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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Will we or have we seen anyone that's been turned evil?


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We've heard lots of times that a channeler is susceptible to being turned into a dark friend, I think the first time we heard that was from Moraine in book 1.

so as every book comes out I keep expecting it to happen at some point. There is no reason for RJ to include it in the books if he didn't plan to use it.

 

I'm still reading the Gathering Storm, so please don't spoil me if it happens in this book, or is revealed in the book.

 

My only guess is that when Isam and Luc ran into each other one of them was turned if not both.

However, we've never seen Slayer channel, so there is no reason to believe that he can.

 

Do we know if any Dark Sisters, or any other Darkfriends have actually been turned against their will?

 

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If you're talking about the use of thirteen myrdraal and darkfriend channelers (I believe that's it), I don't think we've seen that so far. But it does seem like something that was almost foreshadowed. Some theorize that it was done to Taim, but it remains only a theory.

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Someone once said (I think it was actually RJ) that if you talk about a gun on the mantleplace in Scene 1, you need to use it by Scene 3 or forget it.

 

I think that the 13x13 notion has been dropped.  For instance, take Semirhage torturing that one Aes Sedai so that Arangar could know enough about her to say she'd been her friend and work her way into the rebel camp.  Why not just turn her to the Dark Side and have her bring Arangar to the camp?  Why, in the twenty years that Ishamael knew that Lews Therin had been reborn and he had the Darkfriends searching for him and kicked off the Seanchan Return for when he showed up, did he not get the vast majority of the White Tower on his side?

 

Whatever rationale there was for introducing this concept in the first couple of books of the series, that rationale has not survived until this point in the series.  It would actually be kind of lame to start having it be something occuring at this point.

 

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Someone once said (I think it was actually RJ) that if you talk about a gun on the mantleplace in Scene 1, you need to use it by Scene 3 or forget it.

 

I think that the 13x13 notion has been dropped.

 

 

You're talking about Checkhov's Gun.  RJ didn't originally say that.  Technically speaking, when they mention "Act 1," and "Act 3," they're talking about the Beginning Act and the Ending Act in a movie sequence.  Which means, we are still in Act 3 (we haven't passed it yet), so it's perfectly viable for it still to be used.  The Sad Bracelets could also be another example of Chekhov's gun, being introduced in the beginning of the series (or near, in the 4th book), meaning that if they have been used within the ending of the series (in the last 3 or 4 books), they would constitute.

 

 

 

Whatever rationale there was for introducing this concept in the first couple of books of the series, that rationale has not survived until this point in the series.  It would actually be kind of lame to start having it be something occuring at this point.

 

 

Except that it wouldn't be lame or irrational, if it was someone close to Rand or Team Light.  Taim's a possibility, but he just seems too evil to me - seems likely he made his own bed.  What about someone like Alanna though, who has done some pretty crazy things, and people still do talk about where she stands.  I would say that if she was a 13x13-Turned, then Team Dark has a good mole on the other side, being Bonded and all to the savior of mankind.

 

 

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My main problem is with the fact that there are so many instances where this would have been an effective weapon to use where it's been ignored.

 

Why did Semirhage torture that Aes Sedai for information instead of turning her?  It would have been a far more effective method to get the same thing done and, while not wanting to give away TGS spoilers, that ended up being an issue.

 

Ishamael knew the Last Battle was coming and he knew that the White Tower was the number one force that would oppose him.  Why, after he had 20 years of preparation, are there any Aes Sedai who don't work for him?  That seems nonsensical.  Similarly, why did Messana bother to enlarge the rifts within the Tower as opposed to getting rid of all the rifts by turning them to her side?  Even if they didn't do it for everyone, why is there a Sitter or Ajah Head who's not Black Ajah?

 

If it turns out that this is still an existing plot device, there are a serious number of WTF moments which need to be addressed.  I think they've abandoned it.

 

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My main problem is with the fact that there are so many instances where this would have been an effective weapon to use where it's been ignored.

 

Why did Semirhage torture that Aes Sedai for information instead of turning her?  It would have been a far more effective method to get the same thing done and, while not wanting to give away TGS spoilers, that ended up being an issue.

