Sell me on the books

[Hadilmir]

And that bit of foreshadowing is muddied somewhat by the exclusion of a certain Warder.  :D

Well duh, Lan's warder cloak makes him near invisible, so his ball was there, but invisible. (I'm kidding, I always throw Lan in with Moiraine as one person really)

 

Sorry, no can do on the Perrin business, it's too hard not to spoil anything important in his storyline. He's great until then though, enjoy it while you can.

[Auld Manriva]

I'm a big fan of GRRM's "never to be completed in my lifetime tale". This is NOT aSoIaF. It is never as gritty nor as graphic in its language. Different tale entirely.

 

RJ uses this as his basic premise. You're a small town sheep herder. Weird things begin happening, then some figure of legend, especially in your extremely isolated world, searches you out and tells you that you're gonna die if you don't go off with them and still might and that Oh BTW, it's very likely you're the Saviour of Humanity.

 

Does one say "Right then.. Off we go! OR does one go reluctantly and with a suspicious eye. EotW is a first book in a Very long series and merely begins the metamorphosis of five small pond fish into a vast and very dangerous ocean and how they are forced to grow into top of the food chain predators/movers and shakers of said body of water.

 

Lightning doesn't strike that Inn just as a lucky break. Rand calls it down, though he doesn't know that at first, when he does realize it, it scares the hell outta him because Men who can do that go mad and DIE a horrible death much like lepers. SO, he has this "Thing" he does not like to talk about, so does Perrin, as does Mat. This culture seems to me to be patterned more or less our 14th century in some ways and they do not relate to each other the way we do, and I've read other stories with similar character interactions that I've enjoyed, so I don't find it at all strange, cliched or otherwise "bush league".

 

Another premise/continuing thread is your "lack of communication" complaint. Get USED to it. Jordan uses lack of/mis-communication like a scalpel throughout this story. Also how mundane happenings become legend/prophecy/myth through the effects of time, distance and error of description (omission, exaggeration or outright lie). Example: take a room of people, whisper a sentence to one person and each in turn relates it to the next person, then the last person relates it back to you. It will not come close to resembling what you originally started with. This is a common military training excercise and RJ was an officer during Vietnam. This effect steers the plot constantly, making for very frustrating reading and the occasional vocal outcry. :o

 

Also get ready for String Theory, The Multi-verse etc. Jordan was also a physicist. Someone said this is our world but millennia into the future. Yes and No. This is a universe where Time is "circular" not linear as in ours. People are "reborn" or reincarnated as a matter of course and it is accepted by all. So with circular time history repeats itself with only variables due to decisions taken by people that "The Pattern" must then compensate for.... Confusing? Of course... this is a Deep story, not at all what you're thinking it is from reading only the first book and listening to bilge from wherever it is you've heard some of the comments you've related.

 

Good and Bad, Black and White are constantly going gray the further you read. The first book, again, is about young people with a VERY parochial view of things, from a VERY isolated part of their world. They see things without shading and the story (in EotW)is presented the same way for the most part.

 

And Nynaeve is a constant source of "WTF! Someone CHOKE HER" moments from her first appearance to her most recent, but with major "You GO girl" actions thrown in to make her exit a deplorable thought.

 

 

[King_Killer0]

I'm a big fan of GRRM's "never to be completed in my lifetime tale". This is NOT aSoIaF. It is never as gritty nor as graphic in its language. Different tale entirely.

 

RJ uses this as his basic premise. You're a small town sheep herder. Weird things begin happening, then some figure of legend, especially in your extremely isolated world, searches you out and tells you that you're gonna die if you don't go off with them and still might and that Oh BTW, it's very likely you're the Saviour of Humanity.

 

Does one say "Right then.. Off we go! OR does one go reluctantly and with a suspicious eye. EotW is a first book in a Very long series and merely begins the metamorphosis of five small pond fish into a vast and very dangerous ocean and how they are forced to grow into top of the food chain predators/movers and shakers of said body of water.

 

I'm not entirely sure what this entire section is in response to. I never said I expected an ASoIaF-esque adventure.

 

Lightning doesn't strike that Inn just as a lucky break. Rand calls it down, though he doesn't know that at first, when he does realize it, it scares the hell outta him because Men who can do that go mad and DIE a horrible death much like lepers. SO, he has this "Thing" he does not like to talk about, so does Perrin, as does Mat. This culture seems to me to be patterned more or less our 14th century in some ways and they do not relate to each other the way we do, and I've read other stories with similar character interactions that I've enjoyed, so I don't find it at all strange, cliched or otherwise "bush league".

 

Yes, I realize that, that was my point. Rand thinks it's just a lucky break, so he has no reason not to tell Moiraine. He may realize it was him later on when he thinks about it after be defeats Baalzamon (I keep accidentally spelling Baalzabub lol), but until that period he thought it was just luck, so I don't see why he doesn't tell Moiraine about it. And while they may not relate each to each other the way we do, this is not an emotional or social situation. It's a military one and for it to be most efficient, during ANY time period, that requires precise information, including reports. Which is why Moiraine not asking and Rand not telling about this incident is just plain absurd to me.

 

Another premise/continuing thread is your "lack of communication" complaint. Get USED to it. Jordan uses lack of/mis-communication like a scalpel throughout this story. Also how mundane happenings become legend/prophecy/myth through the effects of time, distance and error of description (omission, exaggeration or outright lie). Example: take a room of people, whisper a sentence to one person and each in turn relates it to the next person, then the last person relates it back to you. It will not come close to resembling what you originally started with. This is a common military training excercise and RJ was an officer during Vietnam. This effect steers the plot constantly, making for very frustrating reading and the occasional vocal outcry. :o

 

I can tell it's gonna be tough reading parts of these books :-\

 

Also get ready for String Theory, The Multi-verse etc. Jordan was also a physicist. Someone said this is our world but millennia into the future. Yes and No. This is a universe where Time is "circular" not linear as in ours. People are "reborn" or reincarnated as a matter of course and it is accepted by all. So with circular time history repeats itself with only variables due to decisions taken by people that "The Pattern" must then compensate for.... Confusing? Of course... this is a Deep story, not at all what you're thinking it is from reading only the first book and listening to bilge from wherever it is you've heard some of the comments you've related.

 

I like hearing that. My only question is just how do these people KNOW all this? Look at our world and see how many hundreds of different religions there are, and all the ones that were. And yes, every single part of the world seems to accept the existance of the Dark One, the Light, Creator, all that jazz. Given that it's a magical world, I'd expect atleast some coherency, but I'd expect plenty of theories on how the world works. Like how do they know that the One source never runs out? Maybe they just have a huge finite supply of it? Maybe it does run out, but the souls of dying people replenish it? Maybe it's explained in later books, so my complaint here may be moot, but it's a bit jarring to see such a whole continent under one belief system, with only small tiny variations.

 

Good and Bad, Black and White are constantly going gray the further you read. The first book, again, is about young people with a VERY parochial view of things, from a VERY isolated part of their world. They see things without shading and the story (in EotW)is presented the same way for the most part.

 

Fair enough, look forward to reading it then.

 

And Nynaeve is a constant source of "WTF! Someone CHOKE HER" moments from her first appearance to her most recent, but with major "You GO girl" actions thrown in to make her exit a deplorable thought.

 

Nynaeve annoys me, but Mat is the one who infuriates me with his stupidity. Hopefully the transition from "Village idiot" to "Cool guy" happens soon.

[ravenfier]

The knowlege comes from the last age when all of the questions except the big one_ the meaning of life, was answered.

[Agitel]

The first book is pretty cliche, but it starts to break from that as the series goes on.

 

The book starts out focused on a small group of characters but soon grows to encompass the entire world. This may be a turn off for you. Certainly the events of the world revolve around the main characters, but books 8-10 drift off into plenty of lengthy subplots, it may seem like Jordan bit off more than he could chew.

