Has Perrin already thrown a major wrench into the Seanchan sul’dam damane machin

[Luckers]

Egwene is told by Renna in TGH within an hour of being collared that damane sometimes have their hands and tongues removed, because damane have no need for such things.  This is similar to what Perrin did to his Aiel captive in CoT, and threatened to continue to do (they broke almost immediately).  I don't think Wise Ones would stand up to that kind of treatment for long.  The Seanchan have had 1000 years or so to perfect their 'training'.

 

The key to that is 'told by Renna'. Re-read Egeanin's conversation with Mat during his first scene in CoT. It is almost never done--hasn't been in centuries.

 

The fact is, though, that it takes shame to truly break an Aiel. They are highly resistant to normal pain. Now ask--why would you think to shame a pet? Pet's don't have honour so why would you shame them?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Egwene is told by Renna in TGH within an hour of being collared that damane sometimes have their hands and tongues removed, because damane have no need for such things.  This is similar to what Perrin did to his Aiel captive in CoT, and threatened to continue to do (they broke almost immediately).  I don't think Wise Ones would stand up to that kind of treatment for long.  The Seanchan have had 1000 years or so to perfect their 'training'.

 

The key to that is 'told by Renna'. Re-read Egeanin's conversation with Mat during his first scene in CoT. It is almost never done--hasn't been in centuries.

 

The fact is, though, that it takes shame to truly break an Aiel. They are highly resistant to normal pain. Now ask--why would you think to shame a pet? Pet's don't have honour so why would you shame them?

 

by treating them like pets? thats pretty shameful

[wvlr2]

by treating them like pets? thats pretty shameful

 

The Seanchan do not treat damane like pets to shame them.  They do it beacuse they view the channelers as only animals.    This is not a big change from the normal "outsiders" view of Aiel as "Savages".

 

The tool that the Seanchan use is not shame, it is induced pain.

 

To the Aiel, the shame would come from acting as a happy willing pet in responce to the treatment.

 

The Aiel were raised in a very harsh environment and take pride in how much pain they can withstand.    They all understand that it is not how you act actually during the torture, don't resist the pain accept it, but even more important, is how you recover after.

 

I am sure that eventually, the Seanchan would learn how to break the Aiel WOs.    If they are given time.    But it would take significant time because the Seanchan and Aiel are so different.

 

I am hoping that the Seanchan do not get the time to learn.  I want the  WOs to figure out how to defeat the Seanchan before the Seanchan can figure out how to tame the WOs.  I am not sure how close a race it will be or who will win, but I am hoping for the WOs.

 

[farthammer]

I think given how much WO know about tel`aran`rhiod they might be able to hold on acting as accidental spies and passing on information to non collared WO.

[ClubCaved]

I think given how much WO know about tel`aran`rhiod they might be able to hold on acting as accidental spies and passing on information to non collared WO.

 

Or what happens if some of the captured SWO are experienced Dreamwalkers? They wouldn't be collared in TAR. Even though they're despised Shaido Wise Ones, would you want to bet against Amys, Bair, etc. not doing anything to help the captives? {Insert evil laugh at Seanchan' expense.] ;D

[Cirin]

Hmm... I honestly don't know if there's enough time for this to really play out in the story.  Introducing a whole new concept of Shaido Wise Ones resisting the a'dam and breaking the Seanchan war machine would just take too long, I think.  If they couldn't break them after a certain amount of time, they'd probably just kill them, like a rabid dog that couldn't be trained.  We'll see, though.  Personally, I think it was more just a way to get the Shaido Wise Ones out of the story in a way that suggests the lengths that Perrin would go to for his wife... and possibly to bring them back into Rand's camp if he assists in there release.

[Kaznen]

Something that hasn't been done to the freed damane, that I thought seemed obvious, is they haven't been sent to the WO to be deprogrammed.  Now, when Rand's army first caputered damane in PoD I thought if Rand sent them to the WOs they'll be fixed right up.

 

Now you have WO in the kennels refusing to be broken.  One tactic the sul'dam use is put a new damane into shared quarters with an experienced damane.  When they try that with WO the WO will will infect the experienced damane and the resistance will spread.

 

I think it will be a contributing factor in the Rand v Seanchan arc. 

