Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Lews Therin—Our Friendly Neighbourhood Madman


Luckers
 Share

Recommended Posts

Lews Therin—Our Friendly Neighbourhood Madman

 

Suggested to have begun as early as the Eye of the World, but certainly present by the Shadow Rising Rand has been experiencing the seepage of memory and knowledge from his past life as Lews Therin. At around the same time—though more heavily in the Fires of Heaven—Rand begins to hear a voice which has the mannerisms and knowledge of Lews Therin. Whilst the memories are without a doubt real, in older days there was considerable discussion about the voice. Currently that discussion revolves around the Real Madness Theory and the Construct Theory, which are as follows.

 

The Real Madness Theory: suggests that Lews Therin is a real and viable facet personality of Rand’s soul, and the one which ruled the soul during its incarnation as Lews Therin, which has manifested due to the Taint.

 

The Construct Theory: suggests that the Lews Therin voice and personality are not real. It suggests that Rand, emotionally stunted, desperate to harden himself, and receiving memories from the past has gathered those memories and created the LTT personality to hold them. That is where the name comes from—Rand constructed Lews Therin from memories and his own psychological issues.

 

Now I’ll expand on both of these in a second, but first let me explain a bit more about the history of theories on this subject.

 

A Brief History of Madness

 

Prior to KoD the landscape was very different, and three major theories predominated. For full details on these theories read 2.1.6: Is LTT for Real, or is Rand Insane? Where did LTT go in ACOS? but here is a short run down of the theories.

 

The Rebirth Theory: suggested that Lews Therin manifested as a natural part of the cycle of rebirth. The support for this was that we’ve seen other sorts of manifestations in this form—the Old Blood, Birgitte, Mat’s memories. The problem with this was no where else do we see what occurs with Rand. Mat has memory seepage from other lives, without any LTT-type antics. Birgitte never struggles with Maerion. The counter argument was often, well maybe Rand is special—he is the Light’s Champion. This may be a natural weapon built into the Dragon’s Soul [This counter argument often revolved around the Third Man being a Dragon before LTT, but as we know he turned out to be Moridin].

 

The Taint Theory: suggested That the Lews Therin manifestation was a pure insanity. Just a normal schitzophrenic. The support for this theory was mostly in Cadsuane’s comments about men who can channel hearing voices. We're talking run of the mill normal madmen, no special ingrediants. As such the problem is that this didn’t explain why Lews Therin so often seemed to know things Rand had no way of knowing.

 

The Construct Theory: was the middle ground, and you can see why it’s appealing. This allows for the 'realness' of the memories suggested by the Rebirth Theory, but the insanity of the voice suggested by the Taint Theory. Rand’s mental instability and emotional regression causes the subconscious construction of a fake personality which wraps itself around the memories and serves as a mouthpiece for both them and Rand’s subconscious desires. I will expand more upon the Construct Theory in a moment.

 

The Premise Problem

 

Notice that all three pre-KoD theories presume that the voice is either real, and not a result of the Taint, or not-real and caused by the Taint. The concept that the voice could be both real, and a madness resulting from the Taint, was generally shut down. This is because of the perception that a madness or insanity involves delusions. In the real world if a man tells you he's hearing voices, he's delusional (unless its God. He has something of a get out of jail free card on this), and that perception transferred itself whole to the Wheel. If the voice were a madness, its a delusion, and not real--which is where the Construct Theory swept through to explain the very real memories.

 

The Real Madness Theory takes a different viewpoint.

 

The Real Madness Theory

 

Can An Insanity Be Real?

 

Funnily enough, the perception that an insanity involves only things which are not real is not even truly accurate in the real world—which is why psychologists speak of Abnormal Psychology and not of insanity—but in WoT we don’t even need a philosophical discussion on what is and is not real to answer it. We have this instead.

 

Support For The Real Madness Theory

 

Take it away Semirhage.

 

"He's insane," she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min's knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. "Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin's voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be . . . abrupt."

 

[KoD; 27, A Plain Wooden Box]

 

In this world the manifestation of a real past life personality is a genuine mental illness, one which can cause a descent into terminal madness.

 

But Semirhage is an Evil, Filthy, Lumpy Forsaken!

 

I have seen it claimed often that Semirhage lied, usually for the purpose of spreading distrust in his followers with the suggested danger of Rand going terminally insane, and based on the evidence that she’s one of those untrustworthy Forsaken.

 

Alright then, lets consider her statements.

 

1. He hears a voice in his head. True.

2. That voice has the knowledge and personality of his past life. True.

3. The way to resolve this is reintegration. Seemingly true—this seems very much in tune with what we witness occur in tGS.

4. This voice can result into a descent into terminal madness. Uncertain, yet likely. Rand certainly was growing more unstable in tGS despite the Taint no longer existing.

 

Now, leaving aside the various arguments that might be offered to apply her words to the Construct Theory, there’s this simple fact—those are some damn good guesses if she was making it up. Consider, if Lews Therin’s voice is not real, her guessing that Rand constructed a voice to speak for the memory transfer (which should have been her assumption if voice manifestation were not real) is pretty out of this world.

 

Lews Therin agrees with this.

 

Rand tried not to think too hard about the things Semirhage had said on the day when Rand had lost his hand. She was one of the Forsaken; she would say anything if she thought it would bring her target pain.

 

She tortured an entire city to prove herself, Lews Therin whispered. She has killed a thousand men a thousand different ways to see how their screams would differ from one another. But she rarely lies. Rarely.

 

[tGS; 1, Tears From Steel]

 

So yes, for all that she’s a nasty Forsaken, her claims seem pretty on the ball. In any case you can see why this completely destroyed the Rebirth and Taint theories, at least in their distinct and pure forms. It also provides us with the idea that permits the Real Madness Theory. Specifically, the concept that just because Lews Therin is real does not make him any less of a madness.

 

The Taint

 

The next problem people seem to have is in the question of ‘if the Taint caused Lews Therin to appear, why aren’t other Asha’men displaying knowledge of super secret weaves’?

 

Taint Induced Madness

 

By the same note as the above question; why haven’t we seen other Asha’man display the reversion to childhood that Morr suffers? Why didn’t more have delusions of spiders crawling all over him as that other unfortunate man suffered?

 

The answer to all this lies in the fact that the Taint is not a type of insanity in itself. What the Taint does is destabilizes people’s mental states. It induces them to go mad—or perhaps pushes them away from being sane is a better way to look at it—but the type of insanity they then suffer is in their court. Predisposition to mental illness is not an unknown concept, and that's very likely the cause of the distinct differences between forms of mental illness. It's likely also the reason for the different time-frames in which men sucumb to the insanity. Some men would be more highly pre-disposed then others.

