Has Perrin already thrown a major wrench into the Seanchan sul’dam damane machin

[SvetSedi]

Has Perrin already thrown a major wrench into the Seanchan sul’dam damane machine?

 

I’m sure some of this has been addressed before but I could not find it addressed as a specific subject.

 

- To free Faile, he gave the Seanchan all the captured Shaido Wise Ones.

 

- Now I am not all that impressed with the Shaido, but they are still mostly Aiel.

 

- Even Egwene with less than a year with the Wise Ones was able to “handle” considerable punishment in the last two books.    That is with less than a year training?

 

- The Aiel as a whole mostly do not fear death and can take considerable torture.

 

- Even the Shaido Wise Ones were extremely discussed by Galina’s inability to resist torture.    (Not that I value the Shaido WO’s opinion that much.

 

- Aiel and particularly Wise Ones certainly should be able to far out do Egwene in the ability to resist torture.   After all they have lived their entire lives like that.  

 

- And it is not just the torture issue; it is the “Honor” issue.    To be Gishang (sp) is one thing but to be leashed & treated as a pet will go extremely against the Aiel nature.    For a Wise One to be leashed would be even worse.    Aren’t they supposed to be exempt from the Gishang thing?

 

So will [doodie] hit the Seanchan Fan or not?      Didn’t the Aiel with Rand see some captive Aiel when they set up the meeting?     Were some of those WOs?    (I think so, but don’t have the book right now.)     Still just because some few were seen, it does not mean that the WO’s were accepting the position or slave training.

 

Something has got to come of this in ToM!

 

 

Luckers edit: language.

[Astus]

The Sea Folk were also proud folk, yet they were broken. The a'dam is a device that strips a woman of almost everything, reduces her to less than a pet. The twisted thing about it is that the woman then views herself as such. I doubt the Aiel sensibility can overcome the a'dam.

[SvetSedi]

The Sea Folk were also proud folk, yet they were broken. The a'dam is a device that strips a woman of almost everything, reduces her to less than a pet. The twisted thing about it is that the woman then views herself as such. I doubt the Aiel sensibility can overcome the a'dam.

Well actually, I was addressing the Aiel & Wise Ones resistance to torture.  Not comparing WOs to Sea Folk or even AS "proudness".  I do not think that we have seen any culture of Sea Folk or AS training to "Ignore the Pain" and "Laugh at the Pain" that we see with the Aiel.  This would be the Technique that Egwene used "crudely" (I don't consider her to be an expert in this) in the last two books to help her resist giving in to the WT.

[Kathleen]

My fear is that his giving them the SWO will actually be the opposite of what you believe. The WT Aes Sedai who were broken will give them a lot of knowledge and have a lot to help them with. I'm sure the WO, though they haven't been formally trained in the White Tower, have been trained by the other ones through out generations and have a lot of their own knowledge that if they are broken could give the Seanchan an added advantage. Even if they don't have anything to add they still have a huge amount of new people, that will give them a numbers advantage.

[Rootbeer]

They could just restrict them access to the One Power for a time, starve them a bit, then allow them access when they are obedient, as a reward or such.

I'm sure even the strongest willed WO would crack in a matter of months, if not weeks.

 

However, I doubt their slavery of channelers would last very long, considering the type of man Mat, aka Prince of Ravens, is, and considering their own Queen may or may not channel herself one day.

And Egwene's dream seem to hint towards a final solution that would suit both the Seanchan people and the WT.

I theorize that the almighty Dragons(Not Rand) would play a very critical role in this development as well, but it's only harmless speculation.

[Kaznen]

The Aiel philosophy of torture is embrace the pain.  It's okay to scream your head off and cry your eyes out while they are torturing you.  But once the torture stops, the pain stops. 

 

Acknowledging pain is fine in ji'e'toh, there is no loss of honor.  No one can live in the Three Fold Land and not feel pain.

 

The loss of honor is how others see you.  The shame comes from the pain breaking you, not in receiving it.  Something tells me the Sul'Dams will trot the WO Damanes before the other captured Aiel to see them be tortured.  And that will strengthen their resolve instead of weaken it.

 

I also should note the Seanchan do not know about the whole year and a day rule for Gai'shain.  When the Aiel decide they ore no longer Gai'shain the Seanchan will be caught on their butts when the perfect and da'covals just leave, and when somebody tries to stop them..... 

