Taim is NOT a DF

[Barid Bel Medar]

First of all, this is just seeing what other people think, for myself, it seems that the evidence points to him being a DF nearly 99%, however, even though the A'M hunting Rand in FM say Taim wanted him killed and all the fuss about knowing things that only Forsaken know along with generally being a prick, there is nothing to conclusively prove that he is a DF.

I would like to see Taim turn out to be one of the "good guys" rather than proving everyones theory he is a DF beacuse he is a prick and hates Rand, i mean, not all the people that hate rand and want to kill him are DF eg. Niall etc..

 

In any case, as I said, it is a very slim possibility and I dont really believe it myself, just wanted to get some thoughts

[Samuel]

You and me both man  ;D

 

When I first read Lord Of Chaos, I thought Taim was really awesome. I instantly took to him. Not just thinking "Whoa, a badass", I genuinely liked him.

 

Then the series progressed and he got...well, naughty. Common sense tells me that I really should give in and admit, yes, he's a baddie, but dammit I want him to be good  :D

 

Perhaps a compromise-Taim was 13x13 turned? Good turned to bad?  ;)

 

Also, though this is a sketchy point at best, I don't think it is exactly RJ's style to make someone so very obviously "dark" (see Taim's "Lord Of Chaos" comment, the male Forsaken sigil, how Rand got all fired up and crazy near him, all the funny comments, like "so called Aiel", etcetera) and then go "Yeah guys, he was evil indeed.". It might well happen, but I think RJ liked to screw with us a bit more (see Asmodean  >:( ). Maybe Taim is like Verin, forced to be naughty  :D

 

But yes Barid Bel Medar, I think it would be awesome if there was a major plot twist in the Black Tower arc, and it turned out Taim wasn't exactly a Darkfriend, or evil.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Glad someone at least want that to happen, it came up as i was reading LoC (again lol) and i saw a few quotes  while rand is talking to him at the farm

 

Chapter 42: The Black Tower "You teach them healing?"(Rand)

"The little I know, first thing. Even before how not to sweat to death in this weather. A weapon loses its utility if it's goin to be laid up with the first wound. (Taim)

 

This doesnt sound like something a DF would say, they really wouldnt give a crap if people died.

 

Also

 

Chapter 42: The Black Tower

Shivering, he looked at Taim and was suprised to see concern on the man's face.

"You must hold on," Taim said softly. "If sanity can be held, you must. The price is too high, if you fail

 

Again, it doesnt seem very DF of him. Of course the main aguement about him gaining rands trust, thats fair enough, but that could be said about every action of every character, if he is a DF, he most likely got 13 by 13ned or is one damn excellent actor. but to me, that juts donsnt cut it, not with RJ writing it

[azrael.1289]

As much as I know it won't happen, I too want Taim to be a good guy. I really like his character and it would make fools of all the people arguing whether Taim is Demandred, Moridin or whatever...lol.

[Red Hand Man]

Glad someone at least want that to happen, it came up as i was reading LoC (again lol) and i saw a few quotes  while rand is talking to him at the farm

 

Chapter 42: The Black Tower "You teach them healing?"(Rand)

"The little I know, first thing. Even before how not to sweat to death in this weather. A weapon loses its utility if it's goin to be laid up with the first wound. (Taim)

 

This doesnt sound like something a DF would say, they really wouldnt give a crap if people died.

 

Also

 

Chapter 42: The Black Tower

Shivering, he looked at Taim and was suprised to see concern on the man's face.

"You must hold on," Taim said softly. "If sanity can be held, you must. The price is too high, if you fail

 

Again, it doesnt seem very DF of him. Of course the main aguement about him gaining rands trust, thats fair enough, but that could be said about every action of every character, if he is a DF, he most likely got 13 by 13ned or is one damn excellent actor. but to me, that juts donsnt cut it, not with RJ writing it

 

If Taim was trained by Ishamael, he may very well have been indoctrinated into the "turn the Dragon at all costs camp".

[Shard]

I can understand wanting a twist here with Taim because it seems to bother people when they figure out plot points way ahead of the revelation. For me Taim is so far down the dark path he could never be a "Good Guy". In fact I can't concieve how anyone BUT a DF would even know the phrase "Let The Lord of Chaos Rule" as we have heard that directly from the Do himself. At best Taim is out for himself which is true no matter what side he is on but it really doesn't look look like he is anything other then at least a DF if not a new Forsaken or Dreadlord.