 

In any case the point here is that the Taint doesn't induce a type of madness, it simply breaks your sanity, and the madness you then fall into is any amongst the myriad of normal forms of insanity. Additionally, its more than possible that one of the other men who have gone insane due to the Taint did  suffer this same form of insanity. Semirhage states its very rare, but it easily could have happened. Men hearing voices is a common form of Taint madness--any of them could have been hearing a past life voice, but not everyone has as epic a past life as Rand does. For instance if the last life you lived was as a baker, attaining those memories aren’t really going to make a splash in the world.

 

The Construct Theory

 

Ok, so you must have been wondering why I went into all that detail about dead theories. It’s because from a post KoD perspective its hard to explain why the Construct Theory was such a strong theory. Back then it provided a solid answer for how Rand could hear a voice, be insane from the Taint, and still have that voice be real. It combined the valid points from the Rebirth and Taint theories, and answered the flaws in both. From there it followed up with quotes which did suggestively sustain the idea that Lews Therin was a construct of Rand’s mind.  Essentially Lews Therin expressing the emotions or ideas which Rand was refusing to let touch him as he endeavoured to grow stronger…

 

 

"In his room at The Counsel's Head, Rand sat on the bed with his legs folded and his back against the wall, playing the silver-mounted flute Thom Merrilin had given him so long ago. ... The tune was called 'Lament for the Long Night', and he had never heard it before in his life. Lews Therin had, though. It was like the skill at drawing. Rand thought that should frighten him, or make him angry, but he simply sat and played, while Lews Therin wept."

 

[WH: 25, Bonds, 481]:

 

You can see how this might be applied to the Construct Theory. The problem is KoD destroyed the need for the Construct Theories separation of memory and personality to explain how LTT was both madness and real, all the Construct Theory has left is vaguely suggestive quotes—ones which can be applied just as easily to Lews Therin being real. After all if it was a Lament, why shouldn’t Lews Therin cry to hear it? Especially since it was his memory.

 

Another, for instance: “A man who trusts everyone is a fool and a man who trusts no one is a fool.”

 

Is this Lews Therin mouthing Rand’s subconscious concerns about his own inability to trust set against his fears of the dangers of trusting? Or is Lews Therin simply making an accurate observation about what he perceives of that confliction in Rand?

 

See the problem? Lews Therin is not oblivious to Rand’s situation—him commenting on problems Rand is facing and positions Rand has taken is not abnormal, nor is him having feelings about those problems.

 

tGS and the Construct Theory; The Proof of the Construct

 

Prior to tGS the evidence of the Construct Theory was fairly much in the manner listed above. Sequences of quotes with pointers made as to how they might relate to Rand’s subconscious desires or thoughts. Lacking the strength of the pre-KoD premise it was largely falling apart. In tGS, however, we gain some highly suggestive quotes which many constructionists regard as proof the Theory is correct. The first is as follows…

 

He knew—somehow—that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

 

[tGS; 50, Veins of Gold]

 

The inference Constructionists draw is clear--he and Lews Therin were not two men, therefore Lews Therin was Rand’s creation, a construct. However, to argue that LTT is not another man apart from Rand is not to state that he is not real.

 

Indeed, whether you look at it from a Construct or Real Madness perspective, Rand is quite correct—they were not two men. They were two facet manifestations of the same soul. We know this from RJ.

 

Q:The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

 

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

[New York Barnes and Noble signing on January 7, 2003]

 

Personality created from the experiences each underwent in their own distinct period of life, but still the same soul--and Birgitte makes clear that the facet personalities for all incarnations are still one person. She speaks of I and me, when referring to them.

 

Indeed, under the Real Madness Theory this is the crux of Rand's problem. Rand's ongoing refusal to admit that he and Lews Therin were the same was keeping them from intergrating. It is only now, with Rand coming to perceive a fact that he’d previously been denying, that intergration became possible.

 

So yes, not two men, but two personalities--and that is so under either theory.

 

The second quote is…

 

It will be a mercy, Lews Therin whispered. Death is always a mercy. The madman didn't sound as crazy as he once had. In fact, his voice had started to sound an awful lot like Rand's own voice.

 

[tGS; 49, Just Another Man]

 

The Construct implication is that it sounds like Rand because it is Rand. He constructed it, therefore under the mask its Rand all along.

 

Yet, again, the situation supplies the Real Madness answer—Lews Therin sounds like Rand because they are being brought closer together—integrating, in effect. When Rand becomes suicidal, he and Lews Therin are for the first time truly aligned. At all other times, even when he was working with Lews Therin, he kept his walls up.

 

And so Rand and Lews Therin, no longer keeping each other at arms length, follow their natural gravity and begin falling into one another--intergrating. That alignment allows them both to perceive the truth—that they are one soul.

 

As a result of integration of course they sound like one another. They are one another. Denying this is what put them in trouble in the first place.

 

Conclusions on the Construct Theory

 

Lacking the pre-KoD need to explain how the Lews Therin manifestation could be both a madness and real, the Construct Theory comes down to a sequence of interpreted quotes--quotes which lacking the Construct Theory we have no need to interpret because they make sense at face value.

 

It furthermore requires we dismiss Semirhage’s statements as lies, a suggestion which goes against her stated nature, and is made highly unlikely by the accuracy and details of her supposed lies in correlation with the state Rand happens to be in.

 

Lacking any reason or need or evidence to suggest that we should be doing either the interpreting or the dismissing, I'm not sure we have any reason to even look to the Construct Theory to begin with.

 

Final Thoughts

 

In many ways I think this issue is obscured by remaining arguments from when the whole question was more ambiguous. Looking at it afresh from a post-KoD perspective the simple sequence suggests cause and effect. Consider;

 

Premise

1. Rand is exposed to the Taint.

2. The Taint induces normal forms of madness.

3. In the Wheel hearing a real voice of a past life personality is a normal form of madness.

4. The voice Rand heard contains real knowledge, including knowledge beyond what has seeped through to Rand.

 

Conclusion

5. Rand was hearing a real voice induced by the Taint.

 

It's obviously not set in stone, and I doubt we'll ever get a resolution given Brandon's statement that RJ didn't want it answered, but thems be my thoughts on this issue.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 54
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

AIUI, madness is a state of dissociation from the real world, while at the same time considering one's own outlook to be real, even in the face of compelling evidence that it is not. Similarly, a 'delusion' is a belief which is retained even though it is demonstrably wrong. What distinguishes delusions and insanity from mistakes is the existence of such evidence. For example, those sailors who (traditionally) refused to sail too close to the horizon for fear they might fall off the edge* were not insane or deluded; they were merely mistaken, because their knowledge was incomplete.