 

This is certainly the main turnoff for many would be readers. Of course, all of his here dig this kind of depth and scope, but it's not everyone's cup of tea.

 

I really don't consider Rand a Mary Sue, and there are plenty of other characters in the series as well, though the first book or two is primarily from Rand's POV.

 

I like hearing that. My only question is just how do these people KNOW all this? Look at our world and see how many hundreds of different religions there are, and all the ones that were. And yes, every single part of the world seems to accept the existance of the Dark One, the Light, Creator, all that jazz. Given that it's a magical world, I'd expect atleast some coherency, but I'd expect plenty of theories on how the world works. Like how do they know that the One source never runs out? Maybe they just have a huge finite supply of it? Maybe it does run out, but the souls of dying people replenish it? Maybe it's explained in later books, so my complaint here may be moot, but it's a bit jarring to see such a whole continent under one belief system, with only small tiny variations.

 

Prior to the Breaking, the world was united under one world government and one common language. It was both highly technologically advanced and also had far more advanced knowledge of the One Power, of which both men and women use.

 

Jordan uses limited knowledge in his characters very well (and very often). Not just from lack of communication, but from what people believe. A lot of what the Aes Sedai know are just things they've been carrying on for thousands of years since the Breaking. There really is no sort of research into the One Power. You'll find that many characters assume things.

 

That's not to say that they're right or wrong on how vast the One Power is. It's just what they've been taught, and it's likely something that was taught and researched before the Breaking.

 

Mat does get to be a bit more awesome in the third book, and he'll continue to grow on you. He really is very much a child in the first couple.

 

Be easy on Nynaeve and think of things from her perspective. Some strange woman comes and steals three young men from your village, a woman who belongs to an organization that is considered manipulative and untrustworthy to these country folks. Oh, she certainly is stubborn, but her frustration with Moiraine is very believable, I would think.

 

And when you get to the end of EotW, not everything is as it seems, okay?

[King_Killer0]

I'll see if Jordan can keep things interesting when he gets to the encompassing the rest of the world in his books before I say whether I think it's a good or bad that he did so.

 

And is there any info in how they united the world so much that they were all under one belief system? I find it difficult to believe that they managed to get all people to unite under one religion like that. And since the breaking, it was like 3000 years, right? Have no new religions or beliefs developed since then? Like I said, pretty much everyone seems to remain under the same belief system with any differences being negligible. The most I've seen from EotW was that that one city used the term peace as a 'good luck' sort of saying. (and of course some people think the dark one is the shiz, but I think that's the same belief system, just an inversion.)

 

And while I believe in the concept of limited knowledge where it makes sense, I'm infuriated when it appears when there is no reason for them to be there. The lightning incident is the prime example of that, for reasons I've already stated.

 

And on Nynaeve....Yeah, I don't get another thing. Her village was just attacked and is in the process of rebuilding. Moiraine takes the 3 men and Egwene away from her, so she tracks them to a city. Fair enough, Egwene is really close to her and Two River folk are stubborn. HOWEVER. When she agrees to go all over the world with them is when I scratch my head. Uh, does she have a powerful political position over there? Why is she off traveling with these people. I understand that she needs to get training or she'll die but she doesn't figure that out until they get separated, which is a good deal of time after she decided to go with them. I remember that she decided to follow because of Egwene, but doesn't she have stuff to do at the village? Which is in a state of panic, and she is the main healer, and has some political power there too? Does she really have time to follow the gang around when people are depending on her in two rivers?

[Agitel]

Keep in mind that there's the Village Council and the Woman's Circle to continue running things. Nynaeve was pretty much the head of the latter, but there's still a governing body in Emond's Field. Nynaeve pretty much considers herself a parent to the four kids, she pretty much helped raise all of them. Emond's Field can get by until she makes sure that the Emond's Fielders make it home safely.

 

As for the AoL, there's plenty of discussion over how such a society developed, mostly resulting in the aftermath of some great disasters and wars, but yeah. I will say that you'll meet plenty of cultural variations as you go, and even some apparent variations in religious like practices. The Aes Sedai have kept a pretty tight reign over the area you see in the map at the beginning, and I'd say that they're the dominating force in preserving history and philosophical beliefs from the AoL. If it's of any interest at all, you'll probably notice that much of their 'religion', if it could be called that, pulls a lot of influences from a smattering of mythologies and religions around the world... which should be telling, giving the cyclical nature the books claim (and our current time is supposed to be an Age on the Wheel). So if you wanted to continue in theory, at some point in the distant future in the books, there will be a great disaster, breaking the united culture and leaving people even worse off than the Breaking did, and from this scattering will result many religions and such...

 

But ah well, there's no reason to go off onto such tangents after just the EotW. That book is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Senexx]

I've only read the first few posts but if you wish to be sold on the books by the fans of the books, I'll keep it simple even though I don't know what a 'mary sue' is.

 

The Wheel of Time is a four dimensional story, it has width, breadth, depth and astonishing character development over time.

[Mr Ares]

And I disagree about people looking evil because they are. Some may look evil and happen to be evil, but it's never BECAUSE they are evil.

Prove it.

 

But they actually don't have reason to withhold information here.

People withhold information for all sorts of reasons, some very good, some petty.

They were chased by a darkfriend and lightning randomly stuck them.

Yes, that sounds perfectly plausible. I know I would go around telling people that my life was saved by a convenient bolt of lightning.

There is no logical reason why they wouldn't tell the truth about this.

No reason why they would.

 

Either way, unless the character becomes important in the book, an author shouldn't waste time describing him.

Why? In fact, look at Martin's bloated cast list, all his minor chracters, and tell me that we really need every last one of them. There's absolutely no reason why an author shouldn't give some detail to minor or background characters.

Some one else pointed out that he becomes important later on

Some one else was wrong. He reappears.

 

And it's not so much the insecurity as much as the feeble attempts to appear not to be so.

Sounds perfectly normal to me.

Acting casual about seeing a grand city, even when your awed by it, is absolutely pointless. It gives you no power over Moiraine by acting so

She isn't trying to get power over Moiraine then.

 

I honestly don't believe that because different people have different ways of expressing themselves. To know when a person is faking, they have to be a VERY bad liar, or you have to know the person fairly well to understand their body language. There is no real reason that the girl, who had not attacked them at that point, has cold eyes while Moiraine's are expressionless.

Some people just have cold eyes. You don't always need to know someone well to know that they're not very pleasant.

 

You need to understand that this isn't high school, it's pretty much a military extraction operation.

With none of the people involved being part of the military. Farmer, farmer, blacksmith's apprentice, innkeep's daughter, village Wisdom, bodyguard, Aes Sedai. Rand and co. are under no obligation to tell Moiraine anything if they don't want to - what can she do? She needs them. Why would they want to tell her?

 

Rand will probably annoy me, because I don't like characters who are inconsistent.

It's called a "character arc", not inconsistency.

Actually, I heard that if you want to, you can stop reading the series at Book 6, and just leave the final battle to your imagination. Is this true?

In the sense that you could do the same at any point, yes. In any more meaningful sense, no. Much of what is said about this series elsewhere is crap. Utter crap. Exaggerated and distorted beyond all recognition. This is a 14 book series, if you stop after book 6 you'll miss a lot. It's not as if things are ready for the end and they just keep stalling, there is still much to be done.

 

The knowlege comes from the last age when all of the questions except the big one_ the meaning of life, was answered.

I can answer that for you now, if you like.

 

And is there any info in how they united the world so much that they were all under one belief system?

No. And apparently Jordan considered the War of the power sufficent proof of their beliefs that things haven't schismed as much as our world.