[Random Man]

Something that hasn't been done to the freed damane, that I thought seemed obvious, is they haven't been sent to the WO to be deprogrammed.  Now, when Rand's army first caputered damane in PoD I thought if Rand sent them to the WOs they'll be fixed right up.

That is quite interesting. It probably hadn't happened because Rand sent them to Elayne instead and the Wonder Girls had such success with Alivia they probably think they can do it all themselves. Why didn't Avi think of passing them on to the Wise Ones? Interesting.

 

Now you have WO in the kennels refusing to be broken.  One tactic the sul'dam use is put a new damane into shared quarters with an experienced damane.  When they try that with WO the WO will will infect the experienced damane and the resistance will spread.

 

I think it will be a contributing factor in the Rand v Seanchan arc. 

New Elaida POV in ToM? Perhaps some of the Wise Ones feign obedience (I'd think that from their perspective being damane isn't that much different than pretending to be gai'shan, there's no shame in being forced to do something or being treated as less than human if you are captive and don't have a choice) I could totally see Elaida being berated in private by a Shaido Wise One for being spineless, which gets her back up.

 

[Val Mickey]

:D The Shaido will get the Deathwatch Guards to rebel ;D

[Cirin]

Aren't the Shaido Wise Ones the ones that Sevanna ended up bossing around like they were her slaves?  SEVANNA?  Yeah, I'm not resting too much hope on them as the saviors of womanity from the Seanchan slave-collars.

 

...I made the word womanity up...

[Kaznen]

It was a whole complicated thing concerning WO customs and ji'e'toh.  While the regular Shaido went to pot the WOs stayed their focus.

[Random Man]

It was a whole complicated thing concerning WO customs and ji'e'toh.  While the regular Shaido went to pot the WOs stayed their focus.

Yes, and remember Therava (sp?) was certainly doing some WO scheming of her own while Sevaana was on her power trip. The WO don't lead so much as guide. Additionally, The Shaido Perrin's band caught and tortured show that at least those Shaido retained their resistance to torture.

 

Aside from getting the Shaido WO to eat a blacksmith as Semirhage contemplated trying out, I don't see much that the sul'dam can do to shame the captured Shaido WO into breaking. Why should they feel dishonored by being treated as animals? They're captives. The only real shame was in letting themselves get captured without being hurt in the first place, but that doesn't even come close to compare with the "touching an armed enemy" bit, since the Wise Ones weren't even "armed" and they didn't wear the cadin'sor. In their eyes, it'd be the Seanchan who had no honor in taking them captive to begin with.

[Lambada]

Another thought has literally just hit me concerning this.

 

The a'dam relies on nausea and pain to stop a female from embracing the source (Unlike the domination band).

 

We know that Aiel can bear an extreme (any) amount of pain.

 

Will this nausea be enough to stop them embracing the source and channeling without a suldam's permission?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Another thought has literally just hit me concerning this.

 

The a'dam relies on nausea and pain to stop a female from embracing the source (Unlike the domination band).

 

We know that Aiel can bear an extreme (any) amount of pain.

 

Will this nausea be enough to stop them embracing the source and channeling without a suldam's permission?

 

Interesting, it may be that the WO can withstand this.

 

However, from what I gather from the a'dam, its not the fear of pain that stops the person channeling, but the nausea actually prevents this channeling. I cant seem to explain this very well. I think its like, someone squirting lemon in your eye (if it has ever happened you will know) that, although you may be able to resist the pain and what not, the fact is, it still momentarily blinds you. In another example, to clarify, its like somebody pinning your arm behind your back, again, even though you may be able to resist the pain, the fact remains you are still unable to move your arm.

 

Thats what I gathered the a'dam does. See when Egwene is captured in tGH, she tries to do the forbidden things, but the nausea physically prevents her from moving, even though her will is strong, it makes it impossible.

 

Anyway, i could be wrong, but I doubt that anyone could defy the a'dam in that way. Besides, i think this is irrelivant, the whole "sul'dam can channel aswell" plot has been brewing since tGH, and it is most likely going to be the thing that brings down the damane empire. The shaido Wise Ones, i doubt, will play a part in this, its too late to start another plotline

[Random Man]

Another thought has literally just hit me concerning this.