 

Now consider the voice in Rand's head. If we are to take Semi at her word because she rarely lies, 'it makes no difference that the voice is real'. I disagree; it would make all the difference in the world, for the reason I have given; and because 'rarely' is not 'never'. Semi knew from Lanfear that Rand had some access to LTT's memories, and knew also that 'hearing voices' was a common manifestation of insanity, so I would think that Semi was stirring it, trying to push Rand closer to the edge of losing control, trying to make him ready for a DO takeover.

 

But I'm not entirely convinced that the voice was real. Recall that LTT was sane when he died, having been Healed by Ishydin. Therefore, the personality that 'awoke' in Rand's mind (if such it was) should likewise have been sane. Of course, that personality might itself have been affected by the taint..

 

I think on balance, taking into account Birgitte's and Mat's experiences of integrating memories not from their own lives, that the 'voice' was mad not sane, and that Semi 'rarely' but not 'never' lied.. I'm going to come down on the side of the voice being an LTT-construct.

 

 

 

*(Of course, the Circumfence would prevent them going too close to the Rimfall.. sorry ;) )

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't agree. I myself am more of a Constructist.

Semirhage's statement can be interpreted as referring to someone hearing voices of real PEOPLE, not real VOICES of people. Rand has those memories, that's a given at this stage. Hence, she could just mean that when someone has memories of past lives to build their second persona on, it's harder to achieve reintegration (indeed, how do you convince a man who possesses knowledge he has no way of knowing that he's actually insane?).

Moreover, what's a man if not his personality? A man isn't his soul, I believe. Birgitte is a special case - she was cast out of tel'aran'rhiod, where her soul remembers all lives and has a personality of its own, so to speak. In my book, Rand and Lews Therin are two men.

 

PS

Interestingly enough, I used to believe just what you're proposing here, until I read TGS. I didn't read the forums before KoD, so that's probably the reason I could maintain that view despite of seeming lack of evidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

P.s. In all my drafts the Real Madness Theory was called The Real Theory, and people that adhere to it called Realists. Just and FYI in terms of bias. ;)

 

Is that an allusion to realism and constructivism in philosophy?

 

I agree that Rand has the mental disorder Semirhage described. It's worth noting that the "construct" theory can't explain Rand's memories at all and resorted to various speculations, whereas Semirhage gives clear and specific explanation of both the voice and the memories. But surely you've noticed that the word "real" tends to antagonize people? People see "real" as an extreme view, and they want to believe a middle-ground view because it makes them feel smarter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now consider the voice in Rand's head. If we are to take Semi at her word because she rarely lies, 'it makes no difference that the voice is real'. I disagree; it would make all the difference in the world, for the reason I have given; and because 'rarely' is not 'never'. Semi knew from Lanfear that Rand had some access to LTT's memories, and knew also that 'hearing voices' was a common manifestation of insanity, so I would think that Semi was stirring it, trying to push Rand closer to the edge of losing control, trying to make him ready for a DO takeover.

 

You really think its sustainable to suggest that Semirhage lucked into Rand constructing a voice in addition to the very rare memory transfer? Had Rand been Morr, or the man with the spiders, or had he been Lews Therin himself, she would have been dead wrong. But, in stead of bringing up memory seepage and making the same claim, she chose to risk everything on the chance that he was one of the madmen who heard voices?

 

As for the rest--no, functionally speaking it makes no difference. The presence of the other personality was having a clear destabalizing effect on Rand's mental state--it is, in the purest sense of the phrase, an Abnormal Psychological state, and something clearly detrimental.

 

Put another way--fears are normal responses to dangerous stimuli, but fears can also come in too strong, whereupon they become phobias. These need to be treated because they can have clear detrimental effects on a person--say, an agrophobic not willing to go outside. The fear response, and the danger, are both real, but the nature of it is abnormal, and thus detrimental. So too with this. That LTT is real did not change the detrimental effect his presense was having upon Rand.

 

But I'm not entirely convinced that the voice was real. Recall that LTT was sane when he died, having been Healed by Ishydin. Therefore, the personality that 'awoke' in Rand's mind (if such it was) should likewise have been sane. Of course, that personality might itself have been affected by the taint..

 

Sorry, this was in my list of things to address and I forgot. Look at what Ishamael actually says.

 

"A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes."

 

What he could do could serve as well as what the sisters could do, which is to say, give Lews Therin a few lucid minutes. The presumption is that like them, a few minutes is all it would give--which is why it serves just fine for his purpose just fine, because he simply wanted Lews Therin to realise the reality before he died.

 

Semirhage's statement can be interpreted as referring to someone hearing voices of real PEOPLE, not real VOICES of people. Rand has those memories, that's a given at this stage. Hence, she could just mean that when someone has memories of past lives to build their second persona on, it's harder to achieve reintegration (indeed, how do you convince a man who possesses knowledge he has no way of knowing that he's actually insane?).

 

Alright then, lets say such a thing might be true--what need have we to suggest it? Where is the evidence that the Lews Therin voice is anything other than what it seems to be? What, even, is there to suggest such a thing might be possible? Yes, evidence can be twisted so it doesn't directly rule out the Construct Theory (and trust me, if it did I would have pointed it out)--but the Theory itself has no base any more. No reason to suggest it. No abberations it explains.

 

Because the fact remains--liar or not, Semirhage unwittingly gave us the logic we need to answer the contradiction the Construct Theory was based on. Without that contradiction, there is no need or evidence for the Construct Theory being either possible, likely, or even suggestable.

 

P.s. In all my drafts the Real Madness Theory was called The Real Theory, and people that adhere to it called Realists. Just and FYI in terms of bias. ;)

 

Is that an allusion to realism and constructivism in philosophy?

 

 

Nah just my attempt at humour.

 

I agree that Rand has the mental disorder Semirhage described. It's worth noting that the "construct" theory can't explain Rand's memories at all and resorted to various speculations, whereas Semirhage gives clear and specific explanation of both the voice and the memories. But surely you've noticed that the word "real" tends to antagonize people? People see "real" as an extreme view, and they want to believe a middle-ground view because it makes them feel smarter.

 

Good point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to be on the unique madness boat and I defended Semirhages word. TGS changed that though, the chapter VoG changed a lot. Rand fixed himself, merging with the construct; his barriers against the foreign memories disolved, and he remembers more lives.

 

When "the many became one" I imagine it to mean the memories of past lives are fully in there now, Rand remembers them but also FEELS them lke it was hi, because in a sense it was him. You know how Ishamael was spun out of the prison once in a while? Well, imagine that is the Dragon, reborn anew instead of returning the same, at some point each time the Dragon would remember being spun out before. That is what I think Rand went through but it could never happen while Rand resisted. I think of Rand as the most timeless character now (not countingthe Creator and Dark One). He became the oldest character in the series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to be on the unique madness boat and I defended Semirhages word. TGS changed that though, the chapter VoG changed a lot. Rand fixed himself, merging with the construct; his barriers against the foreign memories disolved, and he remembers more lives.

