The Amyrlin's Anger

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ever since reading tGS Elaida's fortelling that the Dragon Reborn would know the Amyrlin's anger has bothered me to no end.

 

First of all, I would like to say, this is not particularly Egwene bashing, I liked her plot and development throughout the latest novels in the series.

 

The thing that bothers me is that Rand will be beaten down by Egwene as she unleashes her anger, as the foretelling seems to suggest, of course this does not mean she will manage to cow him, but it is a possibility that I dread for a number of reasons. If somehow Egwene manages to subdue Rand and use him for the White Tower's end (however good their intentions) I will be exteremly annoyed.

 

To explain this, I use some quotes from tGS to suggest why Egwene does not deserve to "leash" Rand as she wishes, it would be an extreme disappointment and contradiction to the whole AS/Rand plot.

 

First of all, although this is minor and can be understood, she is a hypocrite concerning Male Channelers

 

We shall have to deal with the Dragon's foolishness at a later date. Perhaps his men acted without his direct orders, but Rand must take responsibility. Men. Bonding women!

Chapter 8: Clean Shirts

Why should it be so abominable, men bonding women? When she has no queries about bonding Asha'man or Warders. Rand on the other hand, realizes that any bonding between the Black and White Tower will cause friction, and offers his men to prevent a war. Now it may be argued that Egwene's thoughts are perfectly sound, however IMO this bias against men cannot be in order to win the Last Battle.

 

The Dragon Reborn should not have been left to run free, but since when has the White Tower been in the business of kidnappingand forcing people to our will? Are we not known as the most subtle and careful of all people? Do we not pride ourselves on being able to make others do as they should, all the while letting them think it was their idea? Chapter 16: In the White Tower

 

Now to me this is exactly why Egwene cannot subdue Rand, one of the main themes (at least in my opinion) has been the fact that the AS arrogance led to many of their problems with the rest of the world and that because they think they are much better and know better than everyone else they are blinded. I believe that the theme that RJ was trying to push forward (shown by LTT remembering the fact that Women AS refused to help seal the bore which led to the disaster and Taint) was that men and women must work together to suceed.

As this quote suggests, Egwene is as bad as any AS in trying to manipulate people, and, if the Dragon "knows the amyrlin's anger" and is subdued, Egwene will press the advantage in the eyes of the AS, trying to manipulate Rand, not work with him, no matter her good intentions.

 

But you are all that we have. We are all that the world has.

Chapter 46: To be Forged Again

Now this can be seen as an attempt to encourage the sisters, but IMO this shows the height of AS arrogance, Egwene believes that only the WT stands between the world and Shadow, she still believes she knows best, that AS know best and will manipulate anyone for their own ends, when to suceed, I believe, the world must work together. If Rand bends to Egwene's will, she will try and control him.

 

Conclusion: While I admired Egwene's strength and giving the Tower a wakeup call, if Rand "Knows her anger" and bends to her will, she will manipulate him for the Tower's own ends (which is in all probability the same as his) but the point is that the whole series, the forces of light have been constantly conflicting, and AS share no small part of the blame for the distrust and conflict between forces that should by all means be working together. So, my main concern is that the evidence suggests that Rand will be cowed or subdued somehow by the "Amyrlin's anger" which would, for me, defeat the whole purpose and suggest that Egwene has the right of this, which i do not think she does, and niether does Rand (at least until VoG, we will have to see him afterwards)

 

So basically, if Egwene manages to control Rand, I will be very angry, as it is unjust, she has no right.

I admit this may be hard to follow, I havent had much sleep so it may sound like rambling, I apologize for that hahah.

 

 

Thoughts?

[yoniy0]

I think you're right to some degree, but we all just need to get over this. Elaida's never been wrong before, that I know of.

Considering the things that Rand will need to deal with come TG, I think he might as well start by handling Egwene's anger. If he can't manage that, I fear for the world.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think you're right to some degree, but we all just need to get over this. Elaida's never been wrong before, that I know of.

Considering the things that Rand will need to deal with come TG, I think he might as well start by handling Egwene's anger. If he can't manage that, I fear for the world.

