will the seanchan stop training damane

[michael1941]

do any of you think the seanchan will stop capturing marathdamane and stop using them as weapons?

[Tom Sawyer]

I think that the Seanchan on this side of the ocean will.  Tuon's going to start working for Rand and Rand's going to break the chains on all the damane here (well not here, but on the Randland side of the ocean).  If the story ends with the forces of Light defending the world with the help of a bunch of beaten down slaves, it will be particularly lame.  The damane need to be freed before Tarmon Gaidon.

 

There is a Mat and Tuon trilogy scheduled for afterwards, so I assume it will involve Tuon going back across the ocean and slaughtering thousands of innocents so the people over there will prostrate themselves before a useless bitch like her as opposed to whatever other useless bitch happens to have taken power over there.  Useless Bitch #2 will still have damane.

 

[MikeRiley]

They might stop hunting marath'damane but they won't free the ones they already have and Rand won't ask them to. He might request the return of the Aes Sedai taken during the White Tower raid but he can't afford Tuon's refusal when he absolutely needs that treaty. It also isn't likely because Elaida's plot had the feel of being final. She might get a cameo in the next two books but it won't be as Elaida again. Egwene and the White Tower abandoned her and I think we're meant to think "that's that."

 

The Seanchan in Randland plot is also unlikely to be wrapped up at the end of A Memory of Light. I believe the "The great battle done but the world not done with battle" foretelling refers to this plot and we'll not see its outcome - or even ever learn of it if Mat's trilogy goes unwritten.

 

But back to the damane. Remember the reaction the Seanchan damane have to their collars being removed. They absolutely believe they must be collared, just the same as the rest of the Seanchan.

[Morsker]

My guess is no. RJ liked writing about master-servant and master-slave relationships. Someone is always "breaking" someone else, or "bending knee", or whatever, and all attempts at seeking freedom and independence fail, or lead to megalomania like Rand's in tGS. The WoT universe runs on submission and oppression. Perhaps the damane system will be "reformed", but there'll be no joyous liberation of slaves, or anything so satisfying.

[Durinax]

My guess is no. RJ liked writing about master-servant and master-slave relationships. Someone is always "breaking" someone else, or "bending knee", or whatever, and all attempts at seeking freedom and independence fail, or lead to megalomania like Rand's in tGS. The WoT universe runs on submission and oppression. Perhaps the damane system will be "reformed", but there'll be no joyous liberation of slaves, or anything so satisfying.

if you liberated all of them right now, the hwole tower or be busy working to rebuild the women.

 

its kind of funny how Paendraeg thought them a threat and ended up making them into a real threat to the security of his empire

[Leonem]

Here's an idea that may be a bit off: maybe the one person that changes the Seanchan use of channelers is Elaida - she might just be the very first woman ever who resist the a'dam and does not surrender to it. She is certainly one of the most stubborn person they ever collared, and at least a little bit mad on top of that.

[Skeeve the Great]

Here's an idea that may be a bit off: maybe the one person that changes the Seanchan use of channelers is Elaida - she might just be the very first woman ever who resist the a'dam and does not surrender to it. She is certainly one of the most stubborn person they ever collared, and at least a little bit mad on top of that.

 

Remember how Alviarin abused this so-called "stubborn" woman?  ;)

[yoniy0]

Brandon strongly implied that Elaida won't be able to resist the Seanchan. He said we will see her again in ToM, after being asked if she'll be able to keep Traveling from the Seanchan.

[Luckers]

Yeah, Elaida wasn't stubborn, she was hard. Difficult to bend but easier to break. I suspect the Wise One's will present a challenge to the sul'dam though. The Seanchan will not think to shame them--why bother shaming a pet--and their methods deal with normal pain very well.

 

Two of my ideas for the BUT (before I settled on the Unseen Eyes) might relate to this question.

 

 

Egwene Being Handed An A’Dam In A Dream

 

A hard-faced Seanchan woman handed her a silvery bracelet and necklace connected by a silvery leash, an a'dam. That made her cry out; Seanchan had put an a'dam on her once. She would die before letting it happen again. [LoC; 15, A Pile of Sand]

 

Egwene clearly takes this as just a nightmare, and not a true dream, but it is curious—wouldn’t the Seanchan woman be trying to leash her in a nightmare, not giving her the a’dam? And notice the description of bracelet and necklace—the hard faced Seanchan woman (Fortuona) gives both bracelet and necklace to Egwene. Could this indicate somewhere down the line that Fortuona will choose to send sul’dam and damane to the Tower for training?

 

The Ongoing Principal: The issues the Seanchan are having with the sul’dam damane system are referenced constantly. The revelations about the sul’dam, Elayne’s plan to send sparked sul’dam back to be leashed, Bethamin and Seta training with (and presumably to be) Aes Sedai... Yes, its ongoing.

The Discussion Factor: Never discussed, not even on the WoTFAQ dreams listing.

Revelation Requirements: Yes, I could see why we should have noticed.

Presence in the Later Books: Yes—at least things related to it are building.

Potential Impact: sul’dam and damane trained as Aes Sedai?

