Min's Unfulfilled Visions (Probable Spoilers)

[shadowkiller_001]

I compiled this list on 'unfulfilled' visions for myself and I thought I would post it to see if anyone has any ideas. I don't always have the exact quotes, and i am sure that there are many more that aren't included here. just a rough list.

 

- man juggling fire - vision about Thom

- Trees flowering around Perrin

- Vision of Egwene being tied to Galad

- vision of Elayne 'a red hot iron and an axe'

- glory above all other men for Logain

- Carlinya and her Raven Tattoos

- “a bloody hand and white-hot iron...”  -- only the white hot iron part peaks my interest.

- the second time that Perrin saves Rand's life.

- the Moridin merge thing... it just seems to clear-cut to be literal though, it's so unlike RJ.

- woman dead and gone... are we sure it's moiraine? couldn't be cadsuane (everyone assumed she was dead and gone)

- what is it that Rand and the Asha'man "won't like at all" that Cadsuane teaches them.?

- what is the "odd thing" about Avhienda's 'four' babies?

- the 'dark' around Bashere... too obvious to mean 'darkfriend' i think.. but who knows?

 

 

 

any ideas?

does this thread fit somewhere else more appropriately?

 

 

 

 

[Wingendosering]

Interesting, I was thinking of making a list like this for myself as well.  You could elaborate a bit more though.  Saying 'man juggling fire' doesn't help me much without some context.  Who was the image over, when did it appear, where was the person situated when it appeared?  I can't remember when alot of these show up, and I'm sure most of them only appear after a critical decision has been made, similar to Mat's dice rolling in his head.

 

But you're missing one.  Min also sees Rand with a Beggar's staff and something else, which ties in well to one of Perrin's visions (why did he stop having those anyway)?

 

As for Aviendha's babies, it has been theorized that two will be Elayne's and two will be Aviendha's, but they both showed up over Avi's head because of the sister bond.

[Ala Rubra]

(why did he stop having those anyway)?

 

Because he stopped going to TAR.

[metaphor]

- man juggling fire - vision about Thom

- Trees flowering around Perrin

- Vision of Egwene being tied to Galad

- vision of Elayne 'a red hot iron and an axe'

- glory above all other men for Logain

- Carlinya and her Raven Tattoos

- “a bloody hand and white-hot iron...”  -- only the white hot iron part peaks my interest.

- the second time that Perrin saves Rand's life.

- the Moridin merge thing... it just seems to clear-cut to be literal though, it's so unlike RJ.

- woman dead and gone... are we sure it's moiraine? couldn't be cadsuane (everyone assumed she was dead and gone)

- what is it that Rand and the Asha'man "won't like at all" that Cadsuane teaches them.?

- what is the "odd thing" about Avhienda's 'four' babies?

- the 'dark' around Bashere... too obvious to mean 'darkfriend' i think.. but who knows?

 

- man juggling fire - vision about Thom -Tom's nephew, who juggled fire. Possibly Rand himself or Mat(they both juggle fire in some way)

- Trees flowering around Perrin Perrin's family was buried in an orchad

- glory above all other men for Logain It's coming, seeing as he's a respected leader among the asha'man and he seems to be destined to defeat Taim. Possible future M'hael?

- the second time that Perrin saves Rand's life.Maybe Tarmon gaidon?

- the Moridin merge thing... it just seems to clear-cut to be literal though, it's so unlike RJ. Yeah it's Moridin.

- what is it that Rand and the Asha'man "won't like at all" that Cadsuane teaches them.?Certainly Rand and the ther Asha'man don't like having her around, nor her methods

- what is the "odd thing" about Avhienda's 'four' babies?Possibly related to the bond all 3 share with rand, but who knows.

- woman dead and gone... are we sure it's moiraine? couldn't be cadsuane (everyone assumed she was dead and gone)Most likely Moiraine. It being Cadsuane would be majorly anticlimactic

 

I'd put those 2 together.