 

And on Nynaeve....Yeah, I don't get another thing. Her village was just attacked and is in the process of rebuilding. Moiraine takes the 3 men and Egwene away from her, so she tracks them to a city. Fair enough, Egwene is really close to her and Two River folk are stubborn. HOWEVER. When she agrees to go all over the world with them is when I scratch my head. Uh, does she have a powerful political position over there? Why is she off traveling with these people. I understand that she needs to get training or she'll die but she doesn't figure that out until they get separated, which is a good deal of time after she decided to go with them. I remember that she decided to follow because of Egwene, but doesn't she have stuff to do at the village? Which is in a state of panic, and she is the main healer, and has some political power there too? Does she really have time to follow the gang around when people are depending on her in two rivers?

There are governing bodies in the village capable of surviving without her for a while, and they are composed of adults - Rand, Mat, Perrin and Egwene are all children, and need someone to look after them and bring them home safely, and that's what Nynaeve means to do. She needs training, and she also has the opportunity to learn more of Healing. Emond's Field can get another Wisdom for the time being. They can manage without her. They kids can't.

 

even though I don't know what a 'mary sue' is.

It was a term coined to describe overly idealised author self-inserts in fan fiction, but has since grown to encompass any character who is too powerful or similar without significant drawbacks. Everyone loves her, can learn anything very quickly, that sort of thing. Sometimes people attempt to derail it by including any character who they just don't like and who happens to be powerful or competent.

[King_Killer0]

Prove it.

 

I'm of the belief that there is no such thing as an evil action, only an evil motivation. And motivation isn't a tangible object, it cannot affect how you look at all.

 

People withhold information for all sorts of reasons, some very good, some petty.

 

I'm not denying that but there is no reason given, and Moiraine has every reason to find out. It makes absolutely no sense for Moiraine not to ask and Rand not to tell.

 

Yes, that sounds perfectly plausible. I know I would go around telling people that my life was saved by a convenient bolt of lightning.

I'm not sure what your saying. The fact that it's so implausible is one reason why they WOULD talk about it. It's not like they're known to be liars to their friends, and the implausible has been happening to them for a good while now. They are currently being chased by creatures that they almost wrote off to be fairy tales. Do you seriously think that after all that, that mat and Rand any one in the group would shrug them off as talking crazy?

No reason why they would.

uh...wut? There's every reason to tell them what they went through. Especially after they found out the truth about the dagger, they should have realized that not everything is as it might seem and they should talk to Moiraine so that they know they didn't accidentally do something that makes them even easier to find. Even if that thought it hasn't occurred to them, in terms of talking socially, this would be one of the best stories. "Guys, you would NOT believe what happened to us at this one inn we stayed at". Consider that they are part of a village where even a visit from a gleeman would be the talk of the town for a whole year. And keep in mind that Rand doesn't know the used he one power here. He thinks it was just a stroke of luck. As such, he has absolutely no reason not to talk about it. And Moiraine should want a full report on what happened. They've been seperated for what seems to be a month or more, with darkfriends chasing them at every corner. She KNOWS Darkfriends have been chasing them from the dagger and the rumors in a town. So many things could have happened during that time period that she'd have to be stupid not ask exactly what they went through. Again, I must stress, for Moiraine this is pretty much a military operation. Even if for some reason Rand didn't wnat to tell her what happened(which he really doesn't), Moiraine has every reason to try to get the info out of him because it could mean the difference between a failed or successful mission.

 

Why? In fact, look at Martin's bloated cast list, all his minor chracters, and tell me that we really need every last one of them. There's absolutely no reason why an author shouldn't give some detail to minor or background characters.

 

For the most part, Martin just gives them a name, personality and speech pattern to distinguish them, but he rarely goes on expositing them in detail the way Rand did for that one gaurd. Obviously this doesn't apply for every character, but on the whole, he gives each person an identity but little beyond that unless they need more. And that's the point here. Need. In the context of EotW, there is no need for us to learn about this guard. He does absolutely nothing. He could have been just as easily introduced in the book where he WOULD make an impact. As it is now, he just wastes the reader's time.

 

Some one else was wrong. He reappears.

I think you misread that, unless you mean to say that he is consistently a character that's given attention yet never has any impact on the plot.

 

Sounds perfectly normal to me.

Never said it isn't. People are pathetic in real life. But just because it's realistic doesn't mean it's going to endear me to her.

 

She isn't trying to get power over Moiraine then.

Are you kidding me? Her entire PoV is spent trying to one up moiraine. "Well, if she's not going to be in awe of the city, neither am I!" "I'm not stopping for a rest until she does!" It's a child's grab for a sense of empowerment, such as insisting on using swear words because 'that's what the big kids do', ignoring the irony that letting another person affect you so only gives them more power over you, and less power over yourself.

 

Some people just have cold eyes. You don't always need to know someone well to know that they're not very pleasant.

As a person who is often told that he first comes off as entirely unpleasant the first time you meet him, I disagree heavily. It's only after people get to know me do they come to respect and like me. You may not want to bother with a person because first impressions indicate that he or she is unpleasant, but you don't and can't know whether they is truly unpleasant or simply comes off that way at first. And this goes doubly to judging a person just based on their looks.

 

With none of the people involved being part of the military. Farmer, farmer, blacksmith's apprentice, innkeep's daughter, village Wisdom, bodyguard, Aes Sedai. Rand and co. are under no obligation to tell Moiraine anything if they don't want to - what can she do? She needs them. Why would they want to tell her?

 

Uh...are you kidding me? She has repeatedly saved them, does nothing but help them, and they know full well that darkfriends who DO want to hurt them are after them and they require protection. I can buy that they wouldn't tell her about stuff they have reason not to tell her, like the dreams, but unless they have some reason not to tell her things, logic would indicate to give her all the information she needs so she knows how best to protect them. You keep acting as if they have some sort of reason to not tell moiraine these things, but they do not, and they have every reason to do so, and Moiraine has more reasons to ask.

 

And just because they are not a part of a formal military force, they know the land, are trained in battling the enemy, and serve a higher order. They may not be part of an official military faction, but the Aes Sedai and Lan have all the attributes of a soldier in war, and as such, they should know basic things like the importance of as much good Intel as they can get their hands on.

 

It's called a "character arc", not inconsistency.

I meant in terms of quality. The person indicates that Mat's just inclines, Perrin's sharply declines after a while, and Rand goes up and down.

In the sense that you could do the same at any point, yes. In any more meaningful sense, no. Much of what is said about this series elsewhere is crap. Utter crap. Exaggerated and distorted beyond all recognition. This is a 14 book series, if you stop after book 6 you'll miss a lot. It's not as if things are ready for the end and they just keep stalling, there is still much to be done.

 

Their reasoning was this:The first three books makes a pretty good standalone trilogy as the origin of a Chosen One, where he collects his main allies, beats a starter villain, and the most difficult and important part, finally accepts his destiny. Same for the first six, by the end of which everyone has come into their power and made a mark on the world. One could read the first three or six novels, stop, and leave the actual Last Battle to the imagination or fanfic. Given the pace of the writing, though, getting from the Two Rivers to the Last Battle in six books would never have been remotely possible.

 

I don't know how much of that applies.

[Morsker]

Are you kidding me? Her entire PoV is spent trying to one up moiraine. "Well, if she's not going to be in awe of the city, neither am I!" "I'm not stopping for a rest until she does!" It's a child's grab for a sense of empowerment, such as insisting on using swear words because 'that's what the big kids do', ignoring the irony that letting another person affect you so only gives them more power over you, and less power over yourself.

I don't agree. Nynaeve learning to keep her emotions to herself, and hiding awe or weariness because it would make her lose face if she displayed it, is part of her growing up. She's used to indulging in outbursts of anger, and getting away with it from her authority back home, but now she's in a new situation where that won't work, and she has to learn self-control. She's not very good at it, and some of her motives are petty, but she's trying.

