[DPR Mafia] Suras 4 - Mafia wins!

[Red2111]

Deadline

Friday, July 9th

 

Vote Count

Adella (13): Lily, Pookie, Barm, Tigs, Tayla, JLM, Alys, Hybrid, Nae, Aemon, Pete, Lav, Amadine

Lily (2): Verbal, Red

Alys (2): Wombat, Meesh

Meesh (1): pandy

 

No Lynch (2): Al Jenn, Jeran

 

no vote (12):  Lia, Rose, MCS, Danya, Dae, Crusher, Rey, Ed, Aust, Adella, Red, L13

 

I'm sorry.  I thought I had made it clear that I was talking about the story--people wanted to assign town to beva and mafia to bova based on the story, which I think is ridiculous, we don't have THAT much to go on in the story.  Lynching Adella should help a bit, but it still takes concrete evidence from the game itself to prove what's going on with the factions and the alignments, not just the story.

 

Now that that's cleared up.

 

I do agree with the question you posted, I'm kind of confused about how the vote is going to work.

 

Again, because our votes at the end of the game determine who wins (Town or Scum) I have to disagree.  Making Beva & Bova actual players in the game thread would make winging this game way to easy … and this is Wes were talking about.  Do you really think he’d make it that easy on us??

 

So since the two candidates are NPC’s the only way we can find out which is the wrong choice is by relying on the story. 

 

You are right that determining a players alignment because her faction seems scummy in the scenes is the wrong way to go; there are unknowns to account for like manipulators, moral delima’s, recruits, false readings and any other number of curve balls Wes coul throw at us.

 

And I also agree that right now in the story there just isn’t enough info to determine which candidate is scum because we don’t know the motives of all 3 factions nor how much influence the manipulators actually have over the candidates.  Except maybe Bova, I think it’s pretty clear what is motivating him from his first scene.

 

Rose, I know I'll be next to swing if she is anything but what I said she was. That really is all the backup we need, isn't it?

 

This hit the scumdar rather hard.  Why would we automatically assume your scum if she comes up as mafia?  With the manipulators being in all the factions anyone could easily swing both ways in the corners report.

 

But implying that she automatically clears you if she’s comes up as Bonda Perrada reeks of a set up of some sort.

 

First off - Pete you didn't even address the whole matter of Lily's viewing results, which she posted before you presented this case? Can you tell us your thoughts on that? Or why you'd neglect to put that in your case?

 

Second, regarding your notes on Talya - I need some clarification for myself. I was assuming since we all got one viewing ability, that there wouldn't be a finder in the game. Can anyone say otherwise?

 

Now, I have to say I practically worship Pete's prowess in mafia and I've learned a lot playing from him! But this seems to me like some big difficulties in his post. I was actually fairly suspicious of Lily before Pete's case, and I almost wonder if this was a gambit between the two of them.

 

There is a litmus test of sorts for Lily - it seems Adella is accruing the majority of the votes, and if she flips as Lily claimed she would, we'll have at least part of an answer. My problem right now is - I don't feel like I have a great understanding of what exactly this Bonda designation is. Yes yes I can read what Lily posted just fine - but are we sure that the mafia is aligned with the Challenger/Bova and that town is aligned with Minister/Beva? And are we really certain that there is actually a neutral faction? I read through a lot very quickly, and I might have missed these details. If anyone could give some more information, I'd be very appreciative!

 

I have to agree with Aust on Petes evidence against lily.  Imo most of what he addressed was already cleared up.  But petes case on her doesn’t change where she ranks on my scumdar, especially with recent developments. But I think it’s a stretch to claim gambit between them.  If they’re on the same team I’d call it more of a team mate distancing himself from a fellow to avoid suspicion; imo right now I don’t believe either is the case.

 

You’re correct in your thinking about the abilities and such, it’s listed in the OP.

 

And lily is correct in everything she pointed out here, though she lacked to include one important detail, the manipulators.

 

Amber liquid is poured into the bottom fourth of each glass, and as soon as 10 are filled, hand reach in to take one.

 

“To our impending victory! As none of these fools even begins to suspect what is actually happening, I see little to stand in our way!”

 

Nods of assent are the only response as each glass is drained.

 

Then, one by one, each member left the room and went forth into the night to take their place in the scheme.

 

Which shows that there is a 3rd party manipulating things and gives problem to claiming one faction = scum.