 

I know this fortelling is true, and I know that Egwene is going to get angry at Rand, thats all well and good, what I am worried about, is Egwene managing to subdue him, (beacuse it sounds to me that the foretelling is suggesting that Rand is going to get taught a lesson or brought down by her in righetous fury, or at least i can help but think) and if that happens, it will ruin the story, beacuse while i like egwene, her attitude towards Rand should not be "rewarded" so to say

[gambril]

I lean more towards that "knowing the Amyrlin's anger" is Rand and Egwene understanding each other.  Possibly anger towards the Seanchan?  Shrug, who knows.  Besides, I just don't see Rand qualing at Egwene's anger, it just doesn't fit with Rands character even post VOG.  If Rand "bows" before Egwene and her "almighty" (insert laugh here) anger then...nothing works anymore.  It's nigh impossible for me to believe that RJ wrote this series and built up all this tension between AS and the Dragon Reborn just so he would end up bowing to Egwene and the AS.  Can you picture the story progressing in a satisfying manner if this were to happen?  I can't.

 

Besides all that, those quotes you have of Egwene and her thoughts towards Rands are disgusting.  Egwene is awesome for the most part but she really needs a huge slap in the face in this regard.  Her arrogance regarding Aes Sedai importance is laughable to us readers since Aes Sedai as a whole have been nothing but a failure as far I'm concerned.  Let us hope that Nynaeve can help Egwene out here while returning the favor to Egwene.  (the favor being "slapping" her down in a similar fashion that Egwene delivered to Nynaeve earlier on in the series :)

[yoniy0]

I get that. I was saying, if Rand can't handle her, we're all in big trouble.

 

But from story-telling point of view, I don't think you need to worry. RJ was all about how cooperation leads to great achievements, so I'll bet the super-kids are all going to work together in the end.

[water_seeker]

I like how Egwene has grown.  For a while, I didn't like her (starting around the time she learned she could bully Nynaeve...mainly because I felt she was being dishonest...).

 

I see this going something like this:

 

Egwene:  "[yells at Rand for all the crap he's supposed to be responsible for]"

 

Rand:  "You're absolutely right.  We don't really have time to discuss the mess I've made, but I need your help to fix it.  By the way, any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated."

 

Egwene is a little stunned, but realizes he's right and they need to work together.

 

Well, maybe not that easy, but something like that.

[SuperFade]

I will be extremely disappointed if Rand simply takes it and/or kneels to Egwene. She has totally (or maybe willfully?) forgotten Moiraine's most important revelation to her; Rand cannot be forcibly controlled, you have to treat him like Saidar and surrender youself totally if you want to help him.

 

Egwene still hasn't gotten rid of the abominable Aes Sedai arrogance that started this whole mess. Just look at the end of Knife of Dreams; the Aes Sedai have the audacity to be outraged by the bonding of sisters, despite the fact that they were sent to destroy the Black Tower and the alternative was to kill them all. One of Egwene's Dreams was symbolic of her tearing down the White Tower. I don't think this has happened yet, because Egwene hasn't really done anything that equates to that. Hopefully it will come to pass eventually and the ingrained arrogance and sense of entitlement will be torn down with it.

[MikeRiley]

I like how Egwene has grown.  For a while, I didn't like her (starting around the time she learned she could bully Nynaeve...mainly because I felt she was being dishonest...).

 

I see this going something like this:

 

Egwene:  "[yells at Rand for all the crap he's supposed to be responsible for]"

 

Rand:  "You're absolutely right.  We don't really have time to discuss the mess I've made, but I need your help to fix it.  By the way, any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated."

 

Egwene is a little stunned, but realizes he's right and they need to work together.

 

Well, maybe not that easy, but something like that.

 

 

It'd go more like this:

 

Egwene: "[yells at Rand for all the crap he's supposed to be responsible for]"

 

Rand: "You're absolutely right.  We don't really have time to discuss the mess I've made, but I need your help to fix it.  By the way, any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated."

 

Egwene: You know Rand, you really shouldn't be arguing right now. You should know there's no time to be dealing with this, so this is what we should do...

 

Rand: But, I just..  ::) ok.

 

 

 

In all seriousness though, the wonder girls all believe they know what's best and that also has been one of the themes in the series. Look how they rushed off in The Great Hunt to save the day for Rand when he wasn't even in trouble. All they did was bungle stuff and cause Falme to explode in chaos making it more difficult for Rand. It was easy for them to believe Rand didn't know what he was doing but because they were going to be Aes Sedai someday they automatically knew better. They saved the day with the male a'dam then pretty much shrugged it off not seeing to its actual destruction (passing it to somebody else = just give it to a darkfriend and save time). Then with the bowl of winds they pretty much kidnapped Rand's best general for a few books. If Rand knows Egwene's anger then you can bet she'll know his too. Rand's been through too much and he's too different a person than Egwene knew and she won't be able to control him.