 

I don't get it. Does that not sound exactly like a definition of 'intergrating', Semirhage's stated answer to a Real Madness situation. What in that event makes you look to the Construct Theory?

 

When "the many became one" I imagine it to mean the memories of past lives are fully in there now, Rand remembers them but also FEELS them lke it was hi, because in a sense it was him. You know how Ishamael was spun out of the prison once in a while? Well, imagine that is the Dragon, reborn anew instead of returning the same, at some point each time the Dragon would remember being spun out before. That is what I think Rand went through but it could never happen while Rand resisted. I think of Rand as the most timeless character now (not countingthe Creator and Dark One). He became the oldest character in the series.

 

Certainly--or at least now that Birgitte's memories are fading. I wonder if Rand will retain his? At the very least it should do wonders for his perspective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to be on the unique madness boat and I defended Semirhages word. TGS changed that though, the chapter VoG changed a lot. Rand fixed himself, merging with the construct; his barriers against the foreign memories disolved, and he remembers more lives.

 

I don't get it. Does that not sound exactly like a definition of 'intergrating', Semirhage's stated answer to a Real Madness situation. What in that event makes you look to the Construct Theory?

 

Its hard to say it right... Lews Therins voice/entity is the construct Rand made to ward off the memories and mannerisms. But the memories are supposed to help him, he just didnt know. Come TGS he contemplates what it means to be the Dragon, remembers love, figures out why its worth all the suffering. He accepts it, a new leaf is turned in the darkness of Rand, he integrates with Rand Therin and thus all the others. The construct theory aspect is that this thing in Rands head doesnt just consist of Rand and Lewis-as proved by him remembering more lives. If Lews Therin was actually there and not just his exeriences, why does it feel like Rand is better when he knows Lews is gone AND he gains more memories, after throwing away the CK after needing it to feel in control... If Rand abruptly descended into the terminal madness in VoG, the way Semirhage described, well it depends how you look at it. A person affected by foreign memories might look mad, but doesnt make it so. Mat and Birgitte arent. Too much of VoG points at Rand consciously trying to cure his hardess, Im not about to think he sent himself over the edge at thetime it happened, not with the way it happened.

 

When "the many became one" I imagine it to mean the memories of past lives are fully in there now, Rand remembers them but also FEELS them lke it was hi, because in a sense it was him. You know how Ishamael was spun out of the prison once in a while? Well, imagine that is the Dragon, reborn anew instead of returning the same, at some point each time the Dragon would remember being spun out before. That is what I think Rand went through but it could never happen while Rand resisted. I think of Rand as the most timeless character now (not countingthe Creator and Dark One). He became the oldest character in the series.

 

Certainly--or at least now that Birgitte's memories are fading. I wonder if Rand will retain his? At the very least it should do wonders for his perspective.

 

Absolutely! The blundering idiot side of Rand could be gone.

 

I want Rand to dream himself into a Forsaken meeting, seeing through Moridins eyes, and suddenly take control like "Lews" did to him...

 

"I'm coming for you! All of you!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now consider the voice in Rand's head. If we are to take Semi at her word because she rarely lies, 'it makes no difference that the voice is real'. I disagree; it would make all the difference in the world, for the reason I have given; and because 'rarely' is not 'never'. Semi knew from Lanfear that Rand had some access to LTT's memories, and knew also that 'hearing voices' was a common manifestation of insanity, so I would think that Semi was stirring it, trying to push Rand closer to the edge of losing control, trying to make him ready for a DO takeover.

 

You really think its sustainable to suggest that Semirhage lucked into Rand constructing a voice in addition to the very rare memory transfer? Had Rand been Morr, or the man with the spiders, or had he been Lews Therin himself, she would have been dead wrong. But, in stead of bringing up memory seepage and making the same claim, she chose to risk everything on the chance that he was one of the madmen who heard voices?

 

Yes I do, because it wasn't luck, it was logic. Rand was not showing any visible signs of madness; he wasn't ignoring his surroundings as LTT was, he wasn't childlike as Morr was, and he wasn't acting as though he was having frightening hallucinations as spider-man was. Since it is very common indeed for mental instability to manifest as 'hearing voices' she was on pretty safe ground.

 

"A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes."

 

What he could do could serve as well as what the sisters could do, which is to say, give Lews Therin a few lucid minutes. The presumption is that like them, a few minutes is all it would give--which is why it serves just fine for his purpose just fine, because he simply wanted Lews Therin to realise the reality before he died.

 

Exactly my point - LTT was sane when he died, when the LTT-personality died. If that personality awoke, it would awake sane. Whereas the LTT-manifestation in Rand's awareness was clearly bonkers.

 

 

**Please read this next bit in the knowledge that I am NOT having a sly dig at either you or any of the forum members - I'm making a statement describing my perceptions.**

 

Finally: functionally speaking it makes all the difference in the world whether an error is a delusion or a mistake. People with delusions are so thoroughly convinced that they are correct that they simply do not 'see' the contrary evidence. People who make mistakes (=everybody!!) hang on to them to varying extents depending on how much they have invested in their viewpoint, and will often defend that viewpoint quite ferociously; but when confronted with an undeniable reality they are capable of accepting it (if unwillingly!), where a delusional person is not capable of such an acceptance.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We know that past memories are accessible in some way in the present, this is evidenced by Mat. (The fact that Mat *thinks* these are people who walked through the same Door as he did doesn't mean it's true)

 

By some unknown mechanism, the Taint on Saidin gave Rand access to past memories. Rand's madness gave those memories a personality which he could interact with. LTT is both a construct, and is real. The memories are real, the personality is constructed. Rand didn't help his fragile state by insisting to himself that there was really a separate person in his head.

 

I've been toying with a pet theory about how the Taint could do something like this (that is, selectively do it to Rand but nobody else), but I don't want to hijack the thread.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its hard to say it right... Lews Therins voice/entity is the construct Rand made to ward off the memories and mannerisms. But the memories are supposed to help him, he just didnt know.

 

But what reason do you have to suggest this?

 

Come TGS he contemplates what it means to be the Dragon, remembers love, figures out why its worth all the suffering. He accepts it, a new leaf is turned in the darkness of Rand, he integrates with Rand Therin and thus all the others.

 

Alternatively, in tGS he becomes suicidal, and through aligning with Lews Therin in that way both come to percieve what they have to live for and thus intergrate. I mean you speak of Rand contemplating--but Lews Therin did just as much contemplation. Rand did not come to his conclusion and dismiss Lews Therin, they instead came to the conclusion together--each for their own reasons. This matches what Semirhage stated precisely. What reason have you to suggest 'Rand Therin' (although, I must say that is a cool term for the Construct) might exist?