[wvlr2]

The Aiel philosophy of torture is embrace the pain.  It's okay to scream your head off and cry your eyes out while they are torturing you.  But once the torture stops, the pain stops.  

 

Acknowledging pain is fine in <em>ji'e'toh</em>, there is no loss of honor.  No one can live in the Three Fold Land and not feel pain.

 

The loss of honor is how others see you.  The shame comes from the pain breaking you, not in receiving it.  Something tells me the Sul'Dams will trot the WO Damanes before the other captured Aiel to see them be tortured.  And that will strengthen their resolve instead of weaken it.

 

I also should note the Seanchan do not know about the whole year and a day rule for Gai'shain.  When the Aiel decide they ore no longer Gai'shain the Seanchan will be caught on their butts when the perfect and da'covals just leave, and when somebody tries to stop them.....  

 

I agree.    But of added note.    The Shaido regular Aiel will have 1 Year.    But they had quite a few regular Aiel that started their year long ago.    The Year does not start over for them - so they could go any day.    Plus, the Wise Ones can not be made Gai'shain.  So if some of the Gai'shain end their 1 year say 2 weeks after the capture.    Since they were Gai'shain they will be given servent jobs all over - like feeding the Damanes.    Once they are released by their 1 Year obligation and since they are proud Aiel that do not like seeing any WOs inproperly treated, they could well go up to the rooms just like they do at feeding time & free some just like Mat did.  Also having been been servents for a while - they more than likely (either from their own experience or from talking to other Gai'shain) will know more than one location for prisoners.  Hopefully the freed Wise Ones will be a little smarter than the Sea Folk escapees.  The Weak WOs can take all the Non-WO Damanes using collars - and additional collars to use on their way out.  Hopefully collering a good number of Sul'dam.    Being Shaido WOs they may well not have anything against permenently inslaving all the Seanchan channelers that they can get.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think the WO will be tamed as easily as all of the Seanchan captives. Damane training isnt about torture, the collar allows the sul'dam to control EVERYTHING the damane do, the price of trying to disobey is not simply pain, it is disabling the damane, No, the damane do not stop resisting because of torture, but the fact they can do nothing to resist. 

 

Anyway, even if they do try and resist, the Sul'dam can force them weather they resist or not,

[Cirin]

I think the WO will be tamed as easily as all of the Seanchan captives. Damane training isnt about torture, the collar allows the sul'dam to control EVERYTHING the damane do, the price of trying to disobey is not simply pain, it is disabling the damane, No, the damane do not stop resisting because of torture, but the fact they can do nothing to resist. 

 

Anyway, even if they do try and resist, the Sul'dam can force them weather they resist or not,

 

I agree with this.  After all, Rand is capable of dealing with torture as well, and we saw what happened when he was collared.  It's not a simple matter of pain - it's about domination.

[Kaznen]

I think the WO will be tamed as easily as all of the Seanchan captives. Damane training isnt about torture, the collar allows the sul'dam to control EVERYTHING the damane do, the price of trying to disobey is not simply pain, it is disabling the damane, No, the damane do not stop resisting because of torture, but the fact they can do nothing to resist. 

 

Anyway, even if they do try and resist, the Sul'dam can force them weather they resist or not,

 

I agree with this.  After all, Rand is capable of dealing with torture as well, and we saw what happened when he was collared.  It's not a simple matter of pain - it's about domination.

Remember the Aiel were the only people who defeat Hawkwing.  The Seanchan way of thinking and Aiel way of thinking are to different.  The Seanchan don't know how to break an Aiel because the tactics they use fit into the Aiel way of life.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think the WO will be tamed as easily as all of the Seanchan captives. Damane training isnt about torture, the collar allows the sul'dam to control EVERYTHING the damane do, the price of trying to disobey is not simply pain, it is disabling the damane, No, the damane do not stop resisting because of torture, but the fact they can do nothing to resist. 

 

Anyway, even if they do try and resist, the Sul'dam can force them weather they resist or not,

 

I agree with this.  After all, Rand is capable of dealing with torture as well, and we saw what happened when he was collared.  It's not a simple matter of pain - it's about domination.

Remember the Aiel were the only people who defeat Hawkwing.  The Seanchan way of thinking and Aiel way of thinking are to different.  The Seanchan don't know how to break an Aiel because the tactics they use fit into the Aiel way of life.

