.

[DaughterOfNight]

 

Elaida's Foretelling; the Idiot Savant

 

Ok, so here is Elaida's Foretelling on the subject of the Black Tower, amongst other things.

 

"The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds."

 

[aCoS; Prologue, Lightnings]

 

What Went Wrong With The Aes Sedai At The Black Tower

 

The Reds and the Rebels both send sisters to the Black Tower, after which they go silent and we hear nothing from them.

 

"Mother," Romanda said, "I have made the inquires you requested. There has been no contact with those sent to the Black Tower. Not a whisper."

 

"Does this strike you as odd?" Egwene asked.

 

"Yes, Mother. With Traveling they should have been there and back by now. They should have at least sent word. This silence is disturbing."

 

[tGS; 45, The Tower Stands]

 

So what changed? I very much doubt that the Aes Sedai fought each other--we see Loyalist and Rebel Aes Sedai encounter each other several times, and whilst they might hiss a bit they don't take it further--I see no reason why, at the Black Tower of all places, they suddenly changed that. Furthemore its just as unlikely a Lightbound Asha'men, under the pain of Rand's orders, would have attacked them. And from that each side would have been quite careful to maintain the peace. Which only leaves Taim. But why would Taim suddenly change his mind about what to do with the Aes Sedai?

 

 

 

Hello!  I am known to misinterpret ideas and skew scenes in my mind, remembering them slightly different than they actually were in the books.  That being said, here is my idea about the above comment regarding the rebel and loyalist AS in Taim's camp.

 

I think that, aside from the fact that the AS were bound by the Asha'man, both the rebel and loyal AS found themselves in a difficult position.  Despite their feuds with each other, given the situation they're all in, they now have a common link to each other -- that being imprisonment.  Like the Aiel, who put their blood feuds aside to fight in unison for the Dragon, the imprisoned AS can relate to each other despite their White Tower affiliations. 

 

Ugh... broken thoughts, I'm sorry!

[Ataxia]

I like this theory. It also reminds me of Perrin's opinion of how AS/women should be treated, like when he got into an argument with Rand. If the Two Rivers men at the Black Tower see how they are being treated, I bet you they will be the ones to free them. This could lead to the massive fight. And since the women would be linked with the TR men, they would chase them away.

[Luckers]

Ok, a couple of people have raised objections about the resolution of the Black Tower plot being too large to be a secondary plot--much less one that would happen outside the book. Well that's not precisely true. That it is secondary doesn't make it minor--and even were it in the book it would still be termed a secondary plot. We know this from the jacket. The main two plots of ToM revolve around Mat and Perrin. From there we have all the other plots. The secondary ones--and we know ToM involves far more of those than tGS.

 

Which brings us to cutting it. Brandon said the problem is that this plot may not fit in ToM--which makes sense. At 50,000 words this plot is huge for a secondary plot. I mean think about it. The book, when he finished it, was about 359,000 words. This 50,000 would have taken it over 400,000, which he stated Tor would prefer he not do. He is currently cutting down, and obviously if he can achieve his desire of below 310,000 words it would make the inclusion of the extra 50,000 words not excessive.

 

So think of it this way--he had to cut down, he could have removed several different, smaller secondary plots--in which case he'd have no practical way of getting them to us, and would have an issue in terms of how those plots interacted with the story at large--or he could cut one of the big secondary plots, which he could then make into a self-contained novella and give it to us through his website.

 

This in fact makes more sense in terms of both cutting, and plans to give it to us. For that to work it had to have a story to it, on its own. A progression, and a genuine climax.

[horus17]

Egwene may not be the same girl from the Two Rivers, but Rand has dealt with Nyn lately, and shes a complete bitch. what i'm saying is, Egwene is AS to the core but she knows that Rand is the only one that can defeat the DO, so she knows that certain exceptions must be made. AND, he should trust her, per Moiraine's statement that he cannot trust anyone wearing the shawl. She wasn't wearing the shawl, and now she's the Amrylin Seat. She commands the AS, and if thats the case, she should support Rand.

 

So, I see this... Rand acts like a dick and pisses off Egwene. He faces her anger and they come to an agreement that satisfies both of them. and since i'm drunk, i can't figure out what they agree on. maybe, they agree to make Jager the official drink of Randland?