- vision of Elayne 'a red hot iron and an axe' It could refer to Perrin. he uses an axe, and the red hot iron can refer to him being a blacksmith. He's related to Elaine's because he's carved out a territory of Andor and is making it powerful, as well as meddling with other countries confining with Andor

- “a bloody hand and white-hot iron...”  -- only the white hot iron part peaks my interest.This could refer to both Mat(red hand) and Perrin (hot iron)

Perrin is the only one for whom an hot iron would have a significance. Maybe it'll happen in the last 2 books, but for now I can only connect it with Perrin.

[MikeRiley]

I would say the trees flowering around Perrin is just another thing linking him to the Stedding. He shows a lot of interest in that after becoming a Wolfbrother. It might not mean anything more than that.

 

Min's vision of Elayne's red hot iron and an axe can only mean Elayne will help Morgase do Perrin's laundry.

 

I'm hoping Logain's glory means he's going to be known as the Dragon after Tarmon Gaidon. Rand will go off quietly if he still lives and Logain will ride the fame and get things done with the world's unrest. Thom hints about something like this suggesting even he might be the Dragon in all the stories. (Edit:) If not the Dragon, then the future Tamyrlin after the Black and White Towers are rebuilt after Tarmon Gaidan. Assuming anybody can still channel!

 

We can be pretty sure the "woman dead and gone" is Moiraine. It can't be Cadsuane because Min would never have heard of her anyway. She did see things around Moiraine.. a lot of things, and believes her ability failed her.

 

The dark around Bashere could mean he's being manipulated by somebody. He's amassing the Legion of the Dragon too.. Maybe Demandred's touch? It doesn't necessarily make him a darkfriend, but somebody who likes to use proxies would take special interest in somebody with Bashere's responsibilities.

 

 

[yoniy0]

- man juggling fire - vision about Thom -Tom's nephew, who juggled fire. Possibly Rand himself or Mat(they both juggle fire in some way)

RJ was repeatedly asked whether Min's viewings are sometimes about a person's past/general circumstances, and he was adamant in his assertion that it is ALWAYS about one's future.

So... maybe this one is about Rand?

[alligator]

As for the trees flowering around Perrin:

 

To me, there's always been more of a connection between Perrin and the Tinkers than any other main character.  The Tinkers are looking for The Song, which is most likely the same Song that will make things grow again. So I think that Perrin will be instrumental in helping with the Song and healing the world following TG... hence the trees flowering around him.

[StefanR]

I would say the trees flowering around Perrin is just another thing linking him to the Stedding. He shows a lot of interest in that after becoming a Wolfbrother. It might not mean anything more than that.

 

Min's vision of Elayne's red hot iron and an axe can only mean Elayne will help Morgase do Perrin's laundry.

 

I'm hoping Logain's glory means he's going to be known as the Dragon after Tarmon Gaidon. Rand will go off quietly if he still lives and Logain will ride the fame and get things done with the world's unrest. Thom hints about something like this suggesting even he might be the Dragon in all the stories. (Edit:) If not the Dragon, then the future Tamyrlin after the Black and White Towers are rebuilt after Tarmon Gaidan. Assuming anybody can still channel!

 

We can be pretty sure the "woman dead and gone" is Moiraine. It can't be Cadsuane because Min would never have heard of her anyway. She did see things around Moiraine.. a lot of things, and believes her ability failed her.

 

The dark around Bashere could mean he's being manipulated by somebody. He's amassing the Legion of the Dragon too.. Maybe Demandred's touch? It doesn't necessarily make him a darkfriend, but somebody who likes to use proxies would take special interest in somebody with Bashere's responsibilities.

 

 

 

Tamirlyn was a person, not a position. I don't know where people got this idea that it was otherwise. RJ has stated that as well.

[White_star]

...