 

did you read it, they dont have to break them to use them, they will be forced to do what the Sul'dam wants through the leash, they cant help it, they could try to resist, but to no effect, they cant uncollar themselves, and they cant attack the Sul'dam, so they would be rendered usless anyway

[ROB_88]

I think the WO will be tamed as easily as all of the Seanchan captives. Damane training isnt about torture, the collar allows the sul'dam to control EVERYTHING the damane do, the price of trying to disobey is not simply pain, it is disabling the damane, No, the damane do not stop resisting because of torture, but the fact they can do nothing to resist. 

 

Anyway, even if they do try and resist, the Sul'dam can force them weather they resist or not,

 

I agree with this.  After all, Rand is capable of dealing with torture as well, and we saw what happened when he was collared.  It's not a simple matter of pain - it's about domination.

 

that was a completely different sort of collar. the Domination band Rand had lets Semirhage control his flows on her own through him.

the a'dam however is still about making the damane channel by themselves, if they are really good at resisting the sul'dams methods of persuasion they may very well be able to disobey

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think the WO will be tamed as easily as all of the Seanchan captives. Damane training isnt about torture, the collar allows the sul'dam to control EVERYTHING the damane do, the price of trying to disobey is not simply pain, it is disabling the damane, No, the damane do not stop resisting because of torture, but the fact they can do nothing to resist. 

 

Anyway, even if they do try and resist, the Sul'dam can force them weather they resist or not,

 

I agree with this.  After all, Rand is capable of dealing with torture as well, and we saw what happened when he was collared.  It's not a simple matter of pain - it's about domination.

 

that was a completely different sort of collar. the Domination band Rand had lets Semirhage control his flows on her own through him.

the a'dam however is still about making the damane channel by themselves, if they are really good at resisting the sul'dams methods of persuasion they may very well be able to disobey

 

yes they can disobey in a fashion, but it wouldnt do anything. they cant actually do anything against anyone, if they disobey, the collar tortures them, they probably could resist the torturing, but it would render them useless, and Aiel hate anything to do with uselessness, so in that case, they would crack.

[Kaznen]

I think the WO will be tamed as easily as all of the Seanchan captives. Damane training isnt about torture, the collar allows the sul'dam to control EVERYTHING the damane do, the price of trying to disobey is not simply pain, it is disabling the damane, No, the damane do not stop resisting because of torture, but the fact they can do nothing to resist. 

 

Anyway, even if they do try and resist, the Sul'dam can force them weather they resist or not,

 

I agree with this.  After all, Rand is capable of dealing with torture as well, and we saw what happened when he was collared.  It's not a simple matter of pain - it's about domination.

Remember the Aiel were the only people who defeat Hawkwing.  The Seanchan way of thinking and Aiel way of thinking are to different.  The Seanchan don't know how to break an Aiel because the tactics they use fit into the Aiel way of life.

 

did you read it, they dont have to break them to use them, they will be forced to do what the Sul'dam wants through the leash, they cant help it, they could try to resist, but to no effect, they cant uncollar themselves, and they cant attack the Sul'dam, so they would be rendered usless anyway

Most Sul'dam can't weave the OP themselves through a daman.  Only the master Sul'dams can do that.

 

And they can't make an damane walk, or eat.  They can use the leashes to prevent damane from doing stuff but can't force them to do stuff.

[wvlr2]

that was a completely different sort of collar. the Domination band Rand had lets Semirhage control his flows on her own through him.

the a'dam however is still about making the damane channel by themselves, if they are really good at resisting the sul'dams methods of persuasion they may very well be able to disobey

Exactly!   These controlling devices are completely different.   And the female A'dam is subject to the damane's mental state.   For instance - when Egwene was collared she used a water flask to hit a Sul'dam.   It did not stop her from doing that - but once she did that she could not use the water flask to drink because it was a weapon.   That lasted until she "convinced" herself that it was not a weapon.   So the female a'dam is very much subject to the damane's viewpoint.  

 

For instance, the Aiel only think swords are weapons so they will not have any problem using the knife to treat the sul'dam's lung/back/throat problem.    I think this last one is a bit far fetched but it does show how the Aiel mindset is significantly different from the Seanchan.