[SuperFade]

On a related note, how will Rand and Egwene meet? If she summoned him to the White Tower would he go? Or will it be a carefully negotiated meeting place on 'neutral' territory? I think it would be the second, I doubt Rand would willingly go alone to the White Tower and I don't think the Aes Sedai there would appreciate him coming along with however many Ashaman he has.

[FarShainMael]

At ths point (end of tGS) does Egwene know/believe that saidin has been cleansed? Is her objection to men bonding women the fear that the man will go mad and drag the woman into that madness, whereas if a woman bonds a man she will be able to release the bond if that starts to happen?

 

[nolirion]

I don't think Egwene is going to be harsh with him , she should see that in the circumstance he did far better that anyone would .

Know that she understand the burden of a leader she should get over the all mighty aes sedai crap and get ready for kicking some wild Dark spawn ass's

[SuperFade]

I don't think Egwene is going to be harsh with him , she should see that in the circumstance he did far better that anyone would .

Know that she understand the burden of a leader she should get over the all mighty aes sedai crap and get ready for kicking some wild Dark spawn ass's

 

If only. Nearly every thought regarding Rand that we've seen in Egwene's POV is how he needs to be controlled and how much of a mess he's making things. The only slight moment of sympathy was when she is put in the deep cells and compares her treatment with Rand's, even though Rand had it far worse than her.

 

She should be able to empathise with him about the burdens of leadership, but then Egwene only controls the White Tower and Tar Valon whereas Rand, directly or indirectly, rules Tear, Illian, Cairhein, Arad Doman and the Aiel. He has far more on his plate than Egwene.

[Morsker]

At ths point (end of tGS) does Egwene know/believe that saidin has been cleansed? Is her objection to men bonding women the fear that the man will go mad and drag the woman into that madness, whereas if a woman bonds a man she will be able to release the bond if that starts to happen?

 

It reads more like cultural bias than something reasoned and utilitarian to me. At some point in her character development she caved into custom on the Three Oaths, and became more of an Aes Sedai nationalist. The conflict reminds me of that between the Pope and Emperor in the Middle Ages, Egwene being the Pope.

[FarShainMael]

That's a possibility, certainly, but it doesn't answer my question! Does Egwene currently know that saidin has been cleansed? (And by Rand, incidentally?)

 

[SuperFade]

Siuan tells her in TGS. The only ones who know that Rand was the one who did it are the ones who were there with him at the time.

[DemandredFO]

I agree that in the beginning the wondergirls knew they knew best but I make them as pigheaded as another poster.  with Falme they were tricked and also they needed to be there because Ingtar wouldn't have got his redemption if Rand hadn't hesitated and Mat wouldn't have blown the horn.  Elayne and Nyneave have grown and for a while Egwene seemed to be growing to and then she did a 180.  I wonder if Arangar had any hand in that.

As for when Rand and Egwene meet; it will probably be after the Battle of Tarvalon with Rand and maybe Fortuona coming to lift the siege.  Egwene as usual will be totally ungrateful and start railing at Rand.  Rand takes this in silence and then says over his shoulder Moiraine please deal with this spoiled child, I have more important things to do.  Being completly ignored Egwene's head eventually explodes from apaplexy.

[MikeRiley]

They didn't have to be there. If they weren't there then something else would have happened instead that doesn't factor them into the equation. The Horn probably didn't have to be sounded there, either. Being tricked and having everything end well doesn't change why they went in the first place.

 

I think Egwene knows Rand was involved in the cleansing of Saidin but I also think she has doubts it really happened. The White Tower was not officially involved in the event so it can't have ended well. We see a number of Aes Sedai take this stance with a "how can we be sure" attitude.

[FarShainMael]

Siuan tells her in TGS. The only ones who know that Rand was the one who did it are the ones who were there with him at the time.