 

While I believe [glow=red,2,300]Lily’s[/glow] viewing, I find her leaving out the bit about the manipulators as well as trying to say Adella showing as Bonda Supporter would clear her is more scummy than Adella atm.  And I’d rather vote for a person I feel is scummy than someone slightly scummy and mostly info.

 

Er, just to clarify, did you really mean the HP mafia game ended, or that the night phase ended?  I am mildly confused, just want to be sure. :D

 

Lol was only night phase ;)  seems to be the game that will never end though.  I’ve condensed the deadlines so it will move faster. 

 

Basically my internet has been crazy and I didn't read about her viewing. I still don't believe it 100% or even 85% to tell the truth. I think it is a little to convenient and the way Lily coupled her viewing with fishing for reactions seems off.

 

But I don't think everyone has a viewing, I think that is a guess that may or may not be true, but it has opened the door for an epic mafia win. That way if Player x is mafia they can say the viewed player y and clear them as innocent or get a dangerous player lynched. The can also keep reusing the role claim. I don't see Wes giving everyone a viewing because it would end the game rather quickly. Innocents can nominate someone for a viewing during day and run through people and then make for a rather quick defeat of the scum.

 

So I am not on board with the everyone gets a viewing thing.

 

pete you just moved up on my scumdar with this.  Its mostly your posts about game mechanics.  Either you truly didn’t see the posts Wes has or your giving us misleading info.  You’ve been quiet lately and I haven’t seen you much elsewhere on DM so I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

Check the OP, the stuff about the abilities are listed there, as well as in the sign up thread.

 

I remember seeing Wes say it somewhere, if you want I can dig through and try to find the quote; but the VK, Cop & Heal are only Night Actions, so they can’t be done during the Day.

 

What you imply with the viewings I don’t agree with.  It’s the same argument many of us have had against assigning people to view individuals when its been proposed. 

 

A. makes the mafia’s targets much easier

B. gives the mafia a lot more info we want them to have

C. we’d use up our views a lot faster.

 

All the scum would have to do is NK or VK the people viewing one of their team or even worse set people up by NKing the assigned viewers.  They’d lead us around by the nose!

 

This however

 

That way if Player x is mafia they can say the viewed player y and clear them as innocent or get a dangerous player lynched.

 

I do agree with.

 

Argh!  BONESTONE!!!

 

Sorry ....  bonestone.  Still doesn’t negate the fact that it affected my viewing in a negative way last night and in a sense I feel I’ve wasted it *sighs*

 

 

in a game of wifom, half claims mean questions. ;) did you view her or did someone on your team? *shameless*

Ha.  Someone who's had as much experience with mafia games as you have, surely has considered more possibilities than this, yet you act like those are the only options possible.

 

I don't trust you.  Also, I'll blatantly say that I think you're scum, fishing for information.

 

Since more people finally seem to be agreeing that alignment and faction aren't actually necessarily connected, I agree that Adella doesn't have to be the one lynched.  I think we'd still get her alignment, and it would give us some information, but not a whole extra amount, nothing totally special that we can't get from lynching someone else, for example.  Of course, the few of you who STILL think that Faction A=Scum Alignment and Faction B=Town, there won't be any convincing you until we lynch one of each faction and prove that there are townies in each one.

 

Anyway, so I feel fine unvoting and voting Alys again, because there is no one else pinging my radar more than she is right now.

 

Before Bela was NK’d there were only 3 options that you could know 100% what her alignment is. 

 

1 – on a team with her

2 – symp to her team (technically a team mate)

3 – viewed her and got back Captain

 

The Mod Whisper thing wasn’t introduced to the game as far as I know until after Bela’s lynch.

 

This is my first game with Alys, so I really don’t know if this is off for her or not; but I do think it’s a pretty easy assumption to make on assuming you gained the info by either being on a team with Bela or by viewing her.

 

If knowing the faction of a person does not bring us closer to finding scum, of what use is our one time finder ability? That just doesn't make sense to me. It's like have the ability to know the color of someones eyes. It might be cool to know, but useless in the long run.

 

It gives us info that will be useful to use when it comes to the win condition (ie picking our candidates)  Wes is leading us with bread crumbs, so we can’t expect a lot of info all at once.

 

If what Barm suggests is right, the manipulators will be trying to sway our votes toward their candidate (the scum candidate) while town aligned players who know their candidate’s name (masons maybe?) will be swaying us toward their candidate so we win.

 

And actually knowing the color of the players eyes does help; if at the end of the game your told what color the killers eyes are ;)

 

[aemonkristen]

Bah...