 

I think that they will use a method I mentioned above to break free, but if they don't - there are other options.   For instance, the Aiel are not afraid of death so if they were otherwise defeated by the thing, they could simply wait until they were "in battle" to resist.   Sure that would mean that the Sul'dam would torture them - in the middle of battle - not a good place.    Probably would result in the Seanchan forces getting killed.    But the WOs would not care - well they might care but they could be willing to do it.

 

Many other options...

[Fel]

I would love to see a scene of damane training of the SWO's where the sul'dam is trying to break the wise one...  Unlike the domination band, they can "only" torture them and make them feel horrible/pleasurable things.  The Aiel general life outlook and training would make this highly ineffective and I can easily see a wise one walking over to her sul'dam during that torture (or just after it) and snapping her neck saying that it was time to wake from the dream...

 

[Kaznen]

I would love to see a scene of damane training of the SWO's where the sul'dam is trying to break the wise one...  Unlike the domination band, they can "only" torture them and make them feel horrible/pleasurable things.  The Aiel general life outlook and training would make this highly ineffective and I can easily see a wise one walking over to her sul'dam during that torture (or just after it) and snapping her neck saying that it was time to wake from the dream...

 

Exactly, life in the Three Fold Land is not easy.  They learned to deal with the pain.

[SvetSedi]

Thanks, it is nice to know that a few people feel the same way I do.  I know that it is not a sure thing but with what we know about them I think some variation might happen.

[Kaznen]

I think the Seanchan will end up choking on their Aiel captives.

[balefireruinssteaks]

The a'dam bends the damane's will to the sul'dam.  With the Domination band your will is forcibly taken from you; the a'dam slowly breaks you to it.  I don't think that it has a lot to do with whether a person is strong enough like the Aiel or not...it's much the same as saidar...you learn to surrender to it.

 

I think the sul'dam even talk of the damane surrendering to the a'dam, so it's a slower process but it eventually gets everyone given to the a'dam.  There doesn't seem to be any stories of damane who are unruly or rebellious; they are submitted to the a'dam in their training.

 

If the Wise Ones are not freed, then they will eventually give themselves over to the a'dam.

[Barid Bel Medar]

While its true, the WO wont break easily, it could take hundreds of years (but it would happen eventually, they are only human and can resist so much, 100 years is extreme)

Once the sul'dam decide that the WO cant be broken in time, they would most likely just leave them in a room or something, unable to do anything

[farthammer]

Well given Egwenes a pal of Elayne and Elayne just happens to know a little bit about bonding a woman warder, why couldn't captured AS just find opportunities to make the sul`dam their warders.  Then all they'd have to do is just go pound beer and split and laugh from a safe distance when their leash holders keep stumbling into the empresses room to give her the finger or tell her drunk stories.  Or maybe they just won't like to experience amplified pain the way damane do.

[primus]

Everyone has their breaking point.  Even a Stone Dog can be broken, so I would expect that even a Wise One will eventually give in.  Plus the Sheido gave into the easy living of having slaves, and are may be more suseptable to giving into a sul'dam.  The SWO are criminals and at some level deserve to be collared.  I wouldn't be surprised if an agreement is made that channelers who perform criminal acts will become damane.  I doubt Egwene would agree to it, but even a penanace of some time could be spent as a damane instead of working on a farm. 

[Sid]

Egwene is told by Renna in TGH within an hour of being collared that damane sometimes have their hands and tongues removed, because damane have no need for such things.  This is similar to what Perrin did to his Aiel captive in CoT, and threatened to continue to do (they broke almost immediately).  I don't think Wise Ones would stand up to that kind of treatment for long.  The Seanchan have had 1000 years or so to perfect their 'training'.

[Random Man]

Egwene is told by Renna in TGH within an hour of being collared that damane sometimes have their hands and tongues removed, because damane have no need for such things.  This is similar to what Perrin did to his Aiel captive in CoT, and threatened to continue to do (they broke almost immediately).  I don't think Wise Ones would stand up to that kind of treatment for long.  The Seanchan have had 1000 years or so to perfect their 'training'.

Remember, though, it wasn't the actual torture done to the Aiel by Perrin that broke him, but the sheer humiliation of him becoming useless -- effectually Da'tsang. A channeling Wise One doesn't need her hands or her tongue to remain useful. That said, though, the Seanchan are pretty good at breaking damane, given enough time, and I'm sure there is a way to break a Wise One -- given enough time. Do the Seanchan have enough time?