 

The construct theory aspect is that this thing in Rands head doesnt just consist of Rand and Lewis-as proved by him remembering more lives. If Lews Therin was actually there and not just his exeriences, why does it feel like Rand is better when he knows Lews is gone AND he gains more memories, after throwing away the CK after needing it to feel in control...

 

Because in holding each other apart they both pushed themselves away from the greater cohesion of the soul. That was the problem, the danger, of their division. In intergrating the soul was no longer divided against itself and became something more natural, more akin to Birgitte--an amalgamated, total form of themselves.

 

That is the reason when two facet personalities exist they need to be intergrated. The soul can't split, so instead they need to be brought together.

 

If Rand abruptly descended into the terminal madness in VoG, the way Semirhage described, well it depends how you look at it. A person affected by foreign memories might look mad, but doesnt make it so. Mat and Birgitte arent. Too much of VoG points at Rand consciously trying to cure his hardess, Im not about to think he sent himself over the edge at thetime it happened, not with the way it happened.

 

 

I don't think Rand descended into terminal madness, I think he was on the brink, and stepped back. Obscurely it was his suicidal tendencies aligning with Lews Therin's that allowed this--because he came to that step, he and Lews Therin were viewing things through the same lens. They luckily paused and considered--and both of them did, it was not just Rand that came to the realisation that they were wrong. Lews Therin did also. That was what intergrated them.

 

Quote

Quote

When "the many became one" I imagine it to mean the memories of past lives are fully in there now, Rand remembers them but also FEELS them lke it was hi, because in a sense it was him. You know how Ishamael was spun out of the prison once in a while? Well, imagine that is the Dragon, reborn anew instead of returning the same, at some point each time the Dragon would remember being spun out before. That is what I think Rand went through but it could never happen while Rand resisted. I think of Rand as the most timeless character now (not countingthe Creator and Dark One). He became the oldest character in the series.

 

Certainly--or at least now that Birgitte's memories are fading. I wonder if Rand will retain his? At the very least it should do wonders for his perspective.

 

 

 

Absolutely! The blundering idiot side of Rand could be gone.

 

I want Rand to dream himself into a Forsaken meeting, seeing through Moridins eyes, and suddenly take control like "Lews" did to him...

 

"I'm coming for you! All of you!"

 

That is a brilliant thought. Or, inversely, Moridin manifesting in Rand and getting spanked by Cadsuane.

 

 

Yes I do, because it wasn't luck, it was logic. Rand was not showing any visible signs of madness; he wasn't ignoring his surroundings as LTT was, he wasn't childlike as Morr was, and he wasn't acting as though he was having frightening hallucinations as spider-man was. Since it is very common indeed for mental instability to manifest as 'hearing voices' she was on pretty safe ground.

 

So your presuming that Semirhage did a detailed study of Taint related manifestations on the sheer chance that she'd have to scare Rand's followers with him being mad--a thing they had to fear in any case--and that in the culmination of that study she would risk everything by making a guess that he was in fact hearing voices on the fact that some of the other men who could channel have heard voices when she could have simply made the same threats purely on the basis of the memories.

 

"He's insane," she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min's knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. "Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know that people live many lives in the turning of the wheel? Sometimes, very rarely, the barriers between those lives grow weak, and memory slips through. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is remembering Lews Therin's life. It makes no difference that these memories are real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who was drowning in the memories of a past life. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be . . . abrupt."

 

I'm sorry, no. That sort of slopshod methodology doesn't match Semirhage at all.

 

Quote from: Luckers

Quote

"A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes."

 

What he could do could serve as well as what the sisters could do, which is to say, give Lews Therin a few lucid minutes. The presumption is that like them, a few minutes is all it would give--which is why it serves just fine for his purpose just fine, because he simply wanted Lews Therin to realise the reality before he died.

 

 

 

Exactly my point - LTT was sane when he died, when the LTT-personality died. If that personality awoke, it would awake sane. Whereas the LTT-manifestation in Rand's awareness was clearly bonkers.

 

For maybe a minute. A few lucid minutes. That he died in those minutes does not mean it suspends the limitation.

 

Indeed this healing might explain why Lews Therin has moments of lucidity throughout the series despite RJ's statement that Taint damage doesn't get better.

 

Finally: functionally speaking it makes all the difference in the world whether an error is a delusion or a mistake. People with delusions are so thoroughly convinced that they are correct that they simply do not 'see' the contrary evidence. People who make mistakes (=everybody!!) hang on to them to varying extents depending on how much they have invested in their viewpoint, and will often defend that viewpoint quite ferociously; but when confronted with an undeniable reality they are capable of accepting it (if unwillingly!), where a delusional person is not capable of such an acceptance.

 

Rand's condition it neither mistake nor delusion. But it is detrimental to his psychological stability and thus Rand, subject to its effects, is mad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm... to be honest, I think the question is a bit of a catch-22.  On the one hand, Rand heard Llews Therin's voice in his head, seemingly real, talking about real events that happened, and giving Rand real information.  We don't have any reason to not believe that Llews Therin's voice is real.  On the other hand, though, as they make clear in VoG, Rand IS Llews Therin, and always has been.  Even if Llews Therin's personality was different, the fact that they are the SAME PERSON means that Rand is merely talking to another facet of himself.

 

In a sense, I'm inclined to say the answer lies between the two, and I think Graendel's claim actually supports this fact.  Rand is actually hearing Llews Therin's voice, which is a problem (mentally) because he IS Llews Therin - if he is hearing Llews Therin's voice, it means that his past lives are not being properly integrated in his mind, and he is falling into a type of split personality disorder with his past lives.  She mentions that even Graendel has trouble reintegrating lives, which suggests (to me, anyway) that it is a problem with the individual person entering a state of madness wherein they split off the different aspects of their soul into separate personalities.  Which means although he is hearing Llews Therin's voice and personality come through, it's ultimately because he's constructed it to where the two personalities are separate.

 

Not sure if that made sense or not, but that's how I view it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an interesting theory, but I think it could be improved by further clarifying the conceptual difference between a "real" voice and a "constructed" voice.  At the moment, I'm having a hard time understanding how your theory is different from the Construct Theory.  

 

My confusion ultimately stems from the fact that there are (at least) two possible meanings of the word "real" in this context.  Under one of those meanings, a "constructed" personality can be considered "real".  I'll illustrate this using two scenarios.