 

The a'dam relies on nausea and pain to stop a female from embracing the source (Unlike the domination band).

 

We know that Aiel can bear an extreme (any) amount of pain.

 

Will this nausea be enough to stop them embracing the source and channeling without a suldam's permission?

 

Interesting, it may be that the WO can withstand this.

 

However, from what I gather from the a'dam, its not the fear of pain that stops the person channeling, but the nausea actually prevents this channeling. I cant seem to explain this very well. I think its like, someone squirting lemon in your eye (if it has ever happened you will know) that, although you may be able to resist the pain and what not, the fact is, it still momentarily blinds you. In another example, to clarify, its like somebody pinning your arm behind your back, again, even though you may be able to resist the pain, the fact remains you are still unable to move your arm.

 

Thats what I gathered the a'dam does. See when Egwene is captured in tGH, she tries to do the forbidden things, but the nausea physically prevents her from moving, even though her will is strong, it makes it impossible.

 

Anyway, i could be wrong, but I doubt that anyone could defy the a'dam in that way. Besides, i think this is irrelivant, the whole "sul'dam can channel aswell" plot has been brewing since tGH, and it is most likely going to be the thing that brings down the damane empire. The shaido Wise Ones, i doubt, will play a part in this, its too late to start another plotline

IIRC, Egwene was forced to hold onto the water pitcher she'd been unable to pick up after thinking of it as a weapon (because her hand would cramp up when she reached for it), so she could still actually hold onto it but it was excruciatingly painful. There are certain things that you simply can't do while leashed, such as channel unless the sul'dam wills it. The majority of damane training appears to be mostly along the lines of classical conditioning, a la Pavlov's dogs. To break a damane you have to condition her until she reflexively does what you want her to. I don't see the WO being very susceptible to this.

 

I'm not sure whether the fact that Sul'dam can learn to channel will really have a big impact, regardless of what's been laid down. Fortuona already knows -- indeed, she knows she herself could learn to channel -- and she dismissed this offhandedly. The information that sul'dam can learn to channel has already been of use; it explains the nature of the a'dam and how it works. Additionally, the plot was used in WH for Egeanin to coerce Bethamin and Seta (sp?) to help Mat escape Ebou Dar.

[Val Mickey]

The Seanchan could double their weapons if they let their sul'dam channel but...

 

Who will sul'dam the sul'dam?

 

 

[ROB_88]

There are certain things that you simply can't do while leashed, such as channel unless the sul'dam wills it.

i don't have the book eith me so i can't be vompletely sure, but i'm 90% certain that in TGH when egwene is her damane room alone she once channels a little in an attempt to find out how to take of the necklace, so it is possible to do it, even with the nausea

[Random Man]

There are certain things that you simply can't do while leashed, such as channel unless the sul'dam wills it.

i don't have the book eith me so i can't be vompletely sure, but i'm 90% certain that in TGH when egwene is her damane room alone she once channels a little in an attempt to find out how to take of the necklace, so it is possible to do it, even with the nausea

I thought she found the way to take it off without channeling, much as Mat did with the Sea Folk wavemistress. I could be wrong, though.

[Lambada]

There are certain things that you simply can't do while leashed, such as channel unless the sul'dam wills it.

i don't have the book eith me so i can't be vompletely sure, but i'm 90% certain that in TGH when egwene is her damane room alone she once channels a little in an attempt to find out how to take of the necklace, so it is possible to do it, even with the nausea

I thought she found the way to take it off without channeling, much as Mat did with the Sea Folk wavemistress. I could be wrong, though.

 

Just looked it up.

The exact wording is:

"If a damane tried to channel without a sul'dam wearing her bracelet, she felt sick, and the more of the Power she channeled, the sicker she became." - TGH Ch 42 'Falme' Page 595 UK Paperback.

Noticec how it states that she does manage to channel

This makes my theory of the a'dam being ineffective re: stopping chanelling even more plausible.

 

UPDATE: very slightly later she also details how she was made to Juggle balls of light when no-one was holding her collar. So it can be done - and is usually done to re-enforce how painful it is (even the memory of this juggling make Egwene shudder)... but as Aiel do not care about pain....