 

Edit: For our cop abilities how do we keep from duplicity checking if we don't say who we found innocent or captain. Also if someone does find scum should they VK them that night or tell us so we can lynch them?

 

 

Edit for Meesha:

 

Lena got a viewing result for 'Captain' which I believe to be the nuetral (Third) faction. I believe this since that isn't what I got last night.

 

I'm still curious what Al Jenn got for his reading. Lily got Bonda Perrada, JLM got Captain and Al Jenn got something that was neither.

[aemonkristen]

You are right that determining a players alignment because her faction seems scummy in the scenes is the wrong way to go; there are unknowns to account for like manipulators, moral delima’s, recruits, false readings and any other number of curve balls Wes coul throw at us.

 

Which shows that there is a 3rd party manipulating things and gives problem to claiming one faction = scum.

 

While I believe Lily’s viewing, I find her leaving out the bit about the manipulators as well as trying to say Adella showing as Bonda Supporter would clear her is more scummy than Adella atm.   And I’d rather vote for a person I feel is scummy than someone slightly scummy and mostly info.

 

If knowing the faction of a person does not bring us closer to finding scum, of what use is our one time finder ability? That just doesn't make sense to me. It's like have the ability to know the color of someones eyes. It might be cool to know, but useless in the long run.

 

It gives us info that will be useful to use when it comes to the win condition (ie picking our candidates)  Wes is leading us with bread crumbs, so we can’t expect a lot of info all at once.

 

If what Barm suggests is right, the manipulators will be trying to sway our votes toward their candidate (the scum candidate) while town aligned players who know their candidate’s name (masons maybe?) will be swaying us toward their candidate so we win.

 

And actually knowing the color of the players eyes does help; if at the end of the game your told what color the killers eyes are ;)

 

 

Do you not see the glaring contradiction in that post? You spent most of the post telling us how we cannot use faction to determine alignment and then turn around and say it will let us know which is the scum candidate at endgame? My vote stays on Adella. I want to see what happens when we lynch a Bonda Perrada

[LilyElizabeth]

Red, it's really simple. I don't think it's nearly as complicated as you think it is. I think there is a mafia, a town, and some who will be swayed one way or the other by means we don't know yet. You know how Wes loves to dish things out one bite at a time. We don't have all the info yet, I don't believe. If it is as complicated as you think, I have no hope of grasping it anyway.

 

And please, don't anybody say I'm too smart to be confused, yada yada. I'm so sick of that! Smart doesn't mean "can handle 80 million details." Some of you have seen how lost I get in complicated games when I'm town. And the stupid things I do to cover it. I'm tired of that. I'm playing my part, but don't ask me to play along with your trying to complicate things. I won't do it.

 

And, no, guys I'm not getting emo - just trying to explain something nobody ever wants to understand, nor do I expect them to want to this time. *sigh*

[aemonkristen]

*gasp*

 

You mean...you're not perfect?

 

*double-gasp*

[Red2111]

You spent most of the post telling us how we cannot use faction to determine alignment

 

for the soul purpose of leading a lynch on an individual player, as Lily is doing.

 

then turn around and say it will let us know which is the scum candidate at endgame

 

because once the corner's report roles out on a player and we see a town or mafia reading on them; we can see what Candidate they were pushing for (if at all) and use it to make a better judgment call on that candidates alignment.

 

I want to see what happens when we lynch a Bonda Perrada

 

agreed it's good info; all i'm advising is that we have to remember about the Manipulators who are the true Mafia.  Adella very well could be Bonda & Mafia, but she can just as easily by Bonda & Town.  

 

we can really hurt ourselves is we assume too much based on one our two people from a faction when there is a 3rd group (Manipulators ie Mafia) hiding within the factions and pulling the strings

[LilyElizabeth]

Thanks, Aemon.  :-*

 

[Red2111]

Red, it's really simple. I don't think it's nearly as complicated as you think it is. I think there is a mafia, a town, and some who will be swayed one way or the other by means we don't know yet. You know how Wes loves to dish things out one bite at a time. We don't have all the info yet, I don't believe. If it is as complicated as you think, I have no hope of grasping it anyway.

 

understandable. *snuggles*  but my vote stays ;)

 

i may be over thinking things, bubba tells me i do it all the time.

 

but i'm just looking at the things Wes is presenting us and trying to piece the puzzle together.  the fact that this is a political game as well as a mafia game tells me it's going to get complicated; and to tell you the truth, i love these types of puzzles.  logic, politics, and Mafia wrapped all in one nice neat package ... seriously, i'm drooling here *grins*

[Hybrid]

Argh!  BONESTONE!!!