 

Scenario 1:  There's this guy called Rand.  He is just a normal dude.  Then one day he suffers a severe trauma that he is unable to cope with.  His mind reacts to this by creating a second personality, called Jimmy Bob.  Jimmy Bob takes over whenver the Rand personality is unable to deal with a situation.  Rand doesn't remember what happens when JB is in control, and vice versa.  This is, in other words, a classic case of multiple personality disorder.

 

Scenario 2:  There's this guy called Rand.  He is just a normal dude.  But he has a friend called Bubba who had a horrible accident, and is now (literally) just a brain in a jar.  He can't move or do anything at all, he is stuck in the mother of all "locked in" scenarios.  Rand is a super-duper scientist and invents a technology that would allow him to transfer Bubba's mind, in its entirety, into a little device.  That device can then be linked into Rand's central nervous system.  This lets Bubba sense and experience everything that Rand does.  In some limited cases, Bubba can even take over control of Rand's body.

 

Ok.  Both Jimmy Bob and Bubba are "real" personalities.  They each have their own separate existence, their own attributes, their own skills and proclivities, their own idiosynchracies, and their own memories.  Both have the ability to take control of the host body.

 

There are two key differences between JB and Bubba: a) Both JB and Rand emanate from the same brain and the same set of experiences.  If Rand were to go to a psychiatrist, treatment would consist in trying to get the two personalities to merge.  Bubba is, in essence, a separate life.  b) JB and Rand exist on the same substrate (i.e. Rand's brain) and so integration is physically possible.  Bubba and Rand, on the other hand, exist on different substrates (computer chip on the one hand, brain on the other), and integration is not possible.

 

Which one of these scenarios best corresponds to what you mean by "real"?

 

Also, consider the following: LTT has aspects of both JB and Bubba.  The LTT memories are real and are from a different life (Bubba).  But the personality exists on the same substrate as the Rand personality, i.e. the brain (JB).

 

I think that, if you were to call JB a "construct" and Bubba "real", then LTT would almost certainly have to be a construct.  Rand suffered two potential "traumas" that could have caused the LTT personality to come into being: a) the introduction of the LTT memory stream (whether as a result of channeling or the tain), and/or b) the destabilization of his mental states caused by the taint/stress of being the savior of humankind.  There are many indications throughout the books that the LTT personality is intended to cope with both of these traumas.  The LTT personality is completely bonkers most of the time, even though the real LTT was sane when he died, and he possesses the majority of the LTT memory stream.  It has become a sort of receptacle into which Rand can channel (no pun intended) information and emotions that his core personality is not equipped to process and deal with.  

 

In addition to being consistent with the general shape of multiple personality disorder, the Construct Theory allows for reintegration to occur.  If LTT were a "real" individual, integration should be impossible.

 

As an aside, I think that you're getting the importance of Semirhage's comments completely backwards.  We know that her objective would be to cause Rand harm.  Few things can cause as much harm as a large helping of truth poisoned by a drop of lies, and Semirhage knows enough about such conditions that she can construct an explanation that is perfectly calculated to make treatment all but impossible.  In order for integration to occur, Rand would have to accept that the elements that make up the LTT personality are part of "him".  However, the LTT memory stream is real, and that gives a real consistency to the LTT personality.  I think that Semirhage, by telling Rand that LTT was "real", intended to make it harder for Rand to achieve integration.  If he became convinced that LTT was like Bubba, living in a cosmic computer chip and completely distinct from himself (i.e. Rand), then he would never come to think of the LTT experiences as part of "himself" and never believe that integration was possible.  

 

Anyway, to return to my original point of concern: under your theory, the "real" Rand and the "real" LTT "integrated" at the end of the tGS.  But how can two "real" personalities integrate into one another?  If they are distinct individuals (i.e. one is not a creature of the other's psyche), then blending should be impossible.  This is what makes me think that it would be helpful if you thought some more about how you conceive of the difference between a "constructed" personality and a "real" personality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The point I was making was merely that Rand is the Dragon Reborn - there are many different lives contained within that same soul.  Each of these lives the soul had it's own personality, memories, etc... but there was never more than one soul.  In a normal situation, these past lives are forgotten, maybe surfacing time and again as random thoughts or ideas, but largely going unnoticed.  In cases of the "Old Blood being strong" in someone, we see them having memories of doing things in another life - their memories, personalities, etc. were different, but they realize that it was still them.  The soul is the same.

 

In Rand's case, however, he hears Llews Therin's voice talking to him, Llews Therin trying to take control of his personality, etc.  Since Rand is the Dragon (Llews Therin) Reborn, he is Llews Therin - their soul is the same (and RJ mentioned that the soul cannot be split).  In a normal situation, Rand would randomly remember things about Llews Therin's life, but would ultimately still see them as "his" (Rand's) memories of a past life.  Llews Therin's life would have been integrated with Rand, since his life is just a part of the soul that is Rand.  Rand's situation is not normal, however, and instead of Llews Therin's memories simply being integrated with his own, we see that the personality, memories, voice, etc. of Llews Therin speak to Rand, but are seemingly separate.  Now, since RJ has said that souls cannot be split, and Rand is Llews Therin reborn, there is only one soul - so Llews Therin only exists within Rand - but the Llews Therin aspect of Rand's soul has been disassociated with Rand's aspect of the soul, causing, as it where, a false divide within Rand.

 

Really, it's not that different from the construct theory, in that Rand hears Llews Therin's voice because he failed to integrate that part of his soul with the "Rand" part - thus Rand is "creating" Llews Therin's voice.  Where it differs a little, though, is at the very point you brought up - what is "real?"  Since Llews Therin seems to be sharing actual memories from his life, have actual knowledge of his life, (verified by others outside of Rand), we see that it's not just stuff that is being made up.  Llews Therin's memories, etc. are actual, real memories and thoughts.  So in that regard, Llews Therin is an actual part of Rand's soul that is talking to him... but a part that Rand should have been integrated with.

 

So yeah, I don't know if that makes it any clearer.  It's not really something I've thought long and hard about, just sort of how I saw that issue as I looked at the post.  It's not even that different from the Construct theory, as I said, but rather more was raised by looking at the two theories posted (and maybe I misunderstood the idea of the "Real Madness Theory," but it seemed to me there was not really a divide between the two.  It was really Llews Therin talking to him, and Llews Therin was talking to him because Rand failed to integrate Llews Therin into Rand's own "self."  Ultimately, it might not even make logical sense... could just be a bit of hand-waving to tell a good story... but I realize that that kind of nihilist attitude just isn't fun to discuss against.  ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly:

 

Yes I do, because it wasn't luck, it was logic. Rand was not showing any visible signs of madness; he wasn't ignoring his surroundings as LTT was, he wasn't childlike as Morr was, and he wasn't acting as though he was having frightening hallucinations as spider-man was. Since it is very common indeed for mental instability to manifest as 'hearing voices' she was on pretty safe ground.