 

UPDATE 2: Egwene was also made to walk across the room carrying her own bracelet - she screamed from the cramps that had come. (i.e. moving without a sul'dam)

 

It looks like the a'dam may actually be totally ineffective against the Wise Ones.

 

(If you're wondering why i'm so slow at updating with the next sentence - blame the audiobooks :P)

[Kaznen]

 

UPDATE 2: Egwene was also made to walk across the room carrying her own bracelet - she screamed from the cramps that had come. (i.e. moving without a sul'dam)

 

 

I think a sul'dam will be surprised the first time it happens.

[Jeangray]

 

It looks like the a'dam may actually be totally ineffective against the Wise Ones.

 

Very true. I wonder if they aren't only still collared because they feel that they deserve to be made da'tsang for their massive failure vis-a-vis their people and being damane is the next best thing?

IMHO, for Seanchan to abandon a'dam they need to be shown that it isn't 100% effective. And it would be nice if the Shaido WOs slightly redeemed themselves for the huge amount of suckage that they have put us through  :D.

 

[Millon]

All of Seanchan is dead anyways. The only thing left is what's on this side of the ocean. When it comes out that Fortuona can actually Channel and that all the Empress' before her could (as we can easily tell by the descriptions that the Crystal Throne is by all means a Ter'Angreal) Seanchan will have to forge forward in a new direction in terms of there governance to adapt to the new/old world order. The Seanchan are going to be second people completely broken. First the Aie with there remnant of a remnant and now the return of all the Sul'dam to there native people who have been convinced of the truth. I think the Aiel WO damane will in some way aide in bringing to light the secrets of the Sul'dam. I don't know how but that's how it's going to go down.

[Alternate34]

Its possible that some very select few may resist and end up being killed or permanently imprisoned, but most likely the Wise Ones will break.

 

Also, I am not completely sure that the revelation that sul'dam can channel would immediately topple the structure.  There is still a clear dividing line between sul'dam and damane.  Damane spark and sul'dam must be taught.  Cultural practices are hard to change even with facts.  Additionally, there is an incentive for them to keep the old ways aside from the force of tradition.  It prevents a women who actually channel (not just can learn to channel) from dominating.  If all the sparkers are collared, no one can teach the non-sparkers, so everything would remain stable with regards to channelling in society.

[Random Man]

There are certain things that you simply can't do while leashed, such as channel unless the sul'dam wills it.

i don't have the book eith me so i can't be vompletely sure, but i'm 90% certain that in TGH when egwene is her damane room alone she once channels a little in an attempt to find out how to take of the necklace, so it is possible to do it, even with the nausea

I thought she found the way to take it off without channeling, much as Mat did with the Sea Folk wavemistress. I could be wrong, though.

 

Just looked it up.

The exact wording is:

"If a damane tried to channel without a sul'dam wearing her bracelet, she felt sick, and the more of the Power she channeled, the sicker she became." - TGH Ch 42 'Falme' Page 595 UK Paperback.

Noticec how it states that she does manage to channel

This makes my theory of the a'dam being ineffective re: stopping chanelling even more plausible.

 

UPDATE: very slightly later she also details how she was made to Juggle balls of light when no-one was holding her collar. So it can be done - and is usually done to re-enforce how painful it is (even the memory of this juggling make Egwene shudder)... but as Aiel do not care about pain....

 

UPDATE 2: Egwene was also made to walk across the room carrying her own bracelet - she screamed from the cramps that had come. (i.e. moving without a sul'dam)

 

It looks like the a'dam may actually be totally ineffective against the Wise Ones.

 

(If you're wondering why i'm so slow at updating with the next sentence - blame the audiobooks :P)

Thanks, Lambada, I haven't read TGH since I was doing my "research" for my WOT parody of the Tower of Ghengi rescue back in 2005. According to this, if no one's holding the leash, you can certainly channel, although to what extent the nausea will inhibit the ability to hold onto the Source isn't really that clear, since this is Egwene pre-Aiel training here. We know that the Wise Ones say you can't channel while in labor, so for the Wise Ones I'd say that if childbirth is the point where they can't control Saidar, anything short of that might be fair game.

[Durinax]

I think their pride may cause them to break sooner, since being treated as subhuman, and as pets would certainly do damage to their pride