Other Thoughts/Problems: Could connect to the Carlinya dream below spelling out a new method of dealing with channelers in the Empire. Trained as Aes Sedai then serve as property with great authority, like the Seekers. However, I do not possibly see how this could come to play out as early as ToM. There is way too much that needs to happen first. The seeds are there, but this is down the line.

 

 

Carlinya’s Raven Tattoo’s

 

Min sees stylized drawing of ravens around Carlinya that she thinks is a tattoo in book 5. In book 4 we learn that the Raven tattoo is a symbol of being property of the Crystal Throne. Aes Sedai being property of the Empress in that manner is weird—the ravens bring with them prestige and power, and I doubt that a simple damane would be marked so, even were she direct property of the Throne—indeed, in book two it is stated that most damane are the direct property of the Crystal Throne. None seem to be marked with the ravens.

 

Beyond that the references to the problems that the Empire will have with the sul’dam issue appear at the same time.

 

The Ongoing Principal: To a degree, yes. The issues that make the viewing of the ravens are referenced often, but the ravens on Carlinya are never mentioned again.

The Discussion Factor: Not really, AFAIK.

Revelation Requirements: Yes, I can see why we should have taken note after the ravens on the Seekers and Deathwatch Guard were explained in book four.

Presence in the Later Books: Not directly, though the way the ravens and the issues with the sul’dam are referenced fits very neatly with the BUT not becoming more relevant, but indications still being there.

Potential Impact: Potentially this spells out the new way in which channelers will be dealt with by the Empire—Aes Sedai that serve as property sort of in the same way the Deathwatch Guard or Seekers do—with honour and freedom. This could have big ramifications.

Other Thoughts/Problems: Possibly connects to Egwene’s a’dam dream. Like it, though, I don’t see how this could possibly come to play at the front in ToM. It requires a massive shift in perception by Fortuona and the Seanchan—and whilst the seeds of that shift are certainly there, and growing strongly, they still have a long way to go. As such I doubt this is the BUT, but rather something that would/will be dealt with in the Outriggers.

 

 

 

 

[mb]

Part of the Seanchan collaring damane seems to arise from the Seanchan treating people as property.

Whether they stop might depend on whether that stops.

 

[MikeRiley]

Yeah, Elaida wasn't stubborn, she was hard. Difficult to bend but easier to break. I suspect the Wise One's will present a challenge to the sul'dam though. The Seanchan will not think to shame them--why bother shaming a pet--and their methods deal with normal pain very well.

 

Almost exactly how Fain put it in the Fires of Heaven prologue, too.

[Leonem]

I suspect the Wise One's will present a challenge to the sul'dam though. The Seanchan will not think to shame them--why bother shaming a pet--and their methods deal with normal pain very well.

 

How would you square that with TGS Chapter 15 - the Shaido Wise Ones being shown off to Rand's delegation? I am not sure if the Seanchan captured any non-Shaido Wise Ones yet, but they don't seem to have too much difficulty with the Shaido they got.

 

Neither did they have too many problems taming Aes Sedai, including BA ones, so I would think that in order to defeat the a'dam. you probably need to be at least moderatly insane. Stubborn may not be the right word for her - English is not my first language - but Elaida certainly believes against all hints and facts and drawbacks that she will win in the end. She might continue to believe that even being collared.

 

On the other hand, it's possible that I am just desperately trying to find some useful end for all the drawn out power struggle between one useless bunch of channelers and another even more useless one. :)

[Shadow Rider]

I think Egwene will get all the Female channelers.

Including Seanchan & Seafolf.

 

[DemandredFO]

How do you mean?

[Shadow Rider]

Egwene will bring all f/channelers to the tower release all Damane

[Luckers]

I suspect the Wise One's will present a challenge to the sul'dam though. The Seanchan will not think to shame them--why bother shaming a pet--and their methods deal with normal pain very well.

 

How would you square that with TGS Chapter 15 - the Shaido Wise Ones being shown off to Rand's delegation? I am not sure if the Seanchan captured any non-Shaido Wise Ones yet, but they don't seem to have too much difficulty with the Shaido they got.

 

 

I don't see a contention there. The Wise Ones were brought out were they could be seen. So what? The Aiel method of dealing with pain won't break the a'dam. The women are still prisoners, and will be led where they're led.

 

Neither did they have too many problems taming Aes Sedai, including BA ones, so I would think that in order to defeat the a'dam. you probably need to be at least moderatly insane. Stubborn may not be the right word for her - English is not my first language - but Elaida certainly believes against all hints and facts and drawbacks that she will win in the end. She might continue to believe that even being collared.

 

The Aes Sedai are neither trained in dealing with pain. Indeed their sense of elitism makes them more easily broken by far than Wise One's who live in the world.

 

And Elaida's former certainty in her own opinion will make her shatter all the faster.

 

 

[Wantanswers]

I doubt the Seanchan can break the Wise Ones. They will laugh when they are tortured. Till now only Perrin has managed to break Aiel. Wise Ones are even stronger as Maiden of the Spear

[Leonem]

I don't see a contention there. The Wise Ones were brought out were they could be seen. So what? The Aiel method of dealing with pain won't break the a'dam. The women are still prisoners, and will be led where they're led.