 

So your presuming that Semirhage did a detailed study of Taint related manifestations on the sheer chance that she'd have to scare Rand's followers with him being mad--a thing they had to fear in any case--and that in the culmination of that study she would risk everything by making a guess that he was in fact hearing voices on the fact that some of the other men who could channel have heard voices when she could have simply made the same threats purely on the basis of the memories.

 

..the Taint is not a type of insanity in itself. What the Taint does is destabilizes people?s mental states. It induces them to go mad?or perhaps pushes them away from being sane is a better way to look at it?but the type of insanity they then suffer is in their court. 

 

I'm presuming that Semi did a detailed study of general aspects of madness (not just taint-related) in order to use it on those she tortured, to scare them into thinking they were going mad, to break down their resistance. She's an expert on mental and physical torture. She has explored the subject in depth and detail. (Yukh.) She used that knowledge on Rand and his followers. She would have been watching Rand's reaction to the suggestion. If it had been wrong, she would have tried something else. She can be very patient (until she gets spanked, that is).

 

 

Secondly:

 

LTT was sane when he died if only "For maybe a minute. A few lucid minutes. That he died in those minutes does not mean it suspends the limitation."

 

I think we may be at cross-purposes here. I agree with you that there is a limitation. That is not my point.

 

I am focussing on LTT's state of mind when he died, however it was achieved, however brief it was.

 

I am focussing on the fact that LTT was sane when he died, however that came about, AND THEREFORE would have awoken sane.

 

A personality which dies sane awakes sane; one which dies mad awakes mad. What we have here is a personality whch died sane, and a manifestation which was mad. Therefore, to me, the manifestation was a construct.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LTT was sane when he died if only "For maybe a minute. A few lucid minutes. That he died in those minutes does not mean it suspends the limitation."

 

I'm not entirely sure of this, his hundred companions were instantly struck mad at the counterstroke. LTT actually overdrew on the power, something we've never seen done by a male channeler. He still could have died insane.

 

 

A personality which dies sane awakes sane; one which dies mad awakes mad. What we have here is a personality whch died sane, and a manifestation which was mad. Therefore, to me, the manifestation was a construct.

 

I agree that his personality is a construct, but for different reasons. RJ has already said that there is only one soul per person, how could two separate consciousnesses(sp?) both associated with one soul be present at the same place at the same time?

 

Somehow Rand has access to these memories, but it was his madness that gave them a personality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I don't understand why this is so difficult for others to grasp.  To me, it is this:

 

Rand used the REAL memories of his past life as Lews Therin to construct a personality and voice inside of his head that he could then use as a sort of escape from his troubles.  The more he tried to wall himself in and escape, the stronger that constructed version of Lews Therin would become inside Rand's head.  In other words, the construct would seem more "real" to Rand when he was feeling especially stressed and/or crazy.

 

Once Rand was able to recognize that he shouldn't try to escape or wall himself in, he was able to reintegrate his personality with the constructed (fake, but real to Rand, and likely very much like the actual Lews Therin) personality of Lews Therin, as well as his other past lives that he somehow had access to, into one, clean and sane Rand al'Thor.  Lews Therin is "gone" because he is no longer needed as a way for Rand to cope with the effects of the taint and his stress.

 

The only question I have is how exactly did Rand get those past memories so that he could use them to construct a realistic version of his past personality (Lews Therin)?  Was this ability to remember things from his past life/lives (music, art, history, weaves, people, like Forsaken, etc.) just a normal thing that can happen to people?  Especially those who are ta'veren or who have had very important and/or prominent past lives?  Or is there some sort of barrier between current lives and your past lives that the taint actually breaks down, causing you to remember things regular run-of-the-mill people don't remember because their "barrier" is intact?

 

These, IMO, are the questions we should be asking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

The only question I have is how exactly did Rand get those past memories so that he could use them to construct a realistic version of his past personality (Lews Therin)?  Was this ability to remember things from his past life/lives (music, art, history, weaves, people, like Forsaken, etc.) just a normal thing that can happen to people?  Especially those who are ta'veren or who have had very important and/or prominent past lives?  Or is there some sort of barrier between current lives and your past lives that the taint actually breaks down, causing you to remember things regular run-of-the-mill people don't remember because their "barrier" is intact?

 

These, IMO, are the questions we should be asking.

 

It is highly unlikely the memory seepage was caused by the Taint.  Semirhage stated that occurrences of real voices are very rare and that even Graendal, who specializes in madness, had difficulty getting these people to reintegrate.  This suggests Graendal has been successful multiple times, further suggesting she has encountered even more cases of real voices.  The problem is the Taint was introduced after Graendal was imprisoned by the Seals.  That means either Semirhage’s statement is based on events prior to the Taint, or Graendal upon getting free of the Bore and for some unknown reason decided to open a clinic be rehabilitate mad male channelers, managed to gather a lot of them, have time to treat them all, was successful multiple times, and then decided to share this knowledge with her professional colleague.

 

Of course, this all assumes Semirhage wasn’t lying in the first place…  :)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a Constructionist, after reading VoG.  And here are the ways I support that theory.

 

The Control Models

Both sides are pointing to Mat and Birgette, Mat, even though he has the memories of hundreds if not thousands on lives doesn't seem to have a personality shift like Rand.

 

I say false.  

 

Mat-In tSR Mat looked at Cold Rocks Hold and started talking about the defensive capabilities of the hold while Rand looked at and thought of it as a pile of rocks.  After the battle in the hold and earlier at Imir Stand he looked at the aftermath and started to disect what his enemies where trying to do.  He wasn't doing that after the fight in the Stone of Tear.

 

Then in FoH Rand commented how Mat, when lost in his thoughts, rode like he was born on the back of a horse.  Then at the pass through the Dragonwall Mat was studying the defenses of town sacked by the Shadio then later started yelling at a refuge about the lack of good defenses in a town located that close to their enemies.  

 

The thing is Mat has multiple memories to deal with while Rand had one.

 

Bridgette-All the stories of Bridgette and women like her post breaking (also Bridgette) tell of a women with unflagging courage, laser like focus, and a dead eye with a bow and arrow.  Her "one of the guys" personality was also in all the stories.  It is just in some of her lives her exploits were more famous then others.  in all her lives she was the same woman, different body.

 

Semi's remarks

There is an argument on whether or not Semi lied because if she didn't the constructionist theory is debunked, but if she did it would be out of character for her.

 

I don't think she did lie.  I think she was just wrong.  In the AoL she was a physician not a psychologist.  She may know the basic of human psychology but not the finer nuances that Grendal did (does, but that is a whole other argument).  She even said Grendal could explain it better, because she doesn't quite understand the details herself!