 

As for healing even the Dark Forces have to maintain their troops how sterotypical that no bad guys should want to heal and maintain thier men. Semirhage was a great healer.

 

If Taim was ordered to keep Rand alive for the DO plans then he would want him to stay sane.

 

It is entirely possible that Taim was a Forced turned by a circle of 13 fade 13 BA.   

[fikkie77]

If Taim isn't a DF, then someone has been posing as Taim every now and then. Most probable candidate would be Demandred, but that only feels as a new version of 'Taimandred'.

I think Taim is a DF and I do think that he has been turned 13/13. It's not logical that DF Taim would first falsely claim to be the DR, gets caught, escapes and then turns to the real DR. It's just not logical that Ishamael would allow or order a DF to be a false dragon while he's busy turning the real dragon.

And we have a moment that the 13/13 could have occurred: he got off-screen just after he escaped his Aes Sedai guards. Maybe one of more of them were BA, arranged his escape only to bring him to more BA (to a total of 13) and 13 Myrddraal.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Causing death and destruction in the name of the dragon would suit the shadow. Further tainting the image of the dragon reborn, sowing chaos and effectively leaving the blight border along Saladea under manned and under strength when the go after Taim.

 

Personnally I would love to see Taim turn out to be not a dark friend but maybe a wannabe or being led on by the shadow and Logain turn out to be their spy in the Black Tower. Logain isn't though. Aran'gar wanted Logain killed or stilled in Lord Of Chaos but maybe he just wanted to kill a possible rival. Heck maybe Logain was turned and he just a bit more cute in his actions, more guile and less blunt like Taim.

 

It would seem though that Taim could of been turned by the black sisters who we were led to believe went to set him free.

[FarShainMael]

According to Min, Logain has glory coming, which would tend to count against him being a DF.

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Maybe his glory will be won against his desire. Kinda like Verin having to do nasty things as a black ajah member to stay close to them and study them, Logain will  have to something good to stay close to Rand.

 

I doubt he is but I would like to see it. Im not particularly fond of Logain as a character. It seems like Taim and Logain are heading for a confrontation and I hope Taim kicks his arse.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

According to Min, Logain has glory coming, which would tend to count against him being a DF.

 

 

Well, from a DF's point of view, getting promoted to Forsaken would be fairly glorious.  ;D

 

One of Taim or Logain is a DF and it's about 99.999% sure that it's Taim.  Sure, it's possible that we'll get a recap from the end of KoD from his perspective and find out that the full line was "'Let the Lord of Chaos rule'?  That's an odd note that Logain gave me - I wonder what he meant by it?", but I don't think it's very likely.

 

It seems to me that Logain's being set up to be a major player in a post-Rand world and they're going to need to have him do something impressive to merit that.  I think that'll be him killing/banishing Taim and doing an Egwene-style purge on the Black Tower and maybe knocking off a random Forsaken along the way.

[balefireruinssteaks]

It's not really unheard of for DF's to do things that would be considered "undarkfriendly" in order to maintain the illusion that they are in fact NOT darkfriends.

 

Elza Penfell was Black Ajah, yet she killed one of the Forsaken in order to make sure that the Dragon Reborn made it to the last battle.  (He had to make it no matter the cost, she said.  Very much like Taim's "you must hold on, the price is too high if you fail")  The motivation might be different than a non-DF; Elza says he must make it to the Last Battle so that the Dark One can defeat him there, for example.

 

Also, Careane is Black Ajah and she is as fervent about Zarya and Kristian as any non-BA Aes Sedai would be, them being runaways and what not. 

 

Each darkfriend is responsible for maintaining the illusion that they are not darkfriends so that they are not found out, especially in the White Tower and I imagine it would be that way in the Black Tower - though it seems like the DF Asha'man have this ridiculously arrogant attitude about it.

 

So...all that to say just because Taim ACTS like someone in the Light doesn't mean he is.  He's most likely a darkfriend.

[StefanR]

It's not really unheard of for DF's to do things that would be considered "undarkfriendly" in order to maintain the illusion that they are in fact NOT darkfriends.

 

Elza Penfell was Black Ajah, yet she killed one of the Forsaken in order to make sure that the Dragon Reborn made it to the last battle.  (He had to make it no matter the cost, she said.  Very much like Taim's "you must hold on, the price is too high if you fail")  The motivation might be different than a non-DF; Elza says he must make it to the Last Battle so that the Dark One can defeat him there, for example.

 

Also, Careane is Black Ajah and she is as fervent about Zarya and Kristian as any non-BA Aes Sedai would be, them being runaways and what not. 