 

So here's what I am referring to:

 

Corana locked her stare for a moment, then wilted, turning away. "Pardon, Wise One," she finally said. "I have toh. But you should know that the Seanchan had Aiel in their camp."

 

"What?" Aviendha asked.

 

"They were leashed," Corana said, "like their tame Aes Sedai. They were being shown off like prizes for our arrival, I suspect. I recognized many Shaido among them."

 

Amys hissed softly. Shaido or not, Aiel being held as damane was a grave insult. And the Seanchan were flaunting their captives. She gripped her dagger.

 

I would say that this clearly says that the embassy party and the Wise Ones with Aviendha believe that the Shaido Wise Ones weren't just captives, but leashed damane. So does the EWoT summary of this chapter, by the way.

 

Do you suggest that the Seanchan put up a big charade, showing off Wise Ones as damane that actually weren't? Why on earth would they do that? And why would these Wise Ones play along? I don't think we have had any indication of that.

 

As to Elaida, well, maybe the a'dam really cannot be defeated, I just thought it was a nice idea to have her do something useful in the end. For what it's worth, she could also be made damane and given to Egwene as a peace gift if and when she makes a truce with the Seanchan.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on June 19, 2010, 10:38:31 PM

I don't see a contention there. The Wise Ones were brought out were they could be seen. So what? The Aiel method of dealing with pain won't break the a'dam. The women are still prisoners, and will be led where they're led.

 

So here's what I am referring to:

 

 

Quote

Corana locked her stare for a moment, then wilted, turning away. "Pardon, Wise One," she finally said. "I have toh. But you should know that the Seanchan had Aiel in their camp."

 

"What?" Aviendha asked.

 

"They were leashed," Corana said, "like their tame Aes Sedai. They were being shown off like prizes for our arrival, I suspect. I recognized many Shaido among them."

 

Amys hissed softly. Shaido or not, Aiel being held as damane was a grave insult. And the Seanchan were flaunting their captives. She gripped her dagger.

 

I would say that this clearly says that the embassy party and the Wise Ones with Aviendha believe that the Shaido Wise Ones weren't just captives, but leashed damane. So does the EWoT summary of this chapter, by the way.

 

Do you suggest that the Seanchan put up a big charade, showing off Wise Ones as damane that actually weren't? Why on earth would they do that? And why would these Wise Ones play along? I don't think we have had any indication of that.

 

What are you talking about? I never said they weren't leashed--of course they were leashed. The Aiel method of dealing with pain is a mental technique--it won't shatter the a'dam in a glorious display of lightning and thunder.

 

The point here is about not being broken to the a'dam, not breaking the a'dam. That the Wise Ones were seen leashed is not to say they've been broken. Perhaps they will be, but it would take more time than that.

 

As to Elaida, well, maybe the a'dam really cannot be defeated, I just thought it was a nice idea to have her do something useful in the end. For what it's worth, she could also be made damane and given to Egwene as a peace gift if and when she makes a truce with the Seanchan.

 

The a'dam may or may not be defeatable, but Elaida is the least likely to succeed in doing so.

[farthammer]

They Seanchan will probably send her back to the WT in a delivery package once they get to know her.  Capture the leader really doesn't work too well if you are actually doing the enemy a favor.

[Leonem]

What are you talking about? I never said they weren't leashed--of course they were leashed.

 

Oh, so you're implying that they sit there happily, letting themselves being shown off without any visible struggle, and wait instead for the fun of being tortured privately in order to prove to themselves how strong they are?

 

Well, this is going nowhere, I think. To me, the scene we've seen shows clearly that the Seanchan have made some Shaido Wise Ones damane. Collaring and breaking and everything. Any other interpretation is just too far fetched for me to imagine.

[Shadow Rider]

They Seanchan will probably send her back to the WT in a delivery package once they get to know her.  Capture the leader really doesn't work too well if you are actually doing the enemy a favor.

 

LOL!...thats a good one.

[Tel Janin]

I doubt the Seanchan can break the Wise Ones. They will laugh when they are tortured. Till now only Perrin has managed to break Aiel. Wise Ones are even stronger as Maiden of the Spear

 

I believe that technically speaking, the part I bolded above is incorrect.  Perrin is merely the only one we've seen break an Aielman.  I'm quite certain the Aiel know how to break the Aiel.  Even the Wise Ones accompanying Perrin told him it would take time.  This implies that it can be (and has been) done.

 

My two coppers.

[Durinax]

I doubt the Seanchan can break the Wise Ones. They will laugh when they are tortured. Till now only Perrin has managed to break Aiel. Wise Ones are even stronger as Maiden of the Spear

 

I believe that technically speaking, the part I bolded above is incorrect.  Perrin is merely the only one we've seen break an Aielman.  I'm quite certain the Aiel know how to break the Aiel.  Even the Wise Ones accompanying Perrin told him it would take time.  This implies that it can be (and has been) done.

 

My two coppers.

well I think its reasonable to say He's the only one who has quickly broken an aielman. I am sure that in the waste they wouldnt have tried such methods