 

I agree it can be frustrating when the characters don't trust Moraine, but it doesn't strike me as unrealistic at all. People keep secrets from authority figures because it's a main way of preserving independence, and also just because they grow weary of criticism and disapproval. Kids are especially likely to keep secrets, and these characters are kids. And on top of that, Aes Sedai have a reputation as manipulators who can't be trusted.

 

Their reasoning was this:The first three books makes a pretty good standalone trilogy as the origin of a Chosen One, where he collects his main allies, beats a starter villain, and the most difficult and important part, finally accepts his destiny. Same for the first six, by the end of which everyone has come into their power and made a mark on the world. One could read the first three or six novels, stop, and leave the actual Last Battle to the imagination or fanfic. Given the pace of the writing, though, getting from the Two Rivers to the Last Battle in six books would never have been remotely possible.

That's an opinion people are welcome too, but for many it's probably outdated. The main source of frustration with the later books was waiting so long for the next one to be published, and not knowing when the series would end. Today, 1-12 are available immediately, and we can expect the last two in two years or so, and we know when the series will end.

[alligator]

For the most part, Martin just gives them a name, personality and speech pattern to distinguish them, but he rarely goes on expositing them in detail the way Rand did for that one gaurd. Obviously this doesn't apply for every character, but on the whole, he gives each person an identity but little beyond that unless they need more. And that's the point here. Need. In the context of EotW, there is no need for us to learn about this guard. He does absolutely nothing. He could have been just as easily introduced in the book where he WOULD make an impact. As it is now, he just wastes the reader's time.

 

I don't want to discourage, you, and I'm sure someone will disagree with me, but I'm going to go ahead and say it...

I don't think you'll enjoy WoT very much if you only want to read what is necessary.

For us fans, all the details are a good thing. It's world building and helps to immerse you wholly in the story. Are they always NEEDED for the plot? Well, sometimes they are awesome foreshadowing hints, but not always, no.

And that's just not everyone's cup of tea.

[King_Killer0]

I don't agree. Nynaeve learning to keep her emotions to herself, and hiding awe or weariness because it would make her lose face if she displayed it, is part of her growing up. She's used to indulging in outbursts of anger, and getting away with it from her authority back home, but now she's in a new situation where that won't work, and she has to learn self-control. She's not very good at it, and some of her motives are petty, but she's trying.

 

I guess that's one way of looking at it, but the text never indicated that she's trying to learn to have self control. The ONLY reason she seems to be doing it is because Moiraine is doing it and she wants to measure up. This does have the positive side effect of her controlling her anger better, but as I said before, it's motivation that counts imo.

 

I agree it can be frustrating when the characters don't trust Moraine, but it doesn't strike me as unrealistic at all. People keep secrets from authority figures because it's a main way of preserving independence, and also just because they grow weary of criticism and disapproval. Kids are especially likely to keep secrets, and these characters are kids. And on top of that, Aes Sedai have a reputation as manipulators who can't be trusted.

 

These people are 18 and older. Rand is 19 or 20, nearly an adult by our standards and if this book is following the traditions of typical medieval times culture, most boys are considered men at the age of 15 or so. I realize that he's lived in an isolated town so he doesn't have much experience beyond that, but some maturity is to be expected. But even if I bought that, the lightning incident is just a random thing that happened to him as far as he sees it. Unlike the dreams, which are directly connected to the reason Moiraine wants him, this would be as silly as him hiding the fact that he saw a rare bird (not an evil bird, just a rare bird) or something. Even if it's not something he'll mention in normal conversation because he doesn't deem it important enough, I find it unbelievable that he would hide it from Moiraine if she asked while under the threat of danger which he does not fully understand just because....What? If Moraine leaves for an hour, and he sees a rare bird in the first 10 minutes, and when she comes back, why wouldn't he tell her he just saw a rare bird but nothing else? What independence would he gain if he doesn't tell her? Does it not occur to him that with all the wierd stuff going on around him, that rare bird may be something more? This is perfectly translatable to the lightning incident, which he has no reason to hide and every reason to say.

 

I don't want to discourage, you, and I'm sure someone will disagree with me, but I'm going to go ahead and say it...

I don't think you'll enjoy WoT very much if you only want to read what is necessary.

For us fans, all the details are a good thing. It's world building and helps to immerse you wholly in the story. Are they always NEEDED for the plot? Well, sometimes they are awesome foreshadowing hints, but not always, no.

And that's just not everyone's cup of tea.

 

No, I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. I'm not the kind of person that demands absolutely no more detail than necessary. A little fat is good for the body. I don't even mind that gaurd that much, though he's the best example I could think of and he did seem pretty pointless.  But it's a tricky business, and I often got bored rather than immersed because I just wanted the show to go on, rather than get an exposition that will in no way affect the story. In some scenes, the level of exposition actually took me out of the scene because I imagined Moiraine telling the story of Manetheron for 20 minutes, some people sitting down, maybe offering a glass of water while she continued on because to talk for that long REALLY must take the breath out of you. But overall the level of detail doesn't bother me, I'd just catch a word here and a sentence there that could be cut with little difference made and it would tell the story much better. Added up, this can be a sizable chunk, but it's given to use in bits and pieces so it hasn't reached the point of truly annoying me.

[Agitel]

I think we should just let him read and not defend every single thing, cause this can go on forever and just build bitter emotions between us and between him and the books. I will say that there is a lot more depth to the world, characters, and cultures than you'll get from the first book, in fact, these are things that are built up over the course of many of the novels. There are lots of background details about Aes Sedai and the White Tower that will perhaps clear some things up later, and generally that applies to everything. The actual world-building gets very complex, though it may not seem like it from the first book or two. That doesn't explain away all the problems you may have with the novels, but it may be good to know. It's very easy to make assumptions.

 

I guess one detail that I'll add in is that young men would probably have it instinctively buried in their heads to avoid connecting themselves to odd and unexplainable supernatural occurrences, due to massive amounts of superstition (for good reason) about those types of things, and the stigma that being a young man with a remote possibility of being able to channel would bring.

 

Characters do have their reasons for doing things. While I don't think Jordan is as masterful at personalizing characters as Martin, I do think he is much better than many give him credit for.

 

If you think it's unbelievable, maybe it is. I don't know.

 

Ah well, look what I did, I'm defending again.

 

Happy reading. If you have any questions, ask, of course.

[King_Killer0]

I'd like to apologize if I offended anybody. But I enjoy discussions and debates, otherwise I would have never posted my thoughts on what I thought of the book here, for others to see and comment on. It just seems I naturally focus on pointing out flaws rather than congratulating praise. And I'm certainly not going to be bitter about the books because of this discussion, even if some people may be towards me. I'm honestly not getting at all worked up over anything said here. I just don't believe that anyone has offered a believable reason for why Rand didn't talk about that incident, nor why Moiraine would not ask about it. That's all. Sorry if I got on anyone's bad side because of it.

I guess one detail that I'll add in is that young men would probably have it instinctively buried in their heads to avoid connecting themselves to odd and unexplainable supernatural occurrences, due to massive amounts of superstition (for good reason) about those types of things, and the stigma that being a young man with a remote possibility of being able to channel would bring.

This is actually a good explanation and I WOULD buy this, but if rand thought that he channeled the one power, why wasn't he thinking about it more. When he realized he did channel it, he was panicking. If he thought it was remotely connected to the one power, how can he shrug it off just like so. But you said it's instinctive, so that he wasn't thinking about it may be the point, but that still doesn't explain why Moiraine didn't ask for a full report and if she did, he'd be forced to consciously think about it. Either he'd lie or omit it, but then his thoughts should be plagued with worry because he was conscious that he may have used the one power. Or he'd tell the truth, thinking it was pure luck and Moiraine would catch on to what it really was.

 

Anyway, if people still want to continue this discussion, I'm more than willing, but if they don't I understand.