 

Ishamael knew the Last Battle was coming and he knew that the White Tower was the number one force that would oppose him.  Why, after he had 20 years of preparation, are there any Aes Sedai who don't work for him?  That seems nonsensical.  Similarly, why did Messana bother to enlarge the rifts within the Tower as opposed to getting rid of all the rifts by turning them to her side?  Even if they didn't do it for everyone, why is there a Sitter or Ajah Head who's not Black Ajah?

 

If it turns out that this is still an existing plot device, there are a serious number of WTF moments which need to be addressed.  I think they've abandoned it.

 

 

Semirhage tortured that Aes Sedai because she enjoys torturing people. The reason it hasn't been used yet is the fact that if leaders of people in prominent positions started behaving differently people would notice. Also even if these Aes Sedai were to become Dark Friends they would still have the Three Oaths on them.

 

As for the 13 by 13 idea It changed into becoming the amount of women needed to completely control a male channeler as seen in the cases of Rand's distrust of the amount of Aes Sedai in the room before the kidnapping and the reason he hasn't seen the Borderlanders yet.

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Ya, I get Semirhage's motivation, I don't get the motivation of Ishamael or whomever sent the Aes Sedai to her.  It's a silly and ineffective way to get a result they have a far better way getting.  Also, the BA has access to the Oath Rod, so that's not much of an issue.

 

Nobody noticed all the BA's in prominent positions before this.  Nobody noticed that Barthanes was a DF.  Nobody noticed that one of the High Lords of Tear is a DF.  Nobody noticed any of the other DF's in prominent positions.  The idea that they can't do it because people will notice doesn't really hold up.  Even if it did make people notice, however, why would it be a big deal?  This would be an end game run to ramp up the power of the Dark Side right at the Last Battle.  It gets him all the people who can channel on his side and denies them to Rand. 

 

There are just too many benefits to it as a tool and I think that's why it was quietly put aside and never mentioned except in the internet forums since the second or third book.  It's the WoT equivalent of Sylar conveniently forgetting half of the powers he has in the hopes that the audience doesn't notice.  There is no why behind it more complex than because it skews the storyline too badly to keep it in.

 

 

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logistics.

You need to get 13 darkfriend channelers and 13 myrdraal all in the same place, at the same time, without anyone noticing. Those darkfriend channelers need to know the weaves that need to be used. You also need to keep the person your going to turn from allerting anyone. and that person also has to be a channeler. the 13x13 method only works on channelers.

Also, it just makes that person nastier (and a darkfriend of course). bringing out the worst of their personality, so while people might notice they had changed, they would still be them just harsher.

So much easier to just torture and then kill. especially if your a sadist like Semirhage.

 

Mind you I do think Taim was turned like this, but if it were an easy thing to get done, we would see a lot more channelers suddenly becoming a nasty version of themselves, and we haven't.

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Didn't the Aes Sedai that Semirhage kill end up being used in the transmigration of one of the dead forsaken? Just a thought, I don't really remember.

 

This trick could have potential use in TAR. It hasn't happened yet but we know the Black sisters that fled the tower all took ter'angreal that give access to it. Not that they still have all of them, or anything.

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Didn't the Aes Sedai that Semirhage kill end up being used in the transmigration of one of the dead forsaken? Just a thought, I don't really remember.

 

 

 

Cyndane. Granted, this is just a theory, nothing has been confirmed. But there are some suggestive clues in the books.

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Jordan spoke about the reason the 13/13 trick has not been used heaps.

 

Punisher: Have you ever thought about reinstituting some of the old ideas from earlier books? For example, in The Dragon Reborn you had a situation with thirteen dark sisters and thirteen Myrddraal to forcibly convert someone to the darker side of things. It seems you have abandoned that. Do you think you might have something like that pop up again at some unexpected moment? It doesn't seem realistic for the Black Ajah to abandon the idea.

 

RJ: I have not abandoned this notion about a circle of thirteen Aes Sedai and thirteen Myrddraal can convert someone to the Shadow. It is not an easy situation to set up, in fact it's a very difficult situation to set up. It has to be worth the effort, you don't go to all of this effort to just convert anyone. In fact it might be better for your plans to manipulate someone against their will than as a willing ally.