 

AoL v Current outlook of the OP

This goes back to Mat in a way.

 

In tSR and FoH is when people start to credit LTT's coming into Rand's mind.  I think it is more compilcated.

 

I tDR and tSR Rand looked at the OP the way AS of today do.  Ingredients to a recipe or pieces to a model.  They know there is 5 elements to the OP, they know if they use air and fire one way they get a glowing ball, they use it another way they get a lighting bolt.  But the AS never question <em>why</em> they get what they get.  

 

The forsaken look at the OP differently, they look at as a science. Given where they learned to channel it is can be assumed that was the way all AS viewed the OP in AoL (they started out as AS).  To points in particular:

 

1. In tSR at the end of the fight in the Stone Lanfear looked at Rand's fire sword and said, "You build a hut out of sticks and mud when you can have marble palaces at the snap of your fingers."  

 

Rand just knew if he reached out to the power and willed it, a sword would appear, it was his "wilder trick."

 

2. In FoH when Lanfear was chiding Rahvin about playing with an AS like he was he said, "..half of what they know is self taught tricks and the other half barely scratches the surface."  Voicing his contempt for the disrespect AS show to the one power.

 

As a side not I believe AS training in AoL took decades even for the super talented like LTT, Lanfear, and Demi.

 

Asmodean's Influence

In tSR and early FoH Rand didn't hear LTT's but LTT's memories were leaking through.  That scene right before the fight in the Stone when Rand blew up at Lanfear and said, "And you were in love with power."  Could be Rand remembering a conversation LTT had with Merien after they're break up and he spouted the first thing that came to mind.

 

Later in FoH at the Battle of Carihien what he was hearing from LTT was just memories.  LTT's comment about why Sammy turned was probably a memory of something LTT pondered many times.  At the end of the battle when Rand was tired and wounded he wasn't thinking clearly when he told Asmodean about the day a hero of the Light became the Detroyer of Hope.

 

And earlier when Rand called Moraine "little sister" that was probably a very nasty insult in the AoL, an AS calling another AS "little brother or sister."  Again memories of a past life but not a sentient voice.

 

Well the Asmodean Influence comes from Rand's training in the OP.  He thought it would be Asmo saying "take fire, water, and spirit like so and do this, take earth and air like so do that" but Asmo was training Rand the way he was trained as an AS.  And his "not a very good teacher" line was concerning explain advance science to some one with no back ground in science at all.

 

Well Rand did start to learn about the OP and to do that he had to start thinking of it as as AoL AS.  Which was how LTT thought.  Way of thinking combined with his memories from a past life mad the OP seem familiar to him.  

 

Think of it like this, in high school you played the guitar.  After high school real life got in your way and you couldn't play any more but after 15-20 you pick up a guitar and start plucking the strings, the more you play the more that comes back to you and soon you sound like you've been playing for a few years instead of a few months.

 

Well Rand then started flying through the OP not quite sure why he is doing what he's doing.  But by thinking like LTT he started reacting with the instincts of some one who had been wielding the power for 300-400 years, his instincts were remember if his mind wasn't.  

 

This, combined with the stresses on his life as the Dragon Reborn comes to peak in....

 

The Tyler Durden Factor

Everyone's seen Fight Club right?  If not, go see it.

 

Well LTT was a second personality he developed to deal with all the stuff going on in his life.  It was the part of him that held his fears and hopes he couldn't afford to acknowledge (so he thought) and mixed with his past memories and his new way of thinking LTT's voice was born and seem like a separate sentient entity.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, leaving aside the various arguments that might be offered to apply her words to the Construct Theory, there’s this simple fact—those are some damn good guesses if she was making it up. Consider, if Lews Therin’s voice is not real, her guessing that Rand constructed a voice to speak for the memory transfer (which should have been her assumption if voice manifestation were not real) is pretty out of this world.

 

Or else she had knowledge someone was deliberately contributing to his insanity without him realizing it.  You have this madman Ishamael who before he turned to the Shadow supposedly wrote seriously on topics such as disassembling reason and other insane ideas.  Ishamael was also the last person LTT saw alive and he encountered him in such a state that he could pretty much do with him whatever he wanted.  Was this encounter as simple as relieving LTT of taint induced madness to supposedly show him the aftermath of slaughtering his own family, or was he able to influence his perception of the events, things that might not have been true? 

 

There's too little information to suggest that something like this is in any way very likely.  But consider, Ishamael was once again right inside Rand's head when the dragon was spun out again.  And again we see him using his family (Kari) in another violent scenario.  Between the two of them it's also just Ishamael who we could say has unbroken memories of the past for sure.  We also have precedence in the story line the ability to both read and insert memories in the case of the Finn, the angreals the Aiel and Aes Sedai use for testing initiates.  It would be the close to the ultimate weapon as far as the shadow's concerned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

question: how do you know this voice in Rand's head is actually the real LTT's. Because Rand is going mad he may make up a personality himself and stick the name onto it and just believe it's LTT.

 

Because in several ocasions Rand said things, even intimate things, that only LTT would know. When he confronted Lanfear and Rahvin, when he battled Sammael, when he faced Semirhage, others. No way a sheepherder from Two Rivers would've know this details from wars in previous Age.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

question: how do you know this voice in Rand's head is actually the real LTT's. Because Rand is going mad he may make up a personality himself and stick the name onto it and just believe it's LTT.

 

Because in several ocasions Rand said things, even intimate things, that only LTT would know. When he confronted Lanfear and Rahvin, when he battled Sammael, when he faced Semirhage, others. No way a sheepherder from Two Rivers would've know this details from wars in previous Age.

agreed and don't forget when Sammael send his messenger to Rand for a treaty. Rand calls out a list of crimes against the Forsaken no scholar would know. when they were battling the Shaido and sammael nuked the tower rand was on. he later falls off his horse and Rand says something about Sammael i think while Nateal (Asmo)is there and he reacts to it.

 

i always stood by that LTT was real and a past life.

 

so i look at this way. Rand became afficted with madness through the taint. instead of getting the " i see spiders " or becoming a child ones, he gets the past life memories one. and that is because the taint would create a madness, nothing could prevent that ( except joining the DO ).

 

and it is similar to what Thom calls possession. he tells Mat about the Old Blood and how a past life can take control of your body. what they called a form of insanity in the AoL, i am guessing. differant age, differant term as we have see numerous times. as we seen LTT took control of Rand's channeling during the attack on the mansion.

 

so being the Dragon Reborn mega taveren he is, the pattern gave him the past life memories one. the most useful and the one that could be cured, ie integration. Min sees the pattern in her visions. VoG is the one of Rand and another man entering the light and one emerging. it was meant to be, and LTT was real.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...