[Agitel]

Well that's good to hear. I love debates, too. I've just seen some people get hot-headed and it doesn't end well. It's been awhile since I've read EotW, to be honest, so I can't remember everything. I remember them getting split up at Shagar Logoth and meeting up later in Caemlyn, I assume that's what you meant.

 

I've been doing some skimming of the book, and I think I found some key points. Rand was feverish during much of his trip. When Rand met up with Moiraine in the Queen's Blessing, even then he's wondering is she's trustworthy, and in doing so he compares her to what he remembers of Elaida from the Palace. And I... upon more reading, a hell of a lot went down at their first meet up. From Mat being sick, to realizing trollocs and fades were gathering around the city and needing an immediate way out, to Moiraine overhearing about Rand's visit with the Queen, to the two stories about blinding the Eye of the World, followed immediately by the revelation about the shared dreams.

 

To me, it seems like it'd be pretty easy to focus on those more immediate problems instead of grilling for specifics over what Moiraine likely already has a general idea of.

 

If none of that other stuff went down, yeah, I can see her wanting to sit down and talk about things... perhaps, but she's only human, just about forty-ish years old, and she's under a quite a lot of stress in regards to figuring these things out, not to mention likely very fatigued from doing what Healing she could on Mat.

 

And, as I said, she knows they've been hunted by darkfriends and fades, but the important thing is that she has everybody again and a lot of pressing issues to deal with.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Prove it.

I'm of the belief that there is no such thing as an evil action, only an evil motivation. And motivation isn't a tangible object, it cannot affect how you look at all.

A given emotion, such as anger, can be motivation, and that can affect your appearance.

 

People withhold information for all sorts of reasons, some very good, some petty.

 

I'm not denying that but there is no reason given, and Moiraine has every reason to find out. It makes absolutely no sense for Moiraine not to ask and Rand not to tell.

Rand has no reason to tell.

 

Yes, that sounds perfectly plausible. I know I would go around telling people that my life was saved by a convenient bolt of lightning.

I'm not sure what your saying. The fact that it's so implausible is one reason why they WOULD talk about it. It's not like they're known to be liars to their friends, and the implausible has been happening to them for a good while now. They are currently being chased by creatures that they almost wrote off to be fairy tales. Do you seriously think that after all that, that mat and Rand any one in the group would shrug them off as talking crazy?

Well, it does sound ever so sane, doesn't it? It's not like there are many good explanations - convenient bolt of lightning sounds rahter implausible

.

No reason why they would.

uh...wut? There's every reason to tell them what they went through. Especially after they found out the truth about the dagger, they should have realized that not everything is as it might seem and they should talk to Moiraine

Who they don't trust.

Even if that thought it hasn't occurred to them, in terms of talking socially, this would be one of the best stories. "Guys, you would NOT believe what happened to us at this one inn we stayed at".

"You're right, we don't believe that. Do you?"

Consider that they are part of a village where even a visit from a gleeman would be the talk of the town for a whole year. And keep in mind that Rand doesn't know the used he one power here. He thinks it was just a stroke of luck. As such, he has absolutely no reason not to talk about it.

...Because you automatically talk about your every stroke of luck?

And Moiraine should want a full report on what happened.

She can want what she wants, but they won't tell if they don't want to.

So many things could have happened during that time period that she'd have to be stupid not ask exactly what they went through.

And omitting a few details would be very easy. "Got caught. Escaped."

Again, I must stress, for Moiraine this is pretty much a military operation.

Moiraine is not a soldier in a modern military.

 

For the most part, Martin just gives them a name, personality and speech pattern to distinguish them, but he rarely goes on expositing them in detail the way Rand did for that one gaurd.

You mean where he was given a name and a personality?

And that's the point here. Need.

No. Much is done in books that doesn't "need" to be there. The plot would be just fine without some minor detail. But it adds to a richer, more full world. Giving some detail to minor characters beyond the minimum required for the plot is a perfectly valid stylistic choice.

As it is now, he just wastes the reader's time.

...Less than a minute of your precious time.

 

I think you misread that, unless you mean to say that he is consistently a character that's given attention yet never has any impact on the plot.

That's pretty much it. He reappears. He has yet to have any significant impact that couldn't be managed by Random guard#2 or similar.

 

Some people just have cold eyes. You don't always need to know someone well to know that they're not very pleasant.

As a person who is often told that he first comes off as entirely unpleasant the first time you meet him, I disagree heavily.

Well, that one example changes everything. Clearly there are no exceptions to the rule.

It's only after people get to know me do they come to respect and like me.

I may not have that much time.

 

With none of the people involved being part of the military. Farmer, farmer, blacksmith's apprentice, innkeep's daughter, village Wisdom, bodyguard, Aes Sedai. Rand and co. are under no obligation to tell Moiraine anything if they don't want to - what can she do? She needs them. Why would they want to tell her?

 

Uh...are you kidding me? She has repeatedly saved them, does nothing but help them, and they know full well that darkfriends who DO want to hurt them are after them and they require protection.

And she is quite willing to kill them to stop the Darkfriends getting their hands on them. By her own admission. She is not helping them out of the goodness of her heart.

I can buy that they wouldn't tell her about stuff they have reason not to tell her, like the dreams, but unless they have some reason not to tell her things, logic

"Only a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart."

You keep acting as if they have some sort of reason to not tell moiraine these things

It's not an act, it's a simple fact.

 

It's called a "character arc", not inconsistency.

I meant in terms of quality. The person indicates that Mat's just inclines, Perrin's sharply declines after a while, and Rand goes up and down.

No. Nothing like that was indicated.

 

Their reasoning was this:The first three books makes a pretty good standalone trilogy as the origin of a Chosen One, where he collects his main allies, beats a starter villain, and the most difficult and important part, finally accepts his destiny. Same for the first six, by the end of which everyone has come into their power and made a mark on the world. One could read the first three or six novels, stop, and leave the actual Last Battle to the imagination or fanfic. Given the pace of the writing, though, getting from the Two Rivers to the Last Battle in six books would never have been remotely possible.

 

I don't know how much of that applies.

By that reasoning, you could stop any time and leave the rest to fan fiction.

 

The ONLY reason she seems to be doing it is because Moiraine is doing it and she wants to measure up.

The only reason you see.

 

These people are 18 and older. Rand is 19 or 20, nearly an adult by our standards and if this book is following the traditions of typical medieval times culture

It isn't. It is not set in a mediaeval world.

this would be as silly as him hiding the fact that he saw a rare bird (not an evil bird, just a rare bird) or something.

Why would he mention this bird? He saw a bird, so what? It wouldn't necessarily come up. He could omit it just because it didn't seem important.

[King_Killer0]

A given emotion, such as anger, can be motivation, and that can affect your appearance.

No, it doesn't. You may scowl or something but muscles do that. Anger gives a person a reason to scowl, but it alone does nothing.

 

Rand has no reason to tell.

I refuse to discuss this with you if you are going to ignore arguments I've already addressed.

 

Well, it does sound ever so sane, doesn't it? It's not like there are many good explanations - convenient bolt of lightning sounds rahter implausible

I addressed this. In the very line you quoted.

 

"You're right, we don't believe that. Do you?"

 

I addressed this.

 

She can want what she wants, but they won't tell if they don't want to.

 

I addressed this.

 

Moiraine is not a soldier in a modern military.

 

No, she isn't a MODERN soldier. She's part of the unofficial Aes Sedai military in the war against the Dark one in the times of the future earth (or whereever this setting is). I addressed this. She may not be an official soldier part of a military faction, but for all intents and purposes, she is. 

 

You mean where he was given a name and a personality?

 

Martin does this through interaction. Jordan exposited it. There is a difference. I sorta addressed this.

 

No. Much is done in books that doesn't "need" to be there. The plot would be just fine without some minor detail. But it adds to a richer, more full world. Giving some detail to minor characters beyond the minimum required for the plot is a perfectly valid stylistic choice.