As for Aviendha's babies, it has been theorized that two will be Elayne's and two will be Aviendha's, but they both showed up over Avi's head because of the sister bond.

 

I've heard a similar theory but it was with Min she will share two of the babies.  I think Min will be unknowingly pregnant at the time Aviendha adopts her as a first sister.

[Dreamwalker]

- glory above all other men for Logain

I suspect that when the future looks back everyone will think that Logain will get all the credit (he was the last prominent false Dragon, and that will probably get muddied into him and Rand being the same guy over time). Also he'll probably be at the Last Battle and maybe he'll get all the credit for what happens there - I always tie this with Egwene's dream of Logain laughing and stepping over Rand's body on black stone - maybe Rand sacrifices himself so that Logain can strike the final blow?

 

- “a bloody hand and white-hot iron...”  -- only the white hot iron part peaks my interest.

I think the white-hot iron sounds tantalizingly like balefire - perhaps Min trying to describe an image of balefire, since at that point (tEotW) she doesn't know of such a thing. Haven't some of the descriptions of balefire referred to it looking like molten iron, or bright liquid iron, or something like that?

 

- what is the "odd thing" about Avhienda's 'four' babies?

I suspect, like some others, that perhaps two of her babies are Elayne's - I wouldn't be surprised if sister-wives adopt each other's children. My only other thought would be the other common theory I've seen thrown around, that her kids will be fathered after Rand has swapped bodies with Moridin.

 

- vision of Elayne 'a red hot iron and an axe'

Maybe they do an emergency c-section at the last battle using Perrin's axe, with the hot iron to cauterize the wounds so she doesn't bleed to death immediately! I'm mostly kidding - but only mostly  :P

 

 

 

[bronnt]

- man juggling fire - vision about Thom -Tom's nephew, who juggled fire. Possibly Rand himself or Mat(they both juggle fire in some way)

RJ was repeatedly asked whether Min's viewings are sometimes about a person's past/general circumstances, and he was adamant in his assertion that it is ALWAYS about one's future.

So... maybe this one is about Rand?

 

Time is circular in WoT, not linear.  Go far enough in one direction and events are always in the future.  :>

[bronnt]

Okay

 

1) Man juggling fire-not Thom-around Thom's head: I can't see this as anyone but his nephew Owyn, despite RJ's comments.  Maybe we'll learn something else, but I doubt it comes up.  The Owyn storyline doesn't get explained until later in the story, so it's in the future-kind of.

 

2) Carlinya's Raven tattoo-obviously, she ends up taken by the Seanchan.  She wasn't in the WT when the raid happened, so I think another battle between AS and Seanchan is forthcoming.  Unless, somehow, he was captured off screen.

 

3) Woman dead and gone: Definitely Moiraine.  Min thinks about that vision, then thinks about Moiraine like 3 sentences later in reference to the only visions that had gone wrong.  We KNOW everyone thinks Moiraine is dead, and we KNOW she's not dead.  I think people are determining this one literally-that Min knows only that there's some dead and gone woman that is key (which is crazy, when you think about it).  Instead, she sees Moiraine's importance to Rand and thinks to herself that Moiraine is dead and gone, so it's hopeless.  In her first viewings in the book, she talks about how everyone is tied together-Rand, Mat, Perrin, Lan, Egwene, Nynaeve, Thom, and Moiraine.  So it's no stretch to determine that it's the same thing she's seeing.

 

4) Egwene tied to Galad: Kod Prologue-Galad proposes making alliance with the Tower to fight the Shadow/Seanchan.  Galad leads the Whitecloaks now, so there's your connection.

 

5) Second time Perrin saves Rand's life: This is a common misquote.  There are two times that Perrin has to be there, or something very bad will happen to Rand.  Very bad.  Very very bad (Min was very insistent on this).  So it's not necessarily a rescue, or even helping Rand directly.  He might give him some advice that stops Rand from making a bad decision, or maybe events will just play out differently based entirely on the fact that Perrin is with Rand instead of somewhere else.