 

Sorry ....  bonestone.

Psh.  No need to apologize.  I was just joking around (mostly).  :P

[Amadine]

I cannot see different members of each faction being aligned differently. That would just be weird. The Bonda Perrada want the Challenger to win and the Captains want the Minister's Man to win. Then there appears to be an undecided faction between them. Why can it not be as simple as scum, town and other?

 

I think this game is being talked up to be incredibly more convulted than Wes intended and he is probably sitting back laughing at us all LOL

[LilyElizabeth]

Red, it's really simple. I don't think it's nearly as complicated as you think it is. I think there is a mafia, a town, and some who will be swayed one way or the other by means we don't know yet. You know how Wes loves to dish things out one bite at a time. We don't have all the info yet, I don't believe. If it is as complicated as you think, I have no hope of grasping it anyway.

 

understandable. *snuggles*  but my vote stays ;)

 

i may be over thinking things, bubba tells me i do it all the time.

 

but i'm just looking at the things Wes is presenting us and trying to piece the puzzle together.  the fact that this is a political game as well as a mafia game tells me it's going to get complicated; and to tell you the truth, i love these types of puzzles.  logic, politics, and Mafia wrapped all in one nice neat package ... seriously, i'm drooling here *grins*

 

I know you love it as much as I hate it. Enjoy, sweetie. No matter what, I love ya!

[Talya]

Gee..that was a lot tpo get through and I'm supposed to be getting ready for work :D

 

I'm with Red on the Candidates, I don't think they are one of us. i think that we will choose Beva and Bova at the end (or whenever we want to vote). Otherwise one could easily be lynched or night killed off and then that leaves us with just one. Thats why I thought that those already given the 'supporter of ???' doesn't necessarily mean they were mafia/townie.

 

Pete - I'm interested to see where you thought I was role fishing on day one, I haven't done such a thing. By your posts you are looking quite sloppy, I know I miss things when I read, but thats not confined to Mafia, I have that issue you a lot. But you seem to have missed a lot. now I'm assuming that it is because you have rushed in here and had not much time, because I think if you were mafia you wouldn't be making these types of mistakes. However I could be proved wrong, and it could be a ploy!

 

Alys, someone said it before me, but as I was reading through, your helpfulness I usually see in most games is not around much. You seem to be thining so much in the box that it worries me, because I know that you play with a lot of intelligence and I have felt that you are holding back. I'm half tempted to change my vote to you. Now that we know that the mafia are mixed amongst the supporters Adella's lynch is not so important. Meesh had it right about why you were asking her about how she knew Bela was a Captain. I thought it was quite obvious, but you didn't even include that!

 

Anyweay it's work now, so I have to go...

 

 

[Pookie]

I cannot see different members of each faction being aligned differently. That would just be weird. The Bonda Perrada want the Challenger to win and the Captains want the Minister's Man to win. Then there appears to be an undecided faction between them. Why can it not be as simple as scum, town and other?

 

I think this game is being talked up to be incredibly more convulted than Wes intended and he is probably sitting back laughing at us all LOL

 

This is exactly what I think.  If there are Bevas who are town and Bovas who are town then don't some townies lose if the other candidate gets voted in?  How does that work?  

 

Quote from the rules:

One candidate will be Town. The other candidate will be mafia.

 

The Town wins if their candidate receives the majority of votes. The mafia win if their candidate receives the majority of votes.

 

This is the only win condition in this game.

 

So does that mean if the Beva candidate is town and loses that the Bova supporters who were town also lose even though the candidate they supported won?  I just don't get that.  To me it just seems like people trying to make things more confusing than they are so that they can claim they're "one of the good bad guys!" or some such.  I see Wes's posts talking about the manipulators being mixed in to all of the sides of the conflict, but can't seem to wrap my head around how the mechanics of that would work when we know there's one win condition.  The rules say so.  So what would the manipulators get out of it?

[Amadine]

Maybe there are solo win players thrown in as well which could be the manipulators?

[Barmacral]

Pookie... the Beva Perrada is the Minister's pick. The Bova Perrada is the rebel's pick. One of those two is mafia, and we don't know which. Our job is to determine who the mafia are and which one they support, and then vote for the other one. Thats the idea anyways. The mafia, who know which one is the scum option, are trying to sway our votes towards their candidate.