Not the way he did it. Instead of stopping all action just to tell us about this one guard, he should have shown his personality through action. For example, if Rand saw someone trying to sneak in, the guard would have looked asleep but he'd stop him anyway. This way, nothing would have stopped and the reader could have still been clued in on his hidden depths. That would be good writing. If Jordan couldn't have done that, he should have waited until the appropriate time to introduce him.

 

That's pretty much it. He reappears. He has yet to have any significant impact that couldn't be managed by Random guard#2 or similar.

Come on, there has to be SOMETHING. He gives off some REALLY good lines. He gives Rand some hints to something. If he literally never does anything, but keeps getting mentioned as if he's significant, then that's just a waste of the reader's time. It's not a crime to give some depth to the world you are portraying even if it doesn't advance the plot much, but if he literally does NOTHING then that's just bad writing. The reader KNOWS these are real people with real personalities, but that doesn't mean your suppose exposit it if they serve no purpose.

 

I may not have that much time.

I don't care if you do, but it's pretentious to the point of delusion to think you 'know' people based on appearances or first impressions.

 

And she is quite willing to kill them to stop the Darkfriends getting their hands on them. By her own admission. She is not helping them out of the goodness of her heart.

 

Which is why it'd be stupid to blab about things that would turn her against them. Otherwise, her mission is to protect them at all times, and to best do that she needs to know whats happened to them as much as possible. The dagger has shown what would happen if she doesn't. As far as Rand knows, the lightning is a freak incident. Hence, unless you can point out a reason why he wouldn't tell her, there is no reason why he should.

 

"Only a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart."

Only an idiot thinks emotion and logic oppose each other.

 

It's not an act, it's a simple fact.

OH, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were 'facting' as if they have some sort of reason to not tell moiraine these things.

 

 

...Are you actually trying to debate here or are you just speaking gibberish? If they have a reason to not tell her, then explain what it is. And make sure they are not reasons I have not already countered, unless you have some sort of counter argument against those responses.

 

No. Nothing like that was indicated.

Take that up with Hadilmir. He's the one who said it, I'm just responding on what I think my reaction to those things are going to be.

 

The only reason you see.

 

Obviously. From what I've read, that's the only reason she offered, so that's the only reason I see. Some others saw subtext in addition, and it's been discussed. If your only contribution to this is going to be pointing out that there could be other reasons that I missed, then you may as well stop posting. People who actually have something to add to the discussion can take care can use the extra space.

 

It isn't. It is not set in a mediaeval world.

 

It isn't what? Considered an adult? I don't know what part of the world you live in, but in america, a person past 21 is considered a full adult. Rand is 19 or 20. And while it isn't medieval times technically, it is practically. Knights, Wizards, swords, monsters, Steel age technology. Maybe 15 isn't the age where someone is considered an adult in this universe, if someone could offer any info on that, it'd be helpful, but it's not unreasonable for me to make that assumption. And anyway my point still stands, Rand is or is nearly an adult, he should have more maturity that simple "I DUN'T WANNA"'s.

 

Why would he mention this bird? He saw a bird, so what? It wouldn't necessarily come up. He could omit it just because it didn't seem important.

THAT. IS. MY. POINT. It DOESN'T seem important, but Moiraine should ask for a full intelligence report on ANYTHING out of the unusual. He should do this ESPECIALLY when he just learned what the dagger is and that not all is as it seems to be. A convenient lightning strike IS out of the ordinary, but nothing he doesn't consider it to have any negative connections to him, just like seeing rare bird. If he still doesn't think that watching out for anything unusual, no matter how unimportant or unconnected to his life it may seem. For all he knows, that may be a Dark One bird, and he currently know his location and he needs to move. Which is why he should tell moiraine. She knows whats up. If he hasn't learned this much after everything he went through, then he is STUPID.

 

Well that's good to hear. I love debates, too. I've just seen some people get hot-headed and it doesn't end well. It's been awhile since I've read EotW, to be honest, so I can't remember everything. I remember them getting split up at Shagar Logoth and meeting up later in Caemlyn, I assume that's what you meant.

 

I'm afraid I'll have to withdraw what I said before. Ares up there is annoying me with his condescending attitude, inability to address my arguments, thinly veiled insults, and lack of intelligence in general. I should probably rephrase what I said before. Be respectful to me, I'll be respectful to you, and the books are safe from any bitterness that may result of this debate.  ;D

 

I've been doing some skimming of the book, and I think I found some key points. Rand was feverish during much of his trip. When Rand met up with Moiraine in the Queen's Blessing, even then he's wondering is she's trustworthy, and in doing so he compares her to what he remembers of Elaida from the Palace. And I... upon more reading, a hell of a lot went down at their first meet up. From Mat being sick, to realizing trollocs and fades were gathering around the city and needing an immediate way out, to Moiraine overhearing about Rand's visit with the Queen, to the two stories about blinding the Eye of the World, followed immediately by the revelation about the shared dreams.

 

To me, it seems like it'd be pretty easy to focus on those more immediate problems instead of grilling for specifics over what Moiraine likely already has a general idea of.

 

If none of that other stuff went down, yeah, I can see her wanting to sit down and talk about things... perhaps, but she's only human, just about forty-ish years old, and she's under a quite a lot of stress in regards to figuring these things out, not to mention likely very fatigued from doing what Healing she could on Mat.

 

And, as I said, she knows they've been hunted by darkfriends and fades, but the important thing is that she has everybody again and a lot of pressing issues to deal with.

 

THIS is how you make a counter point Ares. Very good response that actually got me thinking.

 

While indeed a lot is going on, the focus on dreams and the dagger are all the more reason Moiraine should be like "Okay, truth, now. What else has happened that you haven't told me. Go over everything and leave nothing out." If they had been forced to leave immediately, then I would have bought that they simply didn't have time, but they don't even immediately go to bed after the meeting, iirc. Moraine was tired but they still took the time to talk at length about everything else, I don't see why she'd stop there. And while there were plenty of issues pressing issues, after the plan was made and it wouldn't start for a great deal of time later, that was when they should have gone over anything they missed, and this would be where Rand and Mat's jounrney come in. But even if I were to buy that they simply didn't have the time, why didn't she just ask when they DID have time? During their time in the waygate. Or if that feels too wrong in them, in their travels once they got out (I honestly wonder how they fill the silence during all that time. You can only talk to a person so much before there is simply nothing left to talk about until something significant happens). Or in that castle, where they would be perfectly safe. Your theory would be plausible if they simply NEVER had a chance to talk since they meeting, but they did. So I'm stumped as to why this is never brought up.

[Mr Ares]

No, it doesn't.

Yes it does. I didn't talk about scowling.

 

Rand has no reason to tell.

I refuse to discuss this with you if you are going to ignore arguments I've already addressed.

I addressed your arguments. You think he has reason. He doesn't.

 

Moiraine is not a soldier in a modern military.

 

No, she isn't a MODERN soldier. She's part of the unofficial Aes Sedai military in the war against the Dark one in the times of the future earth (or whereever this setting is). I addressed this. She may not be an official soldier part of a military faction, but for all intents and purposes, she is.

If she is not a osldier she won't necessarily operate as a soldier does, and Rand is certainly not a soldier and has no reason to go along with her simply because you would prefer it if he did.

 

You mean where he was given a name and a personality?

 

Martin does this through interaction. Jordan exposited it. There is a difference. I sorta addressed this.

No, you didn't.

 

No. Much is done in books that doesn't "need" to be there. The plot would be just fine without some minor detail. But it adds to a richer, more full world. Giving some detail to minor characters beyond the minimum required for the plot is a perfectly valid stylistic choice.

Not the way he did it.

Yes, the way he did it. You not happening to like it doesn't invalidate it.

This way, nothing would have stopped and the reader could have still been clued in on his hidden depths.