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How exactly is it difficult to set up?  Galina or Talene tells one of the Aes Sedai in their Ajah that they need to go on a secret mission and not tell anyone, which is not an order anyone would disobey from their Ajah Head or one of their Sitters.  They send them to Town X to talk to Person Y and when they get there, some BA and myrdraal are waiting for them and boom.  After you get enough of a force together to deal with discovery, you can just ward the myrdraal and bring them into the basement of the White Tower and finish up the job

 

Given that he's known for 20 years that Lews Therin was reborn and the Last Battle was imminent, I don't see any decent rationale for Ishamael not putting something like this in motion.  It's not totally simple, but not all that difficult either, especially given the two decade timeframe he had to put it in motion.

 

The whole "it's difficult to set up" thing sounds more like Hiro's rationales for not time travelling everytime something negative happened as opposed to a legitimate reason that's not just a hacked on pseudo-explanation to try and deal with the unintended consequences of something he found didn't really work and wished he hadn't put in in the first place.

 

I really don't think we're going to see anything involving the 13x13 concept in the last couple of books in the series.  I think it's been dead since book two.

 

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Whether or not it has been scrapped is irrelevant...RJ and BS, along with the rest of the crew, know what is going to happen or what hasn't.  Speculation on our part leads to more speculation, when we can just wait until October and find out for ourselves...unless it makes it into aMol.  I've only read the series once, so I don't consider myself an authority on the subject, but I'm sure there are other instances where RJ used a devious plot mechanic off-screen.  We've never once seen anyone find or open a stasis-box, yet we know they exist.  Taim could have been turned this way; in fact, any one of the BA that exists in the current time-span could have been turned this way.  We don't have any insight at all into how they chose the BA, and even Verin's account hasn't been developed that fully. 

 

Think of it like a house developer.  They have to put all the plumbing fixtures in place before they pour the slab.  Would it make sense for the contractor to install your bathroom vanity and toilet before they even put the walls up?  No.  They set the piping into the foundation, then when all the walls are up and all the interior is set up, they put in the bathtub.

 

 

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Yes, but speculation on what will be in the next books is actually the entire point of the forum.  Once you get past the opening posts of:

 

"I like these books"

"Ya, me too"

 

there's not much besides speculation for people to spend time here doing.  We could, of course, go outside and play with the kids or take the wife to a nice dinner or (god forbid) do some work instead of posting on internet boards, but if we're going to be here, we're going to sit around and speculate.

 

Some of that speculation will be right and some will be wrong, but it's the main reason to be here at all.

 

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I have a feeling it happened to Taim because the situation was perfect.

 

You know who I think is going to tell us in they're POV at some point in the next 2 books that they were turned to the dark? Grandel, reading the BWB made me think this is true. There was such an extreme shift in her personality to the point where she became the polar opposite of what she was.

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Graendal was one of thefirst to turn, which means it is extremely unlikely that Aginor had not only managed to create the trollocs, but also studied the myrdraal enough to discover the possibility to use them for turning people.

 

 

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I think that this is the plan for Elayne.  That is why she was kidnapped in (COT?).  She was being kept alive while the other AS were killed for a reason, and what better reason than to turn the mother of Rand's children (and Rand's unborn children as well maybe?) to the shadow?

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I think that this is the plan for Elayne.  That is why she was kidnapped in (COT?).  She was being kept alive while the other AS were killed for a reason, and what better reason than to turn the mother of Rand's children (and Rand's unborn children as well maybe?) to the shadow?

 

it was KOD

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IIRC the 13*13 act came up during Egwene's Testing in TV, and she asked Sheriam about it, and Sheriam confirmed it was possible.. but then Sheriam is BA.

 

If sheriam wasn't lying.. then as to why it hasn't been used, maybe these days they don't have enough Myddraal available any more!

 

Also, I wondered if it had been done to Elan Morin Tedronai to turn him into Ishamael / Ba'alzamon, but perhaps that's unlikely.

 

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In KOD Prologue, Alviarin is concerned about Yukuri and Doesine. She thinks about having them kidnapped and using a circle on them, thinking she would guide the flows herself.  What could she be referring to but turning them with a 13x13 circle?

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Remember it was going to be used on Egwene I think so maybe Mesaana's going to try that.  Turning her might even be an improvement.  Posters are right the logistics are hard; getting the Myrdraal through to a close waygate, securing 13 channelers teaching them the weaves if they don't know, then kidnapping the one you want.

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