 

hahahahaha

[DaughterOfNight]

 

So, I see this... Rand acts like a dick and pisses off Egwene. He faces her anger and they come to an agreement that satisfies both of them. and since i'm drunk, i can't figure out what they agree on. maybe, they agree to make Jager the official drink of Randland?

 

hahahahaha

 

ha ha ha... I embarrass myself when I post on this forum because 90% of the time, I am not quite sober either. =)  My problem is that I read in bed to fall asleep and I come up with all these questions or theories, only to forget them completely when I come here to chat.  Maybe I could just write these things down as they come to mind but that means moving from my comfy spot in bed and inconveniencing myself.  And, knowing me, I'd totally forget what I was thinking before I found a pen and paper.

 

Cheers to that!!  Or toke some 'tabac' to that!! =)

[Durinax]

Egwene may not be the same girl from the Two Rivers, but Rand has dealt with Nyn lately, and shes a complete bitch. what i'm saying is, Egwene is AS to the core but she knows that Rand is the only one that can defeat the DO, so she knows that certain exceptions must be made. AND, he should trust her, per Moiraine's statement that he cannot trust anyone wearing the shawl. She wasn't wearing the shawl, and now she's the Amrylin Seat. She commands the AS, and if thats the case, she should support Rand.

 

So, I see this... Rand acts like a dick and pisses off Egwene. He faces her anger and they come to an agreement that satisfies both of them. and since i'm drunk, i can't figure out what they agree on. maybe, they agree to make Jager the official drink of Randland?

 

hahahahaha

just cause egwene didnt hold the shawl when moraine told him that doesnt mean he can trust her, we can name X amount of women who didnt hold the shawl back then. Plus because Egwene is AS to the core is the core reason he cant trust her, she believes he has to be controlled instead of helped

[algspkr]

just cause egwene didnt hold the shawl when moraine told him that doesnt mean he can trust her, we can name X amount of women who didnt hold the shawl back then. Plus because Egwene is AS to the core is the core reason he cant trust her, she believes he has to be controlled instead of helped

 

I just finished a reread of TGH and at the beginning when Suian and Moiraine tell Rand "A tool is not demeaned when it is used" or something like that I wanted to scream at them that they, and their White Tower was the tool and that Rand was the user.

[Hadilmir]

The only problem I have with this theory is your interpretation of "The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds." You seem to believe that this must refer to the Black Tower as a location, but to me it makes more sense if applied to the Asha'man themselves. Dumai's Wells and repelling the Seanchan at Illian both took place after the foretelling (Correct me on Dumai's Wells if I'm wrong) and directly involved blood, fire, and men of the Black Tower. One of Taim's lackeys comments on how the Asha'man may dislike being treated as replaceable tools in battle and this may indeed have torn allegiances between Taim and Rand. If you use Illian as the initial rending in blood and fire then the timing for sisters walking the BT's grounds is easily acceptable.

 

I know that the order of events is messed up if you use the last sentence first, but we've seen no signs that Foretellings must happen in chronological order. Of course, what you've theorized on Pevara is still plausible using my logic. It would be interesting if the Amyrlin's Anger was caused by a battle between the captured Aes Sedai/Embassies and Taim and his cronies.

[Duskfire]

just cause egwene didnt hold the shawl when moraine told him that doesnt mean he can trust her, we can name X amount of women who didnt hold the shawl back then. Plus because Egwene is AS to the core is the core reason he cant trust her, she believes he has to be controlled instead of helped

 

I just finished a reread of TGH and at the beginning when Suian and Moiraine tell Rand "A tool is not demeaned when it is used" or something like that I wanted to scream at them that they, and their White Tower was the tool and that Rand was the user.

 

Yeah on my reread too and its amazing how Suian and Moiraine are basically wrong about everything early on. Its kind of amusing :P

[mossman87]

The BT will be destroyed, the Asha'man and Aes Sedai will both join together in Tar Valon, becoming Great Arvalon (Gray Tar Valon = Saidin as Black, Saidar as White) like in those Fourth Age passages speaking of the Great Arvalon.  Time will turn, names will change as usual, Tar Valon, Avalon, Great Arvalon, etc etc.