Of course it would have stopped. If neither provides any addition to the plot then it is stopping it.

If Jordan couldn't have done that, he should have waited until the appropriate time to introduce him.

He was introduced at the appropriate time.

 

That's pretty much it. He reappears. He has yet to have any significant impact that couldn't be managed by Random guard#2 or similar.

Come on, there has to be SOMETHING. He gives off some REALLY good lines. He gives Rand some hints to something.

No. He's a guard at an inn, then he's a guard elsewhere.

If he literally never does anything, but keeps getting mentioned as if he's significant

As if he's present, not significant.

The reader KNOWS these are real people with real personalities, but that doesn't mean your suppose exposit it if they serve no purpose.

The reader does not know. If all your background characters appear to have to life outside the story, why should people imagine one exists? If you hint that there is more to the world than just what the main characters happen to be involved in, then that is good writing, provided it doesn't detract from the story. It doesn't.

 

I may not have that much time.

I don't care if you do, but it's pretentious to the point of delusion to think you 'know' people based on appearances or first impressions.

Maybe I'm just a better judge of character than you.

 

And she is quite willing to kill them to stop the Darkfriends getting their hands on them. By her own admission. She is not helping them out of the goodness of her heart.

 

Which is why it'd be stupid to blab about things that would turn her against them. Otherwise, her mission is to protect them at all times, and to best do that she needs to know whats happened to them as much as possible. The dagger has shown what would happen if she doesn't. As far as Rand knows, the lightning is a freak incident. Hence, unless you can point out a reason why he wouldn't tell her, there is no reason why he should.

Exactly, there is no reason why he should tell her. If it was just a freak incident, why mention it? There's no reason to bring it up. You would like him to. Nothing more. He doesn't trust her and he doesn't like her. Why would he tell her more than he has to?

 

"Only a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart."

Only an idiot thinks emotion and logic oppose each other.

Or a Star Trek writer.

 

It's not an act, it's a simple fact.

OH, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were 'facting' as if they have some sort of reason to not tell moiraine these things.

You may drop the act that they do have reason to tell her if you wish.

 

...Are you actually trying to debate here

No, I'm simply pointing out the facts, where you are wrong.

If they have a reason to not tell her, then explain what it is.

I have. You don't wish to see it. I cannot help willful blindness.

 

No. Nothing like that was indicated.

Take that up with Hadilmir. He's the one who said it

He didn't say what you think he did.

 

If your only contribution to this is going to be pointing out that there could be other reasons that I missed, then you may as well stop posting.

You expect to be led by the hand?

 

It isn't. It is not set in a mediaeval world.

 

It isn't what?

Following the traditions of a mediaeval culture.

And while it isn't medieval times technically, it is practically.

No, it isn't.

Knights

No.

Wizards

I don't know what history books you've been reading...

swords

Used before and after the Middle Ages.

monsters

Again, what history books are you reading? You do realise magic isn't real? I know this might come as a shock, but neither is Father Christmas.

Steel age technology.

Printing presses, steam engines, cannons...

And anyway my point still stands, Rand is or is nearly an adult, he should have more maturity that simple "I DUN'T WANNA"'s.

You don't know many teenagers, do you?

 

Why would he mention this bird? He saw a bird, so what? It wouldn't necessarily come up. He could omit it just because it didn't seem important.

THAT. IS. MY. POINT. It DOESN'T seem important, but Moiraine should ask for a full intelligence report on ANYTHING out of the unusual.

So he should just mention anything and everything that happened to him to a person he neither likes nor trusts just on the off chance that it might seem important? She can ask till she's blue in the face, but if he doesn't want to tell her, or just doesn't consider it worth reporting, then he won't tell her.

A convenient lightning strike IS out of the ordinary, but nothing he doesn't consider it to have any negative connections to him, just like seeing rare bird.

Compare to the dagger, which most definitely does have a negative connection. So, random chance, no reason to mention. Little different to an evil dagger warping his friend's mind.

 

I'm afraid I'll have to withdraw what I said before.

How simply tragic.

Ares up there is annoying me with his condescending attitude, inability to address my arguments

As I did, this would appear to be a lie, or very poor reading skills.

thinly veiled insults

Which I must say I'm surprised you noticed.

Be respectful to me

When you deserve it, not before. Start by reading my posts properly. Or how about reading my name correctly.

 

Very good response that actually got me thinking.

I knew you had it in you.

[Elend]

I think the big thing here is that you're giving more competence to Moiraine than she has. She's only in her early 40s and the first 20 some years of her life were very sheltered. Once she entered the real world she saw more of the world than most Aes Sedai, but most Aes Sedai are nearly incompetent. They willfully disbelieve things they don't want to believe and stumble in the dark due to their pre-conceptions.

 

Also, when it comes to channeling, Moiraine went to the village explicitly looking for the Dragon. I'm not sure if EotW makes that clear or not, but she already knew one of the three could do so. She pretty much discounts Perrin after the wolf-thing and has most of her mind made up that it's Rand at the point in the story you're referring to, I think. If she knew he'd been sick it's very likely that she knew he had already channeled at that point as well.

 

On the inconsistency of character, I think they mean Rand goes from insane to do extremely awesome stuff, to doing awesome stuff while insane. He's inconsistent but inconsistent due to the insanity.

[King_Killer0]

How simply tragic. Ares up there is annoying me with his condescending attitude, inability to address my arguments. As I did, this would appear to be a lie, or very poor reading skills. Which I must say I'm surprised you noticed. When you deserve it, not before. Start by reading my posts properly. Or how about reading my name correctly.

 

Do you seriously have your head shoved THAT far up your rectum? How the hell have I not responded to your posts properly? I've made my arguments clear, given reasons, explicitly explained exactly why each character's most logical course of action would be to tell each other about certain things if they would use a nuance of common sense. The ONLY counter arguments you have given thus far in is "There is no reason for him to" and "He doesn't trust her". The first one is simply ridiculous for obvious reason's I already stated, and most other people here know that, which is why they trying to come up with actual explanation for it. And I've already answered why his lack of trust in her doesn't really apply here. Every other argument you've either ignored or said I'm wrong without ever explaining why, Otherwise, you just pull out a strawman of my arguments, so you can insult me with what you depressingly pass as wit. It's been a long while since I've seen as proud an idiot like you, with grand delusions of intellectual prowess. This post was originally the same quote each reply style that we've been dealing with, but until you prove you can construct an actual counter argument to mine, you are dirt, not worthy of the acknowledgement that I step all over you, let alone my actual time debating with you. You are dismissed.

 

I think the big thing here is that you're giving more competence to Moiraine than she has. She's only in her early 40s and the first 20 some years of her life were very sheltered. Once she entered the real world she saw more of the world than most Aes Sedai, but most Aes Sedai are nearly incompetent. They willfully disbelieve things they don't want to believe and stumble in the dark due to their pre-conceptions.

 

This isn't very difficult though. Common sense would tell you that the more information you have, the more likely you are to make the right decision, so it should be a priority to seek out all the info one can.

 

Also, when it comes to channeling, Moiraine went to the village explicitly looking for the Dragon. I'm not sure if EotW makes that clear or not, but she already knew one of the three could do so. She pretty much discounts Perrin after the wolf-thing and has most of her mind made up that it's Rand at the point in the story you're referring to, I think. If she knew he'd been sick it's very likely that she knew he had already channeled at that point as well.

 

Yes, if Mat was the dragon, the would would be doomed pretty much. Anyway, yes, I'm not sure what the implications of her finding out early would be. But it really should have happened, that it didn't use...well, sorry, but it's pure idiocy on part of both Rand and Moiraine (And I guess Mat as well, but he may not remember it). But I've stated my reasons for thinking so a hundred times. It's gone and done, and the only one dead is the Green Man and some soldiers. Not much harm done, I suppose. Hopefully, next time someone refuses to transfer vital information, they actually have an good reason.