 

Thanks, I'll look out for that on my re-read. currently on WH; Alanna's just fainted. Can't think why.. (irony alert)

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

thank the light i see most people agree with me here, Egwene, while doing some commendable work in the WT, is a far way from dealing with Rand and working with him. Thats why i am worried with the whole "know anger" thing, because Egwene is on a roll at the end of tGS paying out the AS and setting them down, i hope this does not continue with Rand, beacuse she needs to realize that the White Tower is not the Creator, and that the Dragon Reborn is as capable as any AS, even more capable than Egwene, Rand thinks about his actions and is not afraid to admit he is wrong and needs help (at least in some cases and I believe post VoG he will return to that man).

 

It is as min says in tGS

 

If you'd explained to me how he regarded you," Tam said, "it might have gone differently. Burn me! This is what I get for listening to Aes Sedai."

This is what you get for being wool-headed and ignoring what you are told!" Nynaeve interjected.

"This is what we all get," Min said, "for assuming we can make him do what we want."

 

If Rand bowed to Egwene now, it would defeat the purpose of what the quote said, and frankly, although I consider this my favorite novel series, I would not read past that point. Egwene needs to learn that the White Tower is not the centre of the universe and does not know better than everyone else.

[GB]

 

I, as well, agree that Egwene suddenly starts acting all Aes Sedai and being arrogant and I-Know-what-best-for-everyone, it would suck.

 

I liked her chapters in the TGS, used to start hating her(my fav female character is Nynaeve)

 

and I think knowing the Amuyrlin anger does not really imply Egwene started shouting at Rand, for instance Rand could just understand and learn why Egwene is pissed off (Black Tower and Seanchan Raid) and then he would give her a helping hand and there we go, he knows her anger and tries to help her.

 

Though I doubt things will be easy and clear.

 

 

[farthammer]

Well what is the number one thing Egwene gets angry about?  The Seanchan.  The WT just experienced the first assault by them, and even if they don't repeat it, it at least seems likely they will have more problems with them until it gets better.  Anyway, while all this is going on, suppose Egwene finally discovers the fact that Mat is now one of the most powerful figures in the Seanchan empire and not only has he done nothing, but he's just straight up disappeared.  So she winds up communicating with Rand at some point and also learns that he knew just enough about what's going on with Mat that she might've been able to act sooner to halt the advances.

 

I didn't actually mean this for a theory but something I thought could justify getting angry at Rand over.  I truly do hate her though.

[water_seeker]

I think I got it this time...

 

Rand needs to get Egwene's support so he gates to the WT.  He has to avoid possibly hostile AS so he gates to her quarters...where she's bathing.  He then proceeds to know her anger.  :o

[White_star]

I think I got it this time...

 

Rand needs to get Egwene's support so he gates to the WT.  He has to avoid possibly hostile AS so he gates to her quarters...where she's bathing.  He then proceeds to know her anger.  :o

Well, since she barged in on him while he was bathing in (LoC?), I guess that would make them even. ;)

[yoniy0]

I think I got it this time...

 

Rand needs to get Egwene's support so he gates to the WT.  He has to avoid possibly hostile AS so he gates to her quarters...where she's bathing.  He then proceeds to know her anger.  :o

Oh, no. The last thing we need now is for Gawyn to find Rand peeping on Egwene. We'll never hear the end of TAHT.

[gambril]

Well what is the number one thing Egwene gets angry about?  The Seanchan.  The WT just experienced the first assault by them, and even if they don't repeat it, it at least seems likely they will have more problems with them until it gets better.  Anyway, while all this is going on, suppose Egwene finally discovers the fact that Mat is now one of the most powerful figures in the Seanchan empire and not only has he done nothing, but he's just straight up disappeared.  So she winds up communicating with Rand at some point and also learns that he knew just enough about what's going on with Mat that she might've been able to act sooner to halt the advances.

 

I didn't actually mean this for a theory but something I thought could justify getting angry at Rand over.  I truly do hate her though.

 

Could we also add in that Egwene's the one that manipulated Mat in the first place into ending up in Ebou Dar?  I imagine whatever raises Egwene's ire towards Rand will be something that is highly hypocritical of her, no doubt.  Egwene's angry at Rand for Aes Sedai being bonded by the despicible, froathing at the mouth black coated Ashamen.  I suppose she would have rather them been destroyed or perhaps ignore how they ended up in that situation in the first place.  She's angry at the Seanchan for attacking the white tower and leashing channelers but I wouldn't be suprised if she releases this anger at her childhood friend Rand in a flurry of tears and sniffles.