 

6) I think Cadsuane teaches humility to the Asha'Man, but she really could use a dose or two herself.

[FarShainMael]

I'd put those 2 together.

- vision of Elayne 'a red hot iron and an axe' It could refer to Perrin. he uses an axe, and the red hot iron can refer to him being a blacksmith. He's related to Elaine's because he's carved out a territory of Andor and is making it powerful, as well as meddling with other countries confining with Andor

- ?a bloody hand and white-hot iron...?  -- only the white hot iron part peaks my interest.This could refer to both Mat(red hand) and Perrin (hot iron)

Perrin is the only one for whom an hot iron would have a significance. Maybe it'll happen in the last 2 books, but for now I can only connect it with Perrin.

Agreed about the iron, but Perrin discarded his axe after using it to try to persuade one of the Shaido to tell him where Faile was.. by chopping a hand off.

(So he won't be doing any improvised surgery with it either  :o  )

The Wolf King now carries the Hammer.

[Aquarius]

didn't they stop the shaido from bleeding with a white-hot iron ? I'm not sure, I don't have the books...

[FarShainMael]

No, I think one of Perrin's Asha'man Healed him.

 

[TheAngryDruid]

Regarding Elayne, axe's and white hot irons.

 

For a while I thought she'd be cutting off parts of Rand's body, or some such, like in his dream. But I don't think that is the case.

 

Elayne has in her possession many Black Ajah and known Darkfriends. She also has an experienced interrogator/torturer whom I believe she expressed an interest in using.

 

I think the white hot iron refers to her using torture to get information from him (Mellar/Hanlon) and the sisters. She borrows Jaq to do so. And we all know Egwene is past questioning the BA. It will be the axe for them once Elayne gets the word from Egwene.

 

[SuperFade]

6) I think Cadsuane teaches humility to the Asha'Man, but she really could use a dose or two herself.

 

The Asha'man aren't really arrogant, per se, but they do see themselves as weapons. I think Cadsuane will teach them that there's more to life than defeating the next enemy.

[Shard]

The Second Time Perrin has to be there may have something to do with the Borderland army and their 13 Aes Sedai. Just saying people shouuld be very concerned about that number of AS traveling with a massive army. Things could go very bad indeed.

[Ozzie Mat]

The Second Time Perrin has to be there may have something to do with the Borderland army and their 13 Aes Sedai. Just saying people shouuld be very concerned about that number of AS traveling with a massive army. Things could go very bad indeed.

 

I agree with this, I could be wrong but the borderlanders army is heading south out of/through Andor and Perrin is heading north into Andor or have I got my geography messed up? So if Rand finally goes to sort out the borderlanders - gets caught again then Perrin appears to save the day.

 

EDIT - Sorry just flicked through the book and realised how far away Perrin is from Far Madding - so they wont cross paths unless Rand returns to the borderlanders now he is sane and then the ta'veren effect pulls perrin (& Galad) to him - I know its a long shot

 

 

Also may be another stupid question but are Min viewings always about the future, I know yoniy0 has posted it but I hadn't realised RJ had stated it - because she talks about seeing the seven towers and a baby in the cradle with a sword about Lan - it sounds too much like Lan as a baby, but I guess he could swear the same oath like his parents did.

 

Also Rodel Iruralde tells a story in TGS of seeing the court bard of Andor juggling, because the young Daughter-Heir enjoyed it, but in that story his apprentice throws in a illuminators 'gadget' and there is a flash of light and smoke. Now is this too literal for Mins viewing of 'Thom juggling fire'

[deathgate]

 

1) Man juggling fire-not Thom-around Thom's head: I can't see this as anyone but his nephew Owyn, despite RJ's comments.  Maybe we'll learn something else, but I doubt it comes up.  The Owyn storyline doesn't get explained until later in the story, so it's in the future-kind of.