 

On the inconsistency of character, I think they mean Rand goes from insane to do extremely awesome stuff, to doing awesome stuff while insane. He's inconsistent but inconsistent due to the insanity.

 

We'll have to ask Hadilmir. I was talking about how much I liked Perrin, so I assumed he's either talking about the quality or writing or the likability of the characters.

[Majsju]

Kids, be nice, or I will spank you.

[Elend]

As a tidbit, Mat forgets almost everything from the first book and stops acting how he has been in the second.

 

I think, now that I consider the metaphysics of the series, that it makes perfect sense that Moiraine doesn't ask. She didn't ask because she understands how ta'veren work. Essentially, knowing that the two of them were what they were, she probably figured they only survived due to lots of random incidences of luck that would get her confused as to who the Dragon actually was. Ta'veren twist chance around them so something like a bolt of lightning just appearing may not even be that unusual with one present. She knows this so doesn't even bother to ask. By not asking she essentially gets rid of all the random noise that she may have had to worry about otherwise and can just go with what she has already observed. Asking would just introduce lots of questions of "is it the Power? Or is it ta'veren?" that can't really be answered.

[silent_spectre]

OK my biggest point on your interpretation of the first book is you are making an assumption in a few key areas.  Those areas being Aes Sedai, Moraine, and that everything has to happen for a reason that makes sense to us as readers.

 

You'll learn a lot more about Aes Sedai in the rest of the series, so I'll leave that for you to worry about, but for now I'll compare it to modern politics.  They are there to influence others as they see fit and maintain their power, not necessarily for the benefit of the people, which is funny given that the term Aes Sedai in the old tongue means "Servant of All" about as funny as the term public servant being used to describe an elected official.

 

Moraine is an Aes Sedai.  Yes, she has helped them, no she isn't forthcoming with information, and yes, she could be seen with mixed emotions depending on the scene, but in the main characters situation would you blindly trust her?  I wouldn't.  Does she want to keep them alive, yes, but to what purpose?  Again more to come in the next books.

 

OK, for my last point... and I'll use your re-occurring lightning strike at Four Kings.  You have been separated from your "friends", someone who protected you sacrificed themselves for your safety while you ran.  Your friend is growing distrustful of everyone and becomes darker daily.  You are being hunted, but you don't know why...only that getting caught would be terrible, so you are constantly running, not really knowing where you are going or where you are.  You get caught in a storeroom with nowhere to run and in your mind you are thinking, what? 

 

Oh, light I've come to far now to get caught...if something would just happen to save me... you prepare to put up what fight you can, being untrained with your weapons, then, BOOM.  You pick yourself off the ground to find yourself whole of body, unharmed.  You notice the smoldering ruin where your enemies were, then you hear your friend groaning.  The groans turn into words...they can't see.  Fear triggers your flight response, as you don't know if the whole of your enemies were killed.  So you gather your friend and run into the stormy night running until exhaustion drives you to rest.  At the next town you think you are safe, but a boy comes up and tells you all about your encouter, you threaten him and leave knowing that your trail will soon be picked up again.  Soon after you get sick and delusional, your friend is still nearly blind...and even more distrustful of people.  One night you overhear a Fade talking to a man about you.  As the trap is getting ever closing to closing around you you get a ride to Caemlyn with a stranger.  Upon entering the city, you notice that that city is bursting with people from all over.  You have never seen anything larger than a town, and nothing that could be compared to a city.  You arrive at the inn that your protector has said would offer sanctuary.  You are taken in and offered aid without pay.  You meet an Ogier, a living legend from fairy tales told to you as a child.  You also go to see an historic event, the showing of a false dragon that was captured.  You see a man that is persuing you through the city and run.  After losing the man you climb a garden wall to view the procession of the false dragon and fall into the garden after being startled by a female's voice.  You are told that you are inside the palace grounds and are speaking to none other than the princess and the prince of the country.  Shortly after you are arrested and taken before the Queen and her advisers.  There the one you fear the most enters some kind of trance and argues for your arrest.  You are allowed to go free.  Upon leaving the princess tells you you are handsome.  You leave and go back to your inn, where you tell your tale to your patron, the innkeeper, and then you get a surprise that some lady is asking for you by name.  You are re-uinted with your "friends"  but then Moraine sees Mat... and is instantly repulsed by the sheer vileness rolling out of him and takes the evening warding and trying to cleanse him.  You wait in anticipation for the results, worrying about his safety.  Upon her arrival Moraine find out about you meeting Elaida, and you tell her of your dreams.  Time is short and you now must change plans and leave Caemlyn quickly.

 

Now when would you bother to tell Moraine what had happened on your journey.  You have spoken with your friends Perrin and Egwene and they too had a series of adventures.  And if you do recount your adventures what are the big parts of it.

 

Thom is dead.

You met Elaida.

You met the princess and the Queen.

Mat was sick.

All 3 of the boys had dream of Ba'alzamon.

 

The dreams cover the dark one, for now Mat is ok, you must leave immediately, and you are going via a really bad way to a really bad place. 

 

***** SPOILER ALERT FOR EOTW ENDING *****

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rand has channeled several times already by this time, he gave Bela endurance when she was carrying Egwene on the run to the ferry.  He made the mast on Domon's ship knock over a Trolloc that was about to  kill him, and he called down lightning at Four Kings to get rid of Gode and his minions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

***** End Spoiler *****

 

If none of the other odd things, which result from his being ta'veren or channeling are thought of as odd, why would that.  It was storming outside.  There is the possibility, however improbable, that it could have happened by itself.  Then there are just all the other big things that would stay in your memory and where more important at the time.

 

Just trying to put a little "in their shoes" flavor to it.  I hope you read the next few books to get a better taste of the series before deciding whether you like/dislike it.  My wife read TEotW and liked it and got bogged down in TGH during a certain traveling scene which I won't spoil for you, but she thinks Twilight is a great read, so go figure.  Anyways welcome to our community and I hope you like the little story that this board discusses.

 

 

[Agitel]

Forgive us for Mr Ares, we love him, but he tends to be a bit... er... blunt?

 

I think to some degree we'll have to agree to disagree. You're making Aes Sedai out to be far more competent than they are, though at this point in the series, that's understandable. Think of the White Tower as a bit of an Ivory Tower from which most Aes Sedai never come out of and you'll begin to get a better picture of the culture inside.  With that said, the White Tower and the Aes Sedai are not a pseudo-military organization. Moiraine is of the Blue Ajah, which is a political faction dedicated to writing wrongs in the world (and thus, probably a bit more worldly than others). The other Ajahs have different purposes, whether from pursuit of logic, to pursuit of scholarly knowledge, to legal matters, etc... etc... Only one of them is actually focused around a military like attitude, and that is not the Blue Ajah.

 

Even with that said, Moiraine likely would have attributed any odd occurrences to ta'veren nature or, though probably less likely, either Mat or Rand channeling, which, at that point, wouldn't have made much difference, as she already suspected who it was. Neither Rand, nor Mat, nor Perrin fully trust Moiraine yet, either, and she knows that, and likely accepts that they'll keep their secrets, even if incredibly frustrating. In my view it wouldn't have been as important as you're making it out to be. I don't think I can prove that to you, really, we could probably go back and forth all day. Jordan also doesn't write out much banter or conversation, though it does happen, and is mentioned to have happened from time to time.

 

As for time period on a culture and tech scale, think of an early modern period. Late 1400s to early 1500s, though this is still sort of rough and they certainly don't line up 100%.

 

As for the ages, people seem to grow up slow in the Two Rivers. It's a relatively sheltered place. All the boys still live and work for their families before they leave and haven't really had to grow up all the way. Rather than think about them having to be full grown men at an early age, it might be better to think of them as a bunch of kids just out of high school and just entering college. When put that way, you might get a better sense of their maturity level.