 

Each darkfriend is responsible for maintaining the illusion that they are not darkfriends so that they are not found out, especially in the White Tower and I imagine it would be that way in the Black Tower - though it seems like the DF Asha'man have this ridiculously arrogant attitude about it.

 

So...all that to say just because Taim ACTS like someone in the Light doesn't mean he is.  He's most likely a darkfriend.

 

Elza had compulsion laid on her by Verin though...

[NetSlider]

Ok, without losing my mind on this, I have only one thing to say: "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule!" Source: Taim in the last chapter of Knife of Dreams

 

Come on! What other proof do we really need?!

[Samuel]

Ok, without losing my mind on this, I have only one thing to say: "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule!" Source: Taim in the last chapter of Knife of Dreams

 

Come on! What other proof do we really need?!

 

We've all read the book thanks :)

 

I think the point of this discussion is to muse over how Taim could not be a Darkfriend, in light of all the evidence-like the "Lord of Chaos" comment.

[Tom Sawyer]

Is it related to that other thread - "Trollocs - Misunderstood puppy dogs"?

 

[Shard]

So this thread is more along the lines if were to condem Taim let's make sure of his guilt?

[birtikidis]

i actually have a theory about Taim... I think he sees how hard and dark Rand himself has become and thinks that he is close to turning to the DO so he feels that he has to stop him.  Taim obviously wont trust anyone that is close to Rand.  I don't think that Taim is necessarily a DF, maybe just really narcissistic and cautious about Rand. 

[Awakened]

Has anyone considered that Taim's darkness might be a product of the taint on Saidin rather than a willing conversion to the Dark One? How long has he supposedly resisted the madness anyways?

[lordofsoup]

Taim had to be turned, who else would have freed him from the AS besides a DF.  What ever happened to the AS who were transporting him to the Tower?

[Graveyardhag]

Iv'e always thought he was 13x13 turned after Rand takes Dashiva from the black tower.

I figure it like this:

Taim hears of Rands amnesty, and heads off to join up, I have no thoughts on the seal, so I will leave that out of this one.

the DO sends Osan'gar to be Dashiva and do shadowy things.

Osan'gar starts working on Taim, something similiar to what Aran'gar/Halima was doing with Egwene.

  - We see in the books that Taim has very fast switches in mood, he's furious one second, concerned the next, When he hears that Rand is missing, he goes all out trying to find him. That sort of thing. Its either the madness or something else, and I think that something is Osan'gar.

Rand picks Osan'gar/Dashiva to take with him.

The shadow gives up and just goes ahead and turns Taim.

Taim is now a DF

 

 

Just how I think it went. I'd be interested to see if anyone else agree's at all  :D

[Fains nose]

What happened to the Black Ajah's plan to break him free, as we hear from that captured Black sister in the beginning of book 4?

[Owayn The Traveller]

Iv'e always thought he was 13x13 turned after Rand takes Dashiva from the black tower.

I figure it like this:

Taim hears of Rands amnesty, and heads off to join up, I have no thoughts on the seal, so I will leave that out of this one.

the DO sends Osan'gar to be Dashiva and do shadowy things.

Osan'gar starts working on Taim, something similiar to what Aran'gar/Halima was doing with Egwene.

  - We see in the books that Taim has very fast switches in mood, he's furious one second, concerned the next, When he hears that Rand is missing, he goes all out trying to find him. That sort of thing. Its either the madness or something else, and I think that something is Osan'gar.

Rand picks Osan'gar/Dashiva to take with him.

The shadow gives up and just goes ahead and turns Taim.

Taim is now a DF

 

 

Just how I think it went. I'd be interested to see if anyone else agree's at all  :D

 

Yes if Taim was a df at the time they sent Dasiva/Aginor/Oran'gar then the were doubling up on agents at the Black Tower. Taim was also leading the Tower at the time so Aginor couldn't really of done anything more effective than Taim. Is it is quite likely that he was doing something similiar to Aran'garn the rebel camp. After all their names mean both left and right or something and that just seems apt.

[fikkie77]

What happened to the Black Ajah's plan to break him free, as we hear from that captured Black sister in the beginning of book 4?

We know he was freed, we don't know whether the BA had anything to do with that.

[Ataxia]

I always kind of thought he was building his army at the BT for after TG. Maybe he figures he'll let Rand defeat the Dark One and then conquer the world with his army ? If he is a DF, then Id agree with the 13x13 thing.