 

 

My guess would be Mat in Finnland. Someone has to supply fire and surely Mat is the one for that. He also was a good juggler even though I don't think that part is literal. Mat will use the fire against the Finns.

[bronnt]

 

1) Man juggling fire-not Thom-around Thom's head: I can't see this as anyone but his nephew Owyn, despite RJ's comments.  Maybe we'll learn something else, but I doubt it comes up.  The Owyn storyline doesn't get explained until later in the story, so it's in the future-kind of.

 

 

My guess would be Mat in Finnland. Someone has to supply fire and surely Mat is the one for that. He also was a good juggler even though I don't think that part is literal. Mat will use the fire against the Finns.

 

Almost certainly not Mat-why would Min have said it was Mat?  She'd seen him together with everyone, so surely she'd recognize his face in one of the viewings.  It has to be a character that she wouldn't recognize.  Maybe it's Noal, but why is he even juggling?  I have a feeling we're not getting anything else on this in the last two books, and we'll be forced to admit it's Owyn.

[MikeRiley]

So you are willing to say "juggling fire" could mean channeling if it's about Owyn, but if it's not about him then it must literally mean the person is juggling? The word juggling is often used in place of multi-tasking. "You're juggling with fire" would be one way of saying you're doing some very dangerous things.

[Dreamwalker]

I think it's supposed to be Owyn, he's the driving motivation behind Thom's character at that point - it's the reason that Thom's been so protective of the boys and is trying to help them.

 

But I also still say it could possibly be Rand, and the reason she wouldn't have said right out that it was Rand (even though he's standing right there) would be that she knew it meant Rand would channel (or at least that juggling fire sounds like channeling) and so was trying to protect him. She didn't want to get him into trouble or smear his name, as a man channeling would have been a pretty bad charge to have laid against him.

 

In any case, I sort of doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer, but I think it's pretty clear that when this viewing happens in tEotW RJ was trying to point us toward it being Owyn.

[riff.freelance]

Tamirlyn was a person, not a position. I don't know where people got this idea that it was otherwise. RJ has stated that as well.

 

The issue come from "the ring of the Tamyrlin" said to have been possessed by Lews Therin Telamon. In the actual books I can't recall an exact quote. In the big ugly white book (The World of RJ's WOT mine's paperback page 31-32) in the Age of Legends chapter "Lews Therin Telamon, who was then First Among Servants, wore the ring of the Tamyrlin and summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion."

 

This leads people to infer that the title of First might have been Tamyrlin or could have been where the title Amyrlin derives it meaning.

[bronnt]

So you are willing to say "juggling fire" could mean channeling if it's about Owyn, but if it's not about him then it must literally mean the person is juggling? The word juggling is often used in place of multi-tasking. "You're juggling with fire" would be one way of saying you're doing some very dangerous things.

 

It doesn't have to mean literally juggling, but the figurative use has to be something that we can connect with later.  Owyn might not have been literally juggling fire, but the imagery is of magic, or power, which we can easily make the connection and say "Ah, he's a channeler."  He didn't juggle fire necessarily-but he could have, if a whim had taken him.  So that actual fits the imagery.

 

If we see Noal later carrying a torch when they walk into the Tower of Ghenjei, is anyone going to suddenly say "Ah-ha! There's your man juggling fire!" Of course not-it has to actual relate to something the character either does, or some event they cause.  I mean, if you want to build a house a cards, you could say Mat's already done it because he can juggle, and because he's bringing fire arms (and artillery) into the third Age.  And it fits-but it still leaves wondering what the heck that has to do with Thom.  No one sees that as fulfilling the context of the Vision.

 

If it's someone not Owyn, they don't necessarily have to juggle, but would have to SOMETHING to invoke the image of juggling, at least tenuously enough for the vision to make sense.  Maybe someone starts throwing grenades and saves Thom's life?  I just don't think so.