 

So, we know that the result of Bonda Perrada and the result of Captain has come up on viewings last night, based on what people have said, so I am curious, did anyone else get any other result than those two? Because taht would be REALLY handy information for the town to have. (I'm not saying reveal who you investigated, just what the result was)

[Adella]

Dirst of all, thanks to everyone who at least held off their vote until I could get online. I really appreciate it. After my argument with Pandy Day 1 and then not being able to get online I thought I was a goner. >.<

 

:o WOW! A loooot has been going on! I'm really trying to figure out who is subtly working together, and who just happens to agree with each other, but I guess I should try to save myself rather than speculate offhand right now. Obviously we now know that I have been told that I win with the Bonda side, since there is no way I could make the scum believe I might be neutral and a possible vote for Beva (am I getting these faction names right? WES YOU JUST HAD TO MAKE THEM SIMILAR DIDN'T YOU?!?! :P). I'm not gonna lie, I see the point in lynching me for the information, but I also think if some of you wanted the info that bad on me you could just VK me and lynch someone else who everyone could agree on as suspicious.

 

Wow. Okay... That's pretty much as much sense as my brain can make right now. I have been helping my sister in law get things ready for my nephews surgery in just over a week, working a ton cause our big Premier weekend is Saturday, and fighting what I think is strep throat and an ear infection... These are NOT excuses, I don't make excuses in mafia, I suffer the consequences of my actions, but I know some of you are my friends and may have been wondering where I have been. I have a long day tomorrow, and honestly am too tired to remember when the deadline is. If I'm still alive tomorrow night, let me know if I should have answered questions that were directed at me. I just had to catch up from page 9.

[Talya]

Adella, at the time I think there wasn't much else to go on and people felt that a lynch of someone would be viewed would try and give us some information.

 

Since then we have had the lady seeing the hearts of those with the Godstone. This has proven that the mafia (those that want to destroy the hall) are mixed in with either set of supporters.

 

So whilst there is still time [glow=red,2,300]Unvote[/glow] It doesn't mean I don't think you are mafia, but my reasons don't really exist now. And I feel you are suspicious the same as I see everyone else...this is mafia after all. :D

 

I think I will go with someone I'm actually more suspicious of. [glow=red,2,300]Alys[/glow]

 

Pookie, I think Barm summed it up. It doesn't matter what supporter you are at the beginning what counts is what alignment you are (town or mafia) and you will win if your Candidate wins (ie the Town won or the Mafia one).

 

Being a supporter does NOT mean you have to vote for the person you are supporting in the original PM from Wes.

[WWWwombat]

I wasn't too keen on this wagon but that defense is crap.

 

[glow=red,2,300]unvote[/glow]

[glow=red,2,300]Adella[/glow]

[WWWwombat]

Obviously we now know that I have been told that I win with the Bonda side

 

I am neither Bonda Perrada nor pro-Beva yet I know I win with the town.  I think if Adella were town, she wouldn't have said she wins with the Bonda Perrada side; I think she would say she wins with the town.

[WWWwombat]

Well actually, I suppose I could be pro-Beva, but if I am I wasn't told of it.

[JenLenaMom]

 

Obviously we now know that I have been told that I win with the Bonda side, since there is no way I could make the scum believe I might be neutral and a possible vote for Beva (am I getting these faction names right? WES YOU JUST HAD TO MAKE THEM SIMILAR DIDN'T YOU?!?! :P). I'm not gonna lie, I see the point in lynching me for the information, but I also think if some of you wanted the info that bad on me you could just VK me and lynch someone else who everyone could agree on as suspicious.

 

 

I was told I was town, there is only two win conditions, win with town or win with the mafia.

 

While the story makes it clear that there are dark forces hidden among all three factions it doesn't change the fact that the only win condition is based on the outcome of the election. Now maybe there are a few scum sprinkled through the undecided and beva's groups to try to sway them but it doesn't change that there is way more darkness around Bova (if I'm reading the scene correctly).

 

Also the clarification I got from DPR about my viewing made faction=alignment so I don't think it's that you can be town aligned but be in the Bova faction. (someone I think red suggested that)

[WWWwombat]

Glad to see someone else found that turn of phrase scummy.

[DPR]

 

Delightful. And more, much more is coming. heh

 

I'll be travelling much of the day, so the scene will be a few hours late tonight. But, 8 pm EST is the deadline.

 

So much more...

[JenLenaMom]

You scare me Wes, you really seriously frighten me.

[Naeann]

Red do you have some sort of post restriction where every single bloody post of yours has to be a mile long?  Jeez!!!

 

I also win with the town.  Didn't say anything about either Panda Bear or Ponda bear or